[Primer] Boros Burn

[BrainsickHater]

Just to clarify, Zem, you played Shouta's list this past weekend?

Also, you said you wish you had a 4th flamespeaker. Could you elaborate a little? Do you wish you had a fourth for the aggro matchups or for the MBC matchup, or both? Was flamespeaker eating removal just not really that bad, or did it even happen?

[Lightning_Dolt]

@ MDU, which matchups are you finding reckoner useful in?

[magicdownunder]

@ MDU, which matchups are you finding reckoner useful in?

Its good against random decks like G and R Devotion, GR Monster, Dredge, Hexproof, most aggro decks and so on.

I don't like it in this current metagame though since running 3cc creatures which are easy too deal with vs removal.deck in a list like our with >12 creature is just asking for problems....

P.S. Keep in mind I havn't played magic in over a week now so the metagame could have shifted . . .

[HK1997]

I like reckoner. He does some real wonders if you know how to handle him. The one mistake you must avoid at all costs is playing him into a time walk when the oppenent already has a board presence. THAT is asking for trouble.

vs. Aggro: If they have removal, keep him back until you have cleared the board or you are comfortable being time walked whilst having a high life total. If not, jam him in and watch everything slow down to a crawl.

Besides that I feel 3 of in the sideboard will be fine instead of 4 (i really dont like having two of them in most matchups since it feels slow). Where he really shines tho is any matchup with caryatids and coursers. Its such a weird and exciting feeling to be able to attack a green wall and not be blocked.

About meta shifts:
Well the last three days Ive been pit exclusively vs. MonoU, MonoBD, MonoBA, MonoRA, Mirror (mostly with eidolon MD), UW Control (a lot of the zero-o-ring
builds), brave naya aggro, hexproof and one single dredge opponent. Looks to me that the time of the big monsters invasion might be coming to an end. In descending order of frequency, the top 5:
MonoB Devotion, MonoU Devotion, UW Control, RW Burn
If I had to give a 6th spot, it would be shared by MonoB Aggro and MonoR Aggro.

What have you guys been facing on modo lately?

[zemanjaski]

Anyway, playing a 5K tomorrow. Going to run Shota's list without any testing, should be fine I guess.

[zemanjaski]

Anyway, doing a video testing session on twitch for Sneak and Show with either Patty Robinson (Australia #1) or Sam Loy (#8); whoever isn't playing will be commentating. I'll put up link details when I have them.

[HK1997]

Also: Does anyone actually still grind modo? The current EV is so ridiculess that you need a 67% win ratio just to break even on a 8-man. And splitting the final round of a daily with 2 wins and 1 loss will also just net you back your tix for entering. Basically: 3-0 or 4-0 or no cash. That' some horrible value right there.


EDIT: in the past 4 hours just 2 8-mans fired off.... oh well! time to go out and enjoy the real world!

[Rhyno]

I was testing the Sligh matchup last night, it's basically just as easy as it was the last time it popped up and the strategy is the same. Don't wait until they declare attackers unless you have the resources to beat a Maaka, side out starting with non-removal burn, don't tap out, etc. Eidolon is just a crappy blocker in that matchup. Hopefully it trades for a dude and not a Maaka. And if you're on the Pyromancer version, decide where you're getting lunch because this round will be a good time for it.

Also I saw a couple people arguing that Sligh will push burn out of the Meta. More ridiculous than when Staff got popular.

Also: Does anyone actually still grind modo? The current EV is so ridiculess that you need a 67% win ratio just to break even on a 8-man. And splitting the final round of a daily with 2 wins and 1 loss will also just net you back your tix for entering. Basically: 3-0 or 4-0 or no
cash. That' some horrible value right there.

Nope, as of right now I only play for practice, the slow bleed.

[Valdarith]

Yeah, the EV online right now is terrible. I'm resigned to either playing Vintage Masters drafts or Cube if I get online this week. I may cash out of Standard altogether.

