So, I noticed this site either doesn't have a sell/trade forum, or I'm just blind. I shall assume the former until proven otherwise. And even then, I'll probably reject such apparent realities, because I am never wrong.
Seriously, though. Is there a reason for this?
Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:17 pm
by admin
The only reason is that no-one showed interest up to now.
We can set up something, but I'd like to hear some opinions. Do we set just a pinboard? something more elaborate ala MTGS? If so how will we moderate and track things, avoid rips, etc...
The community should voice what they expect from the site regarding this.
Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:32 pm
by Sir Sapphire the 3rd
I think Allowing trades could be OK but at a YOUR OWN RISK. Moderating it is a fucking nightmare. Its fine when the amount of people are small but the more you get the bigger the issues.
Maybe set it where you must be established member before you can be allowed in?
Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 12:08 am
by ( G_R )
I think Allowing trades could be OK but at a YOUR OWN RISK. Moderating it is a fucking nightmare. Its fine when the amount of people are small but the more you get the bigger the issues.
Maybe set it where you must be established member before you can be allowed in?
This sounds like a good idea. We could also use an iTrader mod, but I only found abandoned ones:
Well, however conditional it may be, I think a trade/buy section would be a nice little inclusion.
Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:17 am
by redthirst
Three subs:
B/S/T MTG Section
B/S/T Non-MTG Section
B/S/T Feedback
Rule is that you B/S/T at your own risk. Other "rules" are basically suggestions on how not to get ripped off: don't "gift" PayPal, trade with people with feedback, suggested 3rd party trading services, etc.
Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:12 pm
by redthirst
Some B/S/T rules written for another forum I frequent:
The rules are simple:
1.) Post an ad not a link
B/S/T threads that consist solely of links to ads placed on other websites are not permitted.
2.) State a price
Sale ads must state a specific price. No auctions or fishing for competing offers will be tolerated. Be advised that moderators may issue warnings or infractions when a user ad is deemed to be a veiled attempt at fishing for a price or otherwise violates the B/S/T rules.
2.1.) Paypal Fees and Gifting
You can not ask for fees to be paid by the buyer. Fees are a cost of doing business. To get exactly $50, search for paypal fee calculator in a search engine, and ask for the amount that would give you $50 after fees. Buyers will not pay for fees.
Gifting is also not allowed. If at any point a seller asks the buyer to send money as a gift, they will be banned. Never, NEVER,
never send money as a gift. Gifting means you gave the money freely, so if no product is sent, there is no recourse from the buyers point of view. If paypal finds out you lied about the gift, it's the buyer that gets banned, not the seller. In gifting the buyer takes all responsibility, and therefore the buyer should NEVER gift.
3.) Be honest about the condition
Be clear, honest in your descriptions of items for sale or trade and fully disclose any issues that the item has.
4.) Please use proper English.
Internet slang, foul language and the use of symbols in B/S/T is discouraged and extreme examples or deliberate disregard of this rule may result in thread closings or other sanctions.
5.) B/S/T thread titles should be clear and concise.
The use of unnecessary symbols or emphasis such as capitals, etc. will result in editing and/or closing until in compliance with this rule.
6.) Extra Search Terms, or Site Names in Pictures is not Allowed.
Adding extra search terms or
including pictures which identify or link to other websites is not permitted. Such items will be summarily removed and repeat violators of this rule may be issued infraction points.
7.) Upping your Thread
Yes, sometimes your post will fall back a page or two. You may "UP" the post by replying to it once every 24 hours. Threads that are “Upp'd” by the (original) poster more than once a day will be closed.
8.) No PayPal (or other payment processing system) fees to buyer
Do not make a sales price and then add that the buyer must pay an additional % to cover your PayPal (or other payment processing system) fees. Those fees are for the SELLER, not the BUYER. If you want to cover those standard selling/transaction fees please adjust your sales price accordingly before posting the thread.
9.) Violation of BST rules will result in thread closure or locking and may result in the issuance of infractions to the offending user. Repeated violations and the
accumulation of infraction points may result in temporary or permanent ban from either theB/S/T forum or the website as a whole.
ADENDUM: From time to time a sale on [site] does not go as planned. Often buyers and sellers whose transactions were not completed in a satisfactory manner will contact a moderator for help with a resolution.
[site] is not responsible for incomplete transactions: This is the internet and a 'buyer beware' policy is expected to be understood by all members. [site] does not profit from the sales section, and makes no guarantees or assurances regarding these transaction. [site] offers a FEEDBACK area for all sales. IF a member has an issue with a sale he or she may make 1 post detailing their experience in a feedback thread. The feedback thread is not a place for dialogue; only for a recounting of an experience from either or both sides of the transaction.
