[Primer] Boros Burn

[zemanjaski]

What matchups are you bringing in the chandra vs, Z? Also must this deck run mutavault to give it that much more power? they are so damn pricey for us casuals x, been trying your latest decklist on OCTGN, will try to post results later.

Hey buddy.

Its more by feel, but mostly control decks of any variety or small creature decks (allows you to 1-for-1 everything they play, then stick chandra and draw cards to win match).

Unfortunately, the deck needs at least 3 Mutavault. They're just so important to how the deck functions.

[zemanjaski]

I actually don't think that I have seen a Fiendslayer or Blind Obedience out of Esper in the last few days, which would make Wear // Tear overall better.

Fair enough, I haven't played since Saturday. When I was playing, I always felt glare had a wider selection of matches it was useful. Then again, my rating isn't as high so I'm probably being paired with more white weenie players and such.

So, 9 duals, 2 silence, 3 vault, 1 malice?

Back when I was running toil, 4 black was enough to cast toil when I really needed it. 3 probably is fine as well.

That said, I'm surprised it'
s working for you in Bx as it plays into their 8 discard spell plan. The mirror I'm slightly less surprised although you have to get that off before they get to 4 mana or they can hand dump you, usually.

I prefer 10 duals for the 19th red source (8 Mountain, 2 Boros Guildgate, 4 Sacred Foundry, 1 Temple of Malice, 4 Temple of Triumph).

I would contend the opposite of the spell playing into their discard plan; why? It doesn't just have a damage mode! You can draw 2 cards, which is an excellent way to fight discard (that's why control runs the horrid Divination and MBC sideboards in Read the Bones for the mirror) and the card is a strong top deck ~ increasing the power of your deck's topdecks is really strong too (which is why Assemble is sooooooo gooooood) since discard cannot hit it.

[zemanjaski]

Ok, I have to ask again about wear // tear. If you're not running it for Bx to use the dual mode, what are you using it in that revoke or glare aren't obscenely better choices? The instant speed matters that much?

I'm trying out both and am torn on the issue. I've never used the dual on wear // tear. Exiling isn't particularly relevant, (Xenagos, Erebos, and Thasa being exceptions but if I'm worried about exiling them I tend to be behind enough it doesn't matter) for revoke over wear // tear; and online I've been playing against Bx more than Esper or UW. The dual effect is
relevant against Uw/U devotion as well and has been relevant for me, though only one side or another has mattered at any particular time in my games. I feel, I don't know, that wear // tear is more flexible overall because of the instant factor and only costs one for the most used half. If Esper was more prominent I would use Glare but I'm opting for wear // tear at the moment and thinking about finding room for a second in SB against Hexproof if nothing else.

Welcome! Thank you for the analysis, I agree with your conclusions

[Elricity]

Ok, I have to ask again about wear // tear. If you're not running it for Bx to use the dual mode, what are you using it in that revoke or glare aren't obscenely better choices? The instant speed matters that much?

I'm trying out both and am torn on the issue. I've never used the dual on wear // tear. Exiling isn't particularly relevant, (Xenagos, Erebos, and Thasa being exceptions but if I'm worried about exiling them I tend to be behind enough it doesn't matter) for revoke over wear // tear; and online I've been playing against Bx more than Esper or UW. The dual effect is relevant
against Uw/U devotion as well and has been relevant for me, though only one side or another has mattered at any particular time in my games. I feel, I don't know, that wear // tear is more flexible overall because of the instant factor and only costs one for the most used half. If Esper was more prominent I would use Glare but I'm opting for wear // tear at the moment and thinking about finding room for a second in SB against Hexproof if nothing else.

I was mostly kidding on revoke. The only god I want to hit is Ephara which glare hits. If esper isn't running fiendslayer or thune, then yes, wear is better. Basically, I want glare vs GW, WW, Uw Devotion. At Z's rating, he probably doesn't see the first two ever. At my rating, I definitely do. That's probably why the difference in opinion between Z and I on this. None of the artifacts intimidate me enough to want wear on the off chance they draw one. I have a general hatred of wear//tear after it sitting in my hand too much though.
That may be due to me using it in metas I shouldn't have. Glare on the other hand, always has good targets when I board it in.

[zemanjaski]

I think I will continue to use Asuka sleeves for my YP elemental tokens and Faye Valentine sleeves for my Assemble the Legion tokens.

[zemanjaski]

Sp to recap, I want from every pilot a brief discussion on these topics asap:

- 4th mutavault vs 1st Temple of Silence
- 3rd assemble the legion vs 4th mutavault (sideboard)
- wear // tear vs glare of heresy (sideboard)
- viashino firstblade vs toil // trouble; value across the meta to justify sideboard inclusion (sideboard)

Arrigato !

