[Primer] Boros Burn

[Pedros]

Hushwing is much better if you want a proactive strategy post board. Obviously not good if you want to play a control mirror

Another deck that Hush! Is good against is mono blue/devo green vs master of the aves/nyleas disciple and reclamation sage. However vs those decks you want to play control (I assume vs green). My question is if you dont want to play Hush! Vs black would you still put it in sb to play against g and u devotion? I dont think it changes how you play as a control in sb games, however there might be no other cards to board it out from.

Btw would you sideboard Pillar of light vs blue? Killing only weird and thassa...

[zemanjaski]

I can't take duscussion where you're calling card 'Hush!' seriously.

I don't have any opinion right now, I'm not playing much standard yet. I think the card has a lot of potential.

[magicdownunder]

I wouldn't, Ux Devotion doesn't offer enough targets for pillar...

[Pedros]

I can't take duscussion where you're calling card 'Hush!' seriously.

I don't have any opinion right now, I'm not playing much standard yet. I think the card has a lot of potential.

Sorry about that, typing from tablet and writing Hushwing gryffin takes a lot of time without auto-fill. When I go near computer I will change it. I didnt want to offend you...

[zemanjaski]

I'm not offended it just looks so strange to my eyes.

[Khaospawn]

I tried Pillar as a one-of when I played against Mono U. Your only targets are Frostburn and Thassa. Both are valid threats.

Also, Hush! vs Them is the funniest thing I've read this morning.

[BrainsickHater]

@zem

I like the idea of your control mirror SB plan against mb. Does playing against a Bg version change anything for you?

Having the security and inevitability of assemble the legion is what makes the plan powerful from my perspective. What happens if Assemble is no longer an inevitable victory?

[magicdownunder]

Then you'll have another Creature/BL/CTTR which will be safe - keep in mind the only card which deals with Assemble is the charm which they'll need rather quickly.

That said with Z's set-up, chandra, pyromaster, chandra phoenixes and speaker can just as easily rob victories from Bg Devotion.

[SiRe]

I think bringing in Hushwing is still a good idea vs. Mono Black. The problem with Gray Merchant isn't the life-gain, it's the potential for large life drain to kill you. The only problem is it turns on their Lifebane Zombie, but I'd have to imagine they board that out fearing Searing Blood. Also, wouldn't you think they'd board out some amount of removal, making additional creatures better?

[Elricity]

Black is very inconsistent about what they board in and out. In the end, it does need some amount of threats and not being able to be chumped by tokens does make it a valid one.

[HK1997]

I think bringing in Hushwing is still a good idea vs. Mono Black. The problem with Gray Merchant isn't the life-gain, it's the potential for large life drain to kill you. The only problem is it turns on their Lifebane Zombie, but I'd have to imagine they board that out fearing Searing Blood. Also, wouldn't you think they'd board out some amount of removal, making additional creatures better?

The life drain is less relevant than the life gain. Bx devo does not have a lot of cards they can bring in against burn. I have yet to meet a Bx matchup where they took out LBZs post board, regardless of searing blood. They just dont have enough creatures if they start taking out their 3 drops.

Dont rely on facing stupid auto-piloting Bx devo players
anymore. Altho there are still plenty around, the good players on Modo have learned to keep in heroes downfall and save their bile blights and to save devour flesh for lifegain. It took 6 months but I think it might be known now, how to properly side vs burn

[dpaine88]

I gotta say, I love this fuckin deck and playing as a controlling deck has kinda made me want to try out control in the next set.

Would be dope if there was some Control with red like U/W/R.

Maybe its just more fun when all your answers are burn too =)


I should add I came back to MTG for for time since 7th edition in RTR. I found the RDW threat on MTGS for the first States after RTR. Got top4 with the posted list and I've been red to the core ever since!!!! Everyone here has helped me so friggen much its incredible. Shit that woulda taken me years to figure out.

[Purp]

Can't wait for the report Robot, congrats!

[dpaine88]

Ah yes, I actually forgot to add congrats into my first post.

