Mono Black Aggro

[Toddington]

Erebos doesn't seem horrendous, but if you want to play Specter you'd have to cut back on Mutavaults. This deck already has so much going on at 3CMC, Specter doesn't seem better than Lifebane Zombie/Mogis's Marauders/Herald of Torment in an aggro deck.

[ADarkConfidant]

Has anyone considered running Nightviel Specter and Erebos main for potetially 10 sources of CA (and turning off lifegain G1)?

Erebos costs a lot for someone who isn't always a creature. We don't really want his ability either.
Not saying that they're bad. What I am saying is that as an aggro deck, we want quick matches whenever we can get them, and to close the game out.

I think Nightveil Specter is very hard to cast turn 3, let alone kill someone quickly. His stolen cards also take extra time to invest in and cast.
A 2/3 just isn't aggressive enough on turn 3 compared to Herald of Torment at 3/3 and Master of the Feast at 5/5.

Returning to Erebos, I think he is a good sideboard card against U/W Control, where the match might end up
going unintentionally long. Turning off Sphinx Rev's lifegain might keep us in the game long enough to close it out. Also if the game is sadly pushed on, we may have to pay life to draw more creatures, but at that point it's our only chance to win the game.

So Nightveil Specter is just bad in this type of deck.
Erebos is great against Black and U/W based control decks, but as an aggro deck we don't want it as Plan A.

[dpaine88]

Ok so this deck is shaping up to be REAL good, and maybe even splash a little red with Mana Confluence.

What do you guys think about Herald of Torment vs Master of Feasts?? Maybe SB swap.

I have been checking the major sites and found a few interesting lists.

This is one by Todd Anderson

[deck]Creatures (26)

4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Tormented Hero
4 Gnarled Scarhide
4 Spike Jester
4 Mogis's Warhound
4 Master of the Feast
2 Spiteful Returned

Lands (24)
1 Mountain
8 Swamp
4 Blood Crypt
4 Mana Confluence
4 Mutavault
3 Temple of Malice

Spells (10)
2 Hero's Downfall
4 Lightning Strike
4 Thoughtseize

Sideboard
4 Lifebane Zombie
3 Dark Betrayal
4 Doom Blade
4 Pharika's Cure[/deck]

Basically splashing for Lighting Strike, Spike Jester and Mogis Warhound.

This deck looks fast but I think I would rather have Mogis's Marauder instead of Spiteful Returned.

Mana looks to be pretty good but
scry land could mess with the curve. Might be able to cut a land down to 23.



Then there is Owen Turtenwald's Deck. This is just black.

[deck]Lands
4 x Mutavault
19 x Swamp

Creatures
4 x Tormented Hero
4 x Rakdos Cackler
4 x Gnarled Scarhide
4 x Pain Seer
2 x Mogis's Marauder
4 x Herald Of Torment
4 x Lifebane Zombie

Noncreature Spells
2 x Bile Blight
4 x Hero's Downfall
4 x Thoughtseize
1 x Duress

Sideboard
4 x Master of the Feast
4 x Dark Betrayal
4 x Doom Blade
3 x Duress[/deck]

This is very similar to the black we have now but dropping a 2-drop for the new 1-drop creature.

I would cut the Duress for another Marauder myself.



Is the splash worth it? I think thats what it will come down to. Spike Jester is good but is 8 untapped Red sources enough? Maybe have to add some Mountains?

[Elricity]

If you're running red/black aggro, you run dreadbore over downfall.

[dpaine88]

Sounds right to me.

[PirateKingAtomsk]

i like master of feasts but what would you side it in against and take out for it, what wouldn't you want it against?

[dpaine88]

I'd say you'd want it against most decks but not Mono Black Devotion as they have Demon and lots of removal for it.

Found this list in an LSV article.

[deck]4 Mutavault
19 Swamp

23 lands

1 Desecration Demon
4 Gnarled Scarhide
4 Herald of Torment
3 Master of the Feast
2 Mogis's Marauder
4 Pain Seer
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Tormented Hero

26 creatures

2 Bile Blight
3 Hero's Downfall
4 Thoughtseize
2 Ultimate Price

11 other spells
[/deck]

I quite like this deck but I would drop the 1 Demon for a 3rd Mogis's Marauder. I just love that card and its even better with another one drop added to the deck.

No Lifebane Zombie but I think thats fine since G/R got kinda hated out but def have it in the SB.

