Dies to Removal

Originally posted over at the other site. Figured I'd post it here too just in case anyone can't (or doesn't want to) look for it over there.

***

Ok, here comes a fair bit of information regarding my group's Cube Legacy experience. For anyone who thinks they'll be offended by a Cube that includes a whole heap of (basically) custom cards, created on-the-fly with zero respect for the colour pie or power level considerations, turn back now. Some of these abominations will make your eyes water.

For example, consider Dark Ritual. A perfectly respectable Cube card. Puh-lease. After just two weeks of Cube Legacy, our Dark Ritual looked like this:



Like I said, it hurts the mind just to look at some of these cards.

***

Bit of background now (because very little of this will make any sense unless you know what Cube Legacy is.) Supposedly, the idea came from Gregory Marques (of CFB), and his seminal article on the format can be found here. However, as anyone who has ever investigated the format knows, Marques' write-up is full of gaps, and you can't hope to emulate his experience without re-inventing a lot of the material from the ground up. The fact that he seems to ignore emails on the topic doesn't help. Google doesn't have a lot to contribute either, with seemingly only a handful of discussion threads and blogs on the topic in existence.

It's difficult to give a brief summary of the format, but I'll try. Start with a fairly standard Cube (powered, unpowered - it doesn't matter) and a group of drafters who can commit to attending several Cube sessions in a row. Draft the Cube, build decks, and start playing games. As the games progress, players add small stickers (sometimes called "scars") to cards in their decks, which grant certain abilities. Now comes the kicker - those stickers remain attached to the cards for the remainder of the Cube Legacy experience. So, for example, if someone adds a "Trample" sticker to Tarmogoyf, there's a good chance an opponent will draft it next session and use it to beat their face in.

There are a range of other possible rules modifications that can be added to the Cube Legacy experience (which I'll get to later), but it's generally accepted that the stickers are the backbone of the format, and the first thing that prospective Cube Legacy managers should get sorted out.

Here's an uncut sheet of mine:



The combination of coloured paper and bright red text was chosen to make them really stand out when attached to a card. Note also that they are removable stickers - the sticky stuff on the back is semi-permanent, so they can be peeled off without tearing or leaving any residue.

***

On to my own group's experience.

I put a fair bit of effort into presentation. Although this certainly isn't necessary, I figured the amount of time I spent developing and fine-tuning the concepts warranted dropping a few bucks to end up with a finished product that looked the part. I'll leave it up to you guys to decide if I was successful.

Remember, I shared only vague details of all this development process with my group. When they arrived to the first session, all the Cube Legacy materials were packaged up in
a nice document box:



with the unmodified Cube laid out on the table alongside it.

Inside the box, on top of all the other materials, was this:



with a Rules document:



inside, to bring everyone up to speed on the finer details of the format. Note that the rules presented at the start of the Cube Legacy experiment were far from comprehensive - various additional rules (and modifications to existing rules) were contained inside the sealed achievement envelopes, only to be revealed when the opening conditions were met. I certainly couldn't include any discussion of those on the initial rules document - it would ruin the surprise.

Speaking of sealed envelopes, here's one:



This was the only envelope that was hard-wired to open at a particular time (in this case, before or during week 2.) All the others had opening conditions that could occur at any time. The complete list of these conditions was:

- "Open this envelope when a player controls an artifact, a creature, an enchantment, and a land that each have at least one sticker attached to them."
- "Open this envelope when both players in a game control at least three permanents with stickers attached to them."
- "Open this envelope when any player controls 13 or more lands, or controls a creature with power 13 or greater."
- "Open this envelope when a player "overkills" their opponent by at least 10 damage (eg. deals 10 more damage than needed to kill them.)"
- "Open this envelope the third time a player is killed by a card with at least two stickers attached to it."

Only four of these envelopes were in effect at any time; two of the original four were opened during the first session, so I made up another two to replace them before the second session. Obviously any unopened envelopes carried over from week to week. The final two conditions listed above are admittedly a bit subjective, but I figured we'd thrash out any disputes amongst us as a group. As it turned out, both were opened without any disagreement whatsoever.


The remainder of the starting materials included a little yellow "starting envelope" for each player (again, completely unnecessary but they looked cool):



which in turn contained a sheet of stickers (we came to call these "starting stickers"):



and as of session two, a couple of the starting envelopes contained these:



(these were the match-win reward stickers, used to modify the mana costs of cards.)


