[Primer] Boros Burn

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HK1997
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Postby HK1997 » Fri Jun 20, 2014 4:25 pm

This came up for discussion with MDU:
In G2 of the match vs UW control I had a board state that left me with a couple of options.

To be clear of what was played and in the deck, here is how I sideboarded first: +2 BL, +2 Chandra, +3 Toil/Trouble, -1 Mizzium, -3 Chains, -2 Searing Blood, -1 WLH
The thinking behind this is that I was under the impression that I am playing against a player running that SCG list with zero Dspheres and BLs, but two last breath and two syncopade maindeck. They run 4 Verdicts and 4 Cleansings maindeck so Keening becomes worse, hence I didnt need to cut an additional 2 WLH.

My opening Hand was: LS, LS, BC,YP, Muta, Mountain, Temple of silence. Pretty much perfect imo. He also kept his 7 and opened with a Guildgate.
T1 Mutavault, draw WLH.
T2 He plays a basic plains and I draw my 2nd mountain and play YP into his open mana. (I am of the opinion that the games we win against Control mostly
involve being able to resolve an early threat despite counters/removal. YOLO!)
T3 He divinates while playing a basic island. I play the temple and scry away a land I draw Chandra Pyromaster and am left with several choices I can see:

1) I BC or LS his face, tapping out and leaving a YP and token on the deck, passing into his 4th turn, having attacked with YP.
2) I leave muta and mountain untapped, attack and pass the turn.
3) I swing with both muta and YP for 4 dmg

We are both at 20 life at this point.

I chose 1. My reasoning: He was tapped out and thinking he didnt have Dspheres to draw into, that left only verdict and last breath. tho he would have to had to drawn the last breath either on his turn or with his divination. Putting up a token next to my YP and being tapped out I hoped would tempt him into tapping out as well for either jace or verdict so I could then resolve my Chandra on T4 and ride her to the win. My YP was forfeit at this point and I was on the Chandra-plan. Since he would
have to make two consecutive land drops to remove a resolved chandra with planar cleansing I knew I would have the time to tick her up AND protect her with at least one boros charm if he taps out for cleansing. So on the off chance he might actually NOT have a supreme verdict and really DIDN'T have a syncopade, and he didnt tap out for jace, this would ruin my chance to resolve chandra. So I thought: here take the damage while you are tapped out and please please please tap out to deal with my yp and token. Of which chances were reasonably high imo. Our Life being so high I was playing around a GOOD player. Say he draws last breath and has negate or was holding back syncopade. I as the control player would then seriously consider that the burn player is an impatient idiot and just wanted to use the chance to resolve a 3 dmg spell instead of swinging for 3 or holding something up. I would totally supereme verdict that board and expect something like a pheonix next turn.

Option 2: I hold up mana and swing
for 2 with YP. Now a good player that did not draw a last breath with his last 3 draws would most likely verdict here and eat a lightning bolt with the same conclusion of being tapped out for my chandra. If he HAD drawn a last breath he would still most likely verdict, expecting to eat a magma jet or lightning strike. Now if I assume he has the divine gift of being able to read my play, he could just last breath YP whenever I choose to cast a spell and decide to eat the damage, leave the token on board and still have to mana up to counter my chandra, while trying to hit his lands to be able to verdict plus counter and taking 1 dmg from token per turn. That would have been his only way of winning, the way I see it. Either way. He might even just verdict and hold back the last breath for mutavault in any real life descision.

Option 3: This just leaves YP open to be last breathed or charmed and to hold up counters, saving a verdict.

And this is how it played out: 3 dmg to face, 2 dmg from YP, 15 life,
pass the turn.

T4 supreme verdict from him and I draw temple, play mountain and chandra +1
T5 he plays temple, scries to the top and plays ram. I play temple, scry away a land and try to cast the drawn banishing light, which eats a negate :yes:
T6 he revs for 3 with me only having 1 mana open and I swing with my muta. He blocks with ram, I Chandra +1 and hit the ram, cast magma jet to kill the ram. One mana open yet again :tears:
T7 He cast divination and discards verdict. I draw a second BC, putting my hand at: WLH, BC, BC, LS, 5 untapped lands, one of them a muta. He has made his land drops so far and is at 6 lands. I swing with muta, he taps 2 of his 3 untapped for azorious charm, second main phase chandra ulti and triple toil for 18 dmg, knocking him down from 16.

I realize that on T5 I shouldnt have tried to banish the
damn ram and on T6 i shouldnt have attacked with muta to keep up BC incase of cleansing (stupid me, but he ended up not being able to cast it luckily). Here I make an effort to keep my chandra safe with BC on T6, and the damn ram had me so focused on trying to super-combo-kill it with Chandra, Muta and a little magma jet... I felt so proud when I killed it and my balls dropped to the floor when I realized I had passed into T6 without BC up and chandra at 7.... :crazy: But damn if I see a ram and a one-card-answer to it, I dont think straight and want blood :?

What would you have done? Did I overcommit to the chandra plan? Was it ok to not leave up scullcrack since I figured I had more than enough damage in hand plus a chandra ulti coming up anyways? Should I have gone with slow playing YP+ holding up boros charm? (very hard to do in
this MU imo).

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Postby Josahty » Fri Jun 20, 2014 4:47 pm

Noticed that some prefer to run 3-4 Chained and 1 Mortars main, with 0-2 Banishing in the side. I'm currently at 3 Chains and 1 Banishing main with 1 Chains, 1 Banishing, and 3 Mortars side.