[Elricity]

I'm trying to do modo more but the low pack prices is defintely making it painful. My goal is 3-4 times a week. You use DEs to make a bankroll and I've never tried to split into 2-1-1.

Mostly I'm breaking even to bonehead plays dropping a match though the occassional land screw has happened.

How exactly is sligh supposed to be reliable against burn? I get that boros reckoner is a decent hate card and peak eruption from the sideboard is an issue but beyond that, it's hard to beat a deck running 23 cheap removal.

[Valdarith]

I'm trying to do modo more but the low pack prices is defintely making it painful. My goal is 3-4 times a week. You use DEs to make a bankroll and I've never tried to split into 2-1-1.

Mostly I'm breaking even to bonehead plays dropping a match though the occassional land screw has happened.

How exactly is sligh supposed to be reliable against burn? I get that boros reckoner is a decent hate card and peak eruption from the sideboard is an issue but beyond that, it's hard to beat a deck running 23 cheap removal.

Well if it's anything like Ross's build I can imagine it giving Burn a run for its money because it has superior tempo. You're almost guaranteed to have three creatures on board by turn two. Now if you're running YP$ this deck
isn't an issue, and even then you have Phoenix buybacks to deal with them, but I can see how Boss Red could sneak some wins out.

[Elricity]

Oh it's possible, I dropped a match 0-2 against RDW last night. Generally though, you are unfavored the first game and then clean them up the next two games.

[Rhyno]

Someone else should chime in on this but I think we're more favored against Sligh than RDW. Sligh 2-for-1s itself and has terrible creature quality. Would you rather burn your opponents creatures out and have them be left with a Foundry Street Denizen or a Boros Reckoner? I don't think either deck can kill you before you get Helix online either unless you keep a hand with 4 Skullcracks. I know dismissing matchups as "byes" and ignoring them sounds loose but that's my current plan.

[HK1997]

I'm trying to do modo more but the low pack prices is defintely making it painful. My goal is 3-4 times a week. You use DEs to make a bankroll and I've never tried to split into 2-1-1.

Mostly I'm breaking even to bonehead plays dropping a match though the occassional land screw has happened.

How exactly is sligh supposed to be reliable against burn? I get that boros reckoner is a decent hate card and peak eruption from the sideboard is an issue but beyond that, it's hard to beat a deck running 23 cheap removal.

You do, when the next daily is starting in 5 minutes Since dailies are 3 hours apart and the 4th round cuts into the next event, its definitely not
uncommon to split 2-1-1 in a daily when playing against grinders.

On the sligh vs burn note: Both RDW and sligh have some draws that can outright kill us G1, especially when we dont mulligan for it. Bad luck game two and you've lost the matchup. But on average I dont see either sligh or RDW making any significant dent in our win ratios.

[Valdarith]

Someone else should chime in on this but I think we're more favored against Sligh than RDW. Sligh 2-for-1s itself and has terrible creature quality. Would you rather burn your opponents creatures out and have them be left with a Foundry Street Denizen or a Boros Reckoner? I don't think either deck can kill you before you get Helix online either unless you keep a hand with 4 Skullcracks. I know dismissing matchups as "byes" and ignoring them sounds loose but that's my current plan.

But it really doesn't 2 for 1 itself as much as you think. Madcap Skills may as well be Lightning Strike in this deck if played properly, and Akroan Crusader makes tokens which can be difficult for burn to deal with. You are much more favored against a more
classic RDW shell.

[Rhyno]

But it really doesn't 2 for 1 itself as much as you think. Madcap Skills may as well be Lightning Strike in this deck if played properly, and Akroan Crusader makes tokens which can be difficult for burn to deal with. You are much more favored against a more classic RDW shell.

It 2 for 1s itself as much as I think it does, which is occasionally and more than RDW does. But more importantly burn is hardly ever tapped out on their turn which makes Madcap Skills difficult to slip in and pump has to sit in their hand when they'd otherwise dump it on you. The tokens are annoying which is why Crusader dies early if possible. Pyromancer and a couple burn spells just embarrasses that deck.