If a buyer or seller feels that they have been treated unfairly or a product was not delievered, it is up to this
member to take the necessary steps to achieve a satisfactory remedy. These steps may include contacting paypal, contacting the local authorities or a lawyer. The burden of following this process rests with the complainant.
[site] moderators are not in a position to deliver a financial remedy, or force the hand of another member based on a transaction with which [site] staff had no part. [site] moderators adopt a 'hands off policy' in all such matters, but reserve the right to issue infractions or bans at all times for unacceptable behaviour as per the existing rules.
If you are unhappy with a transaction, please follow these steps: contact the member via p.m. or telephone. IF no resolution is obtained please attempt a remedy via the feedback thread, local authorities, or other means.
That was written by a civil lawyer with liability in mind, iirc, so it should be sufficient to cover the staff's collective ass.
Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:22 pm
by ( G_R )
Our very own lawyer (Az) can double-check that. Thanks.
Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:41 pm
by Sir Sapphire the 3rd
I think Allowing trades could be OK but at a YOUR OWN RISK. Moderating it is a fucking nightmare. Its fine when the amount of people are small but the more you get the bigger the issues.
Maybe set it where you must be established member before you can be allowed in?
This sounds like a good idea. We could also use an iTrader mod, but I only found abandoned ones:
After thinking on it I am really liking the established member requirement. The only issue is What is considered established?
Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:43 pm
by Second Harkius
1000 posts or more
Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:47 pm
by ( G_R )
I think Allowing trades could be OK but at a YOUR OWN RISK. Moderating it is a fucking nightmare. Its fine when the amount of people are small but the more you get the bigger the issues.
Maybe set it where you must be established member before you can be allowed in?
This sounds like a good idea. We could also use an iTrader mod, but I only found abandoned ones:
After thinking on it I am really liking the established member requirement. The only issue is What is considered established?
Yeah, my "also" should be read as "in addition". And what the superfluous man said.
Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:53 pm
by Sir Sapphire the 3rd
1000 posts or more
In most cases I would say That is a lot but considering how vocal the forum is 1000 Isnt that hard and Not too easy.
Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:18 pm
by Manders
Especially since posts count in every section, yeah, I think 1,000 is enough to deem someone "established."
I will say, though, that I'm skeptical of doing this, but that's just based on me knowing how much of a pain in the ass Market Street is. I don't think we have a Galspanic willing/able to dedicate that amount of time trying to ensure no one gets fucked over.
So I have to concur that if we do this, it be VERY apparent that it will be AT YOUR OWN RISK.
Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:27 pm
by redthirst
1000 posts is an odd rule - I mean, if you use a feedback system it's not like someone will be able to create an account, buy a ton of stuff, have the guy ship and not pay.
People have enough sense not to sell to or buy from someone with no feedback without some kind of 3rd party system without making that a rule.
Besides, with a 1000 post limit, the vast majority of members on this site couldn't use B/S/T...
Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:31 pm
by Kaitscralt
1000 posts is an odd rule - I mean, if you use a feedback system it's not like someone will be able to create an account, buy a ton of stuff, have the guy ship and not pay.
People have enough sense not to sell to or buy from someone with no feedback without some kind of 3rd party system without making that a rule.
Besides, with a 1000 post limit, the vast majority of members on this site couldn't use B/S/T...
Actually people do not have enough sense, it's why people are continuously ripped off by people wih no feedback. Also the feedback system is faulty anyways because the best Salvation rippers would do 20ish small trades then earn "you ship first" rights over tons of people and rip them out of tons of cards. It's the
classic ripper move.
Making someone establish themselves as part of the community requires a lot of commitment before they can rip anyone off.
Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:34 pm
by redthirst
Okay. I just find it odd that the only people who will be allowed to trade under the rule will be the people that didn't see any need in establishing a B/S/T in the first place.
Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:36 pm
by Checkbox
For now.
Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:36 pm
by Sir Sapphire the 3rd
Most rippers wont want to make 1000+ posts. More so that they are VERY noticed when day 2 of them being here and 1000+ starts coming quick. Its easy to determine if they aren't even worth keeping around due to mass spam just to spam.
Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:37 pm
by Blackhound
Sometimes even established members can rip people unfortunatly.
In my opinion its established members only Or None at all. Granted just my 2 cents.
Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:53 pm
by redthirst
I mean, I have little pity on buyers who get ripped - PayPal has protection if you don't gift the money.
