Dies to Removal

( N_S )' suspension
So Scumbag got suspended for posting an IM from kpaca (who was suspended) looking like this: "Harkius, the staff-sponsored troll". If this was hotly contested by the gutter, it was no less controversial in the Mod Lounge. It took place across
multiple threads, and as usual, we couldn't agree. I personally thought it was a really innocuous post and that while it technically broke the rule, the penalty should match the crime. Many agreed with this PoV, or thought it didn't break the rule at all, while others argued that the rules said X, and we shouldn't exercise favoritism just because this is a loud Gutter member. The vote was pretty close to tied, but I argued that in the case of a staff that doesn't make up its mind, the ruling should favor the user, who is the one to face a tangible penalty after all. This only sparked more discussion, and Scumbag served his suspension (though only one week, despite it being his second suspension). Only a couple of weeks later did we finally reduce the suspension to an infraction, but I don't know if anyone got to know that, and obviously the damage was done already.

Originally posted by Scumbag on MTGS

Originally posted by Scumbag on MTGS

Originally posted by Galspanic on MTGS

( N_S )' ban
Fast forward a week or so, and we have a situation where, from our point of view, Scumbag was trolling CI pretty relentlessly, and was posting in the Gutter to boast about his trolling and encouraged others to do the same. This was a pretty big problem in our eyes, and was making the Gutter the exact thing
it shouldn't be (a troll central). Rather than penalizing the entire Gutter for this kind of troublemaking, we were talking about what to do with Scumbag. Banning was indeed brought up as a possibility in the Global Lounge, but it was abandoned rather quickly. After discussion between the admins, we decided to just infract the posts in question.

[...] and because of all the trouble Scumbag had caused recently, we decided to go with the ban. There was maybe one staff member who disagreed, I think.

Originally posted by Scumbag on MTGS

Originally posted by Scumbag on MTGS

Originally posted by Scumbag on MTGS

Originally posted by Scumbag on MTGS

Originally posted by Scumbag on MTGS

Banning was indeed brought up as a possibility in the Global Lounge, but it was abandoned rather quickly. After discussion between the admins, we decided to just infract the
posts in question.

Scumbag, however, had somehow heard that we were discussing whether or not to ban him only that he was either told, or interpreted it as us scheming our way into getting him banned. As I understand it (I could be wrong - hey, that is basically the point of this thread, I want to know this stuff), Scumbag decided to post the Curse information he'd been withholding because he thought he was about to get banned anyway. From our perspective, Scumbag was posting this as a retaliation to the two infractions I had just given him. This was a friggin big deal for the site (much bigger than the closure of a random club house, or honestly anything else that had happened to the site since January 2005), and probably the most significant leak ever, and because it was done in retaliatory fashion (again, the way we saw it), and because of all the trouble Scumbag had caused recently, we decided to go with the ban.
There was maybe one staff member who disagreed, I think.

****: hasn't changed much since...
GutterNS: seems far fetched, even by the standards of current staff
GutterNS: also, why you playing knight in shinning armor?
****: don't get me wrong, your ci rants border on the annoying, but its still a dick move to ban you essentially for disagreeing with staff policies
****: i don't condone it
****: but this is what we are at. you're a goner
GutterNS: well this first retroactive infraction gives some credence to your "theory", but what evidence do I have this is not coincidence?
****: here's the thing
****: the fact you decided to stop posting in the public sections of salvation foiled the initial plan
****: and they had to go for a backup
GutterNS: which is?
****: what do you mean?
GutterNS: the plan
****: just like with kijin and kpaca: having very strict standards and giving you infractions once there is an opening, even a rabbit
hole one.
****: however, since you gave up on posting about the staff in CI
****: like you posted in the gutter after you got angry after Nai
****: they are reviewing your most recent posts in order to give you the necessary 3 infraction points
****: and then cue to ban
GutterNS: ....
****: btw, its not going to stop at you. kpaca and kijin are next.
GutterNS: oh come the fuck on, you are trolling aain, no way they'd do that much, it would be too obvious
GutterNS: not to mention really sordid
****: do you really think all these things are a coincidence?
GutterNS: you expect me to believe this?
****: your suspension for reposting a joke, kijin and kpaca being put on a year probation for voting on a poll and thanking a post?
****: just you wait and see
****: the higher ups want to cut the dead wood at salvation
****: so that Curse has a nice and clean site once they assume operations
****: with no loose ends
****: i suspect people want to show they made a nice cleaning up tor the new owners
n****: therefore every last one of you guys will be history by the end of the summer
****: don't tell me I didn't warned you afterwards

Originally posted by Sene on MTGS

Originally posted by Nai on MTGS

The punishment was actually spelled out AFTER N_S was banned.

