[Fedoras of Salvation] - White Knights ITT

photodyer · Postby **photodyer** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 9:11 am

Speaking of decklists...do we want to start a thread for competition-winning red-based decklists over in the Standard area? Or should we just add an addendum to the primer? Thoughts?

EDIT: For the moment, I put a sticky over in the red subforum of the brewery that can be updated with major competitive top 8 lists. We can easily copy/move them once we decide where they belong.

Yarpus · Postby **Yarpus** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 9:23 am

I believe we should create a brochure. Nice, nifty brochure in .pdf format with some sweet-ass graphics that explains how Red Decks do work. I mean, we are pretty damn talented bunch of fellows. Because you know, we can either watch these clowns being starters on "the easiest deck ever" or start to educate them so we can be proud of being Mountain Men. Such a brochure could be just few articles sticked together, DTP'd and improved from visual standpoint - and then sent into most of popular MTG information channels (MTGS, MTG Reddit, maybe even SCG so Cedric Philip can read some actual insults toward himself).
Opinions?

Lightning_Dolt · Postby **Lightning_Dolt** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:46 am

Based on this event:

[deck]Pyromancer Red[/deck]

More dedicated anti-UWx and Rx package, little lighter on cards for midrange. Post board YP gets out of control, when you take out the 1 drops for all the removal ever printed.

Scratching my head a little here... What's the one [card]
Mutavault[/card] in the sideboard for? Where do you want Legion Loyalist?

No love for Boros Reckoner?

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:47 am

Mutavault is for when I side into a control deck; or when I bring in the burning earth package against 3-colour control.
vs aggro - take out all the 1 drops, bring in all the removal + mutavault + hammer
vs control - take out 4 shock, 3 magma jet (I *think this is correct*) for 3 burning earth, 2 legion loyalist, 1 mutavault, 1 hammer of purphorous. if they're two colour control, just keep in all the Magma Jet.

Legion Loyalist is for Elspeth; I don't want to bring in 4 Flames, so the Loyalist is an extra 1 drop that can randomly blow them out if they tap-out for Elspeth.

Lightning_Dolt · Postby **Lightning_Dolt** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 11:08 am

Mutavault is for when I side into a control deck; or when I bring in the burning earth package against 3-colour control.
vs aggro - take out all the 1 drops, bring in all the removal + mutavault + hammer
vs control - take out 4 shock, 3 magma jet (I *think this is correct*) for 3 burning earth, 2 legion loyalist, 1 mutavault, 1 hammer of purphorous. if they're two colour control, just keep in all the Magma Jet.

Legion Loyalist is for Elspeth; I don't want to bring in 4 Flames, so the Loyalist is an extra 1 drop that can randomly blow them out if they tap-out for Elspeth.

Would Stormbreath Dragon maybe be better?

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 11:11 am

Quite possibly. Its a little weak against Esper. There is also a real tension between Hammer of Purphorous and including a 5 drop. Its worth testing still.

Lightning_Dolt · Postby **Lightning_Dolt** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 11:13 am

Quite possibly. Its a little weak against Esper. There is also a real tension between Hammer of Purphorous and including a 5 drop. Its worth testing still.

That's true, Hammer doesn't want you to hit five lands. I think hammer is likely better against Esper, but U/W seems to have no way to interact with dragon outside Vedict and Flare.

Lightning_Dolt · Postby **Lightning_Dolt** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 11:14 am

Also, what's your strategy for opposing Reckoners?

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 11:22 am

Just accept its usually going to be a 2-for-1. I am boarding out most of my vulnerable creatures post board, which minimizes the effect and I have access to a million 2-for-1s, so hopefully I can catch up easily enough. I think if you look at the majority of the cards in most RDW decks and compare them to how they line up to my cards, I feel I have access to more CA and overall card quality.

Lightning_Dolt · Postby **Lightning_Dolt** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 11:25 am

Just accept its usually going to be a 2-for-1. I am boarding out most of my vulnerable creatures post board, which minimizes the effect and I have access to a million 2-for-1s, so hopefully I can catch up easily enough. I think if you look at the majority of the cards in most RDW decks and compare them to how they line up to my cards, I feel I have access to more CA and overall card quality.

If you flames of the firebrand a reckoner, they don't get to split the damage, do they?

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 11:30 am

Lightning_Dolt · Postby **Lightning_Dolt** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 11:38 am

No.

OK, that's never come up, but it did just cross my mind.

DerWille · Postby **DerWille** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 11:41 am

Based on this event:

[deck]Pyromancer Red[/deck]

More dedicated anti-UWx and Rx package, little lighter on cards for midrange. Post board YP gets out of control, when you take out the 1 drops for all the removal ever printed.

I was thinking about Legion Loyalist after
seeing Elspeth basically end games against mono-red. Also a question about the sideboard, post sideboard when you're against aggro and on the play, do you keep your one drops in or do you stick to the no one drops all burn strategy?

