Dies to Removal

Dredgeless Dredgevine or "Die hard with a vengevine"

This is my current modern project deck. I've not taken it to any level of tournament, but I have tested it agains several decks, both established and rogue. Before I get into the build that I'm using, I think it would be prudent to discuss other takes on the deck that I am aware of.

Dredge builds--my understanding of these is that they utilize actual dredge cards to fill the yard and generate card advantage. The lists that I've seen seem to focus on stinkweed imp, life from the loam, and darkblast. Now, I must admit, I've not tried a list with dredge cards, so I'd love to hear about opinions on that. However, ultimately, I don't think the benefit is enough to warrant such inclusions. I'd be more inclined to try dredge if something like
cycling lands existed or maybe if the vengevine didn't need creature casts. I mean, eh.

Red builds--This is where I started. The deck is essentially B/G with a R splash. The R is used primarily for faithless looting as an enabler. At the insistence of Redthirst, I've tried one of these builds and, I get why looting is something the deck would want, but I've been unimpressed with it after the first few turns. I feel like looting increases the explosiveness of the deck if drawn early, but it is close to "mill two" later on. For reference, this is the build I monkeyed with.

[deck]
4 Gravecrawler
4 Diregraf Ghoul
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Oona's Prowler
4 Bloodghast
4 Vengevine

3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Faithless Looting
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Lightning Bolt

4 Overgrown Tomb
3 Blood Crypt
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Twilight Mire
3 Swamp[/deck]

Eh, I'm not in love with the three color manabase and,
outside of the times when you had crazy vengevine turn twos, I've had better luck with straight G/B builds. For the record, this is probably the best build for crazy vengevine turn twos though.

I've also avoided blasting station because it did not perform well in testing.

I went in a more midrange direction, while trying to maintain the potential speed of the deck. Below is my current list:

[deck]
4 Gravecrawler
4 Diregraf Ghoul
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Bloodghast
2 Oona's Prowler
4 Vengevine

3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Thoughtseize
2 Big Game Hunter

4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
3 Woodland Cemetery
2 Twilight Mire
1 Forest
4 Swamp
[/deck]

Depending on your hand and what you think needs to happen, there are several ways to go on a typical opener. Sometimes you just run zombies out and try for the beatdown. This seems to work pretty well, but you may end up hardcasting
vengevine. Using DRS it is feasible to get out turn two vengevines. However, an important decision lies in whether or not to occasionally hold a one drop to enable a 'vine in the yard on turn three or later. Thoughtseize is an odd card in this list. On the one hand, it is premium disruption that provides you important information. On the other hand, sometimes playing it on turn one slows you down quite a bit, while playing it on turn three (when you may have the extra mana) often reduces the quality of what you can grab.

I think the only non-obvious choice is big game hunter. His obvious synergy exists in the ability to discard and then cast him. The effect is desirable in this list, as it often catches cards that Decay misses. Moreover, with an enabler online, he is another creature for 1cc, so it helps to get the 'vines out of the yard. Unfortunately, his ETB effect is not a may, so you occasionally have to be careful about shooting your own
troll or vine. At this point, I'm not sure he's the best card for the job, but I've like him enough times to keep him in.

testing results: this represents just me playing with friends rather than anything more serious. However, it does represent the decks I've had a chance to play against multiple times, rather than just once or twice.

Teachings: This seems to go very well. They try to set up a long game, while our creatures just keep coming back. Moreover, sometimes you just outrun them. Even if they board in GY hate, it just doesn't go well most of the time.

Mono-U Tron: This is harder than you might imagine. Since they just essentially stall until they win it often takes a very fast start for a clean win. However, thoughtseize really makes a difference as they have a lot of lynchpin cards. Abrupt decay is nearly worthless though.

Robots: Jeez this deck is fast. Basically, you have little
chance of racing the bastards. Decay is awesome here and Hunter does a fair amount of work as well. A major problem lies in Inkmoth Nexus, as we have no solution to it. I suspect this match-up can be shored up after board.

RDW: Kind of a rogue build, but running reasonable cards. Koth was the only "odd" choice, but it actually worked to his advantage against me. Unlike robots, with a good hand I could race him. With removal, my recursive, slightly better threats usually got theirs. However, when all I had was zombies, it was tough.

Obviously this is a very preliminary build, but modern FNMs are starting to pop up and I'd like to consider this. Any suggestions/comments are welcome. Thanks in advance!

The little bit of testing I've done has shown Looting to be great, but I'm not sure it's required. I do want to try out Big Game Hunter now.

How have you found the Thoughtseizes to be working? They seem extraneous.
I'll also add my $.02 that while I've only played the +Red version, it is really good for the deck. Looting always allowed me to get absolutely absurd with mulligans, for instance.