Regardless of which is actually worse though, the point I
was trying to make is that I don't think Sligh is threatening enough compared to RDW to warrant changes even if it pops up once and a while.

[rage_jl]

Most players who jump on sligh during its next 15 minutes of fame will not have Tom Ross's experience and judgement with the deck; much like the increase in burn after Knoxville. Most players who jump deck to deck because it placed well last week tend to lack the ability to adjust to the changing play styles. I'd worry more about the Bx, Monster, and control matchups where the guy has been piloting the deck for 6 months. Sligh's prominence will drift away in a week or two...when's the next open?

[Nezeru]

Even with pack prices being this bad, if you aren't making money on modo you're doing something wrong. My constructed rating is under 1800 right now and I have yet to lose tickets across two events.

I'm playing GP Chicago this weekend so I'll be testing a lot.

[Elricity]

Most players who jump on sligh during its next 15 minutes of fame will not have Tom Ross's experience and judgement with the deck; much like the increase in burn after Knoxville. Most players who jump deck to deck because it placed well last week tend to lack the ability to adjust to the changing play styles. I'd worry more about the Bx, Monster, and control matchups where the guy has been piloting the deck for 6 months. Sligh's prominence will drift away in a week or two...when's the next open?

Maybe I'm a bit out of the loop again. What exactly is the sligh deck? I lost track of the difference between it and RDW.

[Purp]

We are favored in both of these matchups, adjust your decks accordingly based on predicted meta (paper or online).

The End.

[Rhyno]

Most players who jump on sligh during its next 15 minutes of fame will not have Tom Ross's experience and judgement with the deck; much like the increase in burn after Knoxville. Most players who jump deck to deck because it placed well last week tend to lack the ability to adjust to the changing play styles. I'd worry more about the Bx, Monster, and control matchups where the guy has been piloting the deck for 6 months. Sligh's prominence will drift away in a week or two...when's the next open?

Maybe I'm a bit out of the loop again. What exactly is the sligh deck? I lost track of
the difference between it and RDW.

This is the deck we're talking about in Standard:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdat ... ckID=68882

There's not much to discuss, Tom Ross plays it in standard and sometimes wins with it.

[Elricity]

Oh, that explains why I saw it a couple times. Yeah, just your basic draw better than your opponent with scry matchup. The only awkward part is deciding when it's safe to burn on their pre-combat step and when you need to burn on your turn so you don't get blown out by titan strength.

I'm generally ok with someone lightning bolting me with madcap.

[Elricity]

Still running my same list, I seem to be happy with it even if fated maybe should just be a 4th mortar.

Deck

---

[deck]
Critters
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix
Spells
2 Searing Blood
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix
3 Chained to the Rocks
4 Shock

Land
8 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
3 Mutavault
2 Boros Guildgate
1 Temple of Malice
1 Temple of Silence

Sideboard
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
4 Toil // Trouble
3 Mizzium Mortars
1 Banishing Light
1 Fated Conflagration
3 Keening Apparition
1 Chained to the Rocks[/deck]

G1 June 12 vs BW Midrange
[
url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSOXo_EzFpQ]G2 June 12 vs BW Midrange[/url]
G3 June 12 vs UWb control
G4 June 12 vs Burn Mirror with Eidolon

1st DE G1 June 15 vs AIR
1st DE G2 June 15 vs UW Control (More fun with Keening Apparation)
1st DE G3 June 15 vs Esper Control (My decision to sideboard Fated that probably cost me the game)
1st DE G4 June 15 vs RDW

Lost my next DE after that due to some questionable decisions against blue devotion and RDW
followed by being out drawn. Maybe I should host them in a "don't do this dumb thing" way. Match 3 was against MBA and he must have been lagging bad because he quit the tournament after bleeding time on his first three turns.

Hopefully the music isn't terrible. I ran out of ideas pretty quick. Should I be cranking down the volume a couple more notches?

