[Primer] Boros Burn

hoeiberg · Postby **hoeiberg** » Thu Aug 07, 2014 2:44 pm

I would advise against adding blue to the deck. It makes us less consistent and Verdict can hurt us just as much as it can hurt our enemies. If you want to run a sweeper, look into using Anger of the Gods or Mizzium Mortars. That gives us some added protection against the swarm decks while keeping our mana base intact.

What he said.

Also i don't really see what we want the sweeper for. The match-ups where sweepers are really good are already in our favor (thinking on GW and red aggro here) and vs UW (which is a hard match-up) the sweeper is totally dead. And the extra dmg you'd take from the lands would make the mirror practically unwinable.

Elricity · Postby **Elricity** » Thu Aug 07, 2014 4:22 pm

How come you get to have all the fun and I'm all mono black and GBx all damn day?
while I admit I got many many byes - I'll much rather face B Devo and BG over BW (I'll rather play UW then BW T_T).

Heh, and I'd rather face BW. The flamespeaker vs blood baron epic battle after we'd both gassed out was awesome. I should have recorded it but I forget to record my cockatrice games like a dope. It sounds like everyone is having issues with the UW match instead you. It's
still the one match I get little practice with outside of one night and a little solitaire. Woo.

Elricity · Postby **Elricity** » Thu Aug 07, 2014 5:12 pm

I know you all keep asking why I'm on flamespeaker still. Looking at the most recent meta update, the ones I don't want to use it against are MBC and Jund monsters or walkers.

So that leaves...

BW, U Dev, Rx, GW, UWx. 75% of the meta seems pretty good for a sideboard card (for my playstyle). Or, it would be good if I ever got to play more than 25% of the meta. NOT THAT I'M ANGRY ABOUT THAT OR ANYTHING!!1

BlakLanner · Postby **BlakLanner** » Thu Aug 07, 2014 5:19 pm

I am not sure that I would want it in against BW and UWx either but you know what works for you.

Elricity · Postby **Elricity** » Thu Aug 07, 2014 5:40 pm

It's a beating vs BW. Always has been.

Elricity · Postby **Elricity** » Thu Aug 07, 2014 6:32 pm

And by beating, I mean I win every game he doesn't die that turn if I don't punt like a moron*. Which so far has been every BW game I've drawn it.

I hear all these complaints about the card but I feel like I should evaluate it based on the number of wins/losses it gives me. Is that madness?

*Annoys me I have to add that disclaimer after that dumb play during SCG open. I count it as a win in the "is flamespeaker good against BW" category.

cloudscraper · Postby **cloudscraper** » Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:01 pm

I've noticed that, apart from realizing that the list is targeted at beating BW Midrange, our community has completely ignored Sperling's approach to the deck.

Considering that I'd like to start testing a Burn list for my nearest WMCQ (14 sept.), after a hiatus of 2 or 3 months from the deck, shall I just start from one of the "regular" decklists from one of the previous pages?

BlakLanner · Postby **BlakLanner** » Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:03 pm

Which part of his approach are we ignoring?

Pedros · Postby **Pedros** » Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:46 pm

Which part of his approach are we ignoring?

He is playing Seering Blood over Chains.
He cut Magma Jet for Stoke in Flames

BlakLanner · Postby **BlakLanner** » Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:52 pm

I have also cut Magma Jet and added Searing Blood as well as maxing my Stokes. I am not sure if I really miss the Jets but I like having Searing Blood back. Chains is a safety net I am not willing to do without, however.

Edit: The last list I posted was post 7160. Only change since then is -1 Mutavault, +1 Shock.

BrainsickHater · Postby **BrainsickHater** » Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:17 pm

If Jund Walkers takes off, then Sperling's list looks really good.

dauntless268 · Postby **dauntless268** » Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:15 pm

you sure? Lot's of juicy 4 cmc targets for Rakdos Return, no chains to deal with Courser...

dauntless268 · Postby **dauntless268** » Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:18 pm

Its greedy not gonna lie, it has been working rather well for me so far and it comforting to know that RDW has been running 21-22 lands with 4cc creatures for months now with 4x Fanatic of Mogis and zero scry while still scoring well in premiums and DEs.

That said, moving the 4th chain to the SB and the Temple of Malice MD would just be peachy as well (actually think I will do that for my next video)

MDU can summon up lands from the top of his deck, as we all know....

