Primer: R/w/x Aggro

[montu]

No, I missed it. Is it in this thread?

His CFB videos?

http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/c ... -rw-aggro/

http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/c ... d-rw-burn/

Also, nice vids montu.

Thanks.

One thing I should mention for those not aware, I'm kinda an old guy (Alpha came out when I was in graduate school lol), and I squeeze in MTG between a demanding professional job and a family. So I hope you're forgiving when I ask some
clueless questions now and then.

Not that this forum isn't excellent and highly rewarding. I just personally hate not being on top of things, and not knowing things I should be aware of.

[Toddington]

It's better to ask stupid questions than make stupid mistakes!

[montu]

It's better to ask stupid questions than make stupid mistakes!

I am adept at both, thank you.

[dauntless268]

Montu, I'm interested in your take on this. I loved to play Firedancer in Zemajanki's first burn list, unfortunately it got the axe after a few iterations , so maybe this is an alternative...

A few thoughts if I may:

1. With Burn in general and Searing Blood in particular getting more popular, how good is Firedrinker Satyr? Searing Blood him causes you massive damage
2. With 4 Helix, is it worth going to 23 land? If you relegate FDS to the SB, you could run the same manabase as them, which has proven to be ultra consistent (3 Muta, 3 GG, 4 Temple, 4 Foundry, 9 Mountain)
3. As Valdarith pointed out like 5 times in the burn thread, if you run Searing Blood, then consider running shock as well so you can double up to kill 4 toughness creatures as early as t3

He's my take on a slightly different 24 land version, SB still rather
unrefined

[deck]Rw Aggro[/deck]

It may well be that -1 Mutavault -3 Dragons +4 Viashino Firstblade in the MD is better. I will try to test both iterations. Is there any matchup where you don't like Firstblade G1?

Thanks for your thoughts and comments, others as well. I agree with MDU that we may have given up on RW Aggro a little too quickly after rotation...

[montu]

Conceptually, I like shock, since it is mana efficient. But when I look at the metagame, I'm not seeing the potential to exploit it.

MonoB Devotion - It will be very hard to get a Firedancer to stick around turn 2, so you won't be able to do a turn 3 kill of a Nightveil Specter with burn redirect. Firedancer isn't coming out until turn 4 with this deck. (It's nice for killing Pack Rats. But that's not enough justification for its inclusion.)

Orzhov Control - Pretty much the same thing as MonoB.

Esper Control - Firedancer and Shock are both terrible.

UW Control - Firedancer and Shock are both terrible.

Uw Devotion - I'm thinking the Firedancer is a target for Rapid Hypridization, and it is hard to pull off burn in a mana-efficient way with Judge's Familiar on the board.
Again, I think Firedancer is turn 4 here.

Anything Red - Firedancer aint gonna happen.

GR / Jund Monsters - Okay, I think you could make a case here for sneaking a Firedancer on the board turn 2.

Selesnya Aggro - Finally, we get to a deck where I think it's almost always safe to play Firedancer on turn 2. And I think Shock is pretty good here too, since it takes out Experiment One, Soldier of the Pantheon, Banisher Priest straight out. And you can double up to kill Fleecemane Lion, Brimaz, Loxodon Smiter, and Advent of the Wurm.

If I started losing to a lot of Monsters and GW Aggro, I'd definitely consider Shock.

[montu]

There's too much [mana]B[/mana] removal for me to advocate running Stormbreath Dragon MB. (MDU suggested moving it to SB and I have to agree.)

I find myself boarding in Dragons far less than I thought I would, online or IRL.

[montu]

It's a good question if this is the best fit.

On the one hand, I really like the statement this card makes: "I'm so B.A. I'll hurt me just to hurt you!"

On the other hand, I find myself boarding it out frequently. And don't find myself pumping it hardly ever.

I'd love to hear other perspectives.

[montu]

My personal belief is you gotta get it "about right". Adding or removing a land moves the stats in such a small amount that you'd have to play dozens of games (at least) to notice a difference. Having an extra land in the SB (like I do) is more psychological than anything else.

Of course, I do believe there is an exactly optimal setup for lands. It's just very hard to determine correctly.

I generally like to run on the "round down" side of things. I'd rather be forced to mulligan a 1-land hand than try to decide whether to keep a 5-land hand.

[dauntless268]

Many thanks for your detailed reply, Montu!