There was also a score sheet:



(which, in hindsight, telegraphed the contents of one of the sealed envelopes via the last sentence of text at the bottom. More about that later.)


Finally, there was a pile of "Modifier" effects (mock-ups designed to resemble MTG cards.) These came in four varieties:

Draft Modifiers, which altered the rules of the draft:





Deckbuilding Modifiers, which changed some aspect of deck construction:



Card Modifiers, which affected one or more individual cards (either during, or after, the draft), and:



Game Modifiers, which dramatically messed with the rules of the first game their controller played during the session.



(In retrospect, I really dislike the Game Modifiers. They were intended to greatly increase the user's chances of winning their first game, and hence match, thereby giving them a better shot at an early match win reward. In practice, only Gerrard left a lasting legacy behind (ie. the sticker); the others were completely forgotten after the first game of the day, which I felt made them much less interesting than the other Modifier effects.)


Each player was dealt one of these Modifier cards at random, and could cash it in for it's effect at the appropriate time.


***


In Gregory Marques' article, he suggests that stickers be added to cards at the rate of one per match, at "morph" speed. I never liked this particular system, for two reasons: 1) I felt the rate of modification would be far too slow, and 2) I was worried that as soon as a player decided to place their sticker, the opponent would probably just add a sticker of their own to counteract it.

Therefore, I came up with my own rules regarding sticker placement. In our Cube Legacy experience, each player was allowed to add one sticker to any card in their deck before the start of each game. The card being modified and the sticker being used were both supposed to be kept secret - but in reality, players would usually crow about their latest insane modification to the entire group as soon as they'd finished.

This system of sticker placement had a strange, unintended effect on gameplay - often the winner of game 1 would throw game 2, just so more stickers could be added to the Cube. I made no effort to police this, because 1) I hadn't made any mention of it in the rules, and 2) I thought it was hilarious, and engaged in the practice myself a few times.

Here's a selection of our modified cards after week 2:



(Note the Stormfront Pegasus's altered mana cost: )





(Yes, the Dark Confidant costs )



(...and the Keldon Marauders costs )



(The duplicate Wheel came into existence after I used the "Urza" draft modifier. I was playing Boros aggro that day and figured I could use the card draw.)



(The Eternal Witness - which really is eternal now - was the result of someone using the "Squee" modifier effect.)








Below is a complete list of the cards we modified:

- After week 1:

Double-stickered:
Carrion Feeder -> Haste, Trample
Tombstalker -> First strike,
Flash
Reanimate -> Flash, Gain 2 life
Keldon Marauders -> Haste, Shadow
Regrowth -> Flashback, Scry 2
Wurmcoil Engine -> Haste, Trample
Rakdos Cackler -> First strike, +1/+1 counter
Spiritmonger -> Double strike, Trample

Single-stickered:
Accorder Paladin -> First strike
Baneslayer Angel -> Haste
Isamaru, Hound of Konda -> +1/+1 counter
Counterspell -> Flashback
Ponder -> Draw a card
Braids, Cabal Minion -> Flying
Skinrender -> Flash
Dark Ritual -> Flashback
Smallpox -> Draw a card
Vampiric Tutor -> Scry 2
Gore-House Chainwalker -> Flying
Hellspark Elemental -> Draw a card
Faithless Looting -> Scry 4
Firebolt -> Scry 2
Lightning Bolt -> Flashback
Staggershock -> Cascade
Wheel of Fortune (the original one, not the duplicate) -> Flash
Basking Rootwalla -> +1/+1 counter
Quirion Dryad -> Flying
Tarmogoyf -> Flying
Thornling -> Flying
Twinblade Slasher -> First strike
nVorapede -> Gain 2 life
Wolfir Avenger -> +1/+1 counter
Yavimaya Elder -> Draw a card
Berserk -> Flashback
Sylvan Library -> Scry 2
Worldly Tutor -> Draw a card
Isochron Scepter -> Flash
Smokestack -> Shroud
Solemn Simulacrum -> Flash
Lotleth Troll -> Haste
Putrefy -> Flashback
Supreme Verdict -> Flashback
Strip Mine -> Draw a card


- After week 2:

(Note that all week 1 modifications carry over as well.)