Question: Aren't those Chained virtually useless game 1 vs control, other than hitting Elspeth tokens? That's why I went with a 3/1 split instead of going 4/0. Though, my meta is heavy aggro, so the 4/0 would probably still be alright most of the time.

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Postby magicdownunder » Fri Jun 20, 2014 4:50 pm

I still think playing Lighting Strike on your turn was rather wasteful (not that it matter in that round) since if he had the sweeper he would of used it either way (he was running sheep so using his sweepers earlier would of been better for him).

IMO this is the best way too beat control with burn:
you want to beat uw, you need to play more banishing light and bring in chandra, then do nothing else but cast burn spells eot and phoenix
- - - - - - - - - - -
Noticed that some prefer to run 3-4 Chained and 1 Mortars main, with 0-2 Banishing in the side. I'm currently at 3 Chains
and 1 Banishing main with 1 Chains, 1 Banishing, and 3 Mortars side.

Question: Aren't those Chained virtually useless game 1 vs control, other than hitting Elspeth tokens? That's why I went with a 3/1 split instead of going 4/0. Though, my meta is heavy aggro, so the 4/0 would probably still be alright most of the time.
They are, but it doesn't matter since control is favorable G1 (esp. the new no Dsphere version).

P.S. HK1997 you should change that Temple of Malady typo into Temple of Malice.
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Postby HK1997 » Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:42 pm

I still think playing Lighting Strike on your turn was rather wasteful (not that it matter in that round) since if he had the sweeper he would of used it either way (he was running sheep so using his sweepers earlier would of been better for him).
Ok, so what would you have done if he hadnt cast verdict? If he had gone to end step with 4 mana up. Would you have cast a lightning strike to get at least a token out of it, while baititng dissolve and a chance to resolve chandra next turn? Or would you have ridden the YP and token to victory with one BC as backup and likely small chances of resolving chandra. He had two verdicts so one BC wouldnt have cut it leaving us low on mana to cast chandra with the BC as backup that I drew on T7. If I
go for tokens plus YP his outs are multiples of verdict and cleansing or one with counter up for BC. If I go for chandra, his outs would be none, assuming I hadnt misplayed the whole ram thing and kept BC up. He was going to have one single turn to cast cleansing before I trigger -7 on chandra. And if he had, and I had kept BC up, then the game would also likely have been over. If for whatever reason my play would have stopped him from casting verdict while holding up counters, my chances would have been less (tho still high) of winning. He had the mana for verdict + counter on T6 so that second verdict he had or drew would have gone through the boros charm, leaving me to resolve chandra on T7 but still vulnerable to cleansing. I still think that playing LS when he was tapped out to put him to 15 and under higher pressure would ensure him tapping out for a response, clearing the way for a T7 kill.

If I'm going to pass on doing the 3 dmg with LS while he is tapped out, I think this would have happened,
assuming no T4 verdict. He goes to EoT with 4 mana up, I cast LS, he counters with negate. I swing with muta + yp + token on T4, keeping boros charm mana up for his turn and he azorious charms my YP or muta. I play YP and swing with token, representing skullcrack and BC. He untaps and is on 6 lands. He can now cast supreme verdict with counters up and does just that. He has a clean board, is at min 8 life. We proceed to bluff skullcrack and swing with muta putting him to 6 (best case if he didnt counter that first LS), at which point he is bound to just cast the sphinxes revelation on our upkeep for 4 and now... we cast chandra since he knows we dont have skullcrack and he is in control of the game. Or you attack with muta and boros charm him while he is tapped out, putting him to 4 and hope he isnt able to chain revs or cast that bloody ram.

Thanks for discussing this with me and noticing the typo. It's really helping to take other lines of play into heavier consideration and yet another reason to take
my time when playing and ahead.

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Postby Josahty » Fri Jun 20, 2014 6:26 pm


They are, but it doesn't matter since control is favorable G1 (esp. the new no Dsphere version).
Got it. Thank you!

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Postby Elricity » Fri Jun 20, 2014 6:42 pm

I still think playing Lighting Strike on your turn was rather wasteful (not that it matter in that round) since if he had the sweeper he would of used it either way (he was running sheep so using his sweepers earlier would of been better for him).
Ok, so what would you have done if he hadnt cast verdict? If he had gone to end step with 4 mana up. Would you have cast a lightning strike to get at least a token out of it, while baititng dissolve and a chance to resolve chandra next turn? Or would you have ridden the YP and token to victory with one BC as backup and likely small chances
of resolving chandra.
I'm confused HK, isn't that choice the same thing? Of course if he doesn't verdict turn 4, you strike him and make a token. You don't care if strike gets countered, you just want the free card and the chance to resolve Chandra. Whether he counters it or not, you have 3 power on the board bashing him down very quickly so if he wants to keep open mana while you get free lightning bolts, then that's exactly what want. You resolve Chandra when his mana is down and then he simply can't answer everything until he can planar cleansing.

