[Primer] Boros Burn

[gozmit97]

Should possibly play more Searing bloods if it really just is so live. Where do you guys sell boosters for tickets?

[PirateKingAtomsk]

Went to FNM last week , undefeated until top4 , then lost 2-1 against jund midrange. Rakdo's Return ruined my day.

What do we do against that card ? I just figured out i had to cast all my spells as soon as possible trying to race. It almost worked since i won game 2 then lost game 3 topdecking too much lands with him at 5 life .

if you run wild ricochet out of the board its a pretty nasty blowout against rr at 3+ it just sets them to nothing.

[LaZerBurn]

Should possibly play more Searing bloods if it really just is so live. Where do you guys sell boosters for tickets?

Bots - party booster bot usually gives the best price

[Elricity]

Went to FNM last week , undefeated until top4 , then lost 2-1 against jund midrange. Rakdo's Return ruined my day.

What do we do against that card ? I just figured out i had to cast all my spells as soon as possible trying to race. It almost worked since i won game 2 then lost game 3 topdecking too much lands with him at 5 life .

if you run wild ricochet out of the board its a pretty nasty blowout against rr at 3+ it just sets them to nothing.

You can't bounce rakdos returns back at them, only copy it. It has the same
problem as Sphinx which is why the card is a trap. It's too narrow.

[brianandstuff]

@Brianandstuff

Are you going to the Open Trial in Liverpool near Syracuse, NY?

Nah dude I live in Oregon

[PirateKingAtomsk]

Went to FNM last week , undefeated until top4 , then lost 2-1 against jund midrange. Rakdo's Return ruined my day.

What do we do against that card ? I just figured out i had to cast all my spells as soon as possible trying to race. It almost worked since i won game 2 then lost game 3 topdecking too much lands with him at 5 life .

if you run wild ricochet out of the board its a
pretty nasty blowout against rr at 3+ it just sets them to nothing.

You can't bounce rakdos returns back at them, only copy it. It has the same problem as Sphinx which is why the card is a trap. It's too narrow.

RR does target the player unlike rev so you can throw it back at them along with the copy.

[montu]

MONO RED AGAIN?
YES!

That quite interesting it must be a timezome meta thing, Lazerburn has been telling me many burn players have been switching into RDW or AiR but I've yet to experience anything beside Esper, Ux, Dredge, Mirrors and Bx Devotion.

I play early am my time (10 am GST), and this is what I see.

[Aodh]

Went to FNM last week , undefeated until top4 , then lost 2-1 against jund midrange. Rakdo's Return ruined my day.

What do we do against that card ? I just figured out i had to cast all my spells as soon as possible trying to race. It almost worked since i won
game 2 then lost game 3 topdecking too much lands with him at 5 life .

if you run wild ricochet out of the board its a pretty nasty blowout against rr at 3+ it just sets them to nothing.

You can't bounce rakdos returns back at them, only copy it. It has the same problem as Sphinx which is why the card is a trap. It's too narrow.

RR does target the player unlike rev so you can throw it back at them along with the copy.

It targets an opponent. Your opponent is the source of the first copy, so it has to target you. The second copy you get to choose them. WR seems better against RR than against Sph. Rev., but still pretty narrow.

[montu]

Went to FNM last week , undefeated until top4 , then lost 2-1 against jund midrange. Rakdo's Return ruined my day.

What do we do against that card ? I just figured out i had to cast all my spells as soon as possible trying to race. It almost worked since i won game 2 then lost game 3 topdecking too much lands with him at 5 life .

if you run wild ricochet out of the board its a
pretty nasty blowout against rr at 3+ it just sets them to nothing.

You can't bounce rakdos returns back at them, only copy it. It has the same problem as Sphinx which is why the card is a trap. It's too narrow.

Sphinx says "You gain . . . " i.e., no targets. But RR says, "Target opponent . . ."

[BrainsickHater]

All this talk about RR in the Jund matchup seems pretty silly. The Jund matchup is very good for us, as their manabase kills them half the time and they generally just get off the ground far too slowly. By the time they RR us we should only have a few cards in hand and so should they. They topdeck much worse than us, so even if they have 1-2 cards in hand after they RR us a topdeck war is not the end of the world.

And Wild Ricochet cannot point the original Rakdos Return at our opponent. When we Wild Ricochet their RR, they still have control of it, and we're their only opponent.

