Welcome to the UR Midrange Primer for Theros Standard. This will be a place for discussing UR midrange archetype throughout the 2013-2014 Standard season.
UR decks are usually tempo-based decks that employ efficient spells and creatures to produce a fast clock. These decks tend to play a thread like Delver of Secrets or
Young Pyromancer and protect it with permission like Mana Leak, Remand, and other various countermagic. UR midrange is not this deck.
Why not? We're missing a couple of things. First, we no longer have an efficient one-drop. One could argue for Nivmagus Elemental, but exiling our own spells to pump a creature that could potentially be hit with a Doom Blade or bounced back to our hand is not something UR decks ever want to be doing. You could go all-in with cipher spells like Hands of Binding to exile to him, but that strategy is highly variant and the cipher spells themselves are not powerful effects. We do have Young Pyromancer, which is a great card that I expect to see a lot of play this Standard season, but beyond that there are no real efficient tempo creatures available to us at the moment.
But there's another even bigger reason why I feel like UR tempo is not a Tier 1
strategy at the moment - no efficient one-mana cantrip. For now Quicken is the best we can hope for, and that's simply unacceptable. In the previous Standard environment, we had Thought Scour, which was great in a format with Snapcaster Mage since we would mill ourself for extra targets for good 'ol Tiago. Quicken offers no such flexibility in the early game. I was hoping for a Serum Visions reprint in Theros since it fits the flavor of the set design, but we were not so lucky. If such a card is printed in the following two sets, we could revisit the tempo strategy, but I feel like there is another UR archetype that is more competitive in this format regardless of the presence of cantrips. Enter UR midrange.
What is UR Midrange?
UR Midrange is like a cross between tempo and draw-go strategies. We employ a high amount of efficient burn spells to fend off
early-game threats, a few counterspells to answer a variety of problems throughout the game, and card advantage engines to stabilize the board, all while playing mostly on our opponent's turn. We eventually land a massive threat that must be dealt with immediately before it threatens lethal damage.
That sounds a lot like a control deck. Why aren't you calling it control?
In many matchups that's exactly what you are! You will typically be playing a control role against aggro and midrange decks. But this deck offers some flexibility against control strategies, allowing you to shift to a more aggressive role to force your control opponent to answer your threats quickly, of which you have many.
II. Building the Deck
Principles of a UR Midrange deck
In building a UR midrange deck, we want the following three things:
1) Consistency: We need our deck to perform as
we expect it to every time. That means running a large enough suite of burn spells so that we see at least one in our opening hand. It also means employing some number of spells that dig, such as scry spells and card advantage engines, in order to set up our draws so that we always have access to action.
2) Flexibility: We want almost all of our cards to be relevant in every matchup. Against aggro, we want cards we can play in the early game to reduce incoming damage. Against midrange, we want some of those same cards to be relevant against the larger threats they will be playing. Against control, we want some of those cards to put enough pressure on our opponent to force an answer from them or threaten lethal damage.
3) Inevitability: We want our deck to be so threat dense that once we set up a favorable board state there is little that our opponent can do to stop us. This means we have so many threats that our opponent can't possibly answer all of them.
n Card Choices
CREATURES
1 drops
There is nothing we want to play in this deck at the one drop spot.
2 drops Frostburn Weird – this is EXACTLY the kind of card we want to be playing in this deck. Red-based aggro decks have a very hard time dealing with this card. He doesn’t die to any of their early threats, survives Lightning Strike and Magma Jet, and pumps himself in the late game for extra damage once we’ve cleared the board. Against midrange, he can potentially trade with Loxodon Smiter and walls any 3/x creature they play. Against control, his pump effect is a significant way to get in for extra damage. His hybrid mana cost also makes him extremely easy for this deck to cast. Omenspeaker – a semi-functional replacement for Augur of Bolas only without the possible card advantage. This deck definitely loves scry effects, but at one less toughness than Frostburn Weird, he is less optimal as a
blocking body. He also dies to Anger of the Gods, which is a sweeper we definitely want to run somewhere in our 75. Furthermore, he is much less effective in the control matchup. Young Pyromancer – we play a lot of spells in this deck, and with this guy in play we can generate a lot of tokens that could eventually get out of control. This could be a card to look into, but a quick look at the 3 drop slot reveals that there may be better options.