BrainsickHater · Postby **BrainsickHater** » Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:30 pm

you sure? Lot's of juicy 4 cmc targets for Rakdos Return, no chains to deal with Courser...

Rakdos's Return will always be a beating.

It's not as if there are 0 ways to deal with courser in the list, and if your opponent doesn't have it, you don't get stuck with dead cards. I playtested today against Jund Walkers and put my opponent at 4 in response to Return. I bricked on lands until I finally hit a spell...and it was Chained to the Rocks. Sperling's list is much more dedicated to sending things to the face, which is where I want to be against walkers.

BrainsickHater · Postby **BrainsickHater** » Fri Aug 08, 2014 1:10 am

Tom Ross on Electrickery in Rabble Red:
"There's no way for them to be left with any Elemental tokens if you overload it. "

Boros Charm anyone?

That said Tom Ross is a boss and I love that deck.

BlakLanner · Postby **BlakLanner** » Fri Aug 08, 2014 1:13 am

Outside of this forum, indestructible is a hidden mode of Boros Charm, much like lifelink on Azorius Charm.

NotARobot · Postby **NotARobot** » Fri Aug 08, 2014 3:03 am

YP + charm indestructible is my favorite blowout against agro decks

Probably the most satisfying play for me

pikachufan2164 · Postby **pikachufan2164** » Fri Aug 08, 2014 5:10 am

Today on CFB articles, it's Matt Sperling's Pro Tour Top 8 tournament report: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles ... 015-top-8/

Going to read through for some insight on card choices and metagaming.

Elricity · Postby **Elricity** » Fri Aug 08, 2014 5:38 am

Got my wish, 3 mono blue and one mono black after I cut hushwing. I did manage to lose a game with flamespeaker because I chained too often instead of using other removal because I got greedy for card draw. Oops. Also, a really, really, really massive misplay on the last turn where I thought I needed to burn him out when what I needed to do was control the board that turn and finish him with the phoenixes in my hand. I'll post it first so you can see.

Rhyno · Postby **Rhyno** » Fri Aug 08, 2014 5:46 am

Reckoner houses Rabblered so badly that it's actually embarrassing. I'm sticking with them for the Open, they're good enough enough matchups. Has anyone playtested them against MonoU by the way? I'd guess they'd be fine, not sure if they should come in though, I haven't tested them enough.

magicdownunder · Postby **magicdownunder** » Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:06 am

Yes... early on we were all on the Reckoner plan until the Ux transformation SB plan became big (curse you Sam

) domestication, Jace, counters + all the other horrors came in from the side.

pikachufan2164 · Postby **pikachufan2164** » Fri Aug 08, 2014 8:22 am

Warning: Local meta sideboarding ahead; take my choices with an entire shaker of salt.

Here's the deck that I'm planning to play at Game Day.
[DECK=YP$'s Value Train]
Creature (8)
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Instant (25)
4 Shock
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
4 Boros Charm
4 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix
1 Stoke the Flames

Enchantment (4)
3 Chained to the Rocks
1 Banishing Light

Land (23)
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
2 Temple of Silence
2 Battlefield Forge
11 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
3 Mizzium Mortars
3 Boros Reckoner
1 Pillar of Light
1 Chained to the Rocks
1 Banishing Light
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
3 Eidolon of the Great Revel
1 Wear / Tear
[/DECK]
Yes, I'm missing Mutavaults. That is entirely my fault, as I am a full-time student, and didn't get into Standard early enough in the block.

The local metagame is small and relatively
biased towards aggro (Rx, Wx, Gx) and midrange (Bx, BWx, Gx). There is relatively little control, but there is at least 1 Hexproof deck (possibly 2) in the mix to complicate things. I'm preparing for an open meta, as inevitably, a few people from other stores will try to get the champion playmat at the small store I play at.

Sideboard Explanations

Mortars: Good against aggro and midrange. Efficiently kills Coursers and Blood Barons.
Reckoner: Good against non-black aggro and midrange decks, as well as the mirror.
Pillar: Good against midrange. Snipes Obzedat at instant speed.
Chain: Good against midrange and aggro. Grants tempo advantages.
Banishing Light: Catch-all answer that comes in against control and midrange.
Chandra: Good against small aggro, control, and the mirror.
Eidolon: Good against control, Hexproof, and the mirror.
Wear/Tear: Utility against random enchantments (Hexproof, DSphere, etc.)