[zenbitz]

I just want to throw a shout out to Zem's CFB article here: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles ... -analysis/

Not to blow smoke up your butt but this is a very coherent and well thought out piece. An no mention of "I feel this deck is well positioned in the current meta".

[Purp]

Rakdos Return is not a relevant enough spell to warrant the amount of discussion it is getting.

[montu]

I picked up 3 QPs today with a DE (3-1) and SE (3-0). Here's what I played:

[deck=Montu's Current List]
Creatures (8)
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Spells (29)
3 Chained to the Rocks
2 Toil // Trouble
4 Shock
3 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
4 Skullcrack
4 Boros Charm
3 Warleader's Helix
2 Searing Blood

Lands (23)
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Blood Crypt
4 Temple of Triumph
2 Temple of Silence
4 Mutavault
5 Mountain

Sideboard
1 Chained to the Rocks
1 Toil // Trouble
2 Assemble the Legion
1 Hammer of Purphoros
1 Glare of Heresy
3 Satyr Firedancer
1 Blind Obedience
3 Peak Eruption
2 Anger of the Gods
[/deck]

Some thoughts:

• I had a Ux Devo matchup; watching MDU's video against the same matchup was very valuable. (I tend to forget that I can use Charm to attack into Mutavaults with YP.)
• A few games, casting [card]
  Toil // Trouble[/card] to draw more cards was the deciding factor. In the Ux Devo match, I did it twice, with great results.
• If I'm on the draw against RDW (or other fast aggro), I'll board in Satyr Firedancer and Anger of the Gods. The goal is to use Anger to stabilize and then use Firedancer to keep control. That's how I won the 3rd game of Match 3 of the SE. (I won game 2 of that match hitting him with Peak Eruption. He never got a second Mountain after that.)
• Lands: I've tried a lot of different configurations. This one has worked the best for me, once you get past the mental hurdle of using the shock lands. (Again, watching MDU's videos, I'm getting better at resisting the temptation to play the CIPT land on T1.)
• (And my last random thought - Seriously, why would someone play Thoughtseize against a burn player when they're at 4 life? Are they just giving up?)[/list:
  u]

[Aodh]

Nice read, z.

[Elricity]

Some thoughts:

• (And my last random thought - Seriously, why would someone play Thoughtseize against a burn player when they're at 4 life? Are they just giving up?)

If it's been a turn or two and you haven't tried killing them, they figure it's probably a chain, skullcrack or searing blood or something that it's better to get out of your hand on the chance they can stabilize with a demon or gary. Thoughtsieze is almost never a bad thing to throw at a burn player and one of the first things I ask MBC players that have problems with burn. Whether I am playing against them in a later match depends on whether I tell the truth on playing thoughtsieze or not.

If you have a full set of
cards and have been casting on curve, then yes, I gather they're just conceding but they're dead anyway so they might as well play to an out.

[Self Medicated]

@ Montu - Do you always want to cast Phoenix on turn 3? Just wondering, because if that's the case, 17 red sources seems too few. How has it been working?

[tzir]

Young Pryomancer is so weak to Jace.

It really isn't. A Jace that's +1ing every turn, and then losing that 1 to the Pyromancer itself hitting him, is a Jace that's not drawing cards. A Jace that's not drawing cards is a joke.

[montu]

@ Montu - Do you always want to cast Phoenix on turn 3? Just wondering, because if that's the case, 17 red sources seems too few. How has it been working?

While on occasion I've had some mana clashes (no black, no white, not enough red), on balance I haven't had too many issues. You just have to pay particular attention to the sequence of lands. Usually between the Temples and the Magma Jet, you'll have at least once chance to Scry into an additional red source if you need it.

FWIW, I'm also generally conservative with playing a T1 Mutavault, unless I know I'm set with mana and tempo.

[DXI-Edge]

Here is where I'm at for my list:

[deck]
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix

3 Chained to the Rocks
2 Searing Blood
4 Shock
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Skullcrack
4 Boros Charm
4 Warleader's Helix

3 Mutavault
2 Boros Guildgate
1 Temple of Malice
1 Temple of Silence
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Sacred Foundry
8 Mountain

Sideboard
1 Mutavault
1 Chained to the Rocks
4 Firedrinker Satyr
1 Wear // Tear
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Assemble the Legion
3 Mizzium Mortars
[/deck]

For those of you who can count, thats a 13 card sideboard. I need 2 slots for monsters/mirror/aggro decks.

