THS Burn

[hamfactorial]

[deck]THS Burn[/deck]

Shock might just be unnecessary, but it goes to the face in game 1 where Mizzium Mortars might sit around dead.

22 red sources means Hammer, Phoenix and Weird out of the side are consistent. 10 white sources is a bare minimum for single [mana]W[/mana] cards like Boros Charm, Warleader's Helix and Aurelia's Fury. 14 sources turns on Blind
Obedience consistently. Hammer turns flood into dudes, Chandra draws extra cards. Might be good! Chained to the Rocks out of the side can deal with big dudes like Desecration Demon and all the gods. Wear // Tear is available to deal with enchantments.

The lack lifegain in the format makes burn quite attractive. Burning Earth might even be a worthwhile sideboard option for us.

[Ascension]

You could splash black for the black god, lets you draw more burn spells and stop life gain not sure if it's actually good or not just throwing the idea out there.

[Aodh]

Ham, I'd love to help develop this deck. I'll likely be running RDW or Boros Blitz at States to prey on scryland decks, but once the metagame stabilizes, I'll happily join this train (provided it sounds reasonable).

RE: black god; that does sound reasonable, but not sure if it's good. Probably better against Trostani.dec than Skullcrack.

[Valdarith]

I posted this over on my UR Midrange primer but it's likely it belongs here instead. Allow me to share:

[deck]
Creatures (14)
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Frostburn Weird
4 Guttersnipe
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Spells (23)
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
4 Turn / Burn
4 Izzet Charm
4 Steam Augury
3 Chandra, Pyromaster

Lands (23)
4 Steam Vents
4 Izzet Guildgate
10 Mountain
5 Island

Sideboard (15)
2 Frostburn Weird
4 Skullcrack
4 Mizzium Mortars
2 Izzet Staticaster
3 Burning Earth
[/deck]

Big reasons for blue are Steam Augury for more card advantage and Turn / Burn to deal with creatures out of burn range like Desecration Demon. Izzet Charm is a great early-game counterspell and can also be used to burn creatures or filter the hand. The filter ability works especially well with Chandra's Phoenix. Once you get a Pyromancer and/or Guttersnipe online, it's pretty much GG. I feel like the deck has a ton of
reach.

[hamfactorial]

You could splash black for the black god, lets you draw more burn spells and stop life gain not sure if it's actually good or not just throwing the idea out there.

That's an interesting idea. I'd replace the plains with Godless Shrines to have enough black to cast her. It would also make Dreadbore / Doom Blade an option if we needed to take a more controlling route.

I think I like Chandra more, especially thinking of all the life I'd have to pay to draw cards and play my shocks. Certainly worth testing though!

[hamfactorial]

Val:

I like that UR list a lot. Izzet Charm in particular is a blowout when your opponent isn't playing around counters.

[Valdarith]

Val:

I like that UR list a lot. Izzet Charm in particular is a blowout when your opponent isn't playing around counters.

It sure is. I like the card's flexibility, especially in a deck running Chandra. It's also nice that it's a cantrip any time I cast it with a Phoenix in hand.

I want to run other counters in my deck but I need to test for effectiveness. Obviously +0 to reveal a counter is terrible but if I only run a couple I should be able to reduce the chance of that occuring, especially with Magma Jet.

The biggest thing the blue splash offers is resistance to Desecration Demon. It seems like that guy is all over the place lately. Granted, Young Pyromancer already mitigates him somewhat, but it's nice to have a
backup plan. Blood Baron in game one could be another reason, but I'm not certain if he's as threatening to a deck like this.

[hamfactorial]

I just laughed out loud at the synergy between Turn // Burn and Chandra.

The deck might use some quantity of Cyclonic Rift for the max tempo lulz.

[Valdarith]

I just laughed out loud at the synergy between Turn // Burn and Chandra.

The deck might use some quantity of Cyclonic Rift for the max tempo lulz.

Voyage's End is better for the scry effect, but I think that may be going too deep. What would you take out? The Weirds maybe?

It's never dead because we can always bounce one of our dudes in response to a removal spell.

[hamfactorial]

I saw Voyage's End, but I like Cyclonic Rift's ability to target permanents like gods, indestructible enchantments and planeswalkers that would normally give us troubles. It sets them up for an Izzet Charm on the re-cast.

[hamfactorial]

I think I'd cut the Guttersnipes and up my spell count for Young Pyro. I really like Frostburn Weird for surviving the early turns vs aggro.

[Valdarith]

I actually enjoy the reach Guttersnipe provides. If not removed immediately he gets way out of hand. I've played a lot of games with and without him and I always find myself going back to him. Four may be too many since he's actually best in turns five and above, so maybe -1 Guttersnipe, -1 Turn /Burn, -1 Steam Augury for three Voyage's End?

I don't think bouncing permanents with Rift is relevant for us. The only counters we run are Izzet Charm and our opponent can easily play around that card. I'm not worried about any of the gods anyway. I can't think of any permanent I'd want to bounce that's not a creature. We can race Assemble the Legion and burn out planeswalkers relatively easily.