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Postby HK1997 » Fri Jun 20, 2014 6:53 pm

@Elricity

I totally agree with what you are saying. Just not in this case. T3 swing with muta + YP would have netted 4 dmg, putting him to 16, leaving him to charm the YP on his T4 or just verdict it to be rid of it. If he had charmed it, he would have had negate + whatever last breath he would be bluffing and I'd have 4 mana with a muta. I wouldnt be able to swing, in fear of being time walked (i can see a control player rather casting Last breath on a muta than a yp) and then I can proceed to recast YP into a syncopade or even having it resolve again, holding up BC and SC. He is on T5 and can cast his verdict, if he drew the second that turn, or cast divintation or hold up mana for a rev. Assume he wraths. I boros charm, he doesnt have dispel. I attack next turn with YP and token and resolve a chandra, or I swing with muta for 5 total dmg and SC up. He is at 11, EoT LS, assume he doesnt counter puts him at 8, me with 6
dmg on board, he is forced to rev on my upkeep for 4, goes to 12 everything swings for 6 dmg, putting him to 6, assuming I have a BC left over I can resolve, he is at 2 life and I'm tapped out. Or you can bluff that you just drew scullcrack and hope he doesnt chain rev next turn at 4 life. Assume I cast chandra and swing for three when he revs, leaves me vulnerable yet again to cleansing and verdict.

In general, yes YP T2, swing swing and poke with SC up. Just not when I see a clear path to victory on T7, no?

I'm just argueing that having that damage resolve and putting all my eggs into chandras basket had a higher likelihood of succeeding than the YP+muta route.
LS on my turn simply had a higher likelyhood of him casting verdict instead of next-leveling me. In the end I traded one card to do 1 more point of damage. But I had all my mana planned out for the next turns until -7 anyways (the ram threw a wrench in that plan) and a lot of gas in hand. If I have only gotten 12 dmg out of the ulti, then
the Boros charm would have been enough just for the kill. There is the point of additional damage I was able to squeeze in.. Cast it now and get the dmg now and maybe additional muta or spell dmg later.. if I hadn't been jaded by the ram and put the subsequent mana to a magma jet to the face and a helix as well, then I'd have had him down further.. But I like to see it that I got one more point of damage, whilst ensuring my opponents head-shake while he casts verdict and doesnt think twice about what I might try to resolve on T4.
Last edited by HK1997 on Fri Jun 20, 2014 8:16 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Postby zenbitz » Fri Jun 20, 2014 6:59 pm

These are great examples, guys.

In the second one -- it was my sense that the main phase LS is to encourage the verdict by giving him an extra token to kill. If he knew we were holding Chandra, and he has no o-rings in his deck - the best move for him is to eat the LS and leave the creatures on the board, right? Or he can last breath/a charm YP and leave up negate/syncopate. That may buy him the time he needs to get to 6 land and verdict with countermagic up.

I thin the other play you made that is worthy of discussion is you scrying away lands #5 and 6. In almost every situation this is correct. I am not 100% certain it's correct here... since you expect to leave up BC/SC mana up indefinitely.

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Postby HK1997 » Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:07 pm

@zebitz

Thanks for pointing that out! I agree. Tho those lands were citpt'ed I maybe should have kept them, but I wanted to get gas to cast every turn in the first place since WLH wasnt going to do the job.
The game state was this. Resolve Chandra on t4 and you most likely win if you can manage to do some damage in the meantime. And I assumed he would counter everything once he untapped until I ulti. Maximizing every chance of doing more damage in the next 3 turns was my priority. Sure it's a ls for one dmg, but it ensured verdict and I had plenty of cards left to cast once it was over.

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Postby Rhyno » Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:45 pm

Question for you MDU: Did you post your thoughts on having 4 EotgR in the board with Pyromancer builds? I'm curious because I'm trying to put a meta specific deck together and I think I really want access to them. Did you find that they just weren't strong enough or that it made your board less cohesive?

If you already talked about it in this thread somewhere and I missed it just let me know and I'll find it. I just know you had them and now you don't but I can't find comments on it.

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Postby Rhyno » Fri Jun 20, 2014 8:52 pm

This is what I'm sitting on for Saturday.
My decks to beat, in this order, are:
WUx Control
Jund
Bx Devotion
Burn

[deck]
Creatures
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Other Spells
4 Shock
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
4 Skullcrack
4 Boros Charm
4 Warleader's Helix
1 Searing Blood

3 Chained to the Rocks
1 Banishing Light

Lands
8 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Mutavault
1 Temple of Silence
2 Mana Confluence

Sideboard
3 Nyx-Fleece Ram
2 Chandra Pyromaster
4 Firedrinker Satyr
6 Flex Slots
[/deck]

The greedy mana base is the result of Control being my #1 deck to beat.
2 Mana Confluence gives me 4 Mutavaults, 11 white sources, and 14 untapped red sources.

The flex slot will be some number of reactive spells including Mortars, Wear//Tear, Apparition, CttR, and Reprisal based on what I see the morning of the event.

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Postby HK1997 » Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:01 pm

@rhyno

I would go with MDU's mana base as it has worked for me unchanged for months now. Confluence I'm very queesy about playing. Also I think an ultra defensive card like ram has no place in a deck 75 trying to do damage to the board or the opponent... what do you need three for anyways? I would 100% consider bringing in the 4th chained and maybe a second BL if you are gunning for control and bx devotion. Drinkers are fine vs uw and also bx on the play. Why the single searing blood in the main when you likely board it out vs your top 3? Love the Chandras.

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Postby Elricity » Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:41 pm

@Elricity

I totally agree with what you are saying. Just not in this case. T3 swing with muta + YP would have netted 4 dmg, putting him to 16, leaving him to charm the YP on his T4 or just verdict it to be rid of it. If he had charmed it, he would have had negate + whatever last breath he would be bluffing and I'd have 4 mana with a muta.
You'd also have 1-2 elemental tokens depending on how you played it. The key reason your line of play was bad was you denied yourself that wide open opportunity.