Mana cost adjustments:
Stormfront Pegasus reduced by 1 (note that it also has double Strike (purchased from the Sticker Store))
Bribery increased by 1 (in an attempt to nerf it after somebody gave it flashback)
Dark Confidant reduced by 1
Nekrataal reduced by 1
Keldon Marauders reduced by 1 (it also has shadow and haste from last week)
Sol Ring reduced by 1 (yes, that means it now
costs zero)

Double-stickered:
Baneslayer Angel - Enters the battlefield tapped (nullifying the haste sticker added to it last week)
Calciderm - haste, trample
Timetwister - scry 2, draw a card
Chain Lightning - scry 2, flashback
Hellspark Elemental - gain 2 life (& draw a card from last week)
Hound of Griselbrand - scry 2, trample
Staggershock - draw a card (& cascade from last week)
Basking Rootwalla - haste (& +1/+1 counter from last week)

Single-stickered:
Balance - flashback
Mother of Runes - can't block
Stormfront Pegasus - double strike
Dungeon Geists - first strike
Inkwell Leviathan - haste
Diabolic Edict - flashback
Grinning Demon - trample
Recurring Nightmare - draw a card
Vampire Nighthawk - first strike
Inferno Titan - haste
Pillage - flashback
Stormblood Berserker - first strike
Call of the Herd -
gain 2 life
Eternal Witness - "At the beginning of your upkeep, you may return this creature from your graveyard to your hand."
Genesis - cycling 2
Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary - haste
Troll Ascetic - first strike
Wall of Blossoms - scry 2
Crucible of Worlds - dredge 3
Mox Diamond - draw a card
Dryad Militant - +1/+1 counter
Undermine - gain 2 life
Wooded Foothills - draw a card

Sticker adjustments:
Fauna Shaman - undying (originally had a persist sticker; free upgrade to undying issued as persist is now banned)

***

As the games progressed, the sealed achievement envelopes began to open.

Inside one was this:



The contents of the small "reward" envelope was kept secret until the end of the "Death Match." When a winner emerged, they opened it to find this:



and created this:




Another envelope (the "Open when a player accumulates 8 game wins" one) contained this rules upgrade:



and the actual Store itself:



(Inside the plastic sleeve, behind the paper, were several sheets of stickers containing all of the listed effects.)


Other envelopes contained upgrades to the Cube itself. For example, the Cube we started with contained no Planeswalkers. 15 of these were sealed inside an envelope, with instructions to add them to the Cube the next time it was drafted.

Similarly, another envelope contained copies of the Power 9.

Another contained instructions to play a 3 vs 3 Emperor game, with the prize being 6 game-win points for each player on the winning team.



Finally, one envelope contained a kind of reverse Sticker Store, called the "Torture Chamber." (No pictures of this one I'm afraid - it's still sealed in it's envelope.) The Torture Chamber let players purchase Emblems that allowed them to either remove or redistribute stickers that had previously been placed on cards. This was my attempt to keep sticker numbers under control, and perhaps prolong the lifespan of the experience (we knew eventually the Cube would get so cluttered up with stickers that we'd have to remove them all and start over again.) Unlike the rules regarding normal sticker placement, the Torture Chamber emblems could be used at "morph" speed.

The emblems' purchase costs and effects were:

[2] Permanently remove one sticker from a card in a public zone.
[3] Permanently remove one sticker from a card in any zone.
[3] Permanently remove all stickers from a card in a public zone.
[4] Permanently remove all stickers from a card in any zone.
[4] Permanently move one sticker from a card in a public zone to another card in a public zone.
[5] Permanently move any number of stickers from a card in any zone to other card/s in any zone.

Once purchased, players retained ownership of the emblems from game to game (and week to week, if necessary) until used. Physical mock-ups were made, similar to the Modifier cards shown previously. However, I have no idea how effective the Torture Chamber concept is, as the envelope containing it was never opened.


***


Sadly, after a couple of weeks of Cube Legacy the group ended up getting burnt out on it. Why did this happen? I suspect a combination of factors.