Discussion Points:

I want to put a fourth Eidolon in the sideboard, since it helps in the UWx Control, Hexproof, and mirror matchups. However, I don't know what I would cut for it.
It feels like having both Reckoner and Mortars is overdoing it, but they are both great in many matchups. I need to decide if having the additional answers to aggro is worth the sideboard space (I would consider going 4 Mortars, 0 Reckoner in favour of some number of Assembles and Pillars if I didn't need all 6 slots).
On running Jet + Chain vs. Blood + Stoke. Sperling's choice of Blood + Stoke is riskier, but more explosive. I don't think I can go without maindeck Chains due to the huge midrange creatures running around my meta.

magicdownunder · Postby **magicdownunder** » Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:56 am

The local metagame is small and relatively biased towards aggro (Rx, Wx, Gx) and midrange (Bx, BWx, Gx). There is relatively little control, but there is at least 1 Hexproof deck (possibly 2) in the mix to complicate things. I'm preparing for an open meta, as inevitably, a few people from other stores will try to get the champion playmat at the small store I play at.

If your meta is filled with aggro and midrange I would just cut the Eidolon of the Great Revel run the 2nd W/T for Aura and then fill the last two slots with either Assemble or Hushwings depending on your prefer play-style - everything else looks great vs your metagame.

- - - - -

Last Time

Standard SE Report 7357755
G1 Naya Tokens vs Rw Burn Standard SE 7357755
G2 BW Control vs Rw Burn Standard SE 7357755
G3 BW Control vs Rw Burn Standard SE 7357755

Small update
1) Currently ranked No.13 in the player of the year race (yaaay

) I believe my ceiling would be rank no.5 though I'll most likely drop back down toward top30 again once things pickup

.

2) I built a more tradition burn deck (23 lands and no dancer) which will be used in next weeks videos - the first set may be a nice watch for some because G1 was Jund Walker and G2 was Planar Cleansing UW control

NotARobot · Postby **NotARobot** » Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:53 am

MDU I never see you in the dailies, do you get there on just 8 man queues?

NotARobot · Postby **NotARobot** » Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:56 am

Also if you have time to jot down the new deck list I'd love to take a look! I'm still trying to tune my sideboard for gameday, can't say I'm a huge fan of dancers either.

magicdownunder · Postby **magicdownunder** » Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:23 am

MDU I never see you in the dailies, do you get there on just 8 man queues?

I was purely playing DE for almost a month - I don't get listed because I'm Australian and app. the Asian Pacific peek hour doesn't matter

that said for next few months I'll be just on 8-Man's again due to time constraints.

Also if you have time to jot down the new deck list I'd love to take a look! I'm still trying to tune my sideboard for gameday, can't say I'm a huge fan of dancers either.[/quote:
pnzzpysi]

[deck=MDU's Rw Burn]Lands 23
2 Battlefield Forge
8 Mountain
3 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
1 Temple of Silence
1 Temple of Malice

Creatures 08
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Young Pyromancer

Enchantments 04
4 Chained to the Rocks

Burns 25
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Shock
3 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix
2 Stoke the Flames

Sideboard 15
3 Toil // Trouble
3 Mizzium Mortars
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Flames of the Firebrand
1 Glare of Heresy
1 Wear // Tear
1 Skullcrack
1 Banishing Light
1 Pillar of Light [/deck]

Flames of the Firebrand is my nod at small aggro and bx devo, 1x Skullcrack in my SB is a nod at the diverse metagame - everything else is standard.

dauntless268 · Postby **dauntless268** » Fri Aug 08, 2014 3:08 pm

Today on CFB articles, it's Matt Sperling's Pro Tour Top 8 tournament report: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles ... 015-top-8/

Going to read through for some insight on card choices and metagaming.

Was surprised not to read James' Name in the Article, but then I don't know how close-knit the CFB community is.

What do you think of Sperling's card choices, Zem?

BrainsickHater · Postby **BrainsickHater** » Fri Aug 08, 2014 3:31 pm

Reckoner houses Rabblered so badly that it's actually embarrassing. I'm sticking with them for the Open, they're good enough enough matchups. Has anyone playtested them against MonoU by the way? I'd guess they'd be fine, not sure if they should come in though, I haven't tested them enough.

