Fire and Ice Mafia - Game Over!

[Wraith223]

It's not that he wants to doc hunt, -what else did you see cause I got Doc hunting right off from the start

it's that he wants us to come up with a list of the players we think the mafias would want to NK. -Both agendas are not mutually exclusive. Discovering one agenda helps scum more than town. It's like revealing who is undercover to prevent false arrest. The scum just kill the undercover agent and we are at a major loss.

This would benefit nobody but the mafias and the doctor, but the doctor should be making these decisions for himself. It only benefits
the Doc in a vacuum. The last part of your sentence is a huge duh.-

Is this scum protecting scum? Or is this freedom's bad post of day 1 again?

Why defend a scum statement when it obvious it is a tar baby? You can't argue or spin this out of scum realm.

[Kazekirimaru]

Vote Count 3!
OP reading is tech, bro!

Stardust (0)
freedom (0)
rcwraspy (0)
zemanjaski (1) - DroppinSuga
Void (1) - Fate
Wraith223 (0)
Fate (1) - zemanjaski
Captain Murphy (3) - Manders, imopen2, freedom
DroppinSuga (0)
Manders (0)
rezombad (0)
(G_R) (1) - Wraith223
imopen2 (2) - Stardust, rcwraspy

Not Voting (4) - Void, rezombad, (G_R), Captain Murphy

With 13 alive, it is 7 to lynch.

Deadline is: 30 January, 2014 11:59PM EST

[Jack]

Wraith, we seem to be in disagreement, probably because one of us is reading the situation completely incorrectly. Let's try to clear things up.

Murphy's words:

I think there needs to be a discussion closer to the end of the day deciding the 3 best doc choices so it isn't plundered on one of the 4 scum or someone who might not be supporting the town.

By "doc choices," I don't think he means a list of players whom we think could be the doctor, though I believe that you had interpreted it this way. You can see that "doc choices" refers to the list of players on whom the doctor should consider using his night ability, since he later says "so it isn't plundered on one of the 4 scum," meaning that he
feels we should help the doctor with his choice so that he uses his ability on a townie who is likely to be lynched and not used on one of the scum by mistake. This doesn't seem to be the root of a search for the doctor.

Who else is reading it this way?

Fate: you said my analysis was shallow, but was it wrong?

[DroppinSuga]

After reading, I feel that Captain is the strongest scum candidate for day one. His comments pointed out by freedom above really pushed my buttons. This is not a random drop in and vote, I've been busy with the son and haven't been able to properly read the game. So for today.

unvote
vote Cap Murphy

[zemanjaski]

Yes, but the inherent problem with discussing on whom the doctor can use the doc ability is that it lets the scum know on whom the ability won't be used, such that their kills can go off more freely (they now only have to worry about cancelling each other out, there is no additional worry about the doc stopping a kill as well). So the discussion does serve scum somewhat. It does also allow for us to decide on the most likely Town players, so that scum will probably have to kill off the weaker Town players first, which is optimal for Town. So I think it reasonably goes both ways.

[Wraith223]

Wraith, we seem to be in disagreement, probably because one of us is reading the situation completely incorrectly. Let's try to clear things up.

Murphy's words:

I think there needs to be a discussion closer to the end of the day deciding the 3 best doc choices so it isn't plundered on one of the 4 scum or someone who might not be supporting the town.

By "doc choices," I don't think he means a list of players whom we think could be the doctor, though I believe that you had interpreted it this way. You can see that "doc choices" refers to the list of
players on whom the doctor should consider using his night ability, since he later says "so it isn't plundered on one of the 4 scum," meaning that he feels we should help the doctor with his choice so that he uses his ability on a townie who is likely to be lynched and not used on one of the scum by mistake. This doesn't seem to be the root of a search for the doctor.

Who else is reading it this way?

Fate: you said my analysis was shallow, but was it wrong?

I see your point but you could somehow figure out the doctor with that list or at least valuable town. Just saying in agreement who we each think is town, null, and scum is enough. Going further to investigate town is help for scum. If you find X>>>>you find Y by mistake for scum. Still think Captain Murphy let a big slip up there regardless.

[zemanjaski]

I guess if we identify who we think we should doc; then the doc won't be in that list, which would substantially increase the chance of scum killing the doc (say we name 3 doc candidates; each pair of scum would then have a 1/8 chance of killing the doc; with two sets of scum that's about 1/4 we lose the doc with that line in play, with no upside as the scum won't try to kill one of the named protection targets). I don't think there is sufficient upside for Town to follow that course of action, but I don't think that it is inherently scum minded.