[deschain]

Ham, any thoughts on putting Reckoner in? His interaction with anger of the gods is pretty nifty.

[Ascension]

Ham, any thoughts on putting Reckoner in? His interaction with anger of the gods is pretty nifty.

Looking for the new Blasphemous Act combo already eh?

[Jack]

Ham, any thoughts on putting Reckoner in? His interaction with anger of the gods is pretty nifty.

Reckoner in a burn deck? Where'd you come up with that idea? I will say that he and Anger do serve a similar purpose (neutralize the opponent's boad)

[JWarson88]

I know the black splash is light in Ham's list but have you tested shifting the color count to make use of deathrite shaman? And as for reckoner, I think he makes great sb tech for against aggro. I played a mono red burn list at a theros ptq and i honestly should have maindecked it but I was in "fuck it I don't have the cards for big red so I'll just troll on jund" mode. That was only instant i found vexing devil remotely playable and I still regret putting it in the deck.

[zemanjaski]

Ham, any thoughts on putting Reckoner in? His interaction with anger of the gods is pretty nifty.

There isn't an interaction redbro.

Also, deck wants 1x Thassa.

[deschain]

Reckoner in a burn deck? Where'd you come up with that idea? I will say that he and Anger do serve a similar purpose (neutralize the opponent's boad)

RDW? had I think a full set of reckoners in the SB in his dega burn list (couldn't confirm, all pre rotation threads appear to be deleted), so I kinda thought it deserves to be considered in the SB at least.

Although you're right that anger and he do somewhat serve the same purpose as anti aggro, I think Reckoner at least potentially attacks the other guy's life total, which I'd assume is the purpose of a burn deck.

There isn'
t an interaction redbro.

Also, deck wants 1x Thassa.

er, maybe interaction is the wrong word? I English bad

[Valdarith]

Also, deck wants 1x Thassa.

Didn't even think of that.

[Elricity]

Here's the deck I'm trying. The burn varients really need to consider going to 4 Chandra because you need that card advantage.

[deck]
Creatures

4 young pyromancer
4 boros reckoner
4 chandra's phoenix
2 purphoros, god of the forge

Spells

4 chandra, pyromaster
2 hammer of purphoros
4 magma jet
4 boros charm
4 lightning strike
4 warleader's helix

Lands

10 mountain
2 plains
4 sacred foundry
4 temple of triumph
2 mutavault
2 nykthos, shrine to nyx

Sideboard

2 act of treason
2 mizzium mortars
4 chained to the rocks
4 anger of the gods
3 wear // tear
[/deck]

Orzhov has been the most challenging since ghost council, desecration demon, and blood baron each require different answers or two for one with burn spells.

Has anyone been able to test any of their builds yet?

[Valdarith]

I don't have Cockatrice unfortunately so no testing for me. I've been acquiring cards on MODO in anticipation of rotation and I hope to stream some videos of me testing the deck.

[hamfactorial]

I'll be testing my RW version on MTGO once THS is released. I tested an INN/RTR Dega version with better mana and it was good, but not tier 1 vs all of the maindeck lifegain in the format.

[Elricity]

Speaking of lifegain, why skullcrack? There's not enough of it left to be worth a spot in the 75 and it was never a good answer when there was. We aren't running enough creatures for the damage prevention clause to matter either.

[Aodh]

I don't know how much recent standard burn you've played, but Skullcrack was crucial in keeping our heads above water against Thragtusk and Sphinx's Revelation decks. Skullcrack was weak in aggressive decks because it forced reactiveness instead of proactiveness. In burn, especially R(w), the deck was naturally reactive and flashy, so Skullcrack was a natural inclusion. I don't know if it still merits maindeckability with the leaving of Thragtusk, but it is certainly important in this kind of archetype.

[hamfactorial]

In a burn deck, every spell gets compared to the damage/card ratio of Lightning Bolt. If it can't do 3+ damage, then it better provide some other benefit like Magma Jet (scry), be relevant like against a meta with lots of x/2 creatures (Shock), recursive (Phoenix), make other spells better (Blind Obedience) or give you extra draw steps to find more burn (Chandra). Skullcrack isn't flexible, but it always does 3 damage.

If there were better burn in the format, Shock would go first, then Skullcrack.

[hamfactorial]

Here's my latest list, cutting the shocks and going for more mana.
[Deck]
Creatures:3
3 Chandra's Phoenix

Spells:33
2 Blind Obedience
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Skullcrack
3 Annihilating Fire
3 Flames of the Firebrand
2 Hammer of Purphoros
3 Chandra, Pyromaster
4 Warleader's Helix

Lands:24
4 Blood Crypt
10 Mountain
2 Plains
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph

Sideboard:15
2 Chained to the Rocks
1 Aurelia's Fury
4 Frostburn Weird
4 Mizzium Mortars
3 Anger of the Gods
1 Chandra, Pyromaster[/deck]

[Valdarith]

I'm not sure if the Skullcrack question was directed at me or Ham (pehaps both?), but I have four copies in my sideboard because it is a direct replacement for Turn / Burn against UW. The block constructed version of that deck ran only Aetherling as a finisher and that makes Turn / Burn suboptimal. Swapping in Skullcrack for the extra damage and lifegain mitigation is big.

