[Primer] Boros Burn

[DXI-Edge]

uuuuuh

Mutavault doesnt get burned by Homing Lightning.

I think people misunderstand the fact that Pack Rat gets +1/+1 for each RAT not each PACK RAT.

Thats why mutavault works. It doesnt have the same name as infinite creatures. It has the same TYPE as infinite creatures...

so literally, homing lightning would kill packrats (which we can kill the first one almost ALL the time, or we can race it) and multiple blood barons (which literally means we lose).

It will not work, sorry to say

[JohnnyfnB]

Your right, I stand corrected. Mutavault says, "type", Homing Lightning says, "same name." Thank you and sorry about that.

[LaZerBurn]

How I my 'lil Drinkers MOW isn't scary at all when he's all on his lonesome - I just killed every single card my sad opp put into play while Thassa and Ephara watched on in despair, it was truly beautiful

[surelock]

I am going to my LGS tonight, am going to give Fated Conflagration a try in the sb for the GR and WB matches.

[calebjmr]

I am going to my LGS tonight, am going to give Fated Conflagration a try in the sb for the GR and WB matches.

Let us know how that goes, because I have been considering that card here and there if the Ghost Dads come out at my LGS.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Playing Zem's list at FNM tonight, -1 BE, +1 FotFB because apoatently I traded two of my BEs. Will post results here later tonight.

[MisterMet]

I'm currently testing this version:

[deck]
Lands
10 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Silence
4 Temple of Triumph
2 Mutavault

Creatures
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Stormbreath Dragon

Removal
4 Chained to the Rocks
2 Mizzium Mortars

Burn
3 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
2 Shock
3 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix

Chandra
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Sideboard
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Blind Obedience
1 Boros Charm
2 Glare of Heresy
3 Satyr Firedancer
1 Skullcrack
2 Toil/Trouble
3 Viashino Firstblade
[/deck]

Played two 8-mans today.

Went 1-1 in the first, beating U/W Control 2-1 (the one loss was because I tapped out casting a Stormbreath Dragon into Dissolve when I should have just passed my turn with two Skullcrack's in hand) and lost to U/W Devotion 1-2.

Went 3-0 in the second, beating Jund Aggro 2-1 (Blind Obedience helped a lot here), Naya Aggro/Midrange 2-0 (game 1 he
spent a lot of time dealing with Chandra while game 2 Stormbreath Dragon prevented his creatures from attacking until I could draw removal) and Mono-Black Devotion 2-0.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Now we has primer. Excellent.

[Jonnymagic]

I'm doin the DE atm. Played U/W. May or may not have a singleton Wild Ricochet in the s/b in lieu of chandra vs control, may or may not have stolen a sphinx's rev with it.

[zemanjaski]

I am a bit busy, so I can elaborate later if people would like, but just to comment on some of the discussions, drawing on my own experience:

- Chained to the Rocks is the nut high against GR. The games you win and the games where you tempo them out. Even if they can destroy it (and you know they can), being able to effectively bounce their creature for 1-2 turns or more let's you get in more damage and slow them down. Thing Vapor Snag in UW Delver against GR Ramp a few seasons ago. I completely understand where Val is coming from; I agree with his assessment that you just need to kill them ASAP - statistically, working through my data, I am about 25% on the draw, and about 50% on the play; that tells you all you need to know about the matchup; if they can accelerate without being disrupted (much easier for them on the play) then we're just getting crushed. I'll be turning my attention to this matchup after the weekend'
s events (got to get paid).

- I am somewhat unhappy with the overly reactive sideboarding advice or ideas that are floating around. You need to find creative lines of play to solve these problems, not dillute your deck's strategy down for "just in case" scenarios. Burn operates much like combo; take out too many central pieces and suddenly you cannot win quickly enough anymore. Ratchet Bomb is horrible. Flated Conflag is better, insofar as it has broad application and the Scry 2 helps make up for running less Burn; so I want to see people's results with that. Remember that you don't need to kill all their creatures. If they're at zero with lethal on board and seven cards in hand, they're still dead. Don't become too reactive, unless that is a winning strategy, so if you're transforming into a control deck post board, do it 100%, don't half ass it.