I think I'm just going to not board in Reckoners against Mono Blue. It seems unlikely that they'd board in Domestication unless they expected Reckoner, but even still, I feel like the blowout is too big to even risk it. If they grab a Reckoner it stretches our Chained to the Rocks, and if we were leaning on it to not take a million damage then we almost definitely lose that game. I think there are enough SB tools to make the matchup favorable, and
Reckoner is a huge wild card in my mind.

BlakLanner · Postby **BlakLanner** » Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:29 pm

Another deck change. I think this is what I will settle on.

[deck]Boros Burn v42[/deck]

dauntless268 · Postby **dauntless268** » Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:36 pm

Hmmm... So you're basically a few cards off Matt Sperling's list? Would be interested to hear how you like it in comparison to our more traditional build after you get some testing in...

NotARobot · Postby **NotARobot** » Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:36 pm

No chains main? I just see that getting wrecked too easily, specially vs mono black and blue.

BlakLanner · Postby **BlakLanner** » Fri Aug 08, 2014 5:05 pm

Cutting Chains was the hardest part. I had already gone off Magma Jet and was fairly content with that. I do bring them in against Black, Blue, and the bigger Green decks. Even then, they are only to fight specific cards (Demon, Master, Polukranos). I should be able to keep their devotion low enough with the extra burn to not get annhilated by Master although it will still be tough. I don't want them against the new Red decks, UW control, Jund Walkers, and only in limited quantities against BW. I expect to be playing against those decks fairly often tomorrow. Cutting the chains gives me the 4th Shock, Blood, and Helix. It did mean that I had to lose the Griff, though, and that hurts.

The prime difference between my deck and Sperling's is the sideboard where I play Toil/Trouble and don't have some of the more generic answers like Glare of Heresy. Toil/Trouble has proven to be a huge beating against both control
and Jund.

Whole · Postby **Whole** » Fri Aug 08, 2014 5:36 pm

since we're all posting lists, this is what im doing:

[deck]Creatures 8
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Spells 25
4 Shock
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
4 Skullcrack
4 Boros Charm
1 Warleader's Helix
4 Stoke the Flames

Enchantments 4
3 Chained to the Rocks
1 Banishing Light

Lands 23
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
2 Battlefield Forge
1 Temple of Malice
1 Temple of Silence
8 MountaIn
3 Mutavault

Sideboard
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
3 Toil // Trouble
1 Glare of Heresy
1 Wear // Tear
3 Searing Blood
1 Chained to the Rocks
2 Prophetic Flamespeaker
1 Pillar of Light
1 Mizzium Mortars
[/deck]

I'm too much of a pussy to go less than 4 Skullcrack maindeck and 4 exile effects maindeck even though I'd love to put 2 Searing Blood & 1 or 2 more Helix main. Anyways with the relatively open metagame right now, I like having a good bit of 1 ofs because it gives me a lot of slots
for a lot of matchups, and I like 1 ofs in general because sometimes your opponent will play around them.

It might not be correct, but if you're going 4x Exile Effects main, 1 Banishing Light in place of 1 Chained is awesome. I think the "catch-all" upside is better than the 3 mana downside, and that's why it's a 1-of anyway. I never been thrown off tempo because it's 3 mana, but I keep it as 1 because drawing 2 would be devastating.

I'm mainly looking for advice for my sideboard. I played only 3 events online since the pro tour, so I'm not entirely sure how the meta is. I've been tweaking the sideboard based on what y'all have been saying and keeping slots for the Pro Tour decks. I might be overcompensating for BW control (3 Bloods, 4 Stoke main), but it's a pretty nightmare matchup if you don't have the slots for it, and I'm really confident against any aggro deck besides certain mono blue builds.

Purp · Postby **Purp** » Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:31 pm

I don't believe less than 3 helix's is correct (2 at the least).

Chained is better than BL in the main, in G1, the "catch all" clause is not very relevant. We are either ignoring PWs in G1, or chaining a big creature.

NotARobot · Postby **NotARobot** » Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:40 pm

MDU I never see you in the dailies, do you get there on just 8 man queues?
I was purely playing DE for almost a month - I don't get listed because I'm Australian and app. the Asian Pacific peek hour doesn't matter that said for next few months I'll be just on 8-Man's again due to time constraints.