Any suggestions? So far I'm considering Spark Trooper, Blind Obedience, Peak Eruption, another Wear // Tear, and Anger of the Gods

[Aodh]

2 Blind Obedience would be my picks.

[Elricity]

I'm not a fan of 2 peak eruption, I generally want 3-4 or 0.

Anger is a nonbo with CP and YP as always. I would not even want it vs a BTE all in red deck if that's an indication of how awful I think the card is in this archetype.

I wouldn't rule out a 2nd Chandra either.

[montu]

Here is where I'm at for my list:

For those of you who can count, thats a 13 card sideboard. I need 2 slots for monsters/mirror/aggro decks.

Any suggestions? So far I'm considering Spark Trooper, Blind Obedience, Peak Eruption, another Wear // Tear, and Anger of the Gods

I think you'll get the most mileage out of Anger. It works great against Aggro, can slow down Monsters (kill their mana sources), and can be good in the mirror. It can also get you out of the hexproof bind.

[NerdBoyWonder]

Young Pryomancer is so weak to Jace.

It really isn't. A Jace that's +1ing every turn, and then losing that 1 to the Pyromancer itself hitting him, is a Jace that's not drawing cards. A Jace that's not drawing cards is a joke.

THIS. You want them to not draw cards. YP$ puts them in a tough situation where they are force to defend but need to dig for answers. By doing the above you are negating their plan while keeping control of the match.

[Elricity]

Here is where I'm at for my list:

For those of you who can count, thats a 13 card sideboard. I need 2 slots for monsters/mirror/aggro decks.

Any suggestions? So far I'm considering Spark Trooper, Blind Obedience, Peak Eruption, another Wear // Tear, and Anger of the Gods

I think you'll get the most mileage out of Anger. It works great against Aggro, can slow down Monsters (kill their mana sources), and can be good in the mirror. It can also get you out of the hexproof bind.

I'm going to continue to disagree as I always have. I do not want to sit there and take a
beating hoping to get a 3 for 1 out of anger when I can just slam YP and go to town. If you want a 2 for 1 spell, just run flames.

I could not care less about killing Carytids. I want to kill everything else in that match up and Anger can't do it.

The window of Anger killing a relevant hexproof creature is on turn 2, max. Unfortunately, anger costs 3. Also, they already have to run a lot of wrath protection.

[Elricity]

Young Pryomancer is so weak to Jace.

It really isn't. A Jace that's +1ing every turn, and then losing that 1 to the Pyromancer itself hitting him, is a Jace that's not drawing cards. A Jace that's not drawing cards is a joke.

THIS. You want them to not draw cards. YP$ puts them in a tough situation where they are force to defend but need to dig for answers. By doing the above you are negating their plan
while keeping control of the match.

I know this is Z's argument and sometimes it's right but not always. If they can remove YP soon enough, he might as well have been goblin shortcutter as they are ok being forced to tick their way up to an ultimate. Vice versa, if Jace can get removed quick enough or esper is low enough on life that delaying jace is valid, then YP is powerful. Basically, in this scenario, you need to have a line of play that forces fog to be a bad tactic. Sitting on your ass building a million tokens will get you killed.

[DXI-Edge]

Young Pryomancer is so weak to Jace.

It really isn't. A Jace that's +1ing every turn, and then losing that 1 to the Pyromancer itself hitting him, is a Jace that's not drawing cards. A Jace that's not drawing cards is a joke.

THIS. You want them
to not draw cards. YP$ puts them in a tough situation where they are force to defend but need to dig for answers. By doing the above you are negating their plan while keeping control of the match.

I know this is Z's argument and sometimes it's right but not always. If they can remove YP soon enough, he might as well have been goblin shortcutter as they are ok being forced to tick their way up to an ultimate. Vice versa, if Jace can get removed quick enough or esper is low enough on life that delaying jace is valid, then YP is powerful. Basically, in this scenario, you need to have a line of play that forces fog to be a bad tactic. Sitting on your ass building a million tokens will get you killed.

The only time I have ever even TOUCHED a Jace is when he's plused at 7+ counters and I need to hold it off ultimate.