Shock
With or without SFD, you will have to double burn creatures sometimes. Shock is often the most efficient burnspell for that. Plus kills a mana dork t1. Plus allows you to rebuy and cast Phoenix on t4. In short, it's pretty versatile...

Stormbreath Dragon
I'm not sure Black Devo runs too much removal for him. He can't be killed by BB which is a plus. Also the fact that they can't really let any of your early creatures (incl. Phoenix and SFD) alive means you have a chance they are out of removal when you drop SBD. If not, it's at least a decent reply to Gary when they are tapped out. Post board he comes out obviously.
One plus of SBD is when you get into the situation where you have to use your burn on your opp's creatures not to
fall behind on the board too much, SBD can still win you the game, the other creatures often can't.
One disadvantage I see is that SBD makes your scry decisions harder. Say you're at 4 land and see a land: you may put it on the bottom and then end up drawing SBD or put it on top and never draw SBD.

Lands
Very interesting thought re: mull at 5 vs.1, never occurred to me. Given however that SFD is often a t4 play, you really wanna curve out at 4 and that's better at (at least) 23 lands I would say

Viashiono Firstblade
Can you say a little bit how he feels g1 against the various matchups? Haven't played the card md so would be keen to hear!

Hope it's not just us alone on the thread Would be amazing if someone from the Burn thread could chime in, as the two builds are actually not that far apart (basically Skullcrack vs. Firstblade/SBD,
Shock vs. FDS).

[LaZerBurn]

No, you're not alone, I still check the thread and watch all of Montu's vids, which I'm really enjoying Here's a thought from the burn thread for you dauntless Why not just run Burn?

As you rightly point out the builds are very close, your 75 is only 5 cards away from Zem's latest list; +1 Mountain +3 SBD +1 Glare Of Heresy -1 Viashino Firstblade -1 Firedrinker Satyr -2 Blind Obedience -1 Shock. The Burn list is without doubt a Tier One list, it's now 6.25% of the meta on MTGO, Redzone just took done a PE with it, Zem has 58 QP with it so far this season. I know why I prefer the Burn lists; for example I'd rather have Skullcrack MD Vs B and Esper than SBD, keeps the
curve down too. What specific match ups do you feel your build is better in?

[LaZerBurn]

While I'm here dauntless

Firedrinker Satyr Awesome Vs Control, good Vs MonoB but with Burn everywhere he's better in the SB IMHO

Shock For 1 mana you do 2 damage (10% of your opps life) and quite often you get to buy back a Phoenix. It doubles up to kill BBV and Ghost Dad, kills Rats and LBZ, is amazing Vs random aggro, kills mana dorks, doubles up to kill Courser, kills early Oozes, kills Cloudfin, Familiar and Tidebinder, kills Mutavaults. It's not the best card but I don't think it's ever terrible


SBD I love him but what is he good against right now? Even if he survives Vs MonoB Skullcrack is just better right now It's better Vs BW and Control and Burn too which amounts to over 50% of the MTOG meta

[dauntless268]

Just exploring alternatives, LaZer. As I said, I'm not sold on SBD MD and Firstblade is surely better than SBD vs Esper and Bx as you rightly point out. I do like SBD against GR, though, as well as generally the ability to play 24 lands.

EDIT: Skullcrack definitely has the best flavor text, which I know is important for you as well

[Crims0n]

[deck=MDU's Dancing Burns]Lands 22
10 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
2 Mutavault
2 Boros Guildgate

Creatures 20
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Satyr Firedancer
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Burns 16
4 Searing Blood
4 Shock
4 Lightning Strike
4 Boros Charm

Enchantments 02
2 Chained to the Rocks

Sideboard 15
2 Warleader's Helix
3 Peak Eruption
4 Skullcrack
2 Blind Obedience
2 Chained to the Rocks
2 Viashino Firstblade[/deck]

I originally had 1x Lands and 4x WLH but I notice that Gr, Jund and Naya run enough mountains for me to LD thus I went with 3x PE.

....I proceed to go 3-0 beating Burn, Esper Control and Split - I did use PE on burn but it didn't feel very powerful (but that was
because he wasn't having any issues hitting lands).

What do you lot think is 4x WLH and 1x Land is better then 2x WLH and 3x PE?

have anymore results with this deck MDU? I think it looks great, I'm gonna be running it for the next week.

[magicdownunder]

The deck is soft to Gx, if you keep facing Bx Devotion, BW Control and UWx Control you'll be solid though

[Valdarith]

I'm running Firedrinker Satyr in my PyroBlack list. It's a liability against burn but I like it against other decks. It can be a problem against aggro decks but if I lose it's not by the 2-3 points I'm taking from him.