Thoughtseize is...not always great. I'm actually thinking it might should be in the board.

Looting was just awesome early on, but drawing several sucked and I tended to have emptied my hand by midgame often enough I wanted something else.

Really, now that I'm looking at it, I could say the same thing about thoughtseize.

Oh yeah, and I loved Bob in the deck against everything that wasn't Aggro.

Well, maybe I'll go with that over the 'seize.

Also, more creatures=better here.

I don't hate seize in the board - it's probs pretty good against combo.

It's probably more my bias than anything--I really like first turn thoughtseize, it's the best feeling in mtg.

But yeah, it can safely be in the board. I just wanted some way of slowing down less "fair" decks.

Bob just seems better than 'Seize in every way.

When I was playing a version of this, my least favorite card was always the Oona's Prowlers, and with Bob in there it just seems like a dumb card to have to me. How are they working for you? I'm also tempted to suggest you scale back a land for the 2-color version, since you don't have looting to smooth your draws or 'Loam to get them back, but if Bob's joining the party that might not be necessary.

There were plenty of turns when I went crack fetch, get shock, play 1 mana card... I don't think I'd want to follow that up with an additional 2 life lost against a lot of decks.

Of course that's probably less likely with only two colors.

And prowler is also my least favorite card, but you absolutely need something in play/hand to get cards in the yard and it fits that criteria.

I also cut down to 20 land.

I experimented with a 4 colour version, featuring Lingering Souls and Tidehallow Sculler. Will try to dig up my notes.

Bob just seems better than 'Seize in every way.

When I was playing a version of this, my least favorite card was always the Oona's Prowlers, and with Bob in there it just seems like a dumb card to have to me. How are they working for you? I'm also tempted to suggest you scale back a land for the 2-color version, since you don't have looting to smooth your draws or 'Loam to get them back, but if Bob's joining the party that might not be necessary.

Honestly, I was a little against bob before I had played with this a bit (stupid 4cc). At this point, I'm willing to concede it's an excellent idea.

Prowler is a
reasonable card for what I want it for. In the two color version, the ideal aggressive play involves a turn one DRS, a fetch somewhere, turn two troll or prowler, toss a 'vine, then use the DRS mana to cast a 1cc guy--profit. In this way, the prowler adds some redundancy. It isn't an awful beater either. You'll notice that I am only running two though.

As for the land, I've been happy with 22--I think will hold true with Bob as well.

There were plenty of turns when I went crack fetch, get shock, play 1 mana card... I don't think I'd want to follow that up with an additional 2 life lost against a lot of decks.

Of course that's probably less likely with only two colors.

And prowler is also my least favorite card, but you absolutely need something in play/hand to get cards in the yard and it fits that criteria.

I also cut down to 20 land.

I mean, I wouldn't really consider the 'seize with 3 colors. Most of the time, I only fetch
for a shock in G/B when I really need one.

As for 20 land, I think that's probably easier with the looting.

I experimented with a 4 colour version, featuring Lingering Souls and Tidehallow Sculler. Will try to dig up my notes.

Actually, as they were suggesting the issues with 'seize, I was thinking of sculler. Another zombie wouldn't hurt and it gets me the MD disruption I would like. I'm not sure about the lingering souls. I imagine it would work well with the looting plan, as it gives you another "awesome in the yard" spell.

Would love to see your notes though.

If we're going 4 colors, why not just make the thing a Zombie tribal deck with shenanigans?

You've stil got Bloodghast, Vengevine, and Gravecrawler + Madness dudes if you want them (there are a few zombies), you get Sculler for disruption, Looting for draw, and Cavern to smooth out the mana.

And I'm sure there are probably other GY synergies that I'm not considering... maybe some Unearth stuff?

Thoughts?

So, if I were to splash white, I'd want Cavern for sure. Also: who doesn't love messenger?

As for other zombies, I suppose shambling remains has some application in a R list due to the reasonable unearth cost. Most modern zombies suck a little. I guess you could go with a lord, but that sounds especially bad. Hmm, I feel like I'm missing something.

I think that's a promising direction, but I'm not sure I'm willing to go there just yet. I want to try a bob-G/B list first. The more I'm thinking about it the more I like it, based on the previous performance.

[deck]Creatures: 33
4 Gravecrawler
4 Diregraf Ghoul
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Lotleth Troll
3 Oona's Prowler
4 Dark Confidant
4 Bloodghast
3 Big Game Hunter
4 Vengevine

Spells: 7
4 Faithless Looting
3 Abrupt Decay

Lands: 20
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Arid Mesa
1 Blood Crypt
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Mountain
1 Forest
5 Swamp[/deck]

I think I'll give this a whirl.

I'm also considering Grisly Salvage over Abrupt Decay or Oona's Prowler.