[Ajak]

Herald of Torment is the main reason to play this deck in my opinion and I can't see cutting it. Even against creature decks, Marauder's and Herald's abilities keep the one drops relevant and help Pain Seer get through. I think Master of the Feast vs. Lifebane zombie is a tougher choice. They both have evasion, but offer a choice between possible card advantage/information and a faster clock. Feast seems risky against black devotion since they love drawing cards, but neither zombie or marauder really shine in that matchup either. Zombie seems like the obvious pick against control, but I think it's too close to call against the others without testing. Even against G/R I like master since it blocks stormbreath. There's not much worse than casting zombie thinking you're going to get your opponent and seeing nothing but dragons, mortars, and planeswalkers. I managed to get my hands on 3 Feasters at prerelease
weekend and I'm looking forward to seeing how much this card draw effect actually hurts.

I've also been cutting down on duress after playing with 4 for a while. I like it against control, burn, and hexproof, but I'm down to 2 in the sideboard because it doesn't feel like what I want to be doing most of the time. Thoughtseize is too good to get rid of, but since we will soon have 12 good one drops I'd rather focus on pushing damage through as fast as possible with removal and evasion effects.

[dpaine88]

I think Master seems good right now since

1) Lifebane is best when green is running heavy but the biggest green deck, R/G Monsters is waning. Still good vs BBV though.

2) Master is WAY better vs other aggro decks, where this deck is naturally weak against.

[Purp]

ran a gauntlet tonight trying to decide a deck for scg knox, i played BR aggro and burn.

br deck

[deck]
4 Cackler
4 Gnarled Scarhide
2 Tormented Hero
4 Spike Jester
4 Pain Seer
3 Mogis Waround
2 Mogis Marauder
3 Heral of Torment
2 Master of Feast

4 Lightning Strike
4 Thoughtseize
2 Dreadbore

4 Blo0d Crypt
4 Temple of Malice
3 Mana Conflux
2 Mutavault
9 Swamp
[/deck]

All I can say is wow...this deck was no joke. Resilient as hell.

[Aodh]

Has anyone playtested with JOU extensively? Brain Maggot seems good too?

[ADarkConfidant]

Brain Maggot is good in the U/W matchup.....that's all I got. He's a good 2 drop, which our archetype is still shaky on, but I don't think he's aggressive enough for us. Hear me out: I think our deck would rather kill someone quickly enough to make their card draws irrelevant due to overwhelming force, than take one of their cards and hopes that it secures victory. That's just my guess, though.
Anecdotally speaking, Wizards loves to trick players with functional reprints of old good cards that aren't as good anymore.
Scientifically speaking, this card is worse than Duress is today's metagame, due to the huge tempo loss if the creature dies. It also only provides a 1/1 meaning that it'll crumble against any resistance it runs into. Checking the ol' Fire rule, this card makes it slower for us to win the game than Duress( or Thoughtseize), unless it never gets killed and is able to attack and reduce the
number of turns it takes to win( which as a 1/1, in a vacuum is 20 turns :\ ).
If the card is good, it'll probably work better in a control or midrange deck( like Esper or Mono Black Control), where it can be protected better without distracting from the main strategy.

Master of the Feasts is amazing against Monsters and Aggro decks. Terrible against U/W and Black( which combined are almost 50% of the metagame). I assume he probably isn't the best against Blue Devotion, unless you can clear a path for a Flyer to get into the red zone.

Gnarled Scarhide is a staple. Going to be sad when Cackler rotates out( can you believe that I've been playing him nonstop since RTR dropped?! Love the little guy), but I hope he gets a replacement 2/2 or 2/1 in black. Must play 4.

Silence the Believers: Holy mana curve batman! Not what we need.

Mana Confluence makes it tempting to play Rakdos again. I think that'll be great if we have to try to face too many hyper aggressive decks( White or Red based that'll
whoop this deck's tail!) and control deck's that aren't expecting other control decks( including more removal, even more in sideboard, and more win cons rather than trying to stall). Currently our weakness is lack of haste post-board wipe/ability to make a comeback against midrange and control decks, and also the hot mess that is our blocking capability. I love Scarhide and Cackler, but we can't block for crap if our lives depend on it.
This will stay in the back of my mind as the metagame develops.