[magicdownunder]

I found old games I've forgot to upload (about four of them running this archetype - two with this list I posted below):

[deck=Ben Lundgren's Rw Aggro, PTQ Salt Lake 1st Place]
Creatures (20)
4 Firedrinker Satyr
2 Rakdos Cackler
2 Gore-House Chainwalker
4 Viashino Firstblade
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Spark Trooper

Spells (18)
4 Chained to the Rocks
4 Boros Charm
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
2 Skullcrack

Land (22)
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
3 Mutavault
9 Mountain
2 Plains

Sideboard (15)
1 Electrickery
2 Satyr Firedancer
4 Searing Blood
2 Skullcrack
4 Boros Reckoner
2 Toil // Trouble[/deck]

I can't recall if it was a 75/75 match but I'm sure it was quite close:

Standard Elimination Report (Event 6820742)
Standard Elimination R1 Rw Aggro vs Bx Devotion Event
6820742
Standard Elimination R2 Rw Aggro vs Esper Control Event 6820742
Standard Elimination R3 Split

[montu]

Been a bit busy lately, so skipped recording a few matches. Of the last 4 I'm 3-1, bring me to 21-4.

The three I didn't record were:
- vs B Aggro - 2-1
- vs Rw Burn - 0-2 << Hence the changes below!
- vs Esper Midrange - 2-1

Because of the concern of growing Rw Burn popularity, I made a few changes:
- Moved 2 Chained to the Rocks from SB to MB
- Moved 4 Firedrinker Satyr from MB to SB
- Moved 4 Skullcrack from SB to MB
- Removed 2 Warleaders Helix from MB
- Added 2 Blind Obedience to the SB

Here's the first match with this change (pretty easy 2-Person-Queue before I was out the door for work):

Rw Aggro/Burn vs Rw Aggro - Result 2-0 - Match 12

[montu]

Please . . . someone tell me it's normal to have a losing streak.

After making those changes . . . lost 14 out of the last 24 matches I've played.

At first I chalked it up to variance (I was flooded then screwed, then flooded then screwed, etc.) then faced 3 hexproof over 5 matches.

Ugh . . . then lost match 1 of 8-player twice in a row.

Do you all have these killer slumps, or did I just turn into a ragingly poor player?

I might start drinking . . .

[Toddington]

Bad beats bro. Mana variance and Hexproof decks are something everyone comes up against once in a while...

What's the current list?

On a more general note, I've noticed this deck is like a creature sideboarded version of the Burn deck, it's interesting to see which is the better Game 1 deck. I wanted to cut the all the Warleader's Helixes for Spark Troopers in Burn, but this is probably a better shell for that, if you can soak up some removal before connecting with a Trooper.

[montu]

Went 4-1 for 3rd place out of 28 people.

My strategy was to lower my curve (hence no SBD in SB, and replacing VFB with Shocks in MB), hit them with early aggro damage, and finish them off with burn.

I'm going to take this build to SCG Milwaukee, but I'd LOVE suggestions/considerations.

[deck]Rw Aggro - IRL Version[/deck]

Match 1 - vs Jund Monsters - 1-2

---

Game 1: Opp was mana screwed, and I killed every mana-dork that hit the board, so it was an
easy win.

+3 Boros Reckoner
+4 Chained to the Rocks
+2 Fated Conflagration

-4 Firedrinker Satyr
-4 Magma Jet
-1 Shock

Game 2: I was able to used Fated Conflagration to take out a Reaper, but I couldn't deal with his Polukranos. I didn't see a Chained all game.

Game 3: We both mulliganed to 6. Again, I didn't see a Chained the entire game. I had him to 3 life with 2 Helix in hand, but stuck at 3 lands.

Match 2 - vs RDW - 2-0

---

It was one of those matches where you beat your opp so bad, it almost doesn't feel right. I didn't even SB for game 2.

Match 3 - vs Maze's End - 2-0

---

Game 1: I mull to 6 and keep a 1 land hand, but miss a land drop on T3 and T4. Fortunately, a Magma Jet gets me back on track and I win easily.

+2 Spark Trooper
+4 Skullcrack
+3 Boros Reckoner

-3 Satyr Firedancer
-4 Searing Blood
-2 Shock

nGame 2: I keep a 4 land hand, but win easily.