9 times out of 10, they realise they're screwed if they dont do anything soon and they have to minus, and then we crush
them if they dont find it

[Elricity]

If they're low going into it, I agree. I'm not a fan of letting Jace build if they're still at 16 though and that can happen in these matchups.

Whether I go after Jace generally comes down to whether I have boros charms or mutavaults to be a in a good post verdict/2nd jace position. Also, if I can expend only one burn spell early game to take out Jace, I will. 1 for 1 is to my advantage as they'll gas out if they can't set up draws and land drops. Our card advantage is simply miles better than Esper's in that scenario.

[montu]

I'm going to continue to disagree as I always have. I do not want to sit there and take a beating hoping to get a 3 for 1 out of anger when I can just slam YP and go to town. If you want a 2 for 1 spell, just run flames.

I could not care less about killing Carytids. I want to kill everything else in that match up and Anger can't do it.

The window of Anger killing a relevant hexproof creature is on turn 2, max. Unfortunately, anger costs 3. Also, they already have to run a lot of wrath protection.

Sure, that's fine. Just understand I'm not advocating Anger as a response to hexproof. It's just has a better chance of giving you an out than most other SB cards. If they hit their curve, there's little you can do. If they don't, you have a
chance to slow them down.

With respect to Carytids, it can slow them down, and later in the game, Anger can give you a chance to 1 for 2 their bigger creatures. Again, I'm not saying it's great, but it does have its uses.

With respect to aggro, YP doesn't "go to town" against something like this:

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/229754

In addition, Anger gives you another response to getting overwhelmed against Ux Devo.

I've gone back and forth. It's one of those cards I'd rather have and not need then the other way around.

Mezzel has 4 SB. Evidently he's a decent player. So, perhaps it's not a completely stupid choice.

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/228879

[Elricity]

Yes, that red aggro deck is exactly the deck I was thinking of where I DON'T want Anger. Possibly a playstyle thing.

Though I am glad it's working for Mezzel. You would need 4 of, not 2, for it to be useful vs the red deck you listed though. I put it in the same camp as peak eruption where you either need 3-4 or 0.

[montu]

First time I've faced Ruric.

Too bad he loses.

T1 I kill his Mystic. T3 I blast his Seam Vents. He's hamstrung on mana the rest of the game.

[BrainsickHater]

I don't have much of a clue what the paper meta is like and I'm trying to decide whether Peak Eruption is worth it in the SB at an event like a SCG IQ. I'm in NA if that matters.

[zemanjaski]

Ash Zealot deals 1 dmg / turn against Jace.

YP deals 1 dmg / turn against Jace.

???

[magicdownunder]

Last Time

---

Here is the list I was running last week (I have 5 finishes recorded with it before I made some more adjustments):

[deck=MDU's Barely Boros Burn]Lands 23
7 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
3 Mutavault
1 Boros Guildgate
2 Temple of Silence
2 Temple of Malice

Creatures 8
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Enchantments 3
3 Chained to the Rocks

Burns 26
4 Skullcrack
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
2 Searing Blood
4 Warleader's Helix
4 Shock

Sideboard 15
4 Toil // Trouble
3 Peak Eruptions
3 Satyr firedancer
2 Assemble the Legion
1 Glare of Heresy
1 Mizzium Mortars
1 Chained to the Rocks[/deck]
SE Report 6985077
G1 Bx Devotion vs Young Dancers (MDU&#
41; SE 6985077
G2 Ux Devotion vs Young Dancers (MDU) SE 6985077
G3 Split

SE Report 6988149
G1 Esper Control vs Young Dancers (MDU) SE 6988149
G2 Ux Devotion vs Young Dancers (MDU) SE 6988149
G3 Split

I do have a sideboard plan with explanations written out - which I'll post either sometime after the sets are complete or if I get 9 new subs or 20 new comments from different people (yeah yeah, I'm fishing for higher view count - whatever works).

SE Report 6989030[/u:
3s8ik8sd]
G1 Bx Devotion vs Young Dancers MDU SE 6989030
G2 Dredge vs Young Dancers MDU SE 6989030
G3 Bx Devotion vs Young Dancers MDU SE 6989030

I highly recommend reading some of the comments posted in the earlier videos - since they reminded/taught me new things which I didn't notice.

(p.s. I'm still working on that DtR add, so forgive the horrible mess in G2 & G3).