And here's what I'll be testing first, in a week or two( won't have all the cards this Friday, so I'll do Black control):
[deck]Creature (26)
4x Gnarled Scarhide
4x Herald of Torment
4x Lifebane Zombie
2x Mogis's Marauder
4x Pain Seer
4x Rakdos Cackler
4x Tormented Hero

Instant (7)
2x Bile Blight
3x Hero's Downfall
2x Ultimate Price


Sorcery (4)
4x Thoughtseize

Land (23)
4x Mutavault
19x Swamp

Sideboard (15)
4x Dark Betrayal
3x Doom Blade
4x Duress
4x Master of the
Feast[/deck]

Sad to see Thrill-Kill go, but I love the great ammount of tempo this deck has. Master of the Feast is amazing against I worst matchups( Red Aggro, Burn, White Weenies and W/B Humans), and a better finisher( in my opinion) than Desecration Demon against our mediocre matchups( G/R Monsters).
Negative card advantage doesn't matter in these matchups, but tempo is everything.
DD is a 6/6 flying for 2BB that can only sometimes attack. With your opponent controlling your tempo, you're set to be slowed down away from victory in aggro matchups. Even worse, the aggro opponents are the ones more likely to be able to do such.
Master is a 5/5 flying for 1BB that gives the opponent a card each turn. However, they probably aren't going to have the tempo to take advantage of the extra card, nor the removal to get rid of your guaranteed 5 damage to the dome.

Other than that, our curve is now lower so Pain Seer works perfectly a much higher percentage of the time, and I feel we've optimized the best
3 drops available. We're also far more likely to get a 1 drop in our hand, which can make a big difference in tempo.

I'm very worried still about this deck surviving against Precinct Captain decks( which has beaten me before). Our deck honestly can't block( black can't block ), and against more aggressive decks, if we can't outrace as the beatdown, then we lose. I'm hoping Master of the Feasts fills this giant hole in our metagame armor.

Sideboarding

Black Control decks

---

-3 Hero's Downfall, -2 Mogis's Marauder, -2 Ultimate Price, +4 Dark Betrayal, +3 Duress

U/W Control decks

---

-2 Bile Blight, -2 Ultimate Price, +4 Duress

Monsters

---

-4 Tormented Hero, -1 Pain Seer, -2 Bile Blight, +3 Doom Blade, +4 Master of the Feast

my guess at a plan against Blue

---

(-4 Rakdos Cackler and -3 Hero's Downfall), -2 Ultimate Price, +4 Master of the Feast +3 Doom Blade

Red, Green, or White Aggro

---

-3 Hero's Downfall, -4 Thoughtseize, +3 Doom Blade, +4 Master of the Feast

One more.
I feel this build will be superior in the mirror....heheheh.
This could be incorrect, but in my limited mirror match experience( it's still a hard deck to run into), the less aggressive variant can win if they removal it up. It's also a good strategy for any aggro v aggro match where you're not "the beatdown". I think our ability to block and win the game swiftly after board stabilization is key.

Black aggro Mirror

---

-3 Hero's Downfall, -2 Mogis's Marauder, -3 Lifebane Zombie, +4 Dark Betrayal, +4 Master of the Feast

So yeah, love it or hate it,
this is my theory so far.
I'll test it at next week's FNM( won't have the Masters this week), and write up a full report( as is my custom).
Tell me what you think, post your own results, and have fun.
Good luck, and God bless

[dpaine88]

Great posts guys, glad we got this moving again.

@Purp - How has Warhound been? I have seen that card talked up a good bit. Why not 4 mana confluence though? Seems good to get Spike Jester more reliably. Turn 2 plays with 2 types of mana are tough especially since we run so many 1-drops we cant really run the scry lands well.

@ADC- Starting to see the trend where it is the 3 drop spot that is up in the air, rest looks pretty set aside from removal kinda.

Lifebane Zombie
Mogis's Marauder
Herald of Torment
Master of Feasts

We realistically can only play 7-10 of these guys. Usually 4/4/2 but regardless 1 of them is usually left out of the deck completely or put in sideboard.

I am starting to lean towards putting Lifebane in the sideboard and running a split of the other 3.

[Purp]

I didn't run 4 mana confluence because the build I had seemed to do a lot of damage to itself. It could be right to play 4, but with there being SO much aggro expected in the beginning of the format. I want to limit damage if possible.

Warhound is awesome. Helps vse control decks, and a 5/3 spike jester is awesome.

I would drop 1 Thoughtseize for an Ultimate Price.

I havn't tested enough to know to if splashing red is worth it, but dreadbore is awesome. Cackler, into jester into warhoud bestow is auto win if you draw one Lightning strike.

[Lightning_Dolt]

My thoughts for post rotation:

[deck] Creatures:26
4 Gnarled Scarhide
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Tormented Hero
4 Pain Seer
4 Herald of Torment
4 Master of the Feast
2 Mogis's Marauder

Spells:11
4 Thoughtseize
2 Bile Blight
2 Ultimate Price
3 Hero's Downfall

Lands:23
4 Mutavault
19 Swamp

Sideboard:15
2 Dark Betrayal
2 Duress
3 Doom Blade
3 Gift of Orzhova
3 Lifebane Zombie
2 Erebos, God of the Dead[/deck]

[dpaine88]

lightning dolt - you are basically spot on to the one change I would make to LSV's list...not a bad guy to be on the same page with.