Freedom has been uncharacteristically active, but he did show more activity towards the end of DTR mafia and it is his second game. It is also usually beneficial for scum to be a little quieter on Day 1, so I like Freedom for Town right now.

[Jack]

Yes, but the inherent problem with discussing on whom the doctor can use the doc ability is that it lets the scum know on whom the ability won't be used, such that their kills can go off more freely (they now only have to worry about cancelling each other out, there is no additional worry about the doc stopping a kill as well). So the discussion does serve scum somewhat. It does also allow for us to decide on the most likely Town players, so that scum will probably have to kill off the weaker Town players first, which is optimal for Town. So I think it reasonably goes both ways.

Good post. I think between what you said and what I said, we've brought out most of the information.

I'm fairly certain that Murphy is our best lynch for Day 1,
but it feels so strange to me to have that by page 4. In DTR mafia, that didn't happen for us until well after page 10 when we tried to get raspy, and it took a few more before we lynched Pie.

[Jack]

Freedom has been uncharacteristically active, but he did show more activity towards the end of DTR mafia and it is his second game. It is also usually beneficial for scum to be a little quieter on Day 1, so I like Freedom for Town right now.

Yeah, I wasn't posting so much last game because I really didn't know what I was doing, and when I did open my mouth I'd often get called scum for what I said. I feel a bit more confident now.

[Wraith223]

Yes, but the inherent problem with discussing on whom the doctor can use the doc ability is that it lets the scum know on whom the ability won't be used, such that their kills can go off more freely (they now only have to worry about cancelling each other out, there is no additional worry about the doc stopping a kill as well). So the discussion does serve scum somewhat. It does also allow for us to decide on the most likely Town players, so that scum will probably have to kill off the weaker Town players first, which is optimal for Town. So I think it reasonably goes both ways.

Good post.
I think between what you said and what I said, we've brought out most of the information.

I'm fairly certain that Murphy is our best lynch for Day 1, but it feels so strange to me to have that by page 4. In DTR mafia, that didn't happen for us until well after page 10 when we tried to get raspy, and it took a few more before we lynched Pie.

There was no Captain Murphy in DTR Mafie >_> So....he has no precedent there for us to evaluate.

Captain Murphy has lynched himself in my view. Still waiting for G_R to respond.

[zemanjaski]

The trend here on DTR (not DTR-mafia the game specifically) is for long day 1s, but that isn't necessarily the case elsewhere.

I am not willing to support a move on Murphy without more content from others. We still haven't heard anything from Rezombad for example and I think, whereas in a standard format with only a single scum faction, a mislynch isn't a huge deal, with a guaranteed two NKs every night, in addition to the lynch, the game will only go a few days so rushing to a day 1 lynch doesn't appeal to me.

[zemanjaski]

As is becoming a theme for me, I don't like wraith's reasoning, but I do like wraith for Town.

Yay, two Townies.

And I get to play with Fate? And Rezombad can't day kill me? Should be a fun game.

[Wraith223]

Yeah, I mentioned no Rez earlier. WTH Rez? Mod Prod please! Want to at least hear from him before a lynch occurs.

[Kazekirimaru]

Yeah, I mentioned no Rez earlier. WTH Rez? Mod Prod please! Want to at least hear from him before a lynch occurs.

Rezombad is not due for a prod until tomorrow evening.

[( G_R )]

Alright Wraith223, your points against me seem to be:

1. That I got defensive. I was answering questions. If this very post answering your questions is gonna be labeled "defensive", then expect me to get "defensive" every time anyone asks me a question, I guess. I do like to address other people's points, especially when specifically asked to do so.

2. That I wanted to wagon then I backpedaled. Here's once again how it went: I planned to vote Stardust on RVS and when I saw there was a vote on him already I shrugged and voted anyway. After that, two things happened: Stardust claimed cop, for reasons I wasn't aware of at the time and after I RSV him Zem said that I had activated his trap card and made what I thought was a serious vote trying to get a reaction from me. I was rather pleased to put the first leaning townie on my notes and then I made a serious vote on Stardust because I thought he had
made a mistake by not reading the setup and had basically claimed scum. THEN I realized that things weren't as cut and dry as I first thought, and decided to honor our little agreement, which brings us to

3. The agreement itself. We made it right after that game I replaced in and DTR mafia was the first time we played under it. You seem to get this now, so let's leave it at that.

4. The language post and the little post chain that followed. I was being sarcastic, as I said earlier. You see, all of my day ones I spend answering to walls of text like yours. Every. Single. Time. I've come to think that it's a cultural thing (which is why I mentioned the language thing even though it is not precisely it). This really is a matter for mafia theory discussion.