[zemanjaski]

Remember that time I beat an MBC player who drew three demons and 2 gray merchant plus two staff of the death magus and a whip of erobos?

I can never be defeated! /Asuka

[JohnnyfnB]

Sp to recap, I want from every pilot a brief discussion on these topics asap:

- 4th mutavault vs 1st Temple of Silence
- 3rd assemble the legion vs 4th mutavault (sideboard)
- wear // tear vs glare of heresy (sideboard)
- viashino firstblade vs toil // trouble; value across the meta to justify sideboard inclusion (sideboard)

Arrigato !

1. Temple of Silence (spoke my piece earlier)
2. Is there a massive increase in MBC? If so, 3rd Assemble, if not, 4th Mutavault
3. Wear/Tear has more utility, is cheaper, is an instant and can potentially 2 for 1 ex:
Bident and D Sphere out.
4. Until you get a very strong feeling that BO is on the decline, I say Toil/Trouble. I am to Toil/Trouble as you are VFB. Also, mid to late game we can Toil ourselves to draw 2 lose 2 (if we need more gas) and then Trouble our opponent or they draw 2 lose 2 and then burn them for whatever is in their hand. Card draw is nonexistent in red, except for Chandra 0 ability and Wild Guess.

Skullcracking a desperate main phase Sphinxs Rev, then fused Toil/Trouble them is the Mount Everest of insult and injury!

[dpaine88]

Remember that time I beat an MBC player who drew three demons and 2 gray merchant plus two staff of the death magus and a whip of erobos?

I can never be defeated! /Asuka

excuse me, but how the fuck did you pull that off?

[Elricity]

quote

---

I actually don't think that I have seen a Fiendslayer or Blind Obedience out of Esper in the last few days, which would make Wear // Tear overall better.

Fair enough, I haven't played since Saturday. When I was playing, I always felt glare had a wider selection of matches it was useful. Then again, my rating isn't as high so I'm probably being paired with more white weenie players and such.
n
So, 9 duals, 2 silence, 3 vault, 1 malice?

Back when I was running toil, 4 black was enough to cast toil when I really needed it. 3 probably is fine as well.

That said, I'm surprised it's working for you in Bx as it plays into their 8 discard spell plan. The mirror I'm slightly less surprised although you have to get that off before they get to 4 mana or they can hand dump you, usually.

I prefer 10 duals for the 19th red source (8 Mountain, 2 Boros Guildgate, 4 Sacred Foundry, 1 Temple of Malice, 4 Temple of Triumph).

I would contend the opposite of the spell playing into their discard plan; why? It doesn't just have a damage mode! You can draw 2 cards, which is an excellent way to fight discard (that's why control runs the horrid Divination and MBC sideboards in Read the Bones for the mirror) and the card is a strong top deck ~ increasing the power of your deck's topdecks is really strong too (which is why Assemble is sooooooo
gooooood) since discard cannot hit it.

Oh, I agree that toil is a good spell in Bx, my concern is the mana base. I headdesk any time RB suggests read the bones over toil/trouble for that reason. I played it for about 2 months with 4 black sources and 12 sources of scry and even then I had times I was stuck with trouble vs a Bx player drawing 2 cards a turn and still staying at a near empty hand. It was particularly awful when it was in my opening hand and they discarded all of my action leaving me with "sorcery: expensive lava spike". It got bad enough that I stopped boarding it in vs them. I can try it again now that I've gotten better about removing the jank from my deck. Still, that's my initial concern.

1) Temple of silence. I've preferred an 11th white source for a while.
2) 4th vault. I've preferred 24 lands for a while.
3) Glare.
4) Undecided. Trouble was underwhelming for me sometimes, amazing other times.

@Dpaine: 2 Assembles in play
and about 24 tokens.

[Elricity]

On that note, I'm assuming you leave t/t in even on the draw?

[zemanjaski]

[zemanjaski]

[Valdarith]

Ok, I have to ask again about wear // tear. If you're not running it for Bx to use the dual mode, what are you using it in that revoke or glare aren't obscenely better choices? The instant speed matters that much?

Point received.

Just killed someone on turn 28 with a fused Toil // Trouble (hit him for 2, I draw 2, he conceded at 1 life).

I'm confused. If he was at three life, why didn't you target him with both sides?

[Elricity]

Stop staring at me with the crazy eyes!

[Elricity]

Ok, I have to ask again about wear // tear. If you're not running it for Bx to use the dual mode, what are you using it in that revoke or glare aren't obscenely better choices? The instant speed matters that much?