[PirateKingAtomsk]

@ elricity
i think the difference is that sligh runs more 1 drops and typically curves out at 3 where as rdw runs a higher curve.

[LP, of the Fires]

Most players who jump on sligh during its next 15 minutes of fame will not have Tom Ross's experience and judgement with the deck; much like the increase in burn after Knoxville. Most players who jump deck to deck because it placed well last week tend to lack the ability to adjust to the changing play styles. I'd worry more about the Bx, Monster, and control matchups where the guy has been piloting the deck for 6 months. Sligh's prominence will drift away in a week or two...when's the next open?

Maybe I'm a bit out of the loop again. What exactly is the sligh deck? I lost track of
the difference between it and RDW.

Tom Ross's deck is 20 1 drops, ash zealot and maka, and a bunch of pumps/enchantments like dragon mantle, titan strength, madcap skills, etc. with spare slots spent on burn spells and 17 land.

[dauntless268]

I'm boarding out as many 4 drops as possible vs control as I reasonably can.

I agree. This is also one of the reasons why I tend to favour Hammer over Chandra in my SB vs. Control. It's much easier to play reasonably proactive D-Sphere hate than to try and get 4 CMC cards through counterspells.

[Elricity]

Coming from someone who used hammer in burn, it's utility is seriously limited. I'm hard pressed to want to sacrifice lands against control and all it hastes is YP and a couple sideboard cards. I could try it again but I'm not giddy about it.

On the other hand, I have several Chandra ultimates vs control under my belt now. I credit that to having keening apparation as backup though so that they don't have another out if I slip her under control.

[BrainsickHater]

I was reading Zem's r/spikes AMA and I realized something about the way I've been building my sideboard.

The Shouta list that Zem played to great success is a very grindy list. I think we're all familiar with adapting to play a grindier control game against creature decks, but it never dawned on me to try and grind out value against control. The Shouta list is seemingly built to do just that. Up until now, I've been buildling my sideboards like the last deck I posted:

[deck]
Creatures
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Other Spells
4 Chained to the Rocks

1 Mizzium Mortars
4 Shock
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
4 Skullcrack
4 Boros Charm
4 Warleader's Helix

Lands
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
3 Mutavault
2 Mana Confluence
2 Boros Guildgate
8 Mountain

Sideboard
3 Mizzium Mortars
3 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2 Keening Apparition
1 Wear // Tear
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
1
Blind Obedience
1 Banishing Light
2 Reprisal
[/deck]

I have plenty of control cards for games against creatures, but when it comes to MB or UW decks, I have these very awkward Eidolons that really don't mesh with the rest of the deck. Pretty much every other card in my SB is about being able to win a longer game, except the Eidolons. It occurs to me that perhaps it's incorrect of me to try and force my deck to play traditional, blazing fast burn against control decks when the rest of my card choices are about grinding out games. It's very likely that my lack of success against MB and my shaky results against control are due to me making decisions in-game that conflict with the card choices I made in my deck.

As of now, I'm going to try and adapt and win against control in a different way, using the Shota list with Zem's recommended changes as a starting point. I think it will help me improve as a player and a deck builder, maybe even helping me gain what it takes to view matchups from
different angles to find the most elegant -and successful- route to victory.


If I'm wrong about everything I just said, that would be pretty embarrassing, but I thought I would share my ideas with all of you to help me determine if I'm headed in the right direction, and maybe help some of you guys out too.

[amcfvieira]

After more than a month oh "hiatus" of standard and focus only in Modern. I take the deck for the FNM and in Sunday to try qualify to the Nationals and got it. I play Young Pyromancer in the list and really like it. The main board was very standard, and the sideboard choices are bellow.

