[Primer] UR Delver

[LP, of the Fires]

If you respect your peers, you should engage them if you disagree with them.

IMO, that'd be the adult thing to do.

[LP, of the Fires]

You've basically said, I think you're dumb and I'm not gonna tell you why which is incredibly disrespectful.

I've done similar things myself and am aiming to correct my behavior. As such, I think it's appropriate to call it out in my friends.

[Jack]

Versus decks that aren't burn, any card that only gains life is card disadvantage in its purest form. Versus card disadvantage in its purest form.dec (burn), life gain is straight up card advantage. It's as simple as that.

[zemanjaski]

You've basically said, I think you're dumb and I'm not gonna tell you why which is incredibly disrespectful.

I've done similar things myself and am aiming to correct my behavior. As such, I think it's appropriate to call it out in my friends.

I disagree. It's not like we are disagreeing over a trivial evaluation (eg: is a card good or I s it great?); instead we're coming from a position of best card in deck vs sideboard out; hich are viewpoints so far apart that duscussion is pontless. We each think the other is wrong and that's ok, there's no requirement for unity of thought.

[zemanjaski]

Played some games with Dig Through Time over Treasure Cruise; it was pretty incredible in longer games, fairly clunky in shorter games. It does have a stronger interaction with Snapcaster and can sometimes come online earlier (when used as a Fact or Fiction variant EOT) so that is worth exploring.

[Valdarith]

I like the idea of Dig Through Time in a control deck featuring Snappy and Peezy while moving away from Delver. Basically just play more actual good cards like Electrolyze, Cryptic Command, and Vendillion Clique. I've actually been thinking about Dig in Grixis Control for targetted discard and neat cards like Darkblast, but that's obviously beyond the scope of this thread.

[zemanjaski]

I think that as much as we all lament Delver sometimes; its such a critical card in making all of your MUs playable, an for switching gears quickly when you need to - that cheap aggression was the reason I switched from UR Blue Moon to Delver in the first place - Modern is certainly a format where you need to be able to put your opponent away quickly when you get ahead.

[zemanjaski]

Also, I love flipping my turn 1 Delver too much to cut him.

[Jack]

Modern is certainly a format where you need to be able to put your opponent away quickly when you get ahead.

Spot on

[Valdarith]

I agree with that assessment. It's the reason I picked up this deck and not UWR control. The format rewards being proactive.

[Sasky]

I am 100% fine with disagreeing. It's just that Valdarith's "Not sure if serious or..." came off as a little insulting considering that I have played this deck a lot and did not just throw out an idea based on theory-craft. This deck is just so dynamic and adaptive and rewards good play over running straight-up powerful cards (like jund or pod) or a straightforward engine (like storm or scapeshift). As such, there is a lot of room for manoeuvre in terms of card choice with the printing of the prowess creatures and treasure cruise. I disagree with going straight UR instead of splashing white but I'm not about to hammer it into everyone here.

As for Delver, even if you had to spend the early part of the game dropping snapcasters and cantrips and burning stuff, he's still a pretty good drop later on. I've won many games off a turn 4 or so delver when you just counter stuff and augment his damage with burn. There is a gap in creatures who are actually good in blocking flyers being played in modern atm which makes him awesome. And obviously there are the games where you go t1 delver t2 flip delver off a remand and just win. Delver is non-negotiable in this deck, just like lightning bolt and serum visions.

[zemanjaski]

I think Delver is still the best card in the deck - its just so efficient and good at almost any stage in the game. Like Sasky said, even a later Delver is great; you can deploy a threat without tapping out and still have mana for more cantrips or other stuff. So good.

[zemanjaski]

The Top 8 of the Melbourne Modern League is now 6 UR Delver and 2 RU Burn. Great format.

[zemanjaski]

My SB for the Top 8 will feature 4 Dispel and 4 Dragon's Claw.

[Valdarith]

I must say as long as UR Delver continues to be popular I really like Burn's position in the meta.

[Valdarith]

To be clear, I do not advocate cutting Delver. My comment was based on Zem testing Dig Through Time which I think belongs in a control list. I should have made that more clear.

[Mr. Metronome]

what cards do you find to be the best in the mirror? I have a pretty big split modern/standard (with top8 draft) tourney this weekend that I'm making final preparations for. I expect a lot of burn and delver, with other people playing their pet decks and representing a fairly healthy meta.