The ban wasn't specifically for the leak of the information, but that leak was involved.

Just prior to his leak of the information, N_S was complaining about how he had gotten two infractions and how we were supposedly going to retroactively find something else to hit him with. Just after commenting about how he was trolling to make a point, he started revealing this information, including the incorrect bit that this
would bring 'big changes to the Rumor Mill' and that everyone could 'only guess if unauthorized spoilers would still be allowed'. N_S also fully expected to be banned.

After a discussion on this, we decided that he was actually outright attempting to get himself banned by spreading information he knew could be harmful.

It wasn't that he was spreading the information, but which information he was choosing to spread and how he was choosing to spread it.

I've just learned something from all this Nai bullshit: The reason why I was banned from MTGS was because I was expecting to be banned.

Originally posted by Nai on MTGS

Originally posted by ExpiredRascals on MTGS

THAT was the "leak&
quot; that got you banned Kpaca?

Ugh.

Yep. Dead serious.

http://www.curse.com

That was my leak.

When you are on probation any suspension-worthy offense leads to a site ban.
So, the gravity of what he did might have been Maddingesque, but the probation was the issue he seems to not be telling you about.

Whats funny is i was on probation for accidentally clicking vote in poll instead of view votes while gimmick browsing. The staff didnt notice this, i told them myself because i realized
that i accidentally was evading suspension. Self imposed tattling on myself

Yeah snitched about something i didnt do on purpose to boot. This is like if a large gust of wind blew me into the street so i jaywalked and then called the police

To be fair, the kpaca banning was the gutter equivalent of the shot heard 'round the world, hence why it was my first nom

I havnt had
time to be at a real comp to type up the type of appeal thats necessary for these twats, but i had an aim convo with nai laying all this out and his response was "well the admins agree with you but the lower mods vote yes to you being banned so your sol sorry"

Originally posted by kpaca on MTGS

If you look at the timestamps Sene, i reposted that material before you pmd me or i read that pm. This is ****ing bull

Originally posted by Sene on MTGS

Here are the time stamps on the PMs I sent. The one I received from you was sent 04:28 PM.


Here are the time stamps on the posts:


Anyway, ignoring that:
1. Why did you post this, when after N_S' ban it was very clear that it was hush-hush and a serious leak?
2. Why did you not delete the posts after you read my PM?
3. Why did you re-post your post after
correctly guessing that an administrator had deleted it? What made you think that was okay?

Originally posted by kpaca on MTGS

Because im not sure of this info. Its stuff that is being throw at me that like you said isnt the complete story. But if the site is being sold and we will be terminated, Id just like to be told. We could make a plan to move or move to clans or something.

Well I figured you would just redelete them or otherwise respond to them which was my hope.

Because i hadnt been informed anything and dont appreciate a post of mine in a discussion deleted since i was trying to raise a point. Like i said i read that pm after reposting. It was during my morning toilet trip fyi.

Originally posted by Sene on MTGS

Well, I'll make a thread in the mod lounge for discussion about this ban. It's possible that we'll ask you a few questions during the review, so check in regularly.

And I want to say: when I sent you that PM, it was because I was
thoroughly disappointed and didn't want what happened to happen. Seeing you post what you did made me frustrated because I had expected more of you. If you feared that we were about to close the Gutter due to Curse, why didn't you just ask the admins instead of self-destructing in pegs? We would never have ended up in this situation if you hadn't jumped to conclusions.

Originally posted by kpaca on MTGS

Honestly? I dont trust you guys in private and was looking for honest public dialouge.