Point received.

Just killed someone on turn 28 with a fused Toil // Trouble (hit him for 2, I draw 2, he conceded at 1 life).

I'm confused. If he was at three life, why didn't you target him
with both sides?

A valid reason is if you're opponent has a good chance of any kind of lifegain. I've made the mistake of going for the kill more than once and it cost me the game by feeding them 2 cards instead of me.

Or he screwed up =p.

[zemanjaski]

Ok, I have to ask again about wear // tear. If you're not running it for Bx to use the dual mode, what are you using it in that revoke or glare aren't obscenely better choices? The instant speed matters that much?

Point received.

Just killed someone on turn 28 with a fused Toil // Trouble (hit him for 2, I draw 2, he conceded at 1 life).

I'm confused. If he was at three life, why didn't you target him
with both sides?

Playing around Devour Flesh.

[DixieFlatline]

...aaaand instantly I'm sold on Assemble.

ASSEMBRUUUUUUU

[Jediace42]

Pictures like that make me sad that I have yet to actually ever cast assemble yet.... It always gets seized or I just never draw it...

[rage_jl]

Sp to recap, I want from every pilot a brief discussion on these topics asap:

- 4th mutavault vs 1st Temple of Silence
- 3rd assemble the legion vs 4th mutavault (sideboard)
- wear // tear vs glare of heresy (sideboard)
- viashino firstblade vs toil // trouble; value across the meta to justify sideboard inclusion (sideboard)

Arrigato !

-Temple all the way for now, your original reason of 3 guildgates vs 4th mutavault still stands, it's not the best when you draw two early in too many games. Guildgate still has an argument, consistency vs scry...
-I like the 3rd assemble against the large amount of black floating around and you can scry away extras if
it doesn't fit the games state or play two, twice the fun.
-I said my opinion on wear // tear earlier and still feel that way, chains kill fiendslayer and you can outplay or kill BO with wear // tear
-Toil // Trouble works in more matches than the firstblade, firstblade if in a more competitive environment (with plenty of control) but on MTGO I think toil // trouble is more versatile and is as effective on turn three as the firstblade against control. I play it on the play and side them back out on the draw in some games for an easy 5 or 6.

[Valdarith]

You only have to live the Assemble dream once to never want to play without it in your sideboard.

[Elricity]

I played the assemble nightmare. Landed assemble, was doing good, drew nothing but lands, 2 bileblights on my tokens and demon kills me because I couldn't counter the stupid thing. And then I killed people with it.

[BiddingMaster]

when you said you wanted feedback from all pilots did you mean from certain people or anyone who is playing the test deck?

[Taimoor]

I am one of those annoying guests that Zem keeps yelling at, but no longer!

I wanted to throw out a side board card for further testing/theory crafting/instant shut down. I have played a bit with a single Spirit of the Labyrinth in my SB for B/x and U/w/x control. I have only drawn it twice. First time it ate a removal spell for my YP$ against MBC. And the next time it hosed an Esper player from untapping and getting much of any value from a Sphinx Rev (life gain wasn't a big deal). It has added value in that Chandra's +0 gives us card advantage and this might be a factor if more than just a singleton of each were to be played.

I'm really enjoying playing Burn in Standard!

[Toddington]

I'm mostly writing this for myself, but here's my manabase breakdown if anyone is interested.

No Toil//Trouble
I'm working with the assumption that we want at least; 19 red, 10 white, and 3 Mutavault. This is real easy to achieve without any black splash.

[deck]RW Burn manabase[/deck]

Where the unknown is either the; 4th Mutavault, 3rd Guildgate, 10th Mountain, 1st red Temple, or 1st white Temple. You can cut Mountains down to 6* for an equivalent amount of red temples, if you are a complete baller.


Toil//Trouble in Main or Side
The black splash comes at the expense of Mountains/Boros Guildgate. Temple of Silence is now the prefered 23rd land in the above scenario. (*) The limiting criteria are mountains for Chained to the Rocks, and the amount of comes
into play tapped lands. Based on Karsten's article (I'm assuming everyone has it bookmarked by now), we want 10 "mountains" to cast CttR by T5 most of the time. This is where Blood Crypt is better than Temple of Malice.

[deck]RWb Burn manabase[/deck]

Where 4 of the 8 unknowns are any combination of Mountains and Blood Crypts, and the other 4 any combination of Mountains, Temple of Malices, Boros Guildgates, or the 4th Mutavault. Going for Mutavault means you have 18 red, which is passable I suppose? There's wiggle room for the Mutavault if Temple of Silence turns into a Boros Guildgate I guess.