[Valdarith]

Dispel, Negate, Remand (now that Cruise is a card), Electrolyze, Spell Pierce, Bolts, Burst Lightning, Magma Spray, Electrickery, Forked Bolt.

[Valdarith]

Basically anything that interacts for one mana or is an implicit two for one.

[zemanjaski]

Yup. Also mana leak and spell Pierce are real bad; you want them out after board.

[Mr. Metronome]

what else do you usually cut in mirrors? I've been having a really hard time sideboarding in a way I'm satisfied with.

[zemanjaski]

That's it, I sideboard fairly minimally.

[LP, of the Fires]

Burn and Electrickery are pretty fucking good. The matchup is VERY grindy, but life points are just thrown away so sometimes you can burn them out while also having your burn double as efficient removal.

Electrickery also answers YP and the boys which is great.

[Nezeru]

What do you think about Dragon's Claw in the mirror? I understand the card disadvantage aspect of playing the card, and wouldn't dream of bringing in 4 copies, but if I had it in my sideboard and boarded out my Spell Pierces for 2 Dragon's Claws and something relevant, I could see it helping. I just don't know if it's good enough to warrant the inclusion.

[zemanjaski]

Pretty bad. It's a control mirror most if the time and something interactive probably gains you more life.

[Mr. Metronome]

This is the list I have registered and sleeved for my tournament on Saturday.

[deck]4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Snapcaster Mage

4 Serum Visions
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Pillar of Flame
1 Burst Lightning
1 Forked Bolt
2 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce
1 Mana Leak
4 Remand
2 Vapor Snag
1 Electrolyze
2 Treasure Cruise
1 Dig Through Time

4 Steam Vents
5 Island
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
Sideboard
2 Dispel
2 Dragon's Claw
2 Molten Rain
1 Swerve
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Combust
2 Vandalblast
1 Negate
2 Magma Spray
1 Counterflux[/deck]

I don't have a lot of time tonight to break down specific choices, but if anyone has questions/suggestions I'll respond to them.

I knew my 15th card needed to be either the 3rd Dragon's Claws or something at least passable against Burn, and my foil Swerve finally gets its chance to... shine... heh.

I wasn't sure I was going to play it, but then started thinking about what it can do.

- Swerve a lightning bolt = lightning helix.
- Abrupt Decay Jund players Goyfs.
- Make people Thoughtseize themselves.
- Swerve Remand to Swerve, so that I resolve my threat/counter their threat they were trying to remand, and get my Swerve back (on).
- Swerve a Splinter Twin to my Snapcaster/Young Pyromancer (though you deserve to lose if you go for the combo when I have mana open)
- Swerve all sorts of removal spells.
- If Cryptic is only using one targeting mode I can change that.
- Totem Armor/Rancor/Ethereal Armor
- Infects pump spells
- any spell that has a single target
- I'm sure other stuff will come up.

Basically, it's low power level but high versatility and sometimes you just need that jank one of to blow people out with

[zemanjaski]

Sygg Rivercuthroat

[Toddington]

How do the permission-light versions of Delver play out? Obviously they play more burn, but one of the draws to this deck for me is the permission element for combo matchups. Do you still have a good combo matchup by virtue of having a fast clock? The only counterspell I really like is Spell Snare, but you can't overload on that.

Speaking of counterspells, I'm not a fan of having them in the fair blue matchups. I had Spellskite in my board anyway, and was bringing it as a kind of proactive counterspell. Better than drawing Mana Leak against 10 lands in a grind, right?

[Nezeru]

Swerving Remand to Swerve does NOT give you your Swerve back. It'll be in the graveyard when Remand tries to resolve, and Remand will be countered on resolution.

As a permission-light Delver player, the combo matchup is fine. If they don't interact, they're usually dead by turn 4. Taylor Swift kills much faster than Insectile Aberration.

[Mr. Metronome]

Swerving Remand to Swerve does NOT give you your Swerve back. It'll be in the graveyard when Remand tries to resolve, and Remand will be countered on resolution.

As a permission-light Delver player, the combo matchup is fine. If they don't interact, they're usually dead by turn 4. Taylor Swift kills much faster than Insectile Aberration.