- We started the project around Christmas time, and as people got busier/started heading back to work, uni, etc, attendance plummeted. Unfortunately, if someone couldn't attend one week, it meant they fell behind on game win points, making it harder for them to keep up with other players who were buying from the Sticker Store. Eventually we stopped getting enough players for a draft to fire.
- Some cards ended up getting double- and triple-stickered very quickly, and just became ridiculously overpowered. Playing with (and against) cards like that is fun for a while, but not forever.
- The "Persist incident": I completely missed the interaction between the Persist ability and the +1/+1 counter sticker. In our very first session, every single Persist creature in the cube was double-stickered with a +1/+1 counter sticker and some other effect. They were completely oppressive, and at the end of week 1 the group voted to replace all persist creatures with other cards. I get the feeling this may have upset some players, particularly those who had drafted multiple persist guys, and this may have affected their motivation to continue.


On the bright side though, I've been talking to the group about jump-starting Cube Legacy again. We'll probably make a few changes to the rules (eg. maybe reduce the stickers-per-card limit from 2 to 1), tone down the power level of the starting stickers, make up some fresh new envelopes, and mix up the existing envelope opening conditions and contents. Perhaps I'll have more info to post in this thread again someday. In the meantime, I hope you've enjoyed reading about our experience. If anyone has any input or would like to discuss anything further, feel free to drop me a PM. Thanks for reading this far.

I am doing this.

The group and I have dusted off our "Cube Legacy" materials and started a second series of sessions (complete with new stickers, modifiers, sealed envelopes, rules tweaks, and format-warping events.)

Below is a brief summary of our first session (fairly brief as it's just a copy/paste from our group FB page.)


* * * * * *


["Cube Legacy" Reboot] -- Report -> Week 1

Modifier Effects Used:

- [Player 1] used his "Multani" modifier straight away, allowing everyone to draft cards two at a time for the rest of pack 1.

- [Player 2] followed this up almost immediately with "Ertai", reversing the direction of drafting after the first packs were passed once (essentially forcing everyone to draft 4 cards from pack 1.)

- [Player 3] traded in a nearly-depleted pack with the "Karn" draft modifier, allowing him to make his pick from 15 random unused cards rather than the 3 left in his pack.

- [Player 4] liked two cards from one of his packs, so he used "Mishra" to draft both of them.

- [Player 5] decided Thragtusk wasn't good enough, so he used the "Squee" card modifier to give it Squee's "returns from your graveyard to your hand during your upkeep" ability.

- [Player 6] was also craving an awesome green fatty, and thanks to "Tahngarth" his Primeval Titan gained double strike and haste.


Cube, Format and Rules changes:

- Unsurprisingly, [Player 6]'s Primeval Titan easily achieved the "control 10 lands" opening condition on a sealed envelope, which contained the "Mysterious Allies" upgrade. This effect added 10 control-friendly cards to the Cube permanently - and all 10 are pre-stickered with two unknown stickers (which can only be revealed via their owner skipping a game's normal sticker placement.)

- [Player 5]'s winning streak triggered a second envelope's condition ("open after three matches have been won 2-0"); this envelope contained the Sticker Store, which has had some rules tweaks since last session and has a significantly wider variety of stickers available for purchase.

- Finally, despite the envelope's warning label and [Player 2]'s mumblings about our impending doom, [Player 1] foolishly opened the "Do Not Open This Envelope, Ever" packet, releasing the Infection within. Sticker spaces on cards are now being eagerly devoured by an exponentially self-replicating horde of Infection stickers (which serve no purpose other than using up sticker spaces on cards, effectively pre-emptively nerfing them.)


Individual Card Changes:

The following cards have been upgraded with stickers:

- Double stickered cards (including Infection stickers):

Porcelain Legionnaire -> flying, lifelink
nBalance -> flashback, Infection
Grave Titan -> first strike, Infection
Duress -> draw a card, Infection
Thragtusk -> flash, "At the beginning of your upkeep, return this card from your graveyard to your hand"
Primeval Titan -> double strike, haste
Life from the Loam -> scry 2, gain 2 life
Vindicate -> flash, Infection
Mishra's Factory -> deathtouch, Infection

Elspeth, Knight Errant -> 2x hidden stickers
Gideon Jura -> 2x hidden stickers
Jace Beleren -> 2x hidden stickers
Tamiyo, the Moon Sage -> 2x hidden stickers
Liliana Vess -> 2x hidden stickers
Kokusho, the Evening Star -> 2x hidden stickers
Chandra Nalaar -> 2x hidden stickers
Kumano, Master Yamabushi -> 2x hidden stickers
Garruk Wildspeaker -> 2x hidden stickers
"The Acidic Slime" -> 2x hidden stickers (+ has been modified to Legendary)