3 drops Nivix Cyclops – a great flexible card for us. He’s effectively a three-mana Frostburn Weird that can’t attack in the early game, which is fine against aggro. In midrange matchups, he can trade with Loxodon Smiters and even larger creatures due to his triggered ability. For instance, if we’re facing a larger creature like one spawned from Advent of the Wurm, we can block the Wurm token with our Cyclops, then before combat damage Magma Jet the Wurm token. This does six total damage to the token
at the cost of a two-for-one, but many times plays like this will be optimal. In the late game, he can do massive amounts of damage out of nowhere if not blocked. Spellheart Chimera – a great late-game threat for us. We run a lot of instants so this guy will be very large by the time we play him, often being a two-turn clock for our opponent due to evasion. That said, we don’t want to play this guy in the early and mid game if we can help it, so two of this guy is probably correct. Izzet Staticaster – we like playing on our opponent’s turn, so the flash is very good. Also good is his ability to ping x/1s, which will be especially relevant in matchups with Young Pyromancer. He’s terrible against midrange and control though, so this guy will be relegated to the sideboard.
[card]Chandra’s Phoenix[/card] – given the amount of burn we’ll be running in this deck, recurring Chandra’s Phoenix is an easy task. Her haste and evasion
make her a constant threat. Good card for a lower curve UR deck that wants to be more aggressive.
4 drops Fluxcharger – an interesting card. Similar to Spellheart Chimera but strictly worse in the late game since the Chimera will always be larger save some freak accident where our graveyard has been freshly exiled. Since there’s little reason for grave hate right now, this point is irrelevant.
5 drops Stormbreath Dragon – our new Thundermaw Hellkite. Protection from white makes him immune to Warleader’s Helix and Chained to the Rocks. The Monstrous ability is relevant in the late game but could also be winmore depending on the kind of deck you are building. Hypersonic Dragon – flying and haste make him a very relevant threat to play. He also turns sorceries into instants which is good for decks playing powerful sorceries. That said, Stormbreath Dragon is more relevant for our draw-go philosophy, not to
mention his protection from white and Monstrous ability. Mercurial Chemister – draws you two extra cards every turn after he’s played, but does nothing to develop your board state when he comes down. Also highly vulnerable. Not recommended. Prognostic Sphinx – evasion, functional hexproof, and scry 3 when we attack. Five toughness puts him out of range of all burn spells even if we choose not to make him hexproof, and he will also survive combats against all but the biggest fliers. Worth consideration in some builds.
6 drops Aetherling – the control deck’s finisher of choice. Extremely hard to kill and represents a fast clock. His casting cost is high and you can’t really cast him without 8-9 land on the board since you need a way to exile him multiple times in case our opponent has multiple ways to deal with him. Playing this card means we can’t be more proactive against control decks since he fills a similar
role to Spellheart Chimera, which comes down much sooner. Playing both the Chimera and Aetherling seems too clunky. Melek, Izzet Paragon – a source of card advantage the turn after you play him. His ability is very strong with scry being in Theros. A neat kitchen table card, but not something playable in a competitive format.
INSTANTS AND SORCERIES
1 cmc Shock – one mana for two damage. Pretty simple. Great against aggro decks. Underwhelming against everything else.
2 cmc Magma Jet – it’s Shock for one more mana, but we want it for the scry 2. Filtering our draws is exactly the kind of effect we want in this deck.
Izzet Charm – the definitive flexible spell. Against aggro it’s a removal spell. Against midrange it can either counter that pesky
enchantment or Advent of the Wurm you’d rather not deal with later, and against control you force your opponent to keep mana open for it. Also filters out cards when the other two modes become obsolete.