S'all

[( G_R )]

I'm not convinced about the Murphy wagon. He's an experienced player and this would be a silly mistake if he was scum.

For now I'm discarding Zem, Fate, Stardust (for known reasons) and Wraith223 as lynch candidates.

[Link]

oh freedom...

you goddamn scumbag

Vote: Freedom

this is the part where we team up, Z

[zemanjaski]

Sell me a case, I'm listening.

I don't like his last self aware post ("look how confidant and Town I am now!") but otherwise he's pretty null.

[Link]

Yes, but the inherent problem with discussing on whom the doctor can use the doc ability is that it lets the scum know on whom the ability won't be used, such that their kills can go off more freely (they now only have to worry about cancelling each other out, there is no additional worry about the doc stopping a kill as well). So the discussion does serve scum somewhat. It does also allow for us to decide on the most likely Town players, so that scum will probably have to kill off the weaker Town players first, which is optimal for Town. So I think it reasonably goes both ways.

Good post.
I think between what you said and what I said, we've brought out most of the information.

I'm fairly certain that Murphy is our best lynch for Day 1, but it feels so strange to me to have that by page 4. In DTR mafia, that didn't happen for us until well after page 10 when we tried to get raspy, and it took a few more before we lynched Pie.

so you agree with Z theres town motivation...

Or are you just blatantly buddying Z without incorporating his post into your murphy read?

100% fuckin scum

[Jack]

There could be a bit of town motivation. He could just be a townie saying the wrong things, like I am. He could even be the doctor. But calling him scum is a good way to get more information from him.

[Wraith223]

Alright Wraith223, your points against me seem to be:

1. That I got defensive. I was answering questions. If this very post answering your questions is gonna be labeled "defensive", then expect me to get "defensive" every time anyone asks me a question, I guess. I do like to address other people's points, especially when specifically asked to do so.

2. That I wanted to wagon then I backpedaled. Here's once again how it went: I planned to vote Stardust on RVS and when I saw there was a vote on him already I shrugged and voted anyway. After that, two things happened: Stardust claimed cop, for reasons I wasn't aware of at the time and after I RSV him Zem said that I had activated his trap card and made what I thought was a serious vote
trying to get a reaction from me. I was rather pleased to put the first leaning townie on my notes and then I made a serious vote on Stardust because I thought he had made a mistake by not reading the setup and had basically claimed scum. THEN I realized that things weren't as cut and dry as I first thought, and decided to honor our little agreement, which brings us to

3. The agreement itself. We made it right after that game I replaced in and DTR mafia was the first time we played under it. You seem to get this now, so let's leave it at that.

4. The language post and the little post chain that followed. I was being sarcastic, as I said earlier. You see, all of my day ones I spend answering to walls of text like yours. Every. Single. Time. I've come to think that it's a cultural thing (which is why I mentioned the language thing even though it is not precisely it). This really is a matter for mafia theory discussion.

S'all

I am satisfied with the responses. My gut is
auto simmering down now. Others have said pretty much the same. Sarcasm is you strength. Also, sticking to your guns on getting more defensive but not to show compliance is good town response.

Freedom does sound odd but he usually does in his posts as they are speculative differentials. He plays good devils advocate as well. In NO way am I defending him, but only reading his intent. Not sure he is scum as he writes some pretty scum lined stuff, but devils advocates general do. Captain Murphy is still the better vote as his scum post was freely given without stimuli. Freedom's possible scum or devils advocate post was in response to explaining stimuli. That's all I got for now. Time for bed and will be busy tomorrow. See what I can respond if I have time.

UNVOTE, VOTE Captain Murphy[/b:
2eznekkh]

[zemanjaski]

There could be a bit of town motivation. He could just be a townie saying the wrong things, like I am. He could even be the doctor. But calling him scum is a good way to get more information from him.

Unvote, vote Freedom

You were asking for it with this post. Scum no. 1 found. All aboard the wagon. Lynch lynch lynch lynch lynch.

[zemanjaski]

You can only say Murphy is scum if you think a veteran player would knowingly make that slip. Don't buy it.

Freedom is the lynch, go.

You can copy and paste from my post above.

Lynch!

[Jack]

game will only go a few days so rushing to a day 1 lynch doesn't appeal to me.

Tell me, what made you change your mind about this? Why'd you go from "let's learn as much as we can today before we lynch someone" to "get freedom, NOW!"?

[Jack]

Ignore the smiley. I'm on a touch screen now, and didn't see that I'd accidently hit that one.

[zemanjaski]

No point to rush until I know who is scum. You told us you were and even your last posts were scum posts. Now that the direction is clear I can lynch with no fear.