Originally posted by kpaca on MTGS

Also i have over 11000 posts can keep my avatar ala tfe, kcw, butteblues, sakura, etc? This has been like a thing for more prominent members. I was gonna request this for Scumbag once everything settled down, but it never seemed to.

Originally posted by kpaca on MTGS

Can i*
(cant edit posts)

Originally posted by ExpiredRascals on MTGS

I don't know what I can say here. If you don't trust us,
you don't trust us, but I don't see why that would change in a public verses private setting.

I can assure you that we've been nothing but honest with you. Make of that for what you will.

I think this is a fair request. I've implemented an admin override on your account to retain your avatar and will consider doing the same for ( N_S ).

Originally posted by kpaca on MTGS

People saying things in public keeps them honest. Theres a larger constituency to appease.

Thank you for that.

Originally posted by kpaca on MTGS

So am I to assume my appeal is still processing?

Originally posted by ExpiredRascals on MTGS

I don't think you've raised valid grounds yet.

Looking at your posts here and the deleted ones in pegs it looks like you were knowingly acting against the request by Nai and one by Sene. I mean, you realized that an admin deleted your post and rather than pause and find out what was up, you pressed forward
with what was clearly demonstrated as not OK.

I get that you were pissed, and I can understand why: you were fed poor info that ran against all that we had been working for. But letting your rage dictate your actions isn't a viable defense. The current trend in the mod lounge is that the suspension was justified along with the bump to ban per the terms of your probation. The bump feels cut and dry to me, but if you have a rational reason as to why the suspension is unwarranted, we'd like to hear you out.

So, the gist is: your current line of arguing isn't going to be successful. If you'd like to make one regarding where your actions fall under the rules, that is still open to you.

Originally posted by kpaca on MTGS

What?

I didnt disobey any mod requests so i dont understand youre argument. Iguess my argument is indeed that i didnt do anything outside of any rules. If anything i should have been infracted this is overly severe.

[
quote1=ExpiredRascals;9133085]I apologize for the delay.

kpaca, could you elaborate on why you believe your actions don't fall outside the rules? The crux of the case for your banning was that they did, so stating why exactly you think this isn't the case would go a long way.[/quote1]

Hello friends! You may want to screengrab or save the HTML of this thread!
Earlier today, kpaca was banned for posting "off-limits" material. The off limits material is information you can find with a google search: that MTGSalvation
is being purchased by Curse Corporation for purchase (link I found on google: http://forums.starcitygames.com/showthr ... orporation , confirmed by Nai in the Gutter just before (N_S) was banned).

The question this raises is, aside from why were these people banned for leaking spoiler information as this site was established to do, why your staff have been lying to you all this time? And what does it have to do with the direction (downward) this site has been in for some time?

Clearly this has been on the table since He Who Must Not Be Named was asked to step down, as there was some controversy raised when Azrael mentioned the site buyout in discussions there, but no one really questioned that at the time. But now two of my friends are banned because they mentioned MTGSalvation is being bought by Curse Corporation to secure ties
with WotC and to have back-end management after Hannes almost eternal absence, and all it cost was essentially gutting the site through a new "beautification" process we've all been making threads in here for months about.

For reference, here are the quotes from your administrator Nai about the sale we're not supposed to be talking about here but can plainly talk about elsewhere if you know where to dig after being sent in to PR the situation, only to ban Scumbag as a result:

Originally posted by Nai on MTGS

Okay guys, I didn't want to have to step into this thread at any point and violate your privacy. But this one's rather important.

I'm not sure how this information got out, as we didn't want to release it until we had information. This sale is very much up in the air and we're not 100% sure anything is going through. As such, we need this information to stay secret until we actually know something. Telling people that this site is going to be
bought out when we don't know the details could cause a lot of issues and start people asking questions we don't know the answer to.

Whoever heard of this first needs to let us know who actually gave you this information. We need to make sure that no one's posting it until we actually have confirmation that this is going to happen.

Because there's been so many leaks from so many levels recently, the admins need to make it clear that discussing the potential sale is verboten until we actually have full information. I don't like having to put it this way, but talking about it will be an infractable offense until we can actually make an official announcement.

