Rx Burn

[tmac]

Geist is totally sick in the mirror match.

[Toddington]

Other deck: *sides in Dragon Claw/Spellskite/etc.*
Burn deck: *sides in Geist*

Next. Level. Magic.

[Aodh]

[deck]4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Street Wraith
4 Treasure Cruise

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Shard Volley
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Bump in the Night
4 Leyline of Punishment
4 Searing Blaze

12 fetch
1 Blood Crypt
1 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Grounds
5 Mountain[/deck]?

[tmac]

52-card decks lead to some YOLO mulligans. Synergy is cute, but it seems we've got enough actual cards to cast Cruise when needed.

[Aodh]

The idea's to optimize the turn 4 goldfish frequency. Could even incorporate Manamorphose for even more cantrippiness, but would allow Delver to 1-for-1+time walk us too much.

[tmac]

Idea’s obvious, but imagine a land/land/Spike/Probe/Wraith/Manamorphose/Cruise hand vs unknown deck. Would you keep it?

[hamfactorial]

Seems like you're going to be drawing a lot of cards that aren't burn spells. Those Leylines have to go, for starters.

[Aodh]

Idea’s obvious, but imagine a land/land/Spike/Probe/Wraith/Manamorphose/Cruise hand vs unknown deck. Would you keep it?

Yes, I think so. I'll play the deck this Thursday and see if it has any merit. Of course we have enough spells to avoid the cantrip thing, but with the cantrips, our deck is literally just 36 bolts, 20 lands, 4 leylines.

Ham, Leylines can go, but basically serve as Skullcracks that you don't actually have to cast. Wanted to minimized average CMC. You're probably right that they're bad.

[Khaospawn]

Something I posted on Facebook that I think deserves some attention here:

I'd like to hear some convincing arguments from our group's Burn players on Monastery Swiftspear VS Vexing Devil.

As somebody who has played with both extensively, I find several pros and cons for each one.

Starting with Vexing Devil, I will say that he does contribute greatly to the deck's nutdraw and I have had numerous turn 3 and turn 4 wins with him. He's a pretty straightforward card, and doesn't require much sequencing aside from playing him either before or after an Eidolon, At worst, he's a 4/3 that may die immediately if the opponent has removal ( but at least that removal isn't spent on an Eidolon or a Guide). One other pro is that he has 4 power, which is VERY relevant in the format - he's able to attack into the numerous X/4 creatures in the format, such as Spellskite, Exarch, Tarmogoyf (sometimes), Baloth, Linvala, Restoration Angel, Colonnade, etc.

Swiftspear, on the other hand, requires a lot of work. Sometimes she is almost a mini-Tarmogoyf and at other times she is simply a Raging Goblin that forces you to sequence your spells all wrong in order to net a few more points of damage. She still dies to all the same removal Vexing Devil does, yet she does not contribute as frequently to the same turn 3-4 wins that Vexing Devil does. She does thrive in a mostly sorcery-speed Burn deck, utilizing Forked Bolt and Molten Rain as its backbone, but one of the greatest strengths of Burn is in its ability to play most of its spells during the opponent's turn. She is, at times, almost counter-productive to the deck. However, she DOES do a decent impression of Goblin Guide 5-8, and that's huge. Do you notice how different your games are where you open with a Guide and when you don't?

I know where I stand with my decision, but I've experienced a lot of flack for my choices in the online communities where I post. I'd like to know what you guys think. Are you going with the "popular" opinions, mostly weighted by newer players and/or less experienced Burn mages? Or are you decided by the experience of real game results? Why do you think one is better than the other? Should they BOTH be in the same deck? Tell me why. I'm legitimately curious.

____

Also, one of my comments:

"To be fair, Vexing Devil (and, I'm loathe to say it, Shard Volley) actually contribute more to the Treasure Cruise plans than Swiftie does since these cards fill up the yard quicker"

_____

Thoughts?