Hang.

[zemanjaski]

game will only go a few days so rushing to a day 1 lynch doesn't appeal to me.

Tell me, what made you change your mind about this? Why'd you go from "let's learn as much as we can today before we lynch someone" to "get freedom, NOW!"?

SCUM POST DETECTED

[Captain Murphy]

Well, that worked well

I'm not trying to fish the doc, I would have said the same thing if we had only one vig, or only one cop. We know we have only one PR and maximizing the choice is best.

Therefore picking 3 not only eliminates the scum knowing the one choice but it could also in fact scare the scum to the point of not wanting to hit all 3.

On top of that we have some great wagon analysis:

manders is most likely town after her vote on me. Considering she was the only person to respond with a problem after I posted that and she genuinely wanted to apply pressure.

Unvote

Vote: Murphy

Fishing for the doc target is a big no no in this setup. You're a much better player than that, Murphy.[/quote:
z82i9uh3]
lol nope not fishing

Yes, but the inherent problem with discussing on whom the doctor can use the doc ability is that it lets the scum know on whom the ability won't be used, such that their kills can go off more freely (they now only have to worry about cancelling each other out, there is no additional worry about the doc stopping a kill as well). So the discussion does serve scum somewhat. It does also allow for us to decide on the most likely Town players, so that scum will probably have to kill off the weaker Town players first, which is optimal for Town. So I think it reasonably goes both ways.

Good post. I think between what you said and what I said, weve brought out most of the information.

I'm fairly certain that Murphy is our best lynch for Day 1, but it feels so strange to me to have that by page 4. In DTR mafia, that didn't happen for us until well after page 10 when we tried to get raspy, and it took a few more before we lynched Pie.

Some people haven't posted any content and you already want to confirm a day one lynch? holy shit man lol

There could be a bit of town motivation. He could just be a townie saying the wrong things, like I am. He could even be the doctor. But calling him scum is a good way to get more information from him.

You being town is like Billy crystal playing scarface vote freedom

imopen and freedom have the strongest scum vibes from that whole wagon, they are the two to watch

[Captain Murphy]

Lets not forget the doc can decide whatever the fuck he wants, actually having a conversation with 9 town and 4 mafia about who is there top 3 doc hits can show some incriminating connections.

This isn't your regular mafia game where 3 mafia can fuck the votes up bad to a point of one of the team being targeted, they only have the power of another player this game

[imopen2]

There could be a bit of town motivation. He could just be a townie saying the wrong things, like I am. He could even be the doctor. But calling him scum is a good way to get more information from him.

Unvote, vote Freedom

You were asking for it with this post. Scum no. 1 found. All aboard the wagon. Lynch lynch lynch lynch lynch.

No. All he is saying is that he is a townie who is saying the wrong things. What is scummy about that?

You can only say Murphy is scum if you think a veteran player would knowingly make that slip. Don't buy it.

Freedom is the lynch, go.

You can copy and paste from my post above.

Lynch!

Why are you in such a hurry? I haven't seen anything scummy from freedom yet.

No point to rush until I know who is scum. You told us you were and even your last posts were scum posts. Now that the direction is clear I can lynch with no fear.

Hang.

He said nothing of the sort. You're making things up.

game will only go a few days so rushing to a day 1 lynch doesn't appeal to me.

Tell me, what made you change your mind about this? Why'd you go from "let's learn as much as we can today before we lynch someone" to "get freedom, NOW!"?

SCUM POST DETECTED

You've got to be kidding me. OMGUS.

Unvote

Vote: Zem

How does it feel to be mafia for the first time?

Btw, pretty sure Murphy is still scum since that explanation makes no sense (in this setup, giving the mafia any extra info is bad IMO). I don't understand your reasoning, and I will not participate in speculation on the doc target.

Also, you say
manders was the first to have a problem with your post. She also didn't say what the problems were. First is not always the best.

[Wraith223]

There could be a bit of town motivation. He could just be a townie saying the wrong things, like I am. He could even be the doctor. But calling him scum is a good way to get more information from him.

Unvote, vote Freedom

You were asking for it with this post. Scum no. 1 found. All aboard the wagon. Lynch lynch lynch lynch lynch.

No. All he is saying is
that he is a townie who is saying the wrong things. What is scummy about that?

In Post 113, you just voted Captain Murphy for Doc hunting and you now find Freedom doing that is OK? What a load of crap as you can't have it both ways! SCUM defending scum here!

You can only say Murphy is scum if you think a veteran player would knowingly make that slip. Don't buy it.

Freedom is the lynch, go.

You can copy and paste from my post above.

Lynch!