I fully get that you were trying to waste cards in hand and a favorable board state just to force Chandra down. And what we're trying to tell you is "don't do that". Particularly when your opponent's answer can be "play 2 lands,
sweep you?" against a guy who just cast divination.

Stop trying to be clever and just kill the son of a bitch.

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Postby HK1997 » Sat Jun 21, 2014 12:19 am

You'd also have 1-2 elemental tokens depending on how you played it. The key reason your line of play was bad was you denied yourself that wide open opportunity.

I fully get that you were trying to waste cards in hand and a favorable board state just to force Chandra down. And what we're trying to tell you is "don't do that". Particularly when your opponent's answer can be "play 2 lands, sweep you?" against a guy who just cast divination.

Stop trying to be clever and just kill the son of a bitch.
I get that and I considered that line for a while (albeit not in such detail) and thought that the denied "opportinuty" was not as solid as going in on maximizing damage with the avaiable mana the next three turns.
"play 2 lands sweep you" - I dont get it. I conceded to my mistakes of basically tapping out later T5 and T6, but thats not what the topic is now is it?
You are trying to convince me of something without showing me the line of play that would make your line more favorable vs. my line if you assume sweepers are incoming within the next three turns. I agree with holding back or swinging with mutas in all cases, except here in this board state when I know pretty much exactly what I'm going to play the next three turns with my mana, and despite what his answers will be, I should be ok. If I had trusted in that and not gotten distracted by the ram, this would have even more so been the case.

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Postby magicdownunder » Sat Jun 21, 2014 2:13 am

This is what I'm sitting on for Saturday.
My decks to beat, in this order, are:
WUx Control
Jund
Bx Devotion
Burn

[deck]
Creatures
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Other Spells
4 Shock
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
4 Skullcrack
4 Boros Charm
4 Warleader's Helix
1 Searing Blood

3 Chained to the Rocks
1 Banishing Light

Lands
8 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Mutavault
1 Temple of Silence
2 Mana Confluence

Sideboard
3 Nyx-Fleece Ram
2 Chandra Pyromaster
4 Firedrinker Satyr
6 Flex Slots
[/deck]

The greedy mana base is the result of Control being my #1 deck to beat.
2 Mana Confluence gives me 4 Mutavaults, 11 white sources, and 14 untapped red sources.

The flex slot will be some number of reactive
spells including Mortars, Wear//Tear, Apparition, CttR, and Reprisal based on what I see the morning of the event.
1) The Manabase if Control is your most common MU then, I agree running 4x Mutavault is a good idea HOWEVER running 4x Mutavault + 1x Temple of Silence in a 23 land deck which requires [mana]RR[/mana] is being much too greedy so I recommend deciding if you prefer 4x Vaults + 1x Gates or 3x Vaults + 1x Temple and Gate.

2) The Sideboard:
Vs Control
I personally dislike Firedrinker Satyr since he gets outclassed after T3, so I recommend either [card]Toil // Trouble[/card] or/and Eidolon of the Great Revel - if you do have room and you really hate that MU running both has served me really well (you can also try Keening Apparition in this slot but I think the no Dshpere version will be the top UW list because of Jund and Junk).
n
Other card which you may want to include in this MU are Glare of Heresy, Keening Apparition and Banishing Light
Vs Jund
You'll want some sort of permanent removal here like Mizzium Mortars, CttR, Reprisal and/or Fated Conflagration just mix and match your numbers

Vs Bx Devotion
Reprisal, BL and CttR are you friends here while you attempt too either burn over the top or control the game until you finish with Chandra, Pyromaster

Vs Burn
Its a control Mirror, treat it as such and you should win (you can run Eidolon of the Great Revel, Wild Ricochet or Nyx-Fleece Ram as sliverbullets if you REALLY want too, except I honestly believe you need space for the harder MUs like Jund).
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Postby BrainsickHater » Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:36 am


You'd also have 1-2 elemental tokens depending on how you played it. The key reason your line of play was bad was you denied yourself that wide open opportunity.

I fully get that you were trying to waste cards in hand and a favorable board state just to force Chandra down. And what we're trying to tell you is "don't do that". Particularly when your opponent's answer can be "play 2 lands, sweep you?" against a guy who just cast divination.

Stop trying to be clever and just kill the son of a bitch.
Isn't HK holding up Boros Charm (which he has two of) to guarantee that getting sweeped isn't a possibility?

Sure he made mistakes and tapped out, but that doesn't mean the line was bad.

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Postby Rhyno » Sat Jun 21, 2014 4:12 am

@magicdownunder,

Thanks for the comments.

[s:39sgt0u6]So my mana base compared to yours is:
-1 Temple of Malice
-2 Boros Guildgate
+2 Mana Confluence
+1 Mutavault

Which sacrifices life and 1 red source for a Mutavault and 2 untapped red sources.
I believe I need the untapped red sources to cast Satyr against control.
Do you really think 18 vs 19 red sources is that greedy? The Searing Blood isn't a crucial T2 play and I might drop it for a second Banishing Light.
Basically my big issue here is the untapped red sources for the Satyrs which I'm assuming you think isn't worth it?[/s:39sgt0u6]

EDIT: I'm not sure how I got confused over the mana here. I'll cut the Temple for a Guildgate, I agree that the extra red source is worth losing the scry.

As far as the Firedrinker Satyrs against Control and Bx, I really honestly do think they're better than Toil//Trouble.
They're more reliable,
require an answer, and dodge Thoughtseize and Duress. It's worth noting that I'm leaning towards the very aggressive strategy against control, choking them out has always worked better for me than playing a slower game.