Purp- you have any truble casting jester turn 2?

[Deht]

LD -- yep, looks great, just what I was thinking too.

[Purp]

I might have not been able to cast him turn 2, but I was able to etiher pain seer or thoughseize so it didnt feel too backbreaking. TS them and then play another 1 drop.

[dpaine88]

Yup, between LD, Owen Turtenwald and LSV- the deck is nearly identical.

I personally want 3 Marauder instead of 4 Master I think...somehow I want 3 Marauder.

Its just so good, and very good in multiples. If you get a decent start and play them two turns in a row, it is very strong so I don't mind having a lot.

Its only bad against MBC , its still decent against control vs Elspeth.

[Purp]

I won 3 games last night, dropping a marauder on a big board to get past 4 elspeth token. Felt great. 2 master felt fine, but with the increase in aggro in the beginning I can see 3 master

[Lightning_Dolt]

I was thinking I'd play Burn at FNM, but I think maybe I'd rather play this. Try to trade at Draft tonight for masters.

[Aodh]

I didn't know Brain Maggot cost 2. Nevermind haha. Has anyone been playing a leaner curve with Spiteful Returned? 12 1s, 8 2s, Mogis Marauders + removal's pretty consistent?

[amcfvieira]

My thoughts for post rotation:

[deck] Creatures:26
4 Gnarled Scarhide
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Tormented Hero
4 Pain Seer
4 Herald of Torment
4 Master of the Feast
2 Mogis's Marauder

Spells:11
4 Thoughtseize
2 Bile Blight
2 Ultimate Price
3 Hero's Downfall

Lands:23
4 Mutavault
19 Swamp

Sideboard:15
2 Dark Betrayal
2 Duress
3 Doom Blade
3 Gift of Orzhova
3 Lifebane Zombie
2 Erebos, God of the Dead[/deck]

I'm new to the archetype, only playing Mono B agroo in block yet, but this seems a great list to begin. My Masters and Gnarled Scarhide arrive next week and I'm anxious to play this deck
I like 2x Marauder in Block, sometimes it'
s stuck in my hand and I play everything else that I feel it's better. I don't play Standard yet with the deck, but with that in my head, maybe 2 is the right number (maybe 3 in some meta), because he is the worst 3 drop of the deck (in my opinion).

[notap123]

What are your thoughts on Shadow Alley Denizen? Helps Pain Seer stay active early and can help punch your last bit of damage through.

[dpaine88]

Eh, Mogis is just better as a 1/1 for 1 is pretty bad.

@Aodh - I wonder if that could work. My gut reaction is that the curve is too low as the deck has tons of early action as it is. On the other hand, it doe shave bestow. Still, which 3 drop would you cut for it? I think the 3 drop would be better personally.

[Ajak]

I'm a big fan of Marauder and Spiteful Returned as well, so this is what I'm planning to run:

[deck]
Creatures: 26
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Tormented Hero
4 Gnarled Scarhide
3 Pain Seer
2 Spiteful Returned
3 Mogis's Marauder
4 Herald of Torment
2 Master of the Feast

Spells: 11
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hero's Downfall
2 Bile Blight
2 Ultimate Price

Lands: 23
19 Swamp
4 Mutavault[/deck]

[notap123]

@dpaine

I am actually talking about running both Denizen and Maurader. Denizen gives your early creature evasion support whereas Maurader sets up the final push. Just as an obvious example for why to run them, Sylvan Caryatid.

[Aodh]

Eh, Mogis is just better as a 1/1 for 1 is pretty bad.

@Aodh - I wonder if that could work. My gut reaction is that the curve is too low as the deck has tons of early action as it is. On the other hand, it doe shave bestow. Still, which 3 drop would you cut for it? I think the 3 drop would be better personally.

12 1-drops
8 2-drops
4 MM

4 TS
4 HDF

23 land

We have 5 spots left, so could just run 1 UP + another 3-drop, or shave down to 3 MM, another 3-drop, and 2 UP or 1 UP / 1 BB? It's non-obvious what to do, really. We have so many good spells ATM, not to mention if we go into a second color.

[Lightning_Dolt]

not a fan of more than two marauder.

[Aodh]

I agree--in the mono-3-drop list--but in the context of lots of bears and weak creatures that want to attack, more seems justifiable. You're Johnny, right?

[dpaine88]

Oh shit no way

[Lightning_Dolt]

I agree--in the mono-3-drop list--but in the context of lots of bears and weak creatures that want to attack, more seems justifiable. You're Johnny, right?