Last, is [card]Pyromancer's Gauntlet[/card] a trap vs control and midrange? I've had a little testing with it and it basically turns Chandra's +1 into a must answer game ending threat. The burn in the deck just gets nuts with Lightning Strike become a 2 mana Lava Axe at instant speed. I was thinking it would be maybe a 1 of in the sideboard.

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 11:43 am

I always take out all my 1 drops. That's just preference though, I think there are reasonable arguments for both approaches.

I have no experience with Pyromancer's Gauntlet sorry.

Lightning_Dolt · Postby **Lightning_Dolt** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 11:46 am

I do kinda want to try the devotion deck...lol

photodyer · Postby **photodyer** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 12:28 pm

[card]Pyromancer's Gauntlet[/card] + Flames of the Firebrand = [cards]Lightning Bolt[/cards] x3. Regrettably Gauntlet is worded such that you can only tack 2 damage onto a given target...you can Bolt 3 different targets, but with fewer targets you lose the multiplier.

I don't know that I could justify trying it in a 5-drop-ready deck over a hasty dragon, but it's certainly fun in casual play.

Khaospawn · Postby **Khaospawn** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 1:01 pm

Z, how well do you think your Pyromancer deck will do against the Jace / Revelation decks? Just an honest question.

DerWille · Postby **DerWille** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 1:31 pm

[card]Pyromancer's Gauntlet[/card] + Flames of the Firebrand = [cards]Lightning Bolt[/cards] x3. Regrettably Gauntlet is worded such that you can only tack 2 damage onto a given target...you can Bolt 3 different targets, but with fewer targets you lose the multiplier.

I don't know that I could justify trying it in a 5-drop-ready deck over a hasty dragon, but it's certainly fun in casual play.

I was thinking that enhancing Chandra's +1 would be its main use. That's 2 lightning bolts every turn. The idea is that it would be a 1 of in the sideboard for long grindy games. Flames of the Firebrand tricks are nice, but I'm thinking that making Magma Jet and Lightning Strike go
for 4 and 5 to the dome would be a better use. Just close out the game. It's also not meant to be played on curve. More like you dig it up and you've got your Chandra engine going.

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 1:35 pm

Good question.

I think the straight UW decks are much tougher. Their mana is very good, you can't Burning Earth them and they don't get awkward draws full of scrylands and shocklands. Jace is a reasonable issue, as are chained revelations. Now the good news:
- they don't have cheap removal, so aggressive draws with multiple two power guys are very powerful. You have a lot of threat density and resilience to Supreme Verdict.
- they don't have cheap draw to bridge their early game into their endgame; they so with Jace and Divination; this gives you a lot of latitude to cast spells. All their answers are sorcery speed as well.
- Jace can usually be killed by what you have in play plus a burn spell, nixing him for card equality and some life; given your extreme threat density this is usually ok
- post board you have a reasonable amount of matchup specific cards

Esper is typically easier. The mana issues and
vulnerability to burning earth are in my experience, more relevant than their doom blades - your creatures were dying to everything anyway, and shocking yourself to doom blade a 2/x is pretty unexciting. These decks are also WAy easier to burn out.

Jace is the only real problem; and only if he resolves on an empty board. I think you have enough threats to give UW a decent game and I think you're a small favourite to esper. Grixis is easier as they have no life gain to speak of, so they're even more vulnerable to burn.

redthirst · Postby **redthirst** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 1:38 pm

But hey, black people have Cedric Philips. Take that black people!

Still too mean.

hamfactorial · Postby **hamfactorial** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 1:50 pm

I didn't watch any of the coverage, but you guys making fun of Cedric's Madden-isms had me laughing out loud while I was reading along. Well played, sirs.

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 1:57 pm

If UW becomes the premier control deck, all-in on Rakdos aggro. 1 mana hand disruption is SO good against that deck.

Something like ~

20 creatures
3 Chandra
1 hammer
14 spells
10 mountain
1 swamp
4 Rakdos Guildgate
4 Blood Crypt
3 Mutavault

With Duress plus Rakdos's Return in the board. I like Return a lot now that they have to tap out more, and when they're relying on walkers as win-cons.

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:02 pm

Shame there's no Cabal Therapy

Valdarith · Postby **Valdarith** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:11 pm

Last, is [card]Pyromancer's Gauntlet[/card] a trap vs control and midrange? I've had a little testing with it and it basically turns Chandra's +1 into a must answer game ending threat. The burn in the deck just gets nuts with Lightning Strike become a 2 mana Lava Axe at instant speed. I was thinking it would be maybe a 1 of in the sideboard.

It's not a trap at all. Actually those are the matches where you want it most. In midrange matchups you need the extra damage to make your Magma Jets and Lightning Strikes a red Doom Blade. It's great when you don't have to two-for-one yourself to kill a Loxodon Smiter or pumped Scavenging Ooze.