Keep up the good work team, this has been really fun working with such a large group. Please remember to keep
notes as a minimum, spreadsheet data if you're extra keen and want bonus zem points.

Since we have such a large group working together, maybe we can organise a group skype call soon? We could talk about the deck's construction itself (eg: number of guildgates, 22 vs 23 land for examples of discussion points) as well as how we each approach certain matchups. I am keen to see if the other player's data and win rates resemebles my own, and where it doesn't, is it because of differences in our decks or playstyle? Keep an open mind to learning team.

Zem.

[BlakLanner]

Proof that sometimes we all need a smack upside the head and being told we are being idiots. Thanks, Zem.

[zemanjaski]

Its forest for the trees. You're not wrong to explore new ideas, but you're losing sight of how the deck wins. You cannot play to "not lose", your sideboarding strategy still needs to be advancing you towards a win.

[zemanjaski]

A strong player tells me that Guttersnipe *may* be a better version of Firedancer. Still let's you kill creatures and effectively searing blaze; can attack and block better, doesn't get blown out by removal. When you actually point spells at your opponent, its substantially more powerful too.

[Jonnymagic]

My data so far:

279 matches playing the deck with various s/b iterations but the main being 95% the same.

g/r monsters g1 52% g2 39%, g3 51%
u/w control g1 70% g2 41% g3 59%
b/w midrange g1 64% g2 45% g3 54%
mono b g1 75% g2 58% g3 71%
mono u g1 69% g2 72% g3 71%
WW g1 68% g2 81% g3 82%
esper g1 65% g2 54% g3 66%
bug g1 65% g2 53% g3 66% (not much testing)
hexproof g1 10% g2 20% g3 20% (this matchup makes me want to cry)
mono red g1 71% g2 55% g3 69%
w/r devotion g1 75% g2 57% g3 71%
mirror r/w burn g1 100% g2 90% g3 100% (10 games played total, so not a huge pool)

So total vs those matchups (and a few other fringe not worth mentioning) I am 61.9%. The last PTQ I played in was 8 rounds, 7 of which were g/r monsters, so obv that data was skewed =D.

[NerdBoyWonder]

In love with this deck. So far in testing haven't dropped a game. Running through the gauntlet. Esper is a cakewalk and blue Devo is t as bad as I thought. Gonna grind against monsters and b/w to see how I fair.

[zemanjaski]

My data so far:

279 matches playing the deck with various s/b iterations but the main being 95% the same.

g/r monsters g1 52% g2 39%, g3 51%
u/w control g1 70% g2 41% g3 59%
b/w midrange g1 64% g2 45% g3 54%
mono b g1 75% g2 58% g3 71%
mono u g1 69% g2 72% g3 71%
WW g1 68% g2 81% g3 82%
esper g1 65% g2 54% g3 66%
bug g1 65% g2 53% g3 66% (not much testing)
hexproof g1 10% g2 20% g3 20% (this matchup makes me want to cry)
mono red g1 71% g2 55% g3 69%
w/r devotion g1 75% g2 57% g3 71%
mirror r/w burn g1 100% g2 90% g3 100% (10 games played total, so not a huge pool)

So total vs those matchups (and a few other fringe not worth mentioning) I am 61.9%. The last PTQ I played in was 8 rounds, 7 of which were g/r monsters, so obv that data was skewed
=D.

Thanks sir, our numbers are very similar

[MisterMet]

I'm currently in another 8-man and just defeated a GR Monsters deck 2-0. Having Stormbreath Dragon makes the matchup much easier since it provides me a nice late game beat stick. This gives me the option of using burn on his creatures and planeswalkers instead of trying to race them.

[zemanjaski]

I've had flame-wreathed phoenix suggested to me for GR. Importantly, they probably cannot give you a 5/5, so you get the 3/3 haste which is a pretty fast clock.

[zemanjaski]

Like, if Stormbreath is where you want to be to race, then Phoenix just has to be better; its a 4-drop so it comes down AT LEAST a turn faster.

[Purp]

It's a pretty do nothing card everywhere else, and I say that speaking from testing it heavily in RB Aggro.