Match 4 - vs B/W Humans - 2-0

---

Game 1: VERY close game. I was at 1 life, he was at 4, and we were both drawing lands. He would have won if he had remembered a battalion trigger.

+2 Spark Trooper
+2 Boros Reckoner

-4 Firedrinker Satyr

Game 2: Opp boarded in more removal, but I pummeled him with burn. I got to do the Searing-Blood-Your-Banisher-Priest-Which-Was-Exiling-My-Satyr-Firedancer Three-For-One Trick (TM).

Match 5 - vs Uw Devo - 1-2

---

Game 1: He mulls to 6 but gets MoW on board very quick.

+4 Chained to the Rocks
-4 Magma Jet

Game 2: I pummel him with early Firedrinker and Ash Zealot damage, Chain his MoW, and finish him off with a couple of Helix.

Game 3: Satyr Firedancer really shined allowing me to hit
him for 3 while killing his Neightveil Specter, etc.

[montu]

Oh my, did I feel bad.

My daughter was playing White Weenie against Mono U Devo. On Game 3, her opp had 1 life, she had 20.

Opp plays MoW for 12(!) in first main phase, and my daughter was going on and on about whether she should just fold. (She had a Brimaz on board and Ajani with 1 counter). Just to mess with her, I peek at her top card . . . it was a Plains . . . and show it to the guy sitting next to me. I say, "Check out the this killer top deck!" They guy look and says, "OMG, brutal!"

Her opp gets nervous and thinks it's a Brave the Elements, and attacks in for 17 damage including with a Nightveil Specter. He exiles the Plains (doh! lol), and my daughter pulls a Gift of Orzhova, winning the match.

I kinda felt bad, but it was also kinda funny at the same time.

[LaZerBurn]

Please . . . someone tell me it's normal to have a losing streak.

After making those changes . . . lost 14 out of the last 24 matches I've played.

At first I chalked it up to variance (I was flooded then screwed, then flooded then screwed, etc.) then faced 3 hexproof over 5 matches.

Ugh . . . then lost match 1 of 8-player twice in a row.

Do you all have these killer slumps, or did I just turn into a ragingly poor player?

I might start drinking . . .

It's normal - even MDU and Zem lose on occasion The better you get the more you can scrape out wins but variance is still a thing on MTGO. Their is also negativity bias whereby we remember the losing streaks
and forget the winning ones.

[Crims0n]

MDU what do you think about replacing firedancer with young pyro in the dancing burns deck?

[magicdownunder]

I've pretty much abandon the cause (I'm running a list very close too Z's).... (thus right now montu would be the best person to ask).

That said, during the deck design process I wanted to make a 50/50 deck (kinda like the set-up I have with RB) since the creature attack path is so important I wouldn't suggest cutting the dancer because you really need as many ways to break down walls as possible.

[Kaitscralt]

Saito is sideboarding Hero's Reunion at GP Cinci

Congrats, you fucked up Standard

[Valdarith]

That's hilarious.

[Elricity]

Montu, you might want to look into sliding something into the boros reckoner slot. As good as he can be, this just isn't the right time for him. Even GR monsters can largely ignore him.

[montu]

Montu, you might want to look into sliding something into the boros reckoner slot. As good as he can be, this just isn't the right time for him. Even GR monsters can largely ignore him.

You just might be right.

I swapped them out for +1 Satyr Firedancer (when he shine, he really shines!) and +2 Blind Obedience.

I'm going to start hitting the 8-Player Queues tonight and try to get in 1 DE per day in prep for SCG Milwaukee.

[montu]

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/28 ... Cincy.html

[Toddington]

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/28 ... Cincy.html

For reference;
[deck]Creatures (23)
4 Ash Zealot
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Chandra's Phoenix
2 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Tajic, Blade of the Legion

Planeswalkers (2)
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Lands (25)
13 Mountain
4 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph

Instants (8)
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike

Sorceries (2)
2 Mizzium Mortars

Sideboard
2 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Chained to the Rocks
2 Fated Conflagration
2 Searing Blood
2 Shock
1 Wear
2 Mizzium Mortars
[/deck]
I like this list a lot. Is anyone still experimenting with anything like this?

He never mentions the up-trend of [card]Blind
Obedience[/card] though, wonder how much it bothers the game plan.

Why is Boros Charm so good here?

[LaZerBurn]

Boros Charm keeps your men alive and is a great finisher

[Elricity]

Not a fan of reckoner in the list but then again I don't know the environment at SCG.