[card]Voyage’s End[/card] – good tempo card. Scry 1 is nice. Not the kind of card we want to play in our deck though.
3 cmc Anger of the Gods – excellent sweeper against aggro decks. Somewhat effective or mostly dead depending on what aggro deck you’re playing against, and absolutely dead against control. Maindeckable depending on the meta and/or what kind of filter effects you’re running.
Dissolve – counter any spell and scry 1. An upgraded Cancel.
Variable cmc Syncopate – good counter to run in decks with a large amount of land, but you definitely don’t want too many. I like two in my 75.
[card]Turn / Burn[/card] – a card you
definitely want to mainboard some number of. Doubles as burn and removal. I expect a lot of Desecration Demon and Voice of Resurgence in the new meta, and this card deals with both easily. Let your opponent declare attackers with his Demon, then simply turn him into a 0/1 Weird and block him. Just make sure your table is bolted to the ground before you do this.
UTILITY CARDS
Chandra, Pyromaster – the best planeswalker in Standard by far. Her 0 ability will basically draw us a card every turn which is the epitome of inevitability. While we do run a nonzero number of counters, we simply don’t worry about the off chance of exiling a counterspell, and it’s even more unlikely to occur since we’re running scry effects. Every other time this effect is gamebreaking. Her +1 is relevant for us in the late game if we need to move blockers out of the way to do massive damage with a card like Spellheart Chimera or Nivix Cyclops. It also outright kills
x/1s like Young Pyromancer and his tokens. Activating her ultimate is basically pressing the IWIN button for us. This is the kind of card we want to see in every match. Run at least three. Hammer of Purphoros – running a lot of land? Run this card. It turns all of our land drops into threats that must be dealt with. The haste it grants is not irrelevant either, as dropping a hasted Spellheart Chimera late game can just win the game immediately. Steam Augury – an inverse Fact or Fiction. I should not need to explain why this card is good. This card is most effective when we can employ ways to recur the cards discarded with Steam Augury. Unfortunately, not many opportunities for this exist within the current Standard format in blue and red. Thoughtflare – draw four and discard two. At one less mana it digs as deep as Opportunity but you end up with fewer cards. It also gives you a
little more control over the cards you keep compared to Steam Augury for one more mana.
III. The Sideboard
Building a sideboard for an undeveloped meta is difficult. It all comes down to proper evaluation of the card pool. With that in mind, let me share my thoughts on what the meta will look like at the beginning of Theros Standard.
1) Three-color decks will be scarce: the mana just isn’t there. Players are going to be forced to play twelve (!) shocks if they want any kind of speed to deal with aggro threats, and with the only other dual lands ALWAYS coming into play tapped, they simply won’t be fast or consistent enough to win.
2) The format will be diverse: we will need our sideboard to be flexible for a variety of matchups. Having one card in our sideboard that answers only one thing will generally be bad unless the effect is immensely powerful in that one scenario.
3) Black-based control decks will be the strongest
of all control decks: between Desecration Demon, Thoughtseize, Hero’s Downfall, and other powerful cards, black has a very nice card pool for control strategies. This lends itself to number 4.
4) Desecration Demon and Blood Baron of Vizkopa will be the creatures to beat: not many decks have answers to these guys. Red decks cry when they see Demon and black decks can’t Doom Blade it. Demon dies to Putrefy, Chained to the Rocks, Dreadbore, Hero’s Downfall, and Dark Betrayal out of the side. Blood Baron dies to Mizzium Mortars and…well, that’s it (unless we count Curse of the Swine and Rapid Hybridization, which is effectively card disadvantage). If the meta develops as I expect it to, we’ll need a couple more answers to these guys in our sideboard.
5) Assemble the Legion will be a premier card in RW decks: this card is a huge headache for decks without enchantment removal if not countered. We have to either race it or die. Having answers to it will be necessary.
6) Young Pyromancer will be a large presence
in the meta initially: a lot of people want to experiment with this card, and I can’t fault them. It’s an awesome card. We will have to see if he ends up being as competitive as he currently is in Legacy, but until then, I expect to see a lot of brews building around this card.