MTGNews is still very fresh in the mind of many people on MTGS. We want to be able to specifically say what is and isn't going to happen if '[redacted] is purchased when we make the official announcement. Please work with us, guys. This could be awesome for us, but we need to make sure it's happening before we start
discussing it.

Originally posted by Nai on MTGS

All I can really say is that there's an offer, discussions are happening, but nothing's set in stone by a long ways. If it goes through, '[redacted] could get a WHOLE lot better.

I've removed the previous posts that give the detailed information, since nothing's confirmed yet. Keep it under your hat, guys. When we get confirmation, you'll probably be the first to know.

Originally posted by Nai on MTGS

Like what? I assume that Scumbag posted that someone wanted to buy the site(and who). So what? Do the Users not get to know that Info? Why is it considered State Secrets?

Because one of the first responses to the information was 'Oh god they're gonna close the gutter' and 'what's this going to do to the rumor mill'. There was already speculation and worry, and nothing's happened yet.

This is
secret because, as I've said, nothing's confirmed yet. The deal isn't going through yet. We were going to make an announcement when we actually had confirmation, or at least a promisory note or something. But we're not even that far yet.

Having this information leaked early could be disastrous to the deal.

Originally posted by Nai on MTGS

Alright comment: He couldn't have leaked it, because he didn't have access to the lounge. Someone leaked it TO him. He's not bound by no "code" to keep it a secret if he learns it. Oh but he should have known he'd get banned over that... or maybe he was expecting getting banned anyway? IDK.

T_T

He was expecting it, actually. He posted as much.

Originally posted by Nai on MTGS

How can I tell you a secret is a secret without telling you the secret?

You're not making any sense at all mate.

[quote1=Nai;8816825:
23vzx7js]Hrm. Let's roleplay this out for a second.

"Hey, guys. The site may be bought soon!"

"Oh? When?"

"We... Don't know."

"Okay, what's going to happen to the site?"

"We don't know."

"Will anything change?"

"We don't know."

Yup. Seems productive.[/quote1]

Originally posted by Nai on MTGS

The point?

That the information is not relevant to the public at all. Because there is no information. At best we have 'the site may be purchased soon', and that's about it. At best, nothing happens. But people like to speculate. And the problem is that speculation tends to cause issues in mass groups.

Originally posted by Nai on MTGS

Let me try to rephrase this.

We don't know if the site is changing ownership. We don't know if it's actually going to happen. We don't know what will change if it will. We don't know ANYTHING right now.

What,
exactly, do you think is relevant to the public?

"Guys, sometime between now and the sun blowing up MTGSalvation may change hands. Something may change if that happens. Stay tuned."

I don't make Miss Cleo predictions. >.>

Originally posted by Nai on MTGS

So you're okay with a bunch of I need to take a long, hard look at what I'm doing with my time based on NOTHING?

Originally posted by Nai on MTGS

Dismiss it as a joke, trolling, or something like that.
Pretend that there is no 'sale discussions' or anything like that going on; to the public at the very least.

That, actually, should be the way to handle stuff like that, not hammering everything with the gigantic Banhammer, like what happened to N_S.
Because that`s very suggestive, and, by now, probably everyone with IQ > 0 will know that there`s something going on, provided s/he didn`t miss the course of
events.

So, wait.

You want us to LIE to our userbase?

And what, exactly, do you think is going to be the response when we come back a week or two later and go 'Wait, no, we were wrong, it's happening.'

this one is ironic given that they've been lying about the bans, the new site direction, and the sale this entire time, particularly given our history as a site and it's whole "post illegal spoilers that harm other people's IPs [but not our own]"

Originally posted by Nai on MTGS

When the alternative is Banning and refusing to allow Former Mod's back?

Yes. I am fine with a few hundred irreverent Chicken Littles running around. It's info that people deserve to know. Period.

We aren't okay with a few hundred irreverent Chicken Littles running around.

Originally posted by Nai on MTGS

Drama's easier to handle if you actually
have answers to the questions.

hope you guys have answers to my questions!

Originally posted by Nai on MTGS

Well, no. We said that N_S made a malicious action towards the site. We also said the same thing about Artie. Two completely different situations. And that's it.