I agree with your other assessments, I'll replace the Searing Blood with a 7th card that would be in the 6 slots I'm leaving open. Probably a BL, CttR or MM. As far as those Rams go, yes, I do want a silver bullet in the mirror match tomorrow. I expect to play it at least once or twice and I expect it will be an Eidolon version. I feel that the matchup against the Eidolon version is way too high variance without a big edge. Secondarily the Rams come in against other aggro decks that I'm not going out of my way to beat but it's a bonus.

@HK1997, you're right about the Searing Blood. I'm not going out of my way to beat anything it's good against. I will swap it out for an answer to my top 3 if the meta looks like what I expect.

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Postby Rhyno » Sat Jun 21, 2014 4:35 am

On an unrelated note, in the 13 sanctioned matches I played on paper this week I fused Wear//Tear THREE TIMES which is a ton.

The #1 highlight was against Mono Black Aggro.

I had a Pyromancer with 1 token. He had Hall of Triumph, Gnarled Scarhide, and Tormented Hero bestowed with Spiteful Returned.
I let him swing and get his Spiteful Returned trigger in so I could fuse Wear//Tear killing the Returned and the Hall, then blocking both creatures with 1/1 tokens. The value.

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Postby Nezeru » Sat Jun 21, 2014 4:52 am

After seeing the GP Chicago grinder metagame today, I actually decided to add 2 Searing Blood because of all of the aggressive red strategies, also at the recommendation of a good Jund Monsters playtest partner who has won an SCG Open with Monsters, an IQ and some other events. It's actually good against them when combined with Shock as it represents an easier way to deal with Stormbreath, while Banishing Light and Chained to the Rocks don't touch that card. With that in mind, I don't want more than three dead cards against Stormbreath considering how that card is the only way I ever lose to Jund anyway.

Here's the list I'm registering:

[deck]
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Young Pyromancer

3 Chained to the Rocks
1 Mizzium Mortars

2 Searing Blood
3 Shock
4 Boros Charm
4 Skullcrack
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
4 Warleader's Helix

1 Mana Confluence
1 Boros Guildgate
1 Temple of Silence
1 Temple of
Malice
3 Mutavault
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Sacred Foundry
8 Mountain

Sideboard
4 Toil // Trouble
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Banishing Light
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Fated Conflagration
1 Wear // Tear
1 Chained to the Rocks
1 Reprisal
1 Mutavault
[/deck]

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Postby Whole » Sat Jun 21, 2014 4:21 pm

So I'm playing the burn mirror and this guy brings in Spark Trooper (saw it game 2). We're on game 3. My hand is Shock, Chained to the Rocks, Lightning Strike, Skullcrack and Chandra's Phoenix. I have 5 lands untapped, he has 4 untapped (all fixing is met). We're both at 16 life. I play Phoenix, attack, pass. He casts Warleader's Helix me into Skullcrack mana. This is very odd, and looking back on it, he never Helixed into open mana before. So I predict he is baiting a Skullcrack so he can Spark Trooper me next turn. But then the thought also comes to my mind that he has two Helix and figured he'll at least try to resolve 1. Do you just throw out the Skullcrack or play around Spark Trooper?
My line of play
I threw cast Skullcrack in response. Untap, Spark Trooper. I lose shortly after. (I go to 6 from Trooper, untap, Strike x2).

If I recall correctly, my thinking was that playing around
Spark Trooper would be too tight and I would let him get free life if he was bluffing. And I figured that if he was just trying to Helix twice, the first one going off would make him not feel the need to cast his second, and he would hold it until needed or if Skullcrack mana would be open.

Thinking about it after, if he was just trying to Helix twice, would no Skullcrack on the first make him Helix me on my next upkeep (or his main phase if he is excited) under the assumption that there is little risk because he gained 4 already and that I would've simply Skullcracked the first.
Also, is Boros Reckoner good in the mirror? Seems like he will will eat a Lightning Strike and shoot it back at them...but I guess that is better than tying up your mana in Phoenix shenanigans?
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Postby NotARobot » Sat Jun 21, 2014 6:14 pm

If I had seen sparktrooper game two, I probably wouldnt tap out on my own turn, especially with a shock in hand.. Its a tough call for sure though. I bring in reckoner for the mirror now running shouta's list, its performed well in the mirror for me.

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Postby Lightning_Dolt » Sat Jun 21, 2014 7:44 pm

So I'm playing the burn mirror and this guy brings in Spark Trooper (saw it game 2). We're on game 3. My hand is Shock, Chained to the Rocks, Lightning Strike, Skullcrack and Chandra's Phoenix. I have 5 lands untapped, he has 4 untapped (all fixing is met). We're both at 16 life. I play Phoenix, attack, pass. He casts Warleader's Helix me into Skullcrack mana. This is very odd, and looking back on it, he never Helixed into open mana before. So I predict he is baiting a Skullcrack so he can Spark Trooper me next turn. But then the thought also comes to my mind that he has two Helix and figured he'll at least try to resolve 1. Do you just throw out the Skullcrack or play around Spark Trooper?
My line of play
I threw cast Skullcrack in response.
Untap, Spark Trooper. I lose shortly after. (I go to 6 from Trooper, untap, Strike x2).

If I recall correctly, my thinking was that playing around Spark Trooper would be too tight and I would let him get free life if he was bluffing. And I figured that if he was just trying to Helix twice, the first one going off would make him not feel the need to cast his second, and he would hold it until needed or if Skullcrack mana would be open.