What are some good sideboard cards to consider? Dispel – a one-mana counterspell in instant-heavy decks. Very nice to have for counterspell wars. Negate – flexible counterspell to answer noncreatures. Enchantments are of particular concern to us since we have no way to deal with them outside of counterspells, so running more of these to answer those cards is good. Also nice to bring in against decks that are light in creatures. Essence Scatter – good against creature-heavy decks, and especially good for countering creatures typically out of reach of our burn spells. Ratchet Bomb –
if a threat ends up getting through a counterspell that we can’t deal with easily, we’ll need this card to deal with it. Counterflux – an uncounterable counterspell. Excellent during our opponent’s turn when he’s playing a proactive spell like Aetherling since he can’t do anything about it. Izzet Staticaster – nice 1/1 Elemental tokens you have there. Would be a shame if something were to happen to them… Mizzium Mortars – deals with Loxodon Smiter and other x/4s and also acts as a late game sweeper for those types of creatures. Anger of the Gods – good to have for aggro matchups, and especially effective if we build our deck to be mostly immune to it. Chandra, Pyromaster – if you’re running less than four of these maindeck, you should probably put the others in the side. Blue-based control decks have few answers to this card, and running the full
playset increases your resiliency to counterspells and exile effects.
Thoughtflare? Why not Opportunity? For 1 mana more instead of discarding these cards - you are actually getting them into your hands!
Also, 25 lands seems to be a lot.
Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 12:03 am
by LP, of the Fires
Steam augry and opportunity>thoughtflare
Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 12:26 am
by Christen
I'm a bit iffy on Chandra + counterspells. Opportunity is better than Thoughtflare (Steam Augury is no FoF). I'd play a full set of Spellheart Chimera just because I want to always draw it. It's not as resilient as Aetherling late game as well.
Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 12:30 am
by Valdarith
I don't think the argument is between Thoughtflare and Opportunity. It's between Thoughtflare and Steam Augury. The fact that Steam Augury comes down a turn sooner is very relevant. While Steam Augury introduces more variance in terms of quality of cards drawn, on average it should net more card advantage over a large sample size. Is this enough to make it flat-out better? You are probably correct in your analysis. I'm willing to bet that a lot of hands with Steam Augury in them are more keepable than ones with Thoughtflare.
25 lands is fine with two of them being Mutavault. We always have Hammer to turn them into dudes and we can also filter them with Izzet Charm. With Steam Augury in the deck in place of Thoughtflare I could comfortably go down to 24.
As for Spellheart Chimera, no, I certainly do not want to always see it. This card is not very good in the early or mid game. I would much rather land a Nivix Cyclops
or draw any other spell early than the Chimera. We also are not relying on it as our only wincon like many Ux decks running Aetherling do.
Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:26 pm
by Valdarith
Here's a different build I'm considering. Definitely more aggressive.
I like this version the most. 3 Shock mainboard is nice since I have no 3 cmc instants so it allows me to potentially cast two spells in one turn. It also gives me a good turn one play against aggro. Going up to three Weirds in the main gives me another easily casted creature and is good in a lot of matchups. Went down to three Izzet Charm and Steam Augury, the former because I usually don't want four of what I would consider a utility spell in my deck as all of the modes it
provides is slightly overcosted, and the latter because I'd rather increase the number of low cmc spells in my hand than run the risk of having an opening hand with two Steam Augury in it. Not having the full playset is also helped by having Chandra in the deck.
Turn / Burn has performed exactly as expected. I've used it to pick of Desecration Demons by using just the Turn side and Chandra's +1. Turn also "turns" off Indestructible with the new rules change which is great.
Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:54 pm
by Elricity
Looks solid. I can appreciate why hammer didn't make the cut.
Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:05 pm
by hoeiberg
Hi there
Thanks for a great primer, I'm really interested in this deck type and I think you have gone a long way towards making it good with this primer. I do have two questions though. I'm rather new to deck building (only ever build one other constructed deck) so if my questions are stupid please tell me why.