[zemanjaski]

Honestly Mezzel is an average player; I know the guy quite well; he just plays an insane amount.

[TBuzzsaw]

3-1 at TNM. The single Blind Obedience went to work for me tonight. In one game I was mana flooding pretty badly but thanks to BO I was able to extort six times, where the lifegain and the life damage was what won me the game.

My only lost tonight was against Bant Superfriends where I mana flooded when I got him down to 5 both times. It didn't help that he sided Nylea's Bow either.

[zemanjaski]

I'm going to continue to disagree as I always have. I do not want to sit there and take a beating hoping to get a 3 for 1 out of anger when I can just slam YP and go to town. If you want a 2 for 1 spell, just run flames.

I could not care less about killing Carytids. I want to kill everything else in that match up and Anger can't do it.

The window of Anger killing a relevant hexproof creature is on turn 2, max. Unfortunately, anger costs 3. Also, they already have to run a lot of wrath protection.

Sure, that's fine. Just understand I'm not advocating Anger as a response to hexproof.
It's just has a better chance of giving you an out than most other SB cards. If they hit their curve, there's little you can do. If they don't, you have a chance to slow them down.

With respect to Carytids, it can slow them down, and later in the game, Anger can give you a chance to 1 for 2 their bigger creatures. Again, I'm not saying it's great, but it does have its uses.

With respect to aggro, YP doesn't "go to town" against something like this:

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/229754

In addition, Anger gives you another response to getting overwhelmed against Ux Devo.

I've gone back and forth. It's one of those cards I'd rather have and not need then the other way around.

Mezzel has 4 SB. Evidently he's a decent player. So, perhaps it's not a completely stupid choice.

nhttp://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/228879

That's exactly the sort of deck YP crushes.

[Kaitscralt]

Honestly Mezzel is an average player; I know the guy quite well; he just plays an insane amount.

alt account?

[Kaitscralt]

I think the Jace debate is a bit tired at this point. Pro players have written about and commented on that Jace is one of the best cards against Burn and my results have led me to the same conclusion, and it's been a couple months now without any change. A few players in this thread hold an ill-informed opinion about Jace -- if they haven't admitted the truth yet, they won't budge at the end of a season. I only wish I was facing opponents as bad as you (apparently).

[BiddingMaster]

This is the deck im rocking right now. I have placed 3-1 in the three daily events and 0-4-0 in four 8 mans.
[deck]creatures

4 chandra's phoenix

spells

2 shock
3 searing blood
4 warleader's helix
4 magma jet
4 lightning strike
4 boros charm
4 toil // trouble
2 chained to the rocks
4 skullcrack
1 chandra, pyromaster

lands

3 blood crypt
5 mountain
2 boros guildgate
4 temple of triumph
2 temple of silence
4 mutavault
4 sacred foundry

sideboard

1 chandra, pyromaster
2 chained to the rocks
3 peak eruption
3 mizzium mortars
2 assemble the legion
3 blind obedience
1 wear // tear[/deck]

So far with this deck the only matchup that I think I need to switch up the sideboard for is uw control. I have lost to it every match except for one and I loose because
fiendslayer paladin blanks my phoenix. Im not liking the peak eruptions so I was debating on this -1 wear/tear -3 peak eruption for 2 glare but I dont know what do to with the other 2 sideboard slots. I think the 2 glare plus the 4 chained after board vs fiend slayer paladin/ detention sphere are good and I don't think I need to devote any more slots to beating uw. I would like some imput on what the last two cards should be. I was thinking one more assemble and mortars. I see alot of uw not esper/mb/bw and a splattering of other stuff like the mirror/ud/jund monsters/dredge.

[magicdownunder]

So you 3-1 three daily events and 3-0'ed four 8-Mans?

I'll say your doing very well, I'll recommend running 2x glares if FSP is causing your problems, DON'T run 4x Chains and 2x Glares because you'll dilute the overall plan allowing them to draw out a victory.

If your facing UW rather then esper I recommend trying out SBD, it can come in against Ux Devotion, Gr Monsters and Dredge as well.

EDIT: hang on your closed? We play in similar timezone how on earth are you dodging esper? I can't recommend SBD during my timezone so maybe some Ash Zealots in the SB (sounds odds, but they're VERY VERY good vs FSP).