Good job man,looking forward to your report.

[GoblinWarchief]

About the controlling post sideboard plan against mono black control : what happens if they leave in some copies of underworld connections ?

Maybe this is a dumb question, because they probably all auto-pilot sideboard it out due to life loss being bad against burn. But if they start recognizing that your plan is to grind them out, not burn them out post board, they could leave in connections. Then they have a much better card advantage than us (flamespeaker can die, chandra can die) and we must hope to remove connections with banishing light.

Actually this happened to me against a G/B midrange deck (reapers, pack rats, polukranos... don't know if it is a real deck) : I sideboarded to be in the control role, but he played connections and i died horribly to his card advantage.

[BrainsickHater]

About the controlling post sideboard plan against mono black control : what happens if they leave in some copies of underworld connections ?

Maybe this is a dumb question, because they probably all auto-pilot sideboard it out due to life loss being bad against burn. But if they start recognizing that your plan is to grind them out, not burn them out post board, they could leave in connections. Then they have a much better card advantage than us (flamespeaker can die, chandra can die) and we must hope to remove connections with banishing light.

Actually this happened to me against a G/B midrange deck (reapers, pack rats, polukranos... don't know if it is a real deck) : I sideboarded to be in the control role, but he played connections and i died
horribly to his card advantage.

This was posited to me by a fellow burn player today. It pretty much convinced me that I wasn't going to be boarding into the control role. You can probably rely on it working game 2, but by game 3 if your opponent is capable your SB plan suddenly looks very awkward.

[LP, of the Fires]

Whatever you do, just make sure you're capable of adapting. Hence why after you've learned to play a deck, you don't need a guide and should instead learn to board on the fly.

[zemanjaski]

So maybe you SB back into your game 1 shell (with some upgrades) and slay them?

It's almost like sideboarding is too complicated to be reduced to a simple "ins and outs" and players may need to think for themselves!

[BrainsickHater]

Okay, I'll bite.

By the time I hit the submit button it occurred to me I could board back into an improved game 1 deck. But I hit submit anyway because I'm trying to find reasons why boarding into a control plan isn't good.

I just don't want to board that way, it feels weird to me and I don't know if I can play well with it. But I'm worried it might be the right thing to do and I might just be choosing a strictly worse SB plan because I don't know any better.

I hate being bad.

EDIT: I'm referring specifically to the MB matchup. Boarding into a control deck in other matchups works out for me, I dig it.

[Khaospawn]

[Khaospawn]

[Khaospawn]

[Khaospawn]

Ok, I'm done now.

[locozildjiangodx]

So maybe you SB back into your game 1 shell (with some upgrades) and slay them?

It's almost like sideboarding is too complicated to be reduced to a simple "ins and outs" and players may need to think for themselves!

As a new player I can very positively say that the concept of sideboarding is not hard, the action of sideboarding (switching Card A for Card B), is not hard, but trying to anticipate an opponents choices and/or knowing WHICH Card A to switch with WHICH Card B may be hard for some (like me). Choosing an archetype you like to play is relatively easy, but fine tuning it in the wake of playing against other archetypes, not to mention newly emerging ones with a new set of cards, also may be hard. This is all common sense
stuff I am saying, but, again, as a new guy, it might be a (re)fresh look on why certain aspects of the game may come with difficulty to some.

[GoblinWarchief]

So maybe you SB back into your game 1 shell (with some upgrades) and slay them?

It's almost like sideboarding is too complicated to be reduced to a simple "ins and outs" and players may need to think for themselves!

Mine was just a consideration, i wasn't asking : what do i do if opponent leaves in connections ? i then board out x and y ?
I just think it's good to realize that a mono black player that understands your sideboard plan can next level you leaving in his suite of card advantage, in which case you need to next level him in game 3

[NotARobot]

Why does them leaving in connections change your sideboard strategy at all though? Typical monoblack players will bring in extra discard for sure, pharikas cure, possibly whips vs burn. What do we bring in? Its different for everyone, but I bring in card draw with the flamespeakers and chandra, answers to whips / demons/ erebos in banishing lights, and thats really it. I'm not worried if they leave in connections because game 1 I cant do anything about it, and game 2/3 I already have the banishing lights in anyways, which I can use on connections if I REALLY need to. But I'd rather just use it to answer whatever he plays and burn him out in the meantime... even drawing extra cards a turn, he can usually only play 1 spell a turn, its just too slow vs burn.