[Elricity]

In a burn deck, every spell gets compared to the damage/card ratio of Lightning Bolt. If it can't do 3+ damage, then it better provide some other benefit like Magma Jet (scry), be relevant like against a meta with lots of x/2 creatures (Shock), recursive (Phoenix), make other spells better (Blind Obedience) or give you extra draw steps to find more burn (Chandra). Skullcrack isn't flexible, but it always does 3 damage.

If there were better burn in the format, Shock would go first, then Skullcrack.

I agree on pulling shock first, I was just surprised that boros charm and warleader's helix hadn't been 4 of's first in the original build before going skullcrack. Second build looks better but I think 4 Chandra is vital. If she doesn't die
immediately, she's basically 3 damage per turn with your build. No other spell in your deck does that.

Edit:

Valradith, it was for both of you. I'm not familiar with the izzet build yet so wanted to see what I was missing.

Aodh, I did run agro last season so that may be it. I didn't want to rely on having mana up, the spell in hand, etc. Act of treason I could cast at any time on thragtusk and usually do more damage than skullcrack.

[hamfactorial]

Agreed, the first version had a lot of questionable stuff going on. I've been goldfishing with my second list and I've found that Blind Obedience is probably unnecessary. I'm likely to cut them for a 25th land and experiment with a maindeck Aurelia's Fury or 4th Chandra.

[Elricity]

If you go maindeck Fury, let me know how that goes. I've been concerned to try it even with running Nykthos. Drawing it off Chandra is my worst fear.

[Valdarith]

In a burn deck, every spell gets compared to the damage/card ratio of Lightning Bolt. If it can't do 3+ damage, then it better provide some other benefit like Magma Jet (scry), be relevant like against a meta with lots of x/2 creatures (Shock), recursive (Phoenix), make other spells better (Blind Obedience) or give you extra draw steps to find more burn (Chandra). Skullcrack isn't flexible, but it always does 3 damage.

If there were better burn in the format, Shock would go first, then Skullcrack.

I agree on pulling shock first, I was just surprised that boros charm and warleader'
s helix hadn't been 4 of's first in the original build before going skullcrack. Second build looks better but I think 4 Chandra is vital. If she doesn't die immediately, she's basically 3 damage per turn with your build. No other spell in your deck does that.

Edit:

Valradith, it was for both of you. I'm not familiar with the izzet build yet so wanted to see what I was missing.

Aodh, I did run agro last season so that may be it. I didn't want to rely on having mana up, the spell in hand, etc. Act of treason I could cast at any time on thragtusk and usually do more damage than skullcrack.

For aggro decks Skullcrack is certainly underwhelming. These burn decks will typically be playing during our opponent's turn though.

[hamfactorial]

The miser's Aurelia's Fury isn't very good. I'm going to jam the 4th Chandra instead, moving up to 25 land and running a single Hammer.

What I like about this deck is that Chandra lets you reload if you need to spend burn on opposing creatures.

[Elricity]

Figured that'd be the case with fury.

What in your testing made you decide to cut the 2nd hammer?

[hamfactorial]

The hammer is a dead draw before turn 5 or 6, sort of a relief valve for flood. The 4 Temples and 4 Magma Jets help me shuffle away extra land, so the Hammer is often sitting in my hand looking sad.

I'm considering Pyromancer's Gauntlet in its place. Probably bad but it has better upside if Chandra is already on the board. Casual +1: into Searing Blaze?

[zemanjaski]

4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Young Pyromancer

3 Chandra, Pyromaster

4 Boros Charm
4 Flames of the Firebrand
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Shock
4 Skull Crack
1 Warleader's Helix

1 Pyromancer's Gauntlet

1 Boros Guildgate
4 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
6 Mountain
4 Plains

[Valdarith]

4x maindeck FotF makes me happy in pants.

[zemanjaski]

If you're running Gauntlet, how can you not?

[hamfactorial]

[Deck]Creatures:3
3 Chandra's Phoenix

Spells:26
3 Shock
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Annihilating Fire
4 Flames of the Firebrand
3 Warleader's Helix

Planeswalkers:3
3 Chandra, Pyromaster

Artifacts:2
1 Hammer of Purphoros
1 Pyromancer's Gauntlet

Lands:26
14 Mountain
4 Plains
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph

Sideboard:15
4 Chained to the Rocks
4 Mizzium Mortars
4 Anger of the Gods
2 Peak Eruption
1 Staff of the Flame Magus[/deck]

As much as I hate playing Shock, it helps to fill in the turns where I have spare mana left up. In my goldfish games where I drew an early Phoenix, they ended on average a full turn earlier.

The hammer and the gauntlet are both absurd when I draw them in the midgame.

I've gone up to 26 land because hitting my early land drops is critical. It almost plays like a control list where I'm trying to trade 1 for 1 until I get Thunder Thighs
online and tighten the noose.

[zemanjaski]

No Mutavault?

[hamfactorial]

Haven't tried to squeeze in any Mutavaults yet, colored requirements are pretty rough unless I use guildgates.