Also if you have
time to jot down the new deck list I'd love to take a look! I'm still trying to tune my sideboard for gameday, can't say I'm a huge fan of dancers either.
[deck=MDU's Rw Burn]Lands 23
2 Battlefield Forge
8 Mountain
3 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
1 Temple of Silence
1 Temple of Malice

Creatures 08
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Young Pyromancer

Enchantments 04
4 Chained to the Rocks

Burns 25
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Shock
3 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix
2 Stoke the Flames

Sideboard 15
3 Toil // Trouble
3 Mizzium Mortars
2 Flames of the Firebrand
1 Glare of Heresy
1 Wear // Tear
1 Skullcrack
1 Banishing Light
1 Pillar of Light [/deck]

Flames of the Firebrand is my nod at small aggro and bx devo, 1x Skullcrack in my SB is a nod at the diverse metagame - everything else is standard.

I'm only seeing 13 in that sideboard... are the 2 missing Chandra?

Rhyno · Postby **Rhyno** » Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:42 pm

I don't want them against the new Red decks

Buh? 1 mana removal is exactly what I want against those decks. Sure, it's sorcery speed, but it's cheap enough that you can still hold up an Instant.

BlakLanner · Postby **BlakLanner** » Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:44 pm

I would rather have more burn which I can point at him when I run him out of creatures. Topdecking a Chain when your opponent is at 2 is a very bad feeling.

Aodh · Postby **Aodh** » Fri Aug 08, 2014 8:13 pm

I would rather have more burn which I can point at him when I run him out of creatures. Topdecking a Chain when your opponent is at 2 is a very bad feeling.

If you've run him out of creatures, he's not at 2.

Elricity · Postby **Elricity** » Fri Aug 08, 2014 8:35 pm

Here's my videos from last night. I finally got my wish and played 3 mono U and looks like I was rusty from some of the sequencing I did. I'm sticking traditional because, well, it's me. I went ahead and dropped one mortar for a stoke, mostly for BW and MBC and dropped the two hushwing for 2 glare for UW and GW. I experimented with Pillar against U a couple times and concluded that was a really dumb move except for the guy who kept hitting Hall of Triumph. Bident of Thassa was really painful and I don't think I won a game where it stuck.

Deck

I sorted the playlist so that it plays from 1st game down to 4th automatically. Is that better, worse, or just doesn't matter?

Match 1 vs U Devotion. I should have dug more aggressively for chains or disenchant. Keeping a stoke was a really bad move when I had other 4 damage burn already wear was right after it to kill the bident I needed dead.

Match 2 vs U Devotion. Here, I think I show how I use Flamespeaker versus any of the "big" creature decks. In this case, it showcases how to get rid of your land pockets. Which isn't sexy but it mattered a lot.

Match 3 vs MBC. I
haven't decided yet whether I want to board in two mortar or 1 mortar/1 stoke. Pulling out the phoenix to go to 3 wasn't a good choice. People keep asking how you play the control role post board. This is how.

Don't waste any spells. Don't burn to the face until you have a phoenix to buy back or a pyromancer to make a token. Without charm or crack, you're not driving to lethal any time soon.

Use the correct removal. I let a lifebane zombie beat on me as long as I could because I really, really didn't want to use a chain on it when I could use any other removal or Chandra. As it was, I had to do it anyway due to land flood but them's the ropes. Drawing a pillar that turn that baited the demon he was holding helped.

Bait them into discarding, either with pack rat or by killing phoenixes. Shock/jet are amazing for this. You want to gas them out as
quickly as possible so that you have freedom to act more aggressively. Not a great option pre sideboard.

Don't draw 13 lands.

Be comfortable with the match going 40 minutes.

Match 4 vs U Devotion. Here, I show you how to never play against U devotion and how Flamespeaker can make you incredibly greedy to dig. If I had played smarter and not thrown away my exiles just to have mana open for the free card draw, I would have had it easily. Also, my last turn play turned a win into a loss. Oops. Back to needing to slow down.

And finally, I found out Cockatrice hosts recent replays so [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-BVY_rK10g]I pulled up the BW game that was recently in my mind and then played one against Dredge (I know, it doesn't count).[/
url]

NotARobot · Postby **NotARobot** » Fri Aug 08, 2014 8:44 pm

"I sorted the playlist so that it plays from 1st game down to 4th automatically. Is that better, worse, or just doesn't matter?"

Best way to do it IMO

Dies to Removal

[Primer] Boros Burn

Who is online