[magicdownunder]

[deck=MDU's Rw Aggro (PBZ)]Land 24
9 Mountain
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Mutavault
3 Boros Guildgate

Creatures 15
3 Young Pyromancer
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Rakdos Cackler

Enchantments 03
3 Chained to the Rocks

Burn 18
3 Shock
3 Magma Jet
4 Lightning strike
4 Warleader's Helix
4 Boros Charm

Sideboard 15
1 Chained to the Rocks
4 Skullcrack
4 Satyr Firedancer
2 Firedrinker Satyr
2 Searing Blood
2 Blind Obedience[/deck]
(Z = zemanjaski, MDU = magicdownunder, PBZ = Post Board Zurm, Zurm = Z + burn)

Standard Elimination Report (Event 6930431)
G1 Bg Devotion vs Rw Aggro (MDU) SE 6930431
G2 Boros Burn (Z) vs Rw Aggro (MDU) SE 6930431
G3 Jund Monster vs Rw Aggro (MDU) SE 6930431

(Mic is bad for G2 and G3 T_T)

The deck is still a work in process since I just tossed it together while I was raging and tilting about modern - the 6 cards which are most likely to change are: 4 Satyr Firedancer and 2 Firedrinker Satyr, in regards to MD I may toss SC back in since Burn and bx Devotion are common MUs.

Yeah, two days - two wild Z encounters - since we're both Australian I expect this to continue throughout the year.

[LaZerBurn]

Fun vids as ever MDU How are you finding the pre-boarded version compared to the straight Burn list? Looks as though it might be well poised right now? The list looks soild though I'm not sure that you need FDS with Cackler in the MD - I presume it only comes in against control? Skullcrack MD seems a good call against Burn, Bx and Control.

[montu]

Fun vids as ever MDU How are you finding the pre-boarded version compared to the straight Burn list? Looks as though it might be well poised right now? The list looks soild though I'm not sure that you need FDS with Cackler in the MD - I presume it only comes in against control? Skullcrack MD seems a good call against Burn, Bx and Control.

With Bx Devo, BW Midrange, Esper, RW Burn (and even Monsters), as high-percentage meta decks, I'm convinced that Skullcrack should be MB.

[magicdownunder]

The decks taking the MOST wins right now (in order) online:

1# B Devotion
2# Esper Control
3# Burn
4# Jund Monster
5# UW Devotion
6# BW Control

MD Rakdos Cackler in strong vs 1-3 and 6, Cackler is weaker against UW and Jund but its not horrible.

MD SkullCrack is weaker against 4-6 (its not horrible since 2cc for 3 is standard). Skull obv. does have a place in combating 1-3, does that make it better then Boros Charm overall (don't forget saving chains, lands or creatures is relevant in this version)?

Anyhow using the above logic, preboarding should give you free wins against 1-3 R1, making it easier to take R2-3.

That said I'll admit I did build the deck hastily so I'm open for suggestion what would you cut for SC? (I do think SC is really good) I'll play around with the numbers and try and squeeze it in later tonight .

[magicdownunder]

Well... I've proceed to stomp all over the 8-Man beating Uw Devotion, Esper Control and Gr Monsters.

I didn't really miss the Skull G1 against any of those list but I did use the Boros Charm as a horrible 2-4-1 shock at one stage (giving one of my 2/2 double strike to trade with */4).

[Tyrael]

This deck won a SCG IQ, seems people are starting to take advantage of Esper's popularity on paper:

[deck= R/W Aggro, Derek Decuir]Creatures (26)

4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Firefist Striker
2 Gore-House Chainwalker
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Viashino Firstblade
Lands (21)

12 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry
1 Temple Garden
4 Temple of Triumph
Spells (13)

3 Chained to the Rocks
4 Boros Charm
2 Lightning Strike
4 Shock
Sideboard

3 Spark Trooper
1 Chained to the Rocks
2 Searing Blood
4 Skullcrack
2 Glare of Heresy
3 Mizzium Mortars[/deck]

(source: http://www.starcitygames.com/article/28 ... Aggro.html )

[magicdownunder]

I like the techy 4x Shocks over MJ and LS, it looks like more people have notice that Drown and Anger are not seeing any play.

[Tyrael]

How does this deck generally fare vs UW control? It's still really popular at my FNM and my AIR list just gets blown out by it

They always seem to have an answer for everything I play. Is this just bad luck on my part or... ?