[NotARobot]

I forgot pillar / reprisal but you get the idea

[SiRe]

NotARobot hit the nail on the head, in my opinion. This deck catches a lot of commentary about being a 'tempo' deck, and when you think about it, most of our cards are much more mana efficient (Chained, Shock, Strike) than anything Mono Black is going to be packing. We're definitely able to take advantage of our Card Advantage engines moreso than MBD generally can because they can 'always' only play one threat/answer a turn into the very late game. I think if a sideboarding strat is good, you can leave it alone, unless you've seen they've sideboarded in an unusual way.

[Mr. Metronome]

I've just come back to this deck after focusing on modern for a while, current list is this:

[deck]3 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
2 Battlefield Forge
4 Temple of Triumph
1 Temple of Malice
1 Temple of Silence
8 Mountain

4 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix

4 Shock
3 Chained to the Rocks
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
4 Boros Charm
4 Skullcrack
1 Mizzium Mortars
1 Banishing Light
4 Warleader's Helix

Sideboard:
3 Prophetic Flamespeaker
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 Hushwing Gryff
1 Banishing Light
1 Chained to the Rocks
1 Reprisal
2 Assemble the Legion
2 Keening Apparition[/DECK]

What else should I be adding with M15? Changing the Reprisal to a Pillar of Light seems fine, and I'd like to add Stoke the Flames probably.

I successfully grinded out a few sideboard games vs Mono Black, going on the plan of bringing in card advantage after they cut theirs, and it worked well.


I successfully turn into Boros Control vs creature decks and overwhelm them with removal.

My issue comes vs UWx decks. I feel like I have to draw extraordinarily well to beat them. I've been bringing in Prophetic Flamespeaker, which if that's incorrect would be the problem, but I don't think it is. They just got consistently last breath'd, and by the time Chandra comes down they've got far better card advantage online than I do. Without Warleader's Helix there aren't enough 4 damage spells for me to kill them in time, I've found. Maybe I was using Firedrinker Satyr and Toil//Trouble as a crutch in the matchup, but it feels a lot worse than it used to.

[dpaine88]

So we have the GP coming to town this weekend (GP Boston) and I am going to run Burn in both formats!!

If Standard is anything like it has been at big events around here recently, I can expect plenty of Mono Blue, Mono Black and Monsters. Not as much control. Also as you would expect at a big event, plenty of aggro decks.

Trying to figure out a good game plan for my sideboard.

Thinking something like

[deck]
2 Chandra Pyromaster
4 Mizzium Mortors
2 Banishing Light
4 Satyr Firedancer
2 Pillar(the 4 toughness exile)
1 Spark Trooper
[/deck]

[magicdownunder]

4 Satyr Firedancer and (2 Banishing Light + 4 Mizzium Mortors + 2 Pillar of light) don't really work well together sadly.

[zemanjaski]

That's an impressive selection of cards that work poorly together.

[dpaine88]

Very true ... I was just thinking of cards individually in my head.

I think I still would like the 2 Banishing Light regardless of playing Firedrancer or not.



[deck]
2 Boros Reckoner
2 Chandra Pyromaster
2 Banishing Light
4 Satyr Firedancer
1 Spark Trooper
1 Mutavault
1 Wear/Tear
2 Assemble the Legion
[/deck]

Maybe 3 Reckoner and 0 Spark Trooper.

[Pedros]

Patric Chapins take on Burn with commentary:

Going back to the Naya-front: I wonder, is it possible that R/W Burn is supposed to consider splashing green? How much does it really cost us?