I'd... sigh. I'd feel pretty uncomfortable losing the Prowlers for Salvage. It seems alright here, but I think I'd do -3 Abrupt Decay +2 Grisly Salvage +1 Deathrite Shaman, at least for starters. Very interested to see how a deck without Lilly turns out, let me know.

Yeah; I think I really want Liliana, some hand disruption and Tragic Slip; will have a think and get back. Ideally we need 12+ effects that want to be in the GY (for looting to be either cycle plus scry 2 or straight draw 2) and we're basically there already, so the core concept looks viable.

I love Lili in this list--I would have a very hard time cutting her.

I did consider the salvage, but I sort of feel like part of the reason that looting works is that it is very cheap. With salvage, you'll rarely be able to prime the yard and cast two creatures in the same turn.

Decay serves a very different purpose. I suppose I'm trying to be midrange-y, so I want removal and decay has been relatively strong.

@Z: you know, if we firmly splash white, that brings in path. Of course you never want it turn one, but it's awesome later on. I like slip, but I'd rather have path if it's an option.

I don't really like Path; its the best 'bad' card in the format. With enough recurring threats, tragic slip is basically Swords to Plowshares; I would even rather Terminate/Abrupt Decay/Go for the Throat or whatever to Path ~ giving control or midrange decks an extra land is gross.

Something like this maybe?

[deck]
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Gravecrawler
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Bloodghast
4 Vengevine

4 Liliana of the Veil

2 Abrupt Decay
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Terminate

4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
4 Marsh Flats
4 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs[/deck]

That's a lot of fuel for Lili or Looting to use. Might want to explore hand disruption options as well, although I don't know how prevalent combo will be now; so the removal package might be preferable.

I'm going to disagree on path--most control decks aren't going to throw out much early that needs a path. If you float them a land on turn 4 or 5, it usually isn't a huge deal. By contrast, the land isn't hugely relevant with aggro. Midrange is a bit more questionable. The only real qualm I have with path is hitting early utility creatures (lavamancer, bob, DRS, etc)--they can come down early enough where the path/ramp is a huge disadvantage.

That having been said, terminate is an excellent choice, and I prefer lightning bolt in 90% of situations.

Fair point, I am still in the mindset of playing against Jund for ~40% of my matches, where Path is terrible. It is probably OK elsewhere.

When I tested, I found that you want to play approximately a shit-load of creatures if you want to be able to apply early pressure/defense and still get Vengevine out regularly.

Like 26+

I think if you're going to go with less than that number, then you really want to start putting in some actual Dredge elements.

Of course, I don't have a whole ton of experience with the deck, so...

On the subject of removal and dredging, while I also am no expert with the deck Darkblast gives the deck a lot more reach than it seems at first. Like I said before, I mulliganed aggressively with the deck, and especially when you're at a card disadvantage they can help you a lot: the hypothetical holy grail play of turn 3 Looting dredge back dredge back = 8 cards to the bin cast 2 zombies vengevines smash face came up often enough to make me feel all warm and squishy. The -1/-1 is pretty relevant when it comes to blocks, too, even when your opponent knows you're holding it. I'd seriously consider replacing the Terminates in the above list with them, and maybe even an LB.

When I tested, I found that you want to play approximately a shit-load of creatures if you want to be able to apply early pressure/defense and still get Vengevine out regularly.

Like 26+

I think if you're going to go with less than that number, then you really want to start putting in some actual Dredge elements.

Of course, I don't have a whole ton of experience with the deck, so...

Agreed--activating vine, especially later, requires a pretty creature-dense deck. This is why I like the Bob idea and am keeping hunter for now.

I get where Z is going though, there were several times when I wanted more removal.

On the subject of removal and dredging, while I also am
no expert with the deck Darkblast gives the deck a lot more reach than it seems at first. Like I said before, I mulliganed aggressively with the deck, and especially when you're at a card disadvantage they can help you a lot: the hypothetical holy grail play of turn 3 Looting dredge back dredge back = 8 cards to the bin cast 2 zombies vengevines smash face came up often enough to make me feel all warm and squishy. The -1/-1 is pretty relevant when it comes to blocks, too, even when your opponent knows you're holding it. I'd seriously consider replacing the Terminates in the above list with them, and maybe even an LB.

I think it warrants consideration if someone is running looting and/or salvage. As far as being "heavy dredge" I don't think we'd really be able to do anything degenerate enough to warrant it. But I could be wrong, I haven't tried a dredging list.

Just a note on testing my list with Bob over thoughtseize--I think the deck plays much smoother and in a more consistent fashion. However, in testing against a teachings list, I found that thoughtseize was sorely missed, turning an easier match-up more difficult.

I'm still probably keeping bob though. I have been thinking about sculler though.