Whoops, misevaluated that situation. I actually like that more, fizzling their draw on the remand is pretty nice.

[Sasky]

How do the permission-light versions of Delver play out? Obviously they play more burn, but one of the draws to this deck for me is the permission element for combo matchups. Do you still have a good combo matchup by virtue of having a fast clock? The only counterspell I really like is Spell Snare, but you can't overload on that.

Speaking of counterspells, I'm not a fan of having them in the fair blue matchups. I had Spellskite in my board anyway, and was bringing it as a kind of proactive counterspell. Better than drawing Mana Leak against 10 lands in a grind, right?

I liked having white for Meddling Mage when running the Taylor Swift version to help with the combo matchups in the sb.

I'm going to a modern event today to win a Rebecca Guay playmat. Going to be running straight UR delver instead of UWR to try something new.

[deck]Creatures:12
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Young Pyromancer

Spells:29
2 Burst Lightning
2 Forked Bolt
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Pillar of Flame
4 Serum Visions
1 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
2 Vapor Snag
2 Mana Leak
3 Remand
1 Electrolyze
2 Dig Through Time

Lands:19
2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls

Sideboard:15
1 Dispel
2 Magma Spray
2 Vandalblast
2 Combust
2 Negate
2 Blood Moon
1 Counterflux
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Vedalken Shackles[/deck]

I'm prepared for a very open meta.

[Valdarith]

Still not sold on Cruise I see. List looks fine. A bit light on countermagic for my liking though.

[Sasky]

Thanks. I actually played cruise all the way in my uwr delver list, but I am trying out Zemanjaski's theory on DTT. I think it might be better in a list with 4 snaps.

I agree that I should increase my counterspell count. I'm already heading to the event now though so I will see how it goes.

[Sasky]

I went 4-1, ending up in 2nd place.

My rounds were:
2-0 vs Jund
2-0 vs Merfolk
2-0 vs R/w Burn
1-2 vs UR delver (swiftspear)
2-0 vs R/w Burn

I am convinced that snaps and DTT is better than cruise. Instant speed is a very big thing.

[Toddington]

I think there's two versions of UR Delver emerging here, Aggro/Burn with Swiftspear, and more similar to the old Aggro/Control with Snapcaster. I'm warming to the white splash, mainly because I want Lightning Helix. The board cards seem great too.

With regards to the aggro list, I played with Eidolon of the Great Revel out of the board, and it was pretty fantastic.

I noticed most games come down to a flurry of Cruise-powered burn spells (which is awesome), so I'm going to try a Stoke the Flames as a spell that deals more than two. Those summoning sick Elemental tokens aren't attacking (and if it's the final turn of the game win or lose), you may as well but them to good use.

[Valdarith]

The problem with going white for Helix is that the life you gain from it is offset by the pain you take from getting more shocklands untapped. If you want to splash white, Helix should be the last reason why. For the Swiftspear builds, I could see an argument for a white splash to play Path and Gods Willing (or similar) as well as Wear / Tear out of the board. You just wouldn't run soft counters due to the Path nonbo.

[Toddington]

It's not so much I want the life gain from Helix, it's just a good burn spell. Though saying that, I guess I wouldn't be running Incinerate in UR.

[Sasky]

Geist of Saint Traft is a good reason to splash white.

Path is an excellent card in modern and would be another good reason.

I wouldn't touch cards similar to god's willing as you don't have that many creatures or lands for it to be consistently useful. Boros Charm is great though.

And yeah of course lightning helix and all the sweet sideboard cards like wear//tear, timely reinforcements, meddling mage, celestial purge.

[rcwraspy]

The problem with going white for Helix is that the life you gain from it is offset by the pain you take from getting more shocklands untapped. If you want to splash white, Helix should be the last reason why. For the Swiftspear builds, I could see an argument for a white splash to play Path and Gods Willing (or similar) as well as Wear / Tear out of the board. You just wouldn't run soft counters due to the Path nonbo.

If you're NOT playing the Swiftspear build, I'd start a URw build with 4x Seachrome Coast. This greatly reduces the pain taken from fetching for colors.

[Mr. Metronome]

currently 3-0, 6-0 in games across 2 rounds of standard and 1 modern. 2 modern rounds up next, full report after the tourney