Dies to Removal

Something from the brewing kitchen (thanks to MDU and LaZerBurn for help and feedback - Note we are all MTGO players, so this is all based on theorycrafting for until July 27 ).

[deck]Thopter Burn[/deck]

Basic deck idea
Similar to Burn deck of last season. Against Midrange and Control Decks, our goal is to burn them out, using Thopter tokens and Swiftspear flexibly for attack and defense depending on board state. Against other Aggro decks we play control.
While the creatures are good on their own and resilient to removal, the deck has quite some synergies (most notably Hangarback Walker and Shrapnel Blast, but also the haste that Thopter Engineer gives to the tokens of P&K Nalaar (aka Thopter Gang Commander) and the sac outlet of the Commander with Darksteel Citadel.

Some deck variants / cards we considered:
1) Splash Color
Both U and G come to mind. We initially wanted U for Ensoul Artifact, but in the end felt the deck doesn't quite run enough artifacts to reliably power both this and Shrapnel Blast. The deck could also possibly run Treasure Cruise and/or Clash of Wills. G would be to splash for Atarka's Command (doing a fine Skullcrack impression, while inflicting some extra damage in a best case scenario), which might or might not be worth it.

2) Possible weak cards
Monastery Swiftspear - might be a bit underpowered and not play well with the "defend the ground - attack through the air" theme of the deck.
Magma Jet - is a card that I really like, while MDU and LaZer thought it was weak.

3) Additional cards we consider
Ghirapur Gearcrafter - basically Thopter Engineer 5+6
Eidolon of the Great Revel or Satyr Firedancer - these could be Meta Choices
Abbot of the Keral Keep - not at its strongest in this deck, but might still be just a very red good card

Thoughts and Feedback welcome!

Here is my list (while I wait for July 27th):

[deck=MDU's Red Thopter]Lands 23
20 Mountain
3 Darksteel Citadel

Creatures 17
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Hangarback Walker
4 Thopter Engineer
3 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
2 Ghirapur Gearcrafter

Burn 20
4 Stoke the Flames
4 Exquisite Firecraft
4 Shrapnel Blast
4 Lightning Strike
4 Wild Slash

Sideboard 15
4 Roast
4 Searing Blood
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2 Arc Lightning
1 Twin Bolt[/deck]

Notes:
I really like the idea of playing with evasive Thopters while pointing burn towards the dome.
Hangarback Walker really is just a 1/1 or 2/2 which replaces itself - this is fine since it works with the stall and burn game plan.
4x5=20.

Oh man how I miss Boros Burn...I really hope Exquisite Firecraft lets us run a good burn deck.

The thopter idea is pretty interesting as Shrapnel Blast is pretty strong.

Ive been testing various lists myself lately, mostly this list that someone got 48th with. Must be someone here or friend of Purp.
48th at SCG CHi
[deck]
Creatures (16)

4 Abbot of Keral Keep
2 Lightning Berserker
4 Monastery Swiftspear
3 Eidolon of the Great Revel
1 Satyr Firedancer
2 Zurgo Bellstriker
Planeswalkers (2)

2 Chandra, Pyromaster
Lands (22)

22 Mountain
Spells (20)

4 Lightning Strike
2 Magma Jet
2 Searing Blood
4 Stoke the Flames
4 Wild Slash
4 Exquisite Firecraft
Sideboard

3 Outpost Siege
2 Satyr Firedancer
1 Searing Blood
2 Smash to Smithereens
3 Anger of the Gods
4 Roast
[/deck]


I also found these decks from the top32 that caught my eye.



[deck]
Creatures (15)

4 Goblin Rabblemaster
3 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Thunderbreak Regent
4 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
Planeswalkers (2)

2 Chandra, Pyromaster
Lands (26)

20 Mountain
2 Foundry of the Consuls
4 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
Spells (17)

4 Lightning Strike
4 Stoke the Flames
4 Dragon Fodder
2 Hordeling Outburst
3 Roast
Sideboard

3 Ashcloud Phoenix
4 Rending Volley
4 Wild Slash
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Harness by Force
1 Roast
[/deck]


[deck]
Creatures (10)

2 Abbot of Keral Keep
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Monastery Swiftspear
Lands (22)

22 Mountain
Spells (28)

4 Outpost Siege
4 Lightning Strike
4 Stoke the Flames
4 Wild Slash
4 Dragon Fodder
4 Exquisite Firecraft
4 Hordeling Outburst
Sideboard

2 Ashcloud Phoenix
4 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Arc Lightning
4 Roast
1 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
[/deck]


[deck]
Creatures (19)

4 Hangarback Walker
4 Knight of the White Orchid
3 Seeker of the Way
2 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
2 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
Planeswalkers (2)

2 Chandra, Pyromaster
Lands (24)

4 Mountain
7 Plains
4 Battlefield Forge
4 Evolving Wilds
4 Temple of Triumph
1 Wind-Scarred Crag
Spells (15)

4 Chained to the Rocks
3 Dictate of Heliod
2 Outpost Siege
2 Secure the Wastes
1 Valorous Stance
2 Wild Slash
1 Roast
Sideboard

1 Ashcloud Phoenix
3 Flamewake Phoenix
1 Mastery of the Unseen
1 Fate Forgotten
2 Surge of Righteousness
2 Valorous Stance
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Crater's Claws
2 End Hostilities
1 Roast
[/deck]

Oh man how I miss Boros Burn...I really hope Exquisite Firecraft lets us run a good burn deck.

Burn is always at its strongest just before rotations, I have no doubt it will strong this time around as well (though maybe not at that YP and CP level).