Why are you in such a hurry? I
haven't seen anything scummy from freedom yet.

Cause both Freedom and Captain Murphy wanted or alluded to doc hunting. BAD IDEA for town. You can't have vote against one agenda and support it at the same time.

No point to rush until I know who is scum. You told us you were and even your last posts were scum posts. Now that the direction is clear I can lynch with no fear.

Hang.

He said nothing of the sort. You're making things up.

Zem always overreacts to see who bandwagons with him or as you have done; defending him after voting for the original poster of doc hunting.

game will only go a few days so rushing to a day 1 lynch doesn't appeal to me.

Tell me, what made you change your mind about this? Why'd you go from "let's learn as much as we can today before we lynch someone" to "get freedom, NOW!"?

SCUM POST DETECTED

You've got to be kidding me. OMGUS.

Unvote

Vote: Zem

How does it feel to be mafia for the first time? How does it feel to get caught in a contradiction?


Btw, pretty sure Murphy is still scum since that explanation makes no sense (in this setup, giving the mafia any extra info is bad IMO). I don't understand your reasoning, and I will not participate in speculation on the doc target.
Yet you still find Freedom's post OK You are a walking contradiction!

Also, you say manders was the first to have a problem with your post. She also didn't say what the problems were. First is not always the best.

My gut is screaming SCUM! Contradiction in voting, general theory of who he supports and finds scum, and reads. Can we get anymore scummy? Now I get to say it and break my general rule cause I have hard EVIDENCE now. LYNCH THIS CLOWN! He is giving contradicting votes and reads on doc hunting.

UNVOTE, VOTE Iamopen2

[Wraith223]

My general Rule is that I don't bandwagons as they lynch often without evidence. I have hard/excellent evidence against Iamopen2 and am presenting my findings to group for evaluation.

PLEASE EVALUATE Iamopen2's posts: 113 and 150. Thoughts? Opinions?

[Jack]

Imopen2 didn't contradict himself. He voted for Murphy for similar reasons as I did. We're pretty much in agreement on almost all things. Because of this, I really hope imopen2 is town, because if he's scum, this post will be very bad for me when he's dead.

[Wraith223]

Imopen2 didn't contradict himself. He voted for Murphy for similar reasons as I did. We're pretty much in agreement on almost all things. Because of this, I really hope imopen2 is town, because if he's scum, this post will be very bad for me when he's dead.

You did vote Murphy as well. Why did I not notice that.

You at least played devils advocate better, but changing votes to against a NON-scum hunter is what caught my eye and gut. Yeah, if Iamopen2 roles scum; you will have to do some explaining.

[Jack]

Town
freedom
Wraith
Manders
imopen2
Null
Stardust
GR
Fate
Suga
raspy
Void
rez
Scum
zem
Murphy

[Link]

Imopen and freedom are both scum, we can only lynch one at a time Wraith.

Also freedom wasn't supporting doc hunting he was voting murphy what?

[rcwraspy]

Catching up on the thread. Was away from the computer yesterday, and likely will only be checking in today and tomorrow. Will be back up to full posting capacity on Tuesday.

Did a quick re-read. Quick reactions so far: Fate seems like a strong player, but I can't tell if he's leading us off a cliff. Initial posts very scummy, then says he "didn't realize how the setup worked" and changed to towny posts. I don't trust that yet.

Z seems to be buying it, though, which may indicate an alignment or may not. Can't tell yet. This stood out to me though:

I guess if we identify who we think we should doc; then the doc won't be in that list, which would substantially increase the chance of scum killing the doc

This isn't true.
You're forgetting that we also don't know who the Doc is, and therefore the person the group chooses to Doc may very well be the Doc him/her self.

BTW, we also SHOULD NOT CHOOSE WHO TO DOC PUBLICLY. Jeebus. Odds are the Doc will target either themselves (if that's allowed) or the strongest town read they have. Who do scum usually target for night kills? Confirmed townies, in order to sow more distrust in the town bloc on following days. The Doc will know what to do, but we have to allow the possibility for the scum to target the same person so both kills fail. That means giving them as little information as possible.

Don't see a reason to move my vote off Imopen right now, but I need to isolate his posts and make sure.

[Link]

lol at dat Z vote

[rcwraspy]

lol at dat Z vote

elaborate? you mean Z's vote, or Imopen's vote on Z?

[imopen2]

wraith, you're misreading again. I never supported doc hunting, and I never contradicted myself. I don't know if freedom is scum or not but the things zem was condemning him for were not things, therefore I doubt zem's towniness.

I see fate is failing to be a team-player this game too. lovely.

I'm fine with a murphy or a zem lynch. no one else at the moment