Originally posted by Nai on MTGS

Okay. Here is the Crux of what I am saying.

The Chicken Littles will be just as freaked out when they are told the Site is being Sold to Person X as when they are Told the Site is being Sold to Someone maybe.

Punishing people for talking about info that Users should know because of possible consequences that may or may not happen due to a event that may or may not happen makes little sense to me.

Thanks for being willing to Hash this out with me Nai.

And here's what I'm saying.

It's not just 'Chicken Little' that we're worried about. The Rumor Mill is a
big deal on this site. What if we have to get rid of it? What if we have to get rid of Commander subforums? Perhaps we have to get rid of the Gutter? What if?

These types of questions can cause a LOT of I need to take a long, hard look at what I'm doing with my time. It's easier to handle them if we actually can say 'Nothing will happen to the Gutter, the Commander subforums are just fine, and we'll get some official spoilers before anyone else', or something similar.

If we CANNOT answer these questions? Speculation starts. Word of mouth can cause issues. IF the Site starts having issues, the buyer may back out. So not only do we have I need to take a long, hard look at what I'm doing with my time, but we also have no buyer. So the I need to take a long, hard look at what I'm doing with my time was all for nothing.

We're waiting on the full answers. We intend to say EVERYTHING when we have ALL the information.

Originally posted by Nai on MTGS

[quote=&
quot;MandersHex"]Nor should you be.

Don't misunderstand: I'm still upset with the staff. But I think you reacted appropriately this time.

And, I know it was hard for you, Nai, to support Scumbag being banned, as it's hard for me to accept it as the right thing to do. But it was.

Isn`t that a lie as well, then? (At least partly?)

Originally posted by Nai on MTGS

i voted on something in the pegging chamber and then didn't vote when it was raised that i shouldn't have voted.

i
have not tried to appeal because i have already done this dance once.

Sene, I don't know how much more information I can give out without violating me and my girlfriends
privacy. Stop telling me that the Belza account is a Madding gimmick. I am not a retard who would evade a suspension with an account that is known to be affiliated with me. The XXXXXXXXXXX email account is a joint email account for different social networking sites that I ultimately yielded to my girlfriend years ago when I got tired of its roleplaying connontations and switched to two other primary emails which I can tell Boubs in private. Look up the XXXXXXXXXXX email account on real life websites like Amazon, Pinterest, etc. The accounts on such actual websites with that email address all are registered to Heather XXXXX. If you look at any newer accounts on Magic: the Gathering websites and stores (this one, SCG, twitchtv, other MTG stores) you will not find any Madding or Kaitscralt accounts registered to that email address in years because IT IS NOT MINE ANY MORE.

Stop trying to be internet detectives. It is creepy and insulting. I own a house with my girlfriend of
almost eight years and we share in interests and hobbies. She uses things of mine because I am creative and come up with names she likes. That is her account, that is her email address, that was her post because she was mad that I was mad, but she quickly lost interest in lolforum drama while I continued to be a whiny little bitch about it around the house.

To reiterate : there is ample proof that email address is used daily on public sites by my girlfriend Heather, and proof that the MTG entity named Madding/Kaitscralt moved to different email addresses for forums/sites years ago. Can I make this any clearer, Sene?

I didn't appeal it because I didn't want to. But Boubs offered his services to us and I accepted. So you can be sure all the above info will be presented to him in a PM if needed including the different accounts and email addresses across different websites that easily dismiss this absurd gimmick charge as a case of flash banning.

Like I am going to circumvent my suspension with a 5 year old account that used to bump my trade thread for me. Give me a little more credit than that Salvation.

It's also sort of poetic that it happened now because I was once banned for being thought to have rigged the forum awards with Belza, only to be cleared by administration and unbanned before that award season ended.

"I deleted the nominations you posted since, given the history with the people you named, I can't see that being anything but trolling.

-Galspanic"

for the record, i nominated woap for nicest member and arcad for best mod...i guess he doesn't think they are good people

it is now the staff that is the
gutter.
it has come full circle.

he wanted it to stop, and didnt want to suspend 4 people

and then he went and suspended 4 people...