My two burn decks are:

[deck=MDU's Rg Burn]Lands 20
10 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Mana Confluence
1 Temple of Abandon
1 Forest

Creatures 11
4 Foundry Street Denizen
4 Monastery Swiftspear
3 Zurgo Bellstriker

Spells 29
4 Exquisite Firecraft
4 Atarka's Command
4 Lightning Strike
4 Stoke the Flames
4 Hordeling Outburst
4 Dragon Fodder
3 Wild Slash
2 Searing Blood

Sideboard 15
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Roast
3 Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh
2 Searing Blood
2 Arc lightning[/deck]

I think Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh is quite good vs durdle Green.

^Its the same concept as the thopter list except faster but lacking the evasion (which makes it better vs other aggro and control but weaker vs midrange).

+The Thopter list which dauntless, lazer and I worked on - which is slightly slower but has more reach and doesn't get crushed by well timed Blight Biles.

Do you think the splash for Green in necessary? It is a lot of damage and some inconsistency.
Good list though, I think I'd swap 1 Zurgo for 1 Lightning Bezerker though.


I guess without green it would look a lot like the middle list I posted.


Any thoughts on if running Chains is viable again with Junk Aggro w/Command on the downswing?

Do you think the splash for Green in necessary? It is a lot of damage and some inconsistency.

I think it will depend on the metagame in the first few weeks that inconsistency and damage will be a liability vs the swarm of small aggro.

When the meta-game stabilizes I believe the risk/reward is worth it vs midrange and control decks - I also prefer burns to creatures once it hits T3+ so the extra 2cc 3 damage spells will do wonders.

Any thoughts on if running Chains is viable again with Junk Aggro w/Command on the downswing?

If your only splashing [mana]W[/mana] for chains in the Burn then then no (I think [mana]B[/mana] would be better in that case) if its something like that last list you posted then I think its fine .

- - - - - - -

Thoughts on Darksteel Citadel? What is the correct number to help feed Pia and Kiran Nalaar and Shrapnel Blast without hurting Eidolon of the Great Revel and Searing Blood? The old Pre-ORI Rg list ran 19 [mana]R[/mana] without issues so is 19 [mana]R[/mana] and 4 Darksteel doable? or should it only be 2-3 Darksteel?

According to Frank Karsten it should be 20. 3 Citadel also "feels" most correct as the risk of drawing double Citadel early in the game (which would be awkward) is much lower that way. Darksteel Citadel is certainly no Mutavault in this deck, so the rewards don't outweigh the risks.

[deck=MDU's RU Thopter Burn]Lands 23
8 Mountain
4 Shivan Reef
4 Temple of Epiphany
4 Darksteel Citadel
3 Mana Confluence

Creatures 12
4 Hangarback Walker
4 Thopter Engineer
4 Pia and Kiran Nalaar

Support 5
4 Ensoul Artifact
1 Dig Through Time

Burn 20
4 Exquisite Firecraft
4 Shrapnel Blast
4 Lightning Strike
4 Wild Slash
4 Magma Jet[/deck]

Maybe? I still prefer MonoRed not sure about swiftspear.

I like that RG burn deck the more I look at it...

I wanted to swap some creatures for more tokens and I also wanted to stop lifegain, Command just ties that together so well.

Are you guys just waiting for MTGO? Or have you been testing online with Xmage or cockatrice?

Also what did we establish for required mountains for Chained MDU?

I swear it was like 10 minimum but that WR deck that did well only running 4 Mountain 4 Evolving wilds.

Just seems like too little mountains.

We're all waiting on MTGO D:

Rg is pretty much the same as the old Atarka Sligh deck from the Pre-ORI days (list) except with Exquisite Firecraft so we know its going to work already

Also what did we establish for required mountains for Chained MDU?

I swear it was like 10 minimum but that WR deck that did well only running 4 Mountain 4 Evolving wilds.

Just seems like too little mountains.

I actually forgot, its been awhile since the old days - I guess it depends on when you want to cast it by, I think 8 is the correct number since your not really going to chain a 1-drop right so you can afford to wait a little.

Yeah I wasnt a big fan of the old Atarka Red deck , a little too all in rush for me but Exquisite Firecraft changes that just enough to have my attention.

Actually used Atarka Red at the Regional PTQ but the land never ever worked...always flood in that deck and hit my first 6 land drops, I'm cursed with it. Legit happens every time I play.

Also what did we establish for required mountains for Chained MDU?

I swear it was like 10 minimum but that WR deck that did well only running 4 Mountain 4 Evolving wilds.

Just seems like too little mountains.

We stretched it to 3 Moutains + 4 Mires in early Mardu builds. But it's the lower lower limit amount, I'd play 8/9 if I can.

A ton of Abzan Control at SCG this past weekend... This?

[deck]Thopter Burn Atarka[/deck]

[deck=MDU's Thopter Aggro]Lands 22
19 Mountain
3 Darksteel Citadel

Creatures 18
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Foundry Street Denizen
4 Hangarback Walker
4 Thopter Engineer
2 Pia and Kiran Nalaar

Burn 20
4 Stoke the Flames
4 Exquisite Firecraft
4 Shrapnel Blast
4 Lightning Strike
4 Wild Slash

Sideboard 15
4 Searing Blood
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
3 Roast
2 Harness by Force
2 Seismic Rupture[/deck]

Notes:
Hangarback Walker is really powerful
Stoke the Flames, Exquisite Firecraft and Shrapnel Blast provide excellent reach
4x5=20

Did you ever play tokens MDU? I wonder if hangerback is suitable for that deck.