[deck]

4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Young Pyromancer

3 Mountain
3 Mana Confluence
3 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Stomping Ground
1 Temple of Abandon
4 Temple of Plenty
1 Temple of Triumph

4 Chained to the Rocks
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
2 Magma Jet
2 Searing Blood
3 Shock
4 Skullcrack
2 Stoke the Flames
4 Warleader's Helix
Sideboard
4 Mistcutter Hydra
4 Skylasher
1 Banishing Light
3 Mizzium Mortars
3 Toil[/deck]

So the theory is that we beat Black Devotion and B/W because of our burn package. By sideboarding a million pro-blue creatures, maybe we can steal enough free wins against Blue Devotion to turn the matchup around. They might also add a nice dimension
against U/W, if we should have to face one. This would hurt our aggro matchups, so it’s a calculated risk, but I kind of just want to hate out black and blue devotion decks.

Thoughts?

Also his take on "Big Burn" with commentary:

I had considered Soul of Shandalar in a R/W Burn deck, giving us more staying power against black decks. The thing is, that’s already a good matchup. Is the Soul of Shandalar doing enough elsewhere? It does require us to play more land to support it...

[deck]

4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Soul of Shandalar
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

2 Chandra, Pyromaster

10 Mountain
4 Battlefield Forge
4 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph

4 Chained to the Rocks
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
2 Stoke the Flames
4 Warleader's Helix
2 Anger of the Gods[/deck]

You might have noticed I snuck a couple Anger of the Gods in there to try to steal some free wins against aggro decks and blue devotion. It’s probably more
of a sideboard card than a maindeck one, but Soul of Shandalar does encourage us to be more of a midrange deck. Even when playing a more normal R/W Burn deck, I would definitely want access to some Anger of the Gods in my 75. It’s one of the most underrated cards in Standard in my opinion.

You know, we could just embrace the creatures, be willing to make their removal good, and pick up stuff like Young Pyromancer, Prophetic Flamespeaker, and Stormbreath Dragon.

Last sentence is similar to a RW tokens shell that was popular some time ago.

[Mr. Metronome]

I haven't found the blue match up to be all that bad, definitely not enough to warrant an otherwise pointless splash...

[Purp]

Did testing last night with Z mana base, shouta list with stoke replacing Mizzium Mortar against mono black.

SB was

[deck]3 Flamespeaker
2 Chandra
2 Pillar
2 B-Light
1 Wear
3 Mizzium Mortars
2 Assemble[/deck]

The mono B list was running NVS instead of Lifebane. -4 Skull crack -4 BC I was not a fan of, them gaining life twice (whether is 2 gary, devour fleshing or pharikas cures is pretty hard to overcome). I struggled with deciding to use 8 or 11 cards post board.

Was typically doing something like: -1 Stoke -4 BC -2 Shock -1 Jet -2 WLH -1Skullcrack +3 Flame(not sure about this card in this matchup, I have not tested it enough) +2 Pillar +2 Chandra +2 BL +2 Assemble

My opponent was doing something like: +3 Duress +2 Doom Blade +2 Cure

[zenbitz]

I think one could get a very warped view of one's matchups against MonoU if you only played a few matches. In either direction. I don't think any deck outside of UW control can beat a MonoU nut draw (I mean, that's why it's a NUT DRAW). But their meh draws are pretty hopeless against us. Postboard they bring in Jace/dispel/negate and I think it's very even. Possibly over simplifying but that's my expereince playing with/against monoU.

The really odd part... if you want to load up against blue... maybe Flames of the Firebrand and Satyr Firedancer? 2 more searing blood?

[Purp]

I think Mono U is the worst matchup. Not worst as in unwinnable (hexproof), worst in the sense that it is the one matchup that is 50/50 - 60/40. While I understand you can't be favored vs every deck, the fact that you can hedge for this deck AND still be favored vs Black/x is something worth looking into.

[Purp]

Anyone have experience vs the newer Mono Green decks? The inevitability they have seems intimidating.

[BlakLanner]

Firedancer tears them up just as badly as it does to Mono Blue.