[zemanjaski]

Phoenix or Stormbreath?

I guess Stormbeath could come in against UW Control too.

Thinking outside the box some more, what about Legion's Iniative + Viashino package with keeping Ash Zealot in vs GR? That's a lot more committed to aggro and we can hit through Caryatid np.

[zemanjaski]

Also makes Spark Trooper even nastier. Any traction there?

[zemanjaski]

Also want to try -1 Shock (so 2 shock) +1 Viashino main, to free up some SB space. The most popular decks at 1900 rating are MBC and Esper, and I want Viashino vs. those decks anyway.

[Purp]

If I am tapping 5 mana for stormbreath, I would rather be tapping 4 for spark trooper. The thing is, SBD would only be good against GR if we play the first one. I don't dislike it verse UW, since they side out a number of verdicts. Still seems weak everywhere else.

GR
Bw
Mono U

I think that is the order of matchups we need to figure out.

I don't dislike the idea of putting more creatures main, more spell answers in the side.

pyromancers gaunlet!?

[zemanjaski]

Won another 8-man. That's 5/5.

[zemanjaski]

Gauntlet is kinda sweet tech I guess, but it doesn't impact the board which is a huge issue in the matchups your listing.

Pacifism for GR? What good white removal options are there?

I think I like the idea of SB'ing out creatures + bringing in Anger vs Mono U.

[DriftingLifted]

I had the Legion's Initiative thought in my head for a little while, as 1/2-ofs. I liked the possibilities with Ash Zealot and burn. Swinging into Poly K then post first strike Searing Blood sounds wonderful... It would mean having to justify it with enough creatures to make it worth while though. I never really get above 12 and that's only against control.

I'll be picking up the Phoenix anyways so I might try those out in some testing. I predict they might see a lot more play post RTR block rotation and Desecration Demon isn't a thing anymore.

Also, crazy thoughts of trying Smite out against G/R. My Ash Zealots often have to sit back anyways due to Sylvan Carytids, so using them to block + smite might actually be less terrible than I'm giving it credit for. I just like how along with CttR, single mana removal allows me to keep my tempo and constant burn to the face up. Janky possibilities of Searing Blood
without fully damaging them too.

[Jonnymagic]

2-1 in the DE. R2 im not even counting, mulled to 4 and 3 respectively to even get a land drop, and didn't draw one at all after that. R3 was esper midrange, so I had the chance to try the 2x chandra's outrage and 2x blind obedience from the s/b. It did WORK against the ghost daddy and baron matchup. This matchup feels much much better >=D.

[zemanjaski]

Yeah Iniative doesn't quite get there.

The best configuration against them is probably a low curve variant with Fire Fist Striker, but there isn't a way for us to turn into that deck.

[GodzillaAteMe]

Hey guys, I'll be playing an updated list tomorrow night at FNM. Quite a diverse group of decks so hopefully get some good matches in. Will post what I'm thinking of running tomorrow before the tourney.

Oddly enough, I have been undefeated past two weeks against G/R monsters (about 4 rounds I think?) I've had worse luck against Mono B oddly enough; they always seem to have at least 3 duress/2 thoughtseize against me, taking all of my Skullcracks

[Valdarith]

Yeah Iniative doesn't quite get there.

The best configuration against them is probably a low curve variant with Fire Fist Striker, but there isn't a way for us to turn into that deck.

If you're going to stay Boros, I agree. Rakdos gives you that option though. Your burn spells lose their punch so you'd be playing an entirely different deck, but I've been fooling around with my PyroBlack build for the past couple of nights and I love it. It has enough burn to keep me happy but still runs 20 creatures so I kind of get that Sligh feel when I play it. Plus the board just poops all over GR.

But the thread is titled "Boros Burn" so that's a little out of scope.

[zemanjaski]

GR Probably folds to something that looks like 20 creatures / 20 spells / 20 lands.

[MisterMet]

While Flame-Wreathed Phoenix could be a nice against GR (being a 4 drop is huge if we're trying to race them) I also found Stormbreath Dragon to be great against control and rogue matchups.

Just won another 8-man.