Thinking about it after, if he was just trying to Helix twice, would no Skullcrack on the first make him Helix me on my next upkeep (or his main phase if he is excited) under the assumption that there is little risk because he gained 4 already and that I would've simply Skullcracked the first.
Also, is Boros Reckoner good in the mirror? Seems like he will will eat a Lightning Strike and shoot it back at them...but I guess that is better than tying up your mana in Phoenix shenanigans?
I
agree with your line. You played around the card you knew he had rather than one he might have. Either way that sequence was really bad for you. I think you played to outs correctly.

On Reckoner: best case scenario is they strike it. Worse case is they chain it. How good it is depends on whether your opponents side out their chains or not.

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Postby Nezeru » Sat Jun 21, 2014 8:12 pm

3-0 in the GP, one bye, won 2-0 Jund Monsters through 2 Nylea's Disciple and 2-0 BW through a t2 Ram, double thoughtseize, sin collector and Duress.

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Postby NotARobot » Sat Jun 21, 2014 8:28 pm

"and 2-0 BW through a t2 Ram, double thoughtseize, sin collector and Duress."

o_o

Talk about worst fears haha

Nicely done!

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Postby Nezeru » Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:27 pm

Just lost 0-2 to Br devo. Double demon gray merchant g1, triple merchant g2. Also got rakdos's returned. At two points in g2 I had him at 1, and if I drew a Mana Confluence or burn on the last turn after the 3rd merchant I would win. He out drew me but I almost could race triple merchant. This burn deck is too good!

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Postby Rhyno » Sun Jun 22, 2014 1:34 am

Turnout at the IQ was small, 6 rounds only. Started 3-0, lost 2 and ended 4-2. 10th place. Bleh.
Was not expecting to write anything about it so I didn't take notes but I'll post some.

Meta was as expected except almost no burn, so I cut the Rams from my board. Ended up running very similar to Zem and MDU's list.
Lots of Jund was there but I didn't get to play it once.

[deck]
Creatures
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Other Spells
4 Shock
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
4 Skullcrack
4 Boros Charm
4 Warleader's Helix
1 Mizzium Mortars

3 Chained to the Rocks
1 Banishing Light

Lands
8 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Mutavault
1 Boros Guildgate
1 Temple of Silence
1 Mana Confluence

Sideboard
2 Chandra Pyromaster
4 Toil/Trouble
3 Mizzium Mortars
1 Chained to the Rocks
1 Banishing Light
3 Wear/Tear
1 Wild Ricochet
[/deck]

I'll do a little report

0-0
nMono Blue Devotion (2-1)
I specifically didn't prep for this matchup because I don't expect it to be bad or popular.
Game 1: On the draw, burned out his creatures leaving him with a Frostburn Weird after a CttR on Master. Phoenix Beats and burn closed it out from there.

+1 CttR
+3 MM
-4 Skullcrack

Game 2: Classic example of his mana screw vs. my flood. He was missing landrops and I was drawing too many, I needed to close it out early because I knew I didn't have inevitability here. I used CttR early on a Specter and Frostburn Weird to clear a path for my Mutavault and got him to a virtual 4 but bricked on lands and died to a huge 2xMoW having already used the chains.

Game 3: Kept his board clear again while jamming with YP and friends resulting in a MoW for 1 with Temple of Triumph out. He stabilized but couldn't attack thanks to the token army but I eventually drew a Lightning Strike.
Also on T4 I swung with a Mutavault, Pyromancer and a Token leaving up RR, he animated Mutavault
leaving up blue and blocked the token. I didn't burn it when he animated it fearing Rapid Hybridization. I'm unsure if I made the right play here.
Burning it before blockers gives him a 3/3 to block with, but I think it's still worth swinging and letting him eat a token if he has it. There's no way he'd risk animating it without Hybridization right?

1-0
BWR (2-0)
I've seen this build before a few times, notable threats are BBoV, Obzedat, Elspeth, DD, Rakdos's Return. It's an easy matchup.
Game 1: On the draw, smashed him with Mutavault thanks to the clunky mana base (and his T4 Mana Confluence)
I'm stuck with 3 Boros Charms in hand and no white source, I skullcrack his BBoV and win anyway. He grumbled about "mono Red aggro" which gave me a chuckle.

It took me a while to board here because this wasn't a common deck, and I didn't write it down. I believe it was simply
- 1 Banishing Light
- 1 Warleader's Helix
+2 MM (Stormbreath and BBoV)

I wasn't expecting Whip so I
didn't bring in Wear/Tear.
He grumbled about "mono red aggro" so I expected him to keep Dreadbores (which I didn't see yet) and Hero's Downfall so I kept benched Chandra.

Game 2: Drew no skullcracks but beatdown with Vault + Phoenix. He resolved BBoV and I untapped and hit him for 9 for game.

2-0
Esper Control (2-1)
One of the matchups I went out of my way to prepare for.
Game 1: Pyromancer gets thoughtseized, I jam hard with Mutavault until he's threatening removal. He Revs for 3 at my EoT which I Skullcrack, then I burn him out through counters.

Game 2: The funny one.
I Wear/Tear his T2 Ram and he lands Jace on T4. Based on my hand I don't expect to kill Jace and still win so I let it tick up and try to get there with Phoenix and burn.
He adds an Elspeth to the mix, but is running low on cards. Jace hits 8, I cast Chandra to ping Jace, Chandra gets hit by Hero's Downfall on his turn.