Deck

---

[deck]LANDS
8 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
2 Boros Guildgate
1 Temple of Malice
1 Mana Confluence
3 Mutavault

CREATURES
4 Chandra’s Phoenix
4 Young Pyromancer

SPELLS
4 Boros Charm
4 Skullcrack
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Warleader’s Helix
3 Shock
3 Searing Blood
3 Chained to the Rocks


SIDEBOARD
1 Blind Obedience
1 Chained to the Rocks
3 Mizzium Mortars
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Wear // Tear
2 Banishing Light
2 Reprisal
2 Prophetic Flamespeaker[/deck]

My
sideboard plan are bellow and any help to improve it will be appreciated.

Sideboard Plan

---

MONO BLACK
+ Chained to the Rocks
+ Reprisal
+ Chandra
+ Banishing Light
(+ W/T) (Staff DM)
(+ Mizzium Mortars) (Splash White, N. Specter)
- Shock
-Boros Charm (2)
-Searing Blood (if not have P. Rat)
(- Magma Jet)

MONSTERS
+ Chained
+ Mizzium
+ B. Light
+ Reprisal
- Skullcrack
-Boros Charm
- Shock (if not have mana dorks)
(- Searing B.) (if not have mana dorks)

MONO BLUE
+ Chained
+ Mizzium
+B. Light
+Prophetic
- Boros Charm
- Skullcrack

CONTROL (UW/ESPER)
+ Chandra
+ B. Light
+ Prophetic
(+ W/T)
(+ Mizzium)
- Chained
(- Shock)
- Searing Blood
(-W. Helix)

Rx DEVOTION
+ Chained
+ Blind Obedience
+ Mizzium
+ B. Light
+ (W/T) (only with Rw)
- Shock
- Skullcrack

RW BURN
+ Chained (B. Light)
+ Blind
Obedience
+Chandra
(+Prophetic)
-YP

BWX (6 for 6 magicdownunder tech)
+ Mizzium
+Blind O.
+ Reprisal
(+ Chained)
(+ B. Light)
- Shock
- Searing B.

AGROO
+ Mizzium
+ Chain
+ B.Light
(+ Blind Obedience)
(+ Chandra)
(+ Prophetic)
- Skullcrack
- Boros Charm

Think in change one mountain for another Red Temple. After being 2 times colour screw (from the 2 red) in the FNM I cut the white temple for mana confluence. Now thinking in return for 8 untap lands and 6 temples again.
The Prophetic in sideboard it's only a try, because I don't have it online and I can test it in MTGO. But I never had it in my hand.

[zemanjaski]

I've found Hammer of Purphoros really underwhelming in burn.

[zemanjaski]

After more than a month oh "hiatus" of standard and focus only in Modern. I take the deck for the FNM and in Sunday to try qualify to the Nationals and got it. I play Young Pyromancer in the list and really like it. The main board was very standard, and the sideboard choices are bellow.

Deck

---

[deck]LANDS
8 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
2 Boros Guildgate
1 Temple of Malice
1 Mana Confluence
3 Mutavault

CREATURES
4 Chandra’s Phoenix
4 Young Pyromancer

SPELLS
4 Boros Charm
4 Skullcrack
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Warleader’s Helix
3 Shock
3 Searing Blood
3 Chained to the Rocks


SIDEBOARD
1 Blind Obedience
1 Chained to the Rocks
3 Mizzium Mortars
2
Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Wear // Tear
2 Banishing Light
2 Reprisal
2 Prophetic Flamespeaker[/deck]

My sideboard plan are bellow and any help to improve it will be appreciated.

Sideboard Plan

---

MONO BLACK
+ Chained to the Rocks
+ Reprisal
+ Chandra
+ Banishing Light
(+ W/T) (Staff DM)
(+ Mizzium Mortars) (Splash White, N. Specter)
- Shock
-Boros Charm (2)
-Searing Blood (if not have P. Rat)
(- Magma Jet)

MONSTERS
+ Chained
+ Mizzium
+ B. Light
+ Reprisal
- Skullcrack
-Boros Charm
- Shock (if not have mana dorks)
(- Searing B.) (if not have mana dorks)