Round 1 vs GR Monsters
Game 1: He mulled to 5. Chained his Rampager and overloaded Mortars to get rid of his mana dorks. Chandra's Phoenix and some burn spells won the game.
Side Out: 2x Chandra, 2x Skullcrack
Side in: 2x Blind Obedience, 2x Satyr Firedancer
Game 2: I removed his elf with Lightning Strike, killed his Domri with Stormbreath Dragon and the finished him off with Dragon and two Phoenix.

Round 2 vs Black/White midrange
Game 1: Mulled to five but drew the right amount of burn and a Phoenix. My opponent also didn't have any removal for Chandra and her ultimate did the last points of damage.
Side out: 4x Dragon, 2x Shock (made a mistake and forgot to side out a mountain)
Side in: 1x Boros
Charm, 1x Skullcrack, 2x Blind Obedience, 2x Satyr Firedancer (I might have made a mistake here and should have brought in some Firstblades as well)
Game 2: He took away Blind Obedience with Duress (which helped in a way since I didn't have any white sources at that time and also had a Magma Jet in hand). A second one late game along with Helix gave me enough life to win a few turns later with Phoenix and Boros Charm.

Round 3 Split

I might add another Anger of the Gods in the sideboard and take out the third Satyr Firedancer since I haven't brought that in yet and Anger just seems better against aggro matchups.

[zemanjaski]

Yeah, I like the sound of Anger + Mortars.

[LP, of the Fires]

You should probably make note of the 20/20/20 ideas. Actually seems well positioned. ..

[zemanjaski]

Super grinder Szuler has been playing something similar.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Please tell me it's time for this:

[deck]Creatures (18)
4 Firedrinker Stayr
4 Ash Zealot
4 Viashino Firstblade
4 Chandra's Phoenix
2 Spark Trooper

Spells (18)
4 Shock
4 Searing Blood
4 Lightning strike
4 Boros Charm
2 Chained to the Rocks

Lands (24)
4 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
2 Boros Guildgate
10 Mountains[/deck]

[DXI-Edge]

I've just come back from testing about 20 matches with Burn vs. Monsters, BW and Esper with the following 74 (NEED 1 MORE CARD)

4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix
3 Satyr Firedancer

3 Shock
3 Warleader's Helix
4 Searing Blood
4 Skullcrack
4 Lightning Strike
4 Boros Charm
4 Magma Jet

2 Boros Guildgate
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Mutavault
9 Mountain

Sideboard
4 Chained to the Rocks
4 Firedrinker Satyr
1 Satyr Firedancer
2 Blind Obedience
3 Viashino Firstblade
1 ????

So basically Firedrinker Satyr turned the esper matchup from difficult to easy with just 4 slots. Its hilarious how much of an impact this card has, especially since now we're up to 19 creatures that cost less than 3 mana vs. them (Phoenix, Satyr, Firstblade, Zealot)

GR/Jund was 50/50 in testing, but the more I play it the easier it gets. It requires a bit of luck sometimes, but as long as you play to your outs and
realise that Chaining thier Courser is sometimes the right play (OFTENtimes the right play) and that Domri/Xenagos/Whatever just mean absolutely nothing to you, it gets better than people think. Its like Zeman says, as long as thier dead, it doesnt matter if they killed you next turn. They're dead.

Mono-Black is PRETTY easy from my testing and from what I saw Zeman playing.

BW Is SO hard to deal with. Pre-Board its winnable but difficult, post board its almost impossible to win. Its so well postiioned against us its not even funny.

Satyr Firedancer main I'm happy with, as its less dead against control than Chained to the rocks is, and it helps our game 1's around the board against EVERYTHING. Its just a useful card to have access to.

I need one more card for the sideboard, or cut Firedancer from the board and I have two slots. Chandra's Outrage? Chandra, Pyromaster? A Flame-Wreathed Phoenix? Spark Trooper? Mizzium Mortars?

[Mr. Metronome]

What were the games like that BW won against you? I saw one involving Blood Baron, but was there more than that?

Baron is a problem card out of Esper too, I really feel like the deck wants an answer to it.

[DXI-Edge]

2 Demons at a time, Baron's, Him stabilizing thanks to Obzedat.

Pretty much it