- Single Stickered cards:

Reveillark -> flash
Baneslayer Angel -> flash
Isamaru,
Hound of Konda -> first strike
Mistral Charger -> +1/+1 counter
Sower of Temptation -> flash
Inkwell Leviathan -> haste
Forbid -> draw a card
Remand -> flashback
Tinker -> flashback
Bloodgift Demon -> gain 2 life
Hypnotic Specter -> haste
Hymn to Tourach -> scry 2
Consuming Vapors -> gain 2 life
Night's Whisper -> scry 2
Gore-House Chainwalker -> haste
Jackal Pup -> flying
Mogg Fanatic -> deathtouch
Keldon Marauders -> haste
Inferno Titan -> haste
Mizzium Mortars -> flashback
Flames of the Firebrand -> scry 2
Magma Jet -> draw a card
Staggershock -> draw a card
Lightning Bolt -> flashback
Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary -> haste
Genesis -> cycling 2
Fauna Shaman -> haste
Worldly Tutor -> draw a card
Berserk -> flashback
Sundering Titan -> trample
Lotleth Troll -> deathtouch
Kird Ape -> +1/+1 counter
Temple Garden -> gain 2 life

- Single Infection stickers:

Kor
Sanctifiers
Wrath of God
Snapcaster Mage
Venser, Shaper Savant
Braids, Cabal Minion
Vampire Nighthawk
Bonesplitter
Nevinyrral's Disk
Crucible of Worlds


Future Changes:

- The "Mysterious Allies" upgraded Planeswalkers and Legendary creatures will be added to the Cube permanently at the beginning of the next session.

- The "Sticker Store" is in effect. Stickers can be purchased at any time. Remember that the Store's supply of stickers will *not* be replenished, so once a particular type of sticker is out of stock, it will be out of stock permanently.

- The Infection will presumably continue to take over the Cube, consuming all available sticker spaces on cards in its path. However....


Rules Updates:

- ....a vaccine has been developed to help slow the spread of the Infection. From next session onwards, Infection stickers will only replicate ONCE (ie. instead of Infected cards creating two new Infection
stickers, they will now only create one.) The Infection will continue to spread, but thanks to the vaccine its days of reproducing exponentially are over.

- Slight change to the scoring system. From now on the match winners' bonus point will only be awarded when matches are won 2-0. Bonus points accumulated this week (ie. under the old score system) will not be affected.

Can you make PDFs of everything available?

Can you make PDFs of everything available?

Fireshot extension allows this in a web browser: Mozilla and Chrome compatible

this is really fucking cool
seriously

As a gesture to corruption Watch and Checkbox I sent Checkbox the pdf version of the post I just made from CW 's post

Oh boy oh boy

Oh boy oh boy

you get it in your other messages folder?

As a gesture to corruption Watch and Checkbox I sent Checkbox the pdf version of the post I just made from CW 's post

Excuse me, you did what?

Apparently made a pdf of something and then sent it to me. I haven't bothered to look, since you just sent me all the stuff anyways.

Have you had a chance to run a Cube Legacy event yet?

No, unfortunately. Getting that many people together for long enough to run multiple cube drafts isn't easy with full time school and 2x part time jobs

I really want a PDF of this so I can make my own cube and start it.

I really want a PDF of this so I can make my own cube and start it.

You need friends to play cube.

it just takes longer to 8 man by yourself

Ok, so I'm having difficulty getting enough players who are able to commit to several Cube Legacy sessions in a row. We haven't been able to get a draft to fire for several months.

I need ideas for a rules overhaul that will 1) condense the whole thing down into a single-session event, but 2) maintain as many features of the original as possible (eg. sticker placement, sealed achievement envelopes, draft modifier cards, the Sticker Store, etc.)

I'm thinking there probably needs to be a re-draft in there somewhere -- as in, we draft the Cube, build 1v1 decks, play some rounds, then dismantle the decks and re-draft the Cube (possibly for a final multiplayer game...?) I feel this is important as it's the only way I can think of to guarantee that people will get to see - and use - some of the zany modified cards (and possibly get wrecked by their own creations.) Obviously the rate of sticker placement would need to be
ramped up as well (to allow several weeks' worth of sticker placements in a single session) - the Sticker Store was very popular with the guys so perhaps it could play a bigger role by severely decreasing the cost of purchasing stickers?