Exactly - there are plenty of ways to avoid getting ripped off if you're not an idiot and the staff's stance on liability is pretty clear - so what good does "establishing yourself in the community" with an arbitrary number of posts do?
You might prevent a few people from getting ripped off here (which will do the site no good since it's not liable anyway) at the expense of ostracizing potential members when they can't participate in the B/S/T area - something every forum I've been to has allowed to be open to anyone with an
account.
Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:33 pm
by Kazekirimaru
I can't say I'm a fan of the 1000 post rule. >.>
Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:46 pm
by Dodger
I'm fine with the 1000 posts rule, or maybe 500. I know we've all made this our adoptive home and I'm grateful they've took us and for the most part listen to us despite being a bunch of noobs but we can't expect them to do everything we ask. I like the established poster rule. It's not perfect but it does help feel like you are helping an upstanding member of the community and not somebody just looking to do some trades.
Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:48 pm
by Second Harkius
500-1000 posts takes time and effort (it also promotes healthy community participation). 20 trades can be done in a week or two. I'd be more inclined to trust a user with 500+ posts than a new user with ~50 posts and 20 feedback.
This method isn't foolproof but it beats the MTGS system where a user could register and start ripping within a week.
Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:59 pm
by Tom Servo
I won't see a thousand posts for awhile, but if that ends up the standard I'm fine with it. No matter what the requirement, I'm on board with traders having to establish themselves in some way.
Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:04 pm
by Kaitscralt
It's worth trying, we can always abandon it if it doesn't pan out.
Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 11:17 pm
by Pendulum
I'll go ahead and provide my two cents since I did a bunch of research on this for MageCraft and all. I can't say I approve of the must-post limitation, that seems like it'd bottleneck the traders, and honestly I know it's a pain in the ass but having a staff to help traders (whether shit's hitting the fan or they just have general questions) seems like it provides better dividends than a laissez-faire policy.
Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 11:20 pm
by Pendulum
'Course Gals is a member here so maybe he'll weigh in.
Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 11:52 pm
by ( G_R )
We could offer him a position...
Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 12:38 am
by Sir Sapphire the 3rd
no
Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 12:42 am
by Pendulum
We could have some kind of admin exchange program, we get Gals for a week to build our trading section and we could send them Scumbag to... um... I don't know exactly what but it would be fun to watch.
Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 12:45 am
by Second Harkius
Is Pendy derailing the discussion?
Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 1:14 am
by Pendulum
I'm just confused. Some of the ideas here fly in the face of what I know of the online MTG trading community (as a whole).
Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 1:27 am
by ( G_R )
Well, the thing is that some (most?) sites want to draw members because of their trading scene, but in our case (and this is my personal opinion) our site merely wants to provide a trading facility to the members of our community. The post limit basically says that people can trade here as long as they are already part of the community, people merely interested in trading, but taking no part of the rest of the site can find other avenues for their potentially risky business.
Like I said, just my Q0.02
Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 2:05 am
by Pendulum
Ah, thank you, that clears things up!
My concern is basically this: while I haven't had the time as of late to do many card alters, and haven't ever done more with them than traded them to my IRL friends/played with them, but if I ever do get back into it as a member of this community I'd probably post them here (the lax rules on SFW content means I could post stuff here that would probably get me banned elsewhere, lol); I would enjoy the opportunity to trade them as well, but would be a little sad that members who haven't found their feet in the community would have extra hoops to jump through to do that, as from what I've determined there aren't a lot of current, established members who dig the hentai tentacle porn.
Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 2:21 am
by Sir Sapphire the 3rd
Trading here should be considered a reward in some aspects and a privilege. Not a right nor a draw to the site. I rather have A lot of people elsewhere on this forum enjoying themselves then many JUST here for trading like other places where the environment becomes very toxic to itself.
Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 2:32 am
by Col. Khaddafi
We could have some kind of admin exchange program, we get Gals for a week to build our trading section and we could send them Scumbag to... um... I don't know exactly what but it would be fun to watch.
you want to send me to the rape cave for a week?
Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 2:37 am
by Manders
I understand that other MtG sites allow people to start trading upon registration, but those site also have vastly more manpower to protect their members from theft that we do/will have. While I understand we won't be LEGALLY responsible for any theft that occurs on our site, I feel MORAL responsibility to do everything in my power to protect our members. For this reason, I cannot, in all good conscience, agree to a trade forum without limitations on who can use it.
Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 2:38 am
by Manders
We could have some kind of admin exchange program, we get Gals for a week to build our trading section and we could send them Scumbag to... um... I don't know exactly what but it would be fun to watch.
you want to send me to the rape cave for a week?
(Way to forget to logout of admin account, Scumbag. )
)