I guess the split you choose depends on;

• How much you value Toil vs. not dying to your lands
  How much you value Mutavault vs. casting your spells
  How much you value Scry vs. your hate of CIPT
  How greedy you are generally

Have I
made any grievous errors? I think the 4th Mutavault is quite greedy if you want black, but could see playing some number of Blood Crypt.

How about...

---

[deck=Toddington's RWb Burn manabase]
Land (23)
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
3 Mutavault
1 Temple of Silence
1 Boros Guildgate

6 Mountain
2 Blood Crypt
2 Temple of Malice
[/deck]
I don't know how to value Toil, it seems pretty marginal. I think I actually want the 11th white source here. I'm not on the T//T plan yet anyway, but I think I might start playing some red temples for value.

[Taimoor]

- 4th mutavault vs 1st Temple of Silence
Scryland feels like the right call. Digging for single card SB answers can turn Ls into Ws

- 3rd assemble the legion vs 4th mutavault (sideboard)
3rd Assemble if MBD players still want to sit on the Big Black Rod. 4t vault if its a passing fancy.

- wear // tear vs glare of heresy (sideboard)
I prefer Glare. Dsphere Fiendslayer and CttR are the only white cards I fear but we get the added bonus of killing Elspeth. Sorc speed can be annoying though.

- viashino firstblade vs toil // trouble; value across the meta to justify sideboard inclusion (sideboard)
Not a fan of Toil // Trouble. If BO is gone (I haven't seen it in a while) then Firstblade seems really well positioned again.

[mutantcrock]

Is Silence a card that could work in the burn shell? It seems like stalling most creature decks a turn from advancing the board would be game over to this deck. It could be useful against control as well.

[Aodh]

Z, I read that you take out all 8 creatures in the mirror now. How has that been working? Seems really sketchy IMO since you're basically forcing a racing situation every game. Maybe they'll have a dead CttR or something, but unless you crack their mountains and ACTUALLY lock them out of the game, how does this strategy objectively edge the match-up in our favor? It seems like Phoenixes and YP$ can still just dominate the MU. If you really wanna' go the inevitability route, wouldn't Assemble alongside Chandra be good?

[zemanjaski]

when you said you wanted feedback from all pilots did you mean from certain people or anyone who is playing the test deck?

Everyone's opinion and experience is valuable.

[zemanjaski]

Z, I read that you take out all 8 creatures in the mirror now. How has that been working? Seems really sketchy IMO since you're basically forcing a racing situation every game. Maybe they'll have a dead CttR or something, but unless you crack their mountains and ACTUALLY lock them out of the game, how does this strategy objectively edge the match-up in our favor? It seems like Phoenixes and YP$ can still just dominate the MU. If you really wanna' go the inevitability route, wouldn't Assemble alongside Chandra be good?

It wasn't great but I wanted to test it.

[Aodh]

It seems like it'd just be a handicap, IMO. You'd be guaranteeing that their DRAWN chains would be wasted, but yours might also be dead if they see all spells. And if they get to TP$+2 spells territory, you probably just can't win. Just food for thought.

[zemanjaski]

So I value the 5th and 6th scry effects more highly than the 20th red source and 12th white source ~ which we could have if we just ran 4 Boros Guildgate + 4 Sacred Foundry + 4 Temple of Triumph. Comments.

[Elricity]

Is Silence a card that could work in the burn shell? It seems like stalling most creature decks a turn from advancing the board would be game over to this deck. It could be useful against control as well.

I won't lie that I have always wanted to try it but it would need to fit into a creature shell so you have enough repeatable damage to win and force your opponent into sorcery speed answers. A burn deck needs all its cards to do actual things and unless you have YP in play, silence isn't doing that. Orim's chant was such a more powerful spell.

I did kill hexproof last season with a singleton I was trying out at a PTQ. He asked the judge if I could be disqualified for playing bad cards. He was kidding. Mostly.

I now want to design some
sort of janky deck using 4 main silences. Mono black would pick it apart though.

Z, the deck doesn't need 12 white sources and I'm pretty confident it works fine on 19 red. Don't jam in 10 tap lands. (Ignore me. But still, no, 4 gates is overkill unless you're trying to push [mana]WW[/mana] spells all of a sudden.)

[Toddington]

Assuming 3 Mutavault, the 4th Guildgate doesn't make any sense as having a Temple of Silence over it gives you 19 red and still 12 white.

With 4 Mutavault you need the Guildgate for red.

How many Mutavault, Scry lands, and respective coloured sources are you after?