I was also thinking about the possibility of having "land mine" stickers -- that is, a certain number of randomly-selected cards in the Cube (I dunno, say roughly 25%?) would have a sticker pre-placed face down in their sleeve which would automatically, non-optionally "trigger" the first time that card was played. Unlike the stickers I've used so far, which have been vastly skewed towards having positive effects, this subset of "land mine" stickers would have a 50:50 split of positive and negative effects (eg. ETB tapped; can't block; -1/-1 counter; lose [?] life; sacrifice a creature; sacrifice a land; discard a card; vanishing [?]; echo; etc etc etc.) All of a sudden, there's a whole extra level of risk analysis involved in drafting:
do I take that land mined [Card X] and pray that it doesn't have a hidden drawback, or do I take the non-mined, less-awesome, but safer [Card Y] instead?

Just brainstorming here. Throw me some ideas guys.

Would the Mines be random or would you hand-tag all of them to make sure that the effects of the mine would be valid on the card type? (For instance, that a Sorcery wouldn't have a -1/-1 counter on it?) Random placement seems better, as you'd be able to feed into the player's gambler instinct, making them think "maybe it won't be a negative at all!"

Do you play at an LGS or around the kitchen table? Hobby Shops, if one's around you, eat this kind of unique clutch game up, and hosting it in the back room would likely increase the odds you'd be able to drag in some fresh blood. Hell, there's a likelihood you'd be able to have some sort of prize payout for the winner(s), if not gratis from the store then at least try to talk them into giving it to you at cost.

It'd also be interesting to see what would happen in a different format, I'm thinking 2-Headed Giant with special stickers designed to be used
only in that format (for example, a sticker that gives a benefit only to creatures your teammate is attacking with, which would widely skew the benefit of the sticker depending on what archetype your ally is trying to play). Again, this move would be designed to draw in new players, as dealing with a new format is always easier if someone else is doing it with you.

Thanks for the reply Pendy.

Would the Mines be random or would you hand-tag all of them to make sure that the effects of the mine would be valid on the card type? (For instance, that a Sorcery wouldn't have a -1/-1 counter on it?) Random placement seems better, as you'd be able to feed into the player's gambler instinct, making them think "maybe it won't be a negative at all!"

I was thinking I'd probably design the 90 mines in three equal categories - "creatures only", "noncreatures only", and "both." When placing them, I'd separate the Cube into creature and noncreature sections, grab 30 random creatures, 30 random noncreatures, and an extra 15 of each (for the "both" category) and add face-down mines at random. So as the Cube manager I would know ahead of time which cards had mines attached (not a big deal because this would be public knowledge as soon as the draft began) and what mine effects were in circulation (again, not a big deal because they'd be the same sort of simple effects I'd used before - draw a card, +1/+1 counter, scry 2, etc), but not which mines were on which cards.

It'd also be interesting to see what would happen in a different format, I'm thinking 2-Headed Giant with special stickers designed to be used only in that format (for example, a sticker that gives a benefit only to creatures your teammate is attacking with, which would widely skew the benefit of the sticker depending on what archetype your ally is trying to play). Again, this move would be designed to draw in new players, as dealing with a new format is always easier if someone else is doing it with you.

I actually love the idea of alternative formats in Cube Legacy as it opens up heaps of design space for new sticker effects. 2HG is something I probably should have explored with a sealed achievement envelope in the original Cube Legacy concept. An envelope that instructed you to pair up and play the next round as 2HG (and included a bunch of 2HG-specific stickers) would have been awesome. If my condensed version of Cube Legacy is going to include a re-draft followed by a multiplayer finale, perhaps the multiplayer game could be 2HG - it would probably work better than an 8-player free-for-all.

The LGS here predominately caters to tabletop gaming and actively discourages MTG players from playing at the store as it "take up too much space" (in fact, they only carry sealed product and run occasional drafts because it generates money with virtually no effort.)

Your lgs sucks balls and you should stop supporting them for that reason.

Have you considered trying to coordinate something via a facebook group (or whatever preferred form of social media you prefer)?