So here's the board state: Jace at 8, Chandra at 6, he has no cards, I have 2
Skullcrack, 1 Helix, and 5 lands in play. Also I have 1 elemental against an army of tokens.
I figure I'm dead in 2 turns so I figure the Jace ult cannot actually change the game at all, and I have lethal in hand.
I pass turn, Skullcrack him on upkeep. He ults Jace anyway.
My deck is garbage and he gets a Pyromancer (Jet was his best bet I think)
I sweat while he digs through his deck hoping I was right about him not having an Elixer (Esper.) He gets AEtherling.
I Skullcrack him, untap, Helix, but his 1 draw was a Dispel. I was sad that I showed him my entire deck but it was worth a risk.

Game 3:
Drew 2 Mutavaults, got to Trouble for 6 (I'm positive he left a Dispel up here.) Wear/Tear on first Ram, beat past second ram, killed him when he had to tap out for Rev.

3-0
Mono-Green Devotion...? (0-2)
Game 1:
On the draw, he plays a T2 Witchstalker, I'm ready start G2 with enchantment removal.
But it turns out he's actually just Mono Green, so I race him. I have to use my Skullcrack to
set up lethal next turn. I thought this was fine because he wasn't on Auras.
He casts Nylea's Disciple (maindeck) and I lose the race.
Had no idea how to board here, but the 3 cards I didn’t see that I figured he had to have were Scooze, Courser, and maybe Bow. Brought out Shocks because it didn’t kill anything I saw yet.
+3 Mizzium Mortars
+1 Chained to the Rocks
+2 Wear/Tear
-3 Boros Charm
-2 Shock


Game 2:
Stuck on 2 lands, he ramps into Sylvan Primordial and kills one. I consider new hobbies.
In retrospect I really just needed to hit Pyromancer in this matchup. Frustrating.


3-1
Mono Black Devotion
Game 1: Thoughtseize takes Pyromancer, I zap two Pack Rats and CttR his Demon, but then die to a 3rd rat followed by Gray Merchants.
Game 2: Beat with Mutavault and Phoenix, but could only cast Trouble for 4. Had the Skullcrack for Merchant, won.
Game 3: Mull to 5, CttR, CttR, Lighting Strike, Temple, Mutavault. Strike gets seized and I die to Packrat beatdown.
Trouble disappointed
me in this matchup as I expected it would. I’d rather have Satyrs here.

3-2
Bant Control (2-0)
Game 1: Beat down with Phoenix, Mutavault, and Pyromancer army thanks to light removal.
I wanted all the Enchantment removal possible here (Ram, Courser, D-Sphere, BL) but I also expected Thune. CttR answers those 3 cretures, but Mortars kills them for good.

+1 Mortars
+3 Wear/Tear
+1 Banishing Light
-2 CttR
-3 Helix

Game 2:
Uneventful, had answers for 2 Rams and a Courser. He ended up with 2 Coursers but missed the 2nd land drop after that, I had 2 Phoenix and clocked him.

4-2 (10th)

Thoughts:
I audibled to Toil/Trouble instead of my Satyr plan. It was fine against control but trash against MBD. Is bringing it in here just wrong?
Pyromancer treated me well. I will be running it over the Eidolon versions at big events I think.
People are very good at almost-but-then-not missing their Ram triggers.
I really, really like the 4th Mutavault. I'll keep it until the 1 Mana Confluence
destroys me.

Best part:
I am a huge Kristen Plescow fan and I collect her mats.
There was one I was going to buy that was a prize for SCG Open Trials a while ago, my partner ended up getting it as a door prize and I hassled him into giving it to me.
Last edited by Rhyno on Sun Jun 22, 2014 1:38 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby magicdownunder » Sun Jun 22, 2014 1:36 am

You shouldn't board in T//T vs Bx Devotion (or any discard deck for that matter).

With your list vs Mono Black Devotion I'll just cut 3x Shock and 1x MM for 2x CPM, 1x CttR, 1x BL and just grind them out via CPM or burn over the top (which is what I've been doing in my videos as well).
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Postby Rhyno » Sun Jun 22, 2014 1:39 am

You shouldn't board in T//T vs Bx Devotion (or any discard deck for that matter).
I did have a mistake there in that I only had it in on the play (did not cast it game 3, didn't have it in.)
I was split on bringing it in, I figured it could be fine on the play but yeah, I was wrong.

I'll try your suggestion either before or after the plan I posted yesterday.

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Postby magicdownunder » Sun Jun 22, 2014 1:42 am

Its not HORRIBLE on the play, but you can do better with most of your other spells.
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Postby Rhyno » Sun Jun 22, 2014 1:50 am

I'm trying to remember what I pulled out now to figure out how badly I crippled myself. Though ironically that was the 1 game I won.

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Postby NotARobot » Sun Jun 22, 2014 4:31 am

Wait what he ulted jace and didn't get a helix or something? Am I missing something here, why would he do that

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Postby Rhyno » Sun Jun 22, 2014 4:33 am

I skullcracked on upkeep specifically to blank Helix and Last Breath (on his Elspeth tokens.) I was screwed if he had Elixer but I gambled on him not having it. To win he needed a Rev or Counter from his draw that turn, which to be fair isn't that unlikely.

EDIT: The correct play for him was to minus Jace and dig for a counter if he didn't have Elixer.

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Postby magicdownunder » Mon Jun 23, 2014 1:41 am

Last Time
[quote="magicdownunder » Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:05 pm"]Got back from my two week break and won two SE event, current rank No. 25 (should be 23) and current rating 1800+ limbo (its 1843 atm).