Against control, it's
basically another threat they have to answer. In this matchup I prefer to play a lot of threatening cards because they can't possibly counter all of them, so by the time I top my curve I have Chandra and the Gauntlet coming out and they have to make some hard decisions at that point.

Now in your deck I wouldn't run it. The Gauntlet requires a very specific deckbuild for inclusion and that's just not it. You have a much lower curve than my deck and are relying more on finishing the game quickly whereas my deck tends to play much more controlling games.

Valdarith · Postby **Valdarith** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:11 pm

Shame there's no Cabal Therapy

My favorite card in Legacy.

redthirst · Postby **redthirst** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:17 pm

Love the discussion in the Big Red Primer on Sally:

"RDW wins with Fanatic! Take that everyone who said we should run Ember Swallower instead in Big Red!"

RedNihilist · Postby **RedNihilist** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:19 pm

"The sun is hot, take that you people who said that water is wet!"

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:21 pm

Love the discussion in the Big Red Primer on Sally:

"RDW wins with Fanatic! Take that everyone who said we should run Ember Swallower instead in Big Red!"

They can always get more stupid. Yes, the SCG was clearly run by a Big Red deck...

redthirst · Postby **redthirst** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:22 pm

My argument was basically:

"Hey, AIR isn't running Anger of the Gods either, maybe the deck should drop that?"

JWarson88 · Postby **JWarson88** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:26 pm

Yes, listening to Cedric Philips can give you some kind of MTG-Cancer.
White people have Hitler and Stalin to be ashamed of. But hey, black people have Cedric Philips.

We also have OJ, Michael Jackson, Lebron James, Rodney King, Bobby Brown, Al Sharpton, Herman Cain who quoted a pokemon song in a speech... black people don't need Cedric Philips for atrocities against humanity.

windstrider · Postby **windstrider** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:35 pm

Love the discussion in the Big Red Primer on Sally:

"RDW wins with Fanatic! Take that everyone who said we should run Ember Swallower instead in Big Red!"

Hasty Generalizations! I got yer Hasty Generalizations right here! All for the low, low price of one, yes, just one Tournament, you too can make a Hasty Generalization!

There are certainly a lot of people mesmerized by the Whip of Erebos + Obzedat interaction.

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:37 pm

^ yeah I made the mistake of arguing the irrelevance if that interaction to Mono Red.

Khaospawn · Postby **Khaospawn** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:41 pm

Z, thanks for the insight. Battling Jace again really has me missing Stonewright, since I could just ignore Jace while pumping huge amounts of damage to the face.

I'm surprised that I didn't see a lot of Thoughtseize action during the event. Once the card picks up some steam, I'm hoping that the control players may adapt to fight through the hand hate and possibly open up a hole in their gameplan for us to exploit.

With that said, from the coverage I saw, the featured decks are just Block decks tweaked with Theros goodies. We didn't see the next "big thing" from this event, although I'm sure that it will happen after States. The format is still new and players are still brainstorming and tweaking.

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:48 pm

PurgetheProfane.dek sadly failed to make an impact.

windstrider · Postby **windstrider** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:53 pm

^ yeah I made the mistake of arguing the irrelevance if that interaction to Mono Red.

Saw that. You're arguing with the same guy who said that Burning Earth is irrelevant since there are ways to remove it. I told him to think about what kinds of decks run Burning Earth. He quite obviously didn't.

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:55 pm

He's a very active poster unfortunately.

Anyway, join Akex and I on stream tomorrow for our live discussion of mono red theory.

It's at 7am EST; so figure it out for yourselves.

Next video topic, Zemanjaski on Mono Red #2: Mono Red Card Evaluation

- AIR vs Sligh vs RDW vs Kuroda; key differences in strategy and how this affects card evaluation
- some thoughs on 1 drops
- tension in the two drop slot; Ash Zealot vs BTE; YP vs GHC vs FFS and deck building concessions based on these choices
- burn, what's most appropriate for your archetype?

RedNihilist · Postby **RedNihilist** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 3:05 pm

1 pm CET?
Sh#t T_T

I seriously hope you're going to register it T_T

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 3:05 pm

Yeah that problem is resolved.

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 3:25 pm

Also subscribe if you haven't anyway, I want twitch to hook me up with goodies.

Helios · Postby **Helios** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 3:26 pm

6 am CST. That's early, but I have an 8 am anyway. Will drop by for a bit.

RE: PyroRed v. Esper: I played several games of that yesterday, and despite having shit hands every game (flooding, getting stuck on 2 with reasonable keeps, etc.) managed to win 4/5. Also won on a mulligan to 5. He didn't get color-screwed ever, which was surprising, but those lands coming into play tapped certainly hurts.

Dies to Removal

[Fedoras of Salvation] - White Knights ITT

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