[LP, of the Fires]

I haven't played burn in a while, but just looking at the cards, I like the consistency of swiftspear. It's almost always gonna be worth between 1/2 damage and a card, or a lot of damage. Vexing devil on the other hand is usually 4 damage or a card with very little in between(which is fine btw). This assuming they're drawin within the first 3/4 turns. Later in the game, both cards are more variable as too what they actually will end up doing and I'm gonna neglect theorizing about it because it's just that: theorizing.

I've played exactly three games with a shit deck that had swiftspear in it and as such don't have much of any relevant playtesting experience to advocate either way.

FWIW, I'm usually fine with starting with popular opinion since results matter to me in some capacity and that's generally what popular opinion is based off of. I'll take a list and engineer from there, but the point is I'll start with the list. In the dark, a lot of my decks that I pick up start with me pulling something from online(either GP/ptq level tourney or modo) then playing games and tuning from there. If I see swiftspear or devil dominating in results, I'll start with whichever is putting up the best numbers.

[Khaospawn]

Fair enough. For me, the Devil has been crucial in some early game matches that I would never have won had I been using Swiftie.

I'm trying really hard to not blast the newer players since they're probably just now getting into Modern thanks to Swiftspear being budget friendly, but I've played probably over a hundred of matches with VD and the results don't lie. But to be fair, I have only about 30-40 matches with Swiftspear. But even then, Swiftie was also a contributing factor to me losing some games because it just did nothing at all.

[vieko]

"To be fair, Vexing Devil (and, I'm loathe to say it, Shard Volley) actually contribute more to the Treasure Cruise plans than Swiftie does since these cards fill up the yard quicker"

I can get behind the statement above.

[Khaospawn]

I actually just beat Ascendency Combo online in the first round of an 8-Man thanks to Vexing Devil and Eidolon.

[magicdownunder]

Swiftie is better arguably better on defense and attack vs burn or creature decks (esp. with TC), haste is also critical vs control decks

Devil is better during the earlier turns

Eidolon beats Ascendency Combo, VC or Swiftie just help with all our other burns

[Aodh]

How many shocklands do we need now? Can we just run 10-12 fetches plus the splash shockland(s) and call it good? I'm trying to debate how many Sacred Foundries I might ever need, and I'm not entirely sure I need any more than one.

[Khaospawn]

10/10 split on fetches and non-fetches seems to be about right. If you're gonna splash for Blue or White, I recommend 10 fetches, 4 shocks, and 6 Mountains. Just my opinion and preference.

[Aodh]

Do we really need that many sources for U and W, and is 10 fetches too conservative? Taking it up to 13 fetches and 1 shockland, we're still on 14 sources for the splash, but only 15 damage in our lands?

[Khaospawn]

Whatever. Just play it and see if you like it.

[vieko]

Just entered the modern daily with this list:

[deck=Swift Probe Burns!]
18 LAND
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Polluted Delta
2 Blood Crypt
2 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
1 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Sulfur Falls
2 Mountain

10 CREATURE
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
2 Countryside Crusher

20 BURN
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Shard Volley
4 Bump in the Night
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt

12 UTILITY
4 Manamorphose
4 Treasure Cruise
4 Gitaxian Probe

SIDEBOARD
2 Dragon’s Claw
2 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Destructive Revelry
3 Searing Blaze
3 Smash to Smithereens
3 Eidolon of the Great Revel
[/deck]

Original Discussion: http://www.reddit.com/r/spikes/comments ... re_cruise/

It has performed very well so far, let's see what happens in the next couple of hours

DE RESULTS 2-2:
Round 1 vs Merfolk – won first one easily, lost second to Spreading Seas (very close), won 3rd. with Eidolon in the mix!
Round 2 vs RW Burn – lost a close first, lost an even closer second... should note that I missed-played a lightning bolt that would've won me the game... live and learn!
Round 3 vs UR Delver – we both got down to 2 life and his top deck was better on game 1, I couldn't deal with his Dragon's Claw on game 2
Round 4 vs 8 Rack – easy peasy, won both quickly.