I was. Changed my name.

[LP, of the Fires]

So who's tested with master of the feast? I'm still thinking I'd rather play LBZ and mogis marauder main over him, but The card is SO good vs. aggro. It would be nice to have a 3-drop that can actually block shit.

RE: spiteful returned. I know other people have played the card a lot more then myself but I think we've reached a point where our other options are better, especially now that we have more 1 drops. A friend of mine did point out something funny though. If you bestow one onto the other, you've effectively built your own shitty Geist of Saint Traft

[Aodh]

Keen observation, lol. That could certainly be right that we just have too many powerful cards. Master will be better in a monster/aggro metagame. He's fairly weak against UWx and MBD, so I'd be wary to play him ATM. But, we shall see what JOU can bring.

Played on Cockatrice some and there are multiple sphere f safety decks cropping up. Eww.

[ADarkConfidant]

Keen observation, lol. That could certainly be right that we just have too many powerful cards. Master will be better in a monster/aggro metagame. He's fairly weak against UWx and MBD, so I'd be wary to play him ATM. But, we shall see what JOU can bring.

This.

[ADarkConfidant]

not a fan of more than two marauder.

This too.

Mogis's Marauder as a 2/2 haste provides too little tempo for 3 mana.
At that point in the game, we want to win; which is possible with its ETB ability. Because of that, we definitely only want to see one per game.

Compared to our other 3 drops( a 3/3 flyer, 3/1 intimidate with peek attached, and a 5/5 flyer), which are all constantly more powerful and evasive, it sucks.
2/2 haste for 3 also is bad against control, where we want to use our mana more efficiently, and finish the game in less attacks.

So yeah, I think 2 is great.

Currently, I've been testing 4 Lifebane, 4 Herald, and 2 Marauder. I have 4 Master in the sideboard to replace Hero's Downfalls and 1 Lifebane.

[magicdownunder]

Why is master good vs Jund Monster? (Gr Monster maybe, but that deck hasn't been doing well...).

[Ajak]

After trying Master last night against monoB, RW devotion and Jund, any deck with desecration demon will make Master of the Feast look pretty bad. Giving them cards to find removal is going to be a gamble no matter what we play against, but when we can't even attack them it's just embarrassing. Master won me some games, but I didn't feel like he was doing anything DD couldn't do.

Mogis's Marauder as a 2/2 haste provides too little tempo for 3 mana.
At that point in the game, we want to win; which is possible with its ETB ability. Because of that, we definitely only want to see one per game.

I'm not sure what you mean by that DarkConfidant. Mogis's Marauder is actually more appealing to me now more than ever since we have 12 one drops. Curving out with 3 consecutive 1-drops and marauder on 3 puts us so far ahead before we even play a big creature. I agree he's not good
attacking alone, but I'm always happy to see more than one even if it's just to get a pain seer or a mutavault through. I only hold him if I have no other creatures on turn 3 in which case I'm probably screwed anyway. Best case scenario, he ends the game on turn 4 if we draw multiples.

Also, hexproof has been be a bad matchup for me and is probably going to be seen a lot more. How have you guys fared against it? Devour Flesh never worked well for me, but there are a couple sideboard options from journey. Dictate of Erebos seems great, but really slow and narrow. [card]Pharika's Chosen[/card] and Brain Maggot are much cheaper answers. Of the three, I like Brain Maggot since it's the most useful card overall. Lifebane zombie is less appealing when they're suiting up 1 and 2 drops and don't have to wait on citp lands.

[Aodh]

Devour Flesh, Away, Duress, and Thoughtseize are really powerful against Hexproof.

[dpaine88]

not a fan of more than two marauder.

This too.

Mogis's Marauder as a 2/2 haste provides too little tempo for 3 mana.
At that point in the game, we want to win; which is possible with its ETB ability. Because of that, we definitely only want to see one per game.

Compared to our other 3 drops( a 3/3 flyer, 3/1 intimidate with peek attached, and a 5/5 flyer), which are all constantly more powerful and evasive, it sucks.
2/2 haste for 3 also is bad against control, where we want to use our mana more efficiently, and finish the game in less attacks.

So yeah, I think
2 is great.

Currently, I've been testing 4 Lifebane, 4 Herald, and 2 Marauder. I have 4 Master in the sideboard to replace Hero's Downfalls and 1 Lifebane.

Why do you say you only want 1 Marauderr a game? I have found the opposite- that he is very good in multiples.

There are plenty of games where I have 2-3 creatures and 2 mogis in my hand. Unless they have removal or black creatures , they are just dead basically.

Two marauder attacks back to back is very very strong.