Here is the list:

[deck=MDU's Rw Burn for MODOs Ghost and Monsters]Lands 23
8 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
3 Mutavault
2 Boros Guildgate
1 Temple of Silence
1 Temple of Malice

Creatures 08
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Enchantments and Removal 05
4 Chained to the Rocks
1 Mizzium Mortars

Burns 24
4 Magma Jet
4 Warleader's Helix
4 Shock
4 Skullcrack
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike

Sideboard 15
4 Toil //
Trouble
3 Mizzium Mortars
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Banishing Light
1 Keening Apparition
1 Mutavault
1 Reprisal
1 Fated Conflagration[/deck]

Manabase
Why arn't I running Mana Confluence? This version of burn is almost a control deck with the number of removal I'm running in my 75 so I need a REALLY good reason to take all that pain

Why I'm I running 1 Temple of Silence and 1 Temple of Malice? 6 Scry lands = more choices which gives you more chances too either win or lose.

MD Removal Suit
Jund is the current topdog online follow by Bx Devo and Ux Devo so not running 4x Chains and 1x MM would be silly.

SB
2 Banishing Light is a my answer against Ux Devotion (I know lots of you here believe the MU is a bye, but its one of the few MU which can just kill you if you don't have CttR or BL on the spot)

1
Reprisal and 1 Fated Conflagration are for all the Ghost and Monster decks (I wanted too go 2x Reprisal but I felt that I needed that 5th MM for SBD and BBV)

3 Mizzium Mortars a must have if your not on the Dancer package

4 Toil // Trouble, 2 Chandra, Pyromaster, 1 Mutavault are my preferred anti-control package

- - - - - - - - - -

I count the 1 Keening Apparition as my flex spot, still thinking about it.
SE Report 7223931
G1 Ux Devotion vs Rw Burn SE 7223931
G2 Naya vs Rw Burn SE 7223931
G3 Bant Control vs Rw Burn SE 7223931

Sideboarding is included in
the videos but please not this is my first game within two weeks so cards and boarding are pending change.
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Postby Whole » Mon Jun 23, 2014 1:58 am

So at GP Chicago, the top 8 was 5/8 Mono Black (or B/G) Devotion. So I'm expecting a rise in Mono Black, and while I'm comfortable in the matchup, is there anything really good we can board in against them.

This is my sideboard currently (basically Shouta's maindeck):

[deck]
Sideboard
2 Chandra Pyromaster
3 Keening Apparition
1 Mutavault (3 main)
1 Banishing Light (1 main)
1 Chained to the Rocks (3 main)
2 Mizzium Mortars (1 main)
1 Fated Conflagration
4 Boros Reckoners
[/deck]

I guess my flex spots are 1 Keening (or if there is something good against both control and monoblack, all of them), 1 Mutavault, some Reckoners, and Fated could be Mortars #4 (but I love how it hits Stormbreath, Polukranos, Baron, and Obzedat). There is a lack of Prophetic Flamespeakers, but is it good vs Monoblack devotion?
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Postby magicdownunder » Mon Jun 23, 2014 2:07 am

You can run either Assemble the Legions vs Mono-Black Devotion (which is an autowin) or vs Bg you can run Firedrinker Satyr x4 or Eidolon of the Great Revel x4 on the play.

P.S. 3cc creatures which don't immediately impact the game are bad vs Removal.decks.
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Postby zenbitz » Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:35 am

Also on T4 I swung with a Mutavault, Pyromancer and a Token leaving up RR, he animated Mutavault leaving up blue and blocked the token. I didn't burn it when he animated it fearing Rapid Hybridization. I'm unsure if I made the right play here.
Burning it before blockers gives him a 3/3 to block with, but I think it's still worth swinging and letting him eat a token if he has it. There's no way he'd risk animating it without Hybridization right?
If he has Rapid (and doesn't care if he loses a land), shouldn't he block YP to force you to use a burn spell? Or you can burn it after blockers and save your token? I mean, if thinks turning 'vault into a green 3/3 is value he can do it anytime he has 2 mana.

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Postby Rhyno » Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:58 am

Also on T4 I swung with a Mutavault, Pyromancer and a Token leaving up RR, he animated Mutavault leaving up blue and blocked the token. I didn't burn it when he animated it fearing Rapid Hybridization. I'm unsure if I made the right play here.
Burning it before blockers gives him a 3/3 to block with, but I think it's still worth swinging and letting him eat a token if he has it. There's no way he'd risk animating it without Hybridization right?
If he has Rapid (and doesn't care if he loses a land), shouldn't he block YP to force you to use a burn spell? Or you can burn it after blockers and save your token? I mean, if thinks turning 'vault into a green 3/3 is value he can do it anytime he has 2 mana.
nThe way I read it was he picked a line where 3 things could happen. From his perspective: Either I burn before blocks and he blocks Pyromancer with a 3/3, or I burn after he blocks a token and gets his 3/3, or he eats a token for free. But yes, he was obviously ready to lose his Mutavault either way so why not block the Pyromancer?

I'm just trying to establish if I play around Rapid or not, he has to have it there right?

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Postby Rhyno » Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:59 am

Also I won a game today without resolving a spell. Mutavault is a messed up card.

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Postby Purp » Mon Jun 23, 2014 2:07 pm

What happened to burn? Has not put up results in 3 weeks!
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Postby Purp » Mon Jun 23, 2014 2:18 pm

Worth mention that the highest placing GP burn decks (2 of them went 9-0 on Day 1) were playing Eidolon.
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