IMPRESSIONS
- very fast, very quick wins when not interacting with the board
- flooded (somehow) twice
- I need to work on my sequencing and take things slower to avoid mistakes like the ones that cost me Round 2 and Round 3

[magicdownunder]

Life total matters so I wouldn't run many shock lands, though you'll need to be concern about LD effects like T.edge, Karn and so on (I like running 2x personally).

@Probe burn, it seems fun but it looks like a mulling and sideboarding nightmare....

[AledM11]

Life total matters so I wouldn't run many shock lands, though you'll need to be concern about LD effects like T.edge, Karn and so on (I like running 2x personally).

@Probe burn, it seems fun but it looks like a mulling and sideboarding nightmare....

What list are you currently running MDU?

[Khaospawn]

Getting real sick and tired of playing against UR Delver and R/Cruise Burn.

At least I know that I can just safely board 4x Dragon's Claw/4x Smash to Smithereens and 4x Searing Blood against both decks...

[BlakLanner]

I agree. I am not a fan of Modern in general but it feels much worse than it has in a long time. I am going to focus on Legacy until this sorts itself out.

[Khaospawn]

I'm far from quitting Modern. In fact, I've won more packs/tickets in the last week than I have in the month prior. It's just that I'm getting bored and irritated by Treasure Cruise and Delver being everywhere. Literally, everywhere.

[BlakLanner]

I am starting to see that in Legacy as well. At least we know how to fight them.

[Khaospawn]

It's still an uphill climb at times.

[hamfactorial]

Heh, running into the same problem. Luckily I can gain all the lifes.

[hamfactorial]

If only I could hose the Treasure Cruise decks without jank like Reverberate.

[Aodh]

If only I could hose the Treasure Cruise decks without jank like Reverberate.

Embrace the jank, Ham.

[hamfactorial]

[LP, of the Fires]

Couple basic ass questions:

Swiftspear?

Choke?

Cruise?

Any of that sound good?

[tmac]

Choke chokes our Cruises, which are a bit overhyped yet awesome.

Swiftie is nice if you're used to sorcery-speed fetchless builds. Way better vs removal-dense decks than the Devil, but slower in general.

[vieko]

If only I could hose the Treasure Cruise decks without jank like Reverberate.

Embrace the jank, Ham.

Jank Embraced, Reverberate in deck, let's see what happens

[tmac]

Let's discuss post-board answers to Kor Firewalker. Dismember? Pyrite Spellbomb? Ignore and attack into him keeping two mana up?

[BlakLanner]

Rain of Gore, Skullcrack, Path to Exile

[LaZerBurn]

I'm far from quitting Modern. In fact, I've won more packs/tickets in the last week than I have in the month prior. It's just that I'm getting bored and irritated by Treasure Cruise and Delver being everywhere. Literally, everywhere.

Could you post your current 75 please Khaos?

Bribe -

[Khaospawn]

This was what I was jamming on all last week. I've been doing okay with it. I've had nights where I'll literally win back-to-back-to-back 8-Mans, and then some nights where I can barely win a Round. But the field is literally nothing but Burn, U/R, and UWR Control. At least, that's all I've been facing in the last couple weeks.

It's really heavy on the creature kill.

[deck]
Creatures 12
4 Goblin Guide
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Vexing Devil

Spells 26
2 Forked Bolt
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
1 Shard Volley
3 Searing Blood
4 Searing Blaze
4 Skullcrack
2 Flames of the Blood Hand

Land 20
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Wooded Foothills
8 Mountain
2 Stomping Ground

Sideboard 15
4 Destructive Revelry
4 Molten Rain
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Combust
3 Dragon's Claw
[/deck]

I'm probably going back to Mono Red though.

[LaZerBurn]

Thank you most kindly

[Khaospawn]

np, bud. enjoy!

[zemanjaski]

Going back a bit ~ Swiftspear is infinitely better vs. Delver than Vexing Devil which is a major consideration right now.