MONO BLUE
+ Chained
+ Mizzium
+B. Light
+Prophetic
- Boros Charm
- Skullcrack

CONTROL (UW/ESPER)
+ Chandra
+ B. Light
+ Prophetic
(+ W/T)
(+ Mizzium)
- Chained
(- Shock)
- Searing Blood
(-W. Helix)

Rx DEVOTION
+ Chained
n+ Blind Obedience
+ Mizzium
+ B. Light
+ (W/T) (only with Rw)
- Shock
- Skullcrack

RW BURN
+ Chained (B. Light)
+ Blind Obedience
+Chandra
(+Prophetic)
-YP

BWX (6 for 6 magicdownunder tech)
+ Mizzium
+Blind O.
+ Reprisal
(+ Chained)
(+ B. Light)
- Shock
- Searing B.

AGROO
+ Mizzium
+ Chain
+ B.Light
(+ Blind Obedience)
(+ Chandra)
(+ Prophetic)
- Skullcrack
- Boros Charm

Think in change one mountain for another Red Temple. After being 2 times colour screw (from the 2 red) in the FNM I cut the white temple for mana confluence. Now thinking in return for 8 untap lands and 6 temples again.
The Prophetic in sideboard it's only a try, because I don't have it online and I can test it in MTGO. But I never had it in my hand.

Well done. I'd personally be afraid to go down to only 11 mountains!

[zemanjaski]

@ BransickHater ~ that's an insightful realization. You need your deck building choices to be congruent with each ither; sideboarding souls be a natural extension of this. Because my maindeck is already so grindy, it creates too much tension to try and switch to a hyper aggro strategy after board ~ I'll get awkward draws that want to go in different directions.

My deck plays out much more like a tempo deck after board; with Boros charm and Skullcrack frequently operating as counterspells.

I don't think that's the definitively correct approach, or even the best approach; but it's the way that I can leverage my advantages most fully over other players.

[Purp]

Z, how was flamespeaker agaisnt MBC for you? The SB seems to have a lot of ways to approach that matchup. 2 reprisal, 2 chandra, 3 flmspkr and 2 banishin light. siding in all 8 of these seems almost TOO grindy. Curious as to how much your approach changes when playing reprisal or flamespeaker as opposed to not. Am I over thinking? No way it was -4 shcok -4 boros charm

[zemanjaski]

One time it died to removal, the other time it drew 4 cards.

[Khaospawn]

One time it died to removal

I see what you did there.

[Purp]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEi4I6UWuDQ

family guy ftw

[dauntless268]

I've found Hammer of Purphoros really underwhelming in burn.

Our experience seems to differ, I've actually been quite pleased with what it has offered me: Protection against flooding out, comes down t3, haste for YP and its tokens, Keening Apparition and Mutavault... I play it with an extra Mutavault out of the SB though.

With potentially 4 Boros Reckoner out of the SB vs. Control, the value of Hammer should theoretically increase as well.

[Elricity]

Playing through the shota deck now and trying to focus on the UWx control matchup mostly. I don't think I've ever drawn a boros reckoner to see how decent that is but the extra banishing lights to interact with Jace actually made flamespeaker not awful. Was doing a 2/2 split of speaker/reckoner just to diversify the answers that are needed for both. 3/1 flamespeaker/reckoner might be better because if flamespeaker goes unanswered, it's taking over the game.

I chose temple of silence and swapping to 1 keening apparation.

Edit: Huh, had it do 9 damage because he was stuck on ultimate price.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Aren't you guys having issues with reckoner + mutavaults + cipt lands?

[Elricity]

Aren't you guys having issues with reckoner + mutavaults + cipt lands?

You actually don't have to cast it on curve. Getting YP and or Phoenix down first is generally more important depending on the matchup.

Generally you want to land him when it's the last thing to stabilize.

This decklist does get some actual use out of the mana confluence though where in my previous lists it was totally useless.

That said, I did have 1 game where my choice of temple of silence instead of mountain lost me a game where I needed my 8th source untapped. I don't normally consider that a factor.