[Jediace42]

So whats the opinion on the extra scrys then? are they in regardless of toil//trouble? or are they only for the black mana?

[mutantcrock]

Is Silence a card that could work in the burn shell? It seems like stalling most creature decks a turn from advancing the board would be game over to this deck. It could be useful against control as well.

I won't lie that I have always wanted to try it but it would need to fit into a creature shell so you have enough repeatable damage to win and force your opponent into sorcery speed answers. A burn deck needs all its cards to do actual things and unless you have YP in play, silence isn't doing that. Orim's chant was such a more powerful spell.

I did kill hexproof last season
with a singleton I was trying out at a PTQ. He asked the judge if I could be disqualified for playing bad cards. He was kidding. Mostly.

I now want to design some sort of janky deck using 4 main silences. Mono black would pick it apart though.

Z, the deck doesn't need 12 white sources and I'm pretty confident it works fine on 19 red. Don't jam in 10 tap lands. (Ignore me. But still, no, 4 gates is overkill unless you're trying to push [mana]WW[/mana] spells all of a sudden.)

I guess I'm thinking of the R/G and Jund monster matches where a turn 3/4 Silence on their upkeep would essentially force them to pass the turn and give us another draw for lethal burn prior to them getting their big threats out and putting us on a clock. I know full well that I am probably way off here but as a learning exercise could someone please explain why this would be bad.

[Crims0n]

messing around with a manabase like this. The extra scrylands is cool and putting pressure on your opponent to put you on certain cards is always fun lol. still a work in progress though.

4 Temple of Triumph
4 Sacred Foundry
8 Mountain
2 Mutavault
2 Boros Guildgate
1 Temple of Malice
1 Temple of Abandon
1 Temple of Enlightenment

[zemanjaski]

RE: Silence

Mostly because you need Silence to buy you a turn to draw a card with which to kill them, when Silence could have just been that card itself; what if you're in top deck mode? What if you draw it a turn too late?

[Elricity]

Is Silence a card that could work in the burn shell? It seems like stalling most creature decks a turn from advancing the board would be game over to this deck. It could be useful against control as well.

I won't lie that I have always wanted to try it but it would need to fit into a creature shell so you have enough repeatable damage to win and force your opponent into sorcery speed answers. A burn deck needs all its cards
to do actual things and unless you have YP in play, silence isn't doing that. Orim's chant was such a more powerful spell.

I did kill hexproof last season with a singleton I was trying out at a PTQ. He asked the judge if I could be disqualified for playing bad cards. He was kidding. Mostly.

I now want to design some sort of janky deck using 4 main silences. Mono black would pick it apart though.

Z, the deck doesn't need 12 white sources and I'm pretty confident it works fine on 19 red. Don't jam in 10 tap lands. (Ignore me. But still, no, 4 gates is overkill unless you're trying to push [mana]WW[/mana] spells all of a sudden.)

I guess I'm thinking of the R/G and Jund monster matches where a turn 3/4 Silence on their upkeep would essentially force them to pass the turn and give us another draw for lethal burn prior to them getting their big threats out and putting us on a clock. I know full well that I am probably way off here
but as a learning exercise could someone please explain why this would be bad.

You don't start the game with 11 cards in hand and aren't killing people on turn 4-5. Also, jund has instant speed removals it can cast instead of playing creatures which might very well be what it wants to do so all you did was discard a card.

Also, to be sure to land an early white spell, you really want a land base of at least 14 white and there isn't a tier 1 deck right now that does it.

Also, all the decks you want to do it to, GR, mono U, etc have a couple of early plays that don't make silencing them necessarily letting you push through damage (carytid and frostburn).

Put another way, what are you doing on turns 1-4 that makes them not being able to cast on their main phase a game changer? Uw devotion or white weenie are candidates for making the spell usable.

A control deck doesn't want to use the spell because it would rather verdict, etc. It stops BTE plays and...that's about it.
There's no combo to break up right now.

Z, he wants to use it as a tempo card, not a topdeck card. I think he's trying to live some sort of "can I win if my opponent can't cast spells between turns 3-5" dream.

[Jediace42]

messing around with a manabase like this. The extra scrylands is cool and putting pressure on your opponent to put you on certain cards is always fun lol. still a work in progress though.

4 Temple of Triumph
4 Sacred Foundry
8 Mountain
2 Mutavault
2 Boros Guildgate
1 Temple of Malice
1 Temple of Abandon
1 Temple of Enlightenment

if we are able to splash into green, even off a couple scrys only makes me want to consider destructive revelry as a sb option. 2 damage instant kill your d sphere seems pretty good for us, if we can cast it