Question 1: Why are you running Chandra over Jace? With all the instants in the deck getting the cards in hand, and filtering away dead draws seems insanely strong. Jace's +1 also seems relevant at least in some MU's. I realize that Jace can't use he card-draw as often as Chandra but is that really enough of a difference to boot him?
Question 2: How does this deck deal with G/W midrange decks? There are no counterspells and only Turn/Burn can kill 5 toughness and above creatures. Wouldn't some number of counterspells be beneficial in this matchup as well as other matchups featuring big creatures (
Desecration Demon, Deadbridge Goliath, Kalonian Hydra, Ember Swallower, etc.)?
Aging, if these questions are obviously stupid please tell me why, I'm always eager to learn from better players/deckbuilders.
Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:18 pm
by Valdarith
Hi there
Thanks for a great primer, I'm really interested in this deck type and I think you have gone a long way towards making it good with this primer. I do have two questions though. I'm rather new to deck building (only ever build one other constructed deck) so if my questions are stupid please tell me why.
Question 1: Why are you running Chandra over Jace? With all the instants in the deck getting the cards in hand, and filtering away dead draws seems insanely strong. Jace's +1 also seems relevant at least in some MU's. I realize that Jace can't use he card-draw as often as Chandra but is that really enough of a difference to boot him?
Question 2: How does this deck deal with G/W midrange decks? There are no counterspells and only Turn/
Burn can kill 5 toughness and above creatures. Wouldn't some number of counterspells be beneficial in this matchup as well as other matchups featuring big creatures (Desecration Demon, Deadbridge Goliath, Kalonian Hydra, Ember Swallower, etc.)?
Aging, if these questions are obviously stupid please tell me why, I'm always eager to learn from better players/deckbuilders.
1) Chandra is the more flexible planeswalker. I can be aggressive with her by making dudes unblockable or I can just draw an extra card every turn. The latter is not irrelevant with Magma Jet in the format. I've also went ultimate with Chandra a couple of times which flat-out wins the game. I could never do that with Jace. Also, Chandra + Phoenix synergy.
2) Counterspells are a nonbo with Chandra which can be a problem since we don't have ENOUGH scry effects. Running counters is basically at your own risk. You bring in Mortars postboard for this matchup obviously, and sometimes have to two-for-one if you're
really desperate. Frostburn Weird actually works pretty well in this match, and Young Pyromancer provides dudes for chump blocking if necessary. Phoenix and Chimera offer evasion that GW midrange typically lacks. Alternatively, you could go tempo with cards like Voyage's End, counterspells, and 20 land and top out with 2-3 Steam Augury. But looking at the card pool I just don't see it. We have no cantrips and our counters are Syncopate (bad in a lower curve deck) and Dissolve (requires UU). I think aggression is the better answer. Also, with all your burn spells, you could run Ash Zealot for first strike.
Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:27 pm
by Jack
Maybe it was because Val just wanted to use Chandra and didn't have Jace on his mind, but there are good reasons for playing her over Jace. The most obvious reason is her synergy with Chandra's Phoenix (not a very strong upside, but worth mentioning). The second reason is the fact that the mana base is shifted towards red, making it easier to cast Chandra on curve. Additionally, while Jace's +1 just helps protect himself, Chandra's does the same while also generating virtual card advantage.
As for the deck's ability to answer big creatures, this is unfortunately one of the weak points of the deck. Turn//Burn works, as you mentioned, as does 2 burn spells or Mortars + Chandra/Staticaster. I haven't played the deck much, but from experience with red decks (both aggro and otherwise), the midrange matchup is usually a tough one.
EDIT: looks like val beat me to it
Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:17 pm
by RedNihilist
I know I'll look stupid by saying this, but what about Thassa?
I know that she's pretty lame, that she'll never be more than a free scry every turn and will NEVER reach the requirements that lets her become a creature, but she's pretty cheap and potentially fastens up your digs and helps Chandra's +0.
Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:22 pm
by Valdarith
She's been mentioned outside the thread and she's pretty good. I think in a more controlling shell she would be a great fit.
Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:55 pm
by InflatablePie
Going to FNM and running UR control. My FNM's usually fairly competetive, or so I thought before rotation. Saw a lot of simple, cheap mono-red aggro last week, hopefully with mono red having a good showing at last weekend's SCG Open, there'll still be plenty this week. I think this deck is poised pretty well against mono-red. Sadly it has weak spots against G/R + B/W midrange and Esper control, which I'm paranoid of running into since a good portion of the store seems to netdeck the high-placing SCG lists.
And sadly I have done no actual testing, so most of my theorycrafting is hypothetical. Oh well.
Sideboard:
- Counterflux, Negate, Dispel - counterspells for control matchups and some midrange matchups. Self-explanatory. Was going to go 2:2 Negate:Dispel, but I figure Negate is useful in more matchups. Also wanted to try Annul and Swan Song (leaning towards the latter as this deck can kill/block the token multiple ways), but I'll only be looking into those if something like Selesnya Auras becomes more of a thing.
- Essence Scatter, Mizzium Mortars, Anger of the Gods - for aggro matchups. Originally I had 3x Frostburn Weird in the board with Mortars+Anger MB, but decided to drop
them. I would much rather counter or burn their creatures than tap out for a blocker. Especially if they can burn or otherwise get around it. The only thing Weird might do better is handle Loxodon Smiter but then again Mortars does that without pumping in mana.
- Burning Earth - for three-color/mana-greedy decks. Considered Peak Eruption (Dega/UWR) but this works against Esper better soooooo...
- Turn/Burn - for midrange decks (G/R Monsters, BW Midrange, etc.) that I can't burn out otherwise.
- Ratchet Bomb - I needed a 15th card and this is a catch-all. Maybe this should be something else; it feels slow in this deck. Insurance against Selesnya Auras I guess.
Things I don't like:
- If a creature I can't burn resolves, I'm boned. Notably Obzedat, Reaper of the Wilds, pretty much anything with >4 toughness.
- Izzet Charm. I had two mainboard but took them out because most of the time they were useless. I dislke it so much I'm leaving this here.
- Half the deck needing to be instant-speed/
reactionary, half of it tapping out for big-ish things fairly early (Anger, Jace, Sphinx, etc.). This may be a bit tricky to pilot.
- No way to stabilize life. Not having access to Revelation sucks. I'm considering finding a way to jam Trading Post in here, honestly.
- Deck basically folds to Esper. Need to resolve an Aetherling while keeping Obzedat at bay and my other permanents usually won't stick. Anger's a dead card (hence why I'm running three, not four). It looks better post-board, where I can force them to fight over a Burning Earth (may not sub this in depending on enchantment removal, or may board out game 3) and have counterspell protection.
- The mana. 11/7 seems right but I dunno. It needs a lot of red to get a t3 Anger or t6+ Mortars, very important out of the board, but mainboard it doesn't really use a lot. Maybe it's just in my head.
- Number of Magma Jet. 2 seems like too few, but 3 seems like too much. And I hate drawing multiples when it's bad. Also I only have two but that's
less important.
Things I'm trying out:
- Singleton Niv-Mizzet. If my opponent lets him resolve and he stays there, he's very difficult to deal with.
- Singleton Rapid Hybridization. Good against 4-5+ toughness creatures since the token dies to Anger/Strike/Sphinx-block, can act as a Fog of sorts (removing attacker from combat), basically a worse but cheaper Turn/Burn. Might board this (to board in against midrange) for a better one-of. Maybe MB another Mortars, or try out Swan Song and drop a sideboard card? I could also drop it for a Cyclonic Rift (probably better) or another Jace (going -2 Jace into playing another Jace is funny, I just don't like tapping out on t4 every game, which I most likely will end up doing most games if I'm running all 4).
Well, wish me luck. Let's see if UR is a real thing or if it's more like mono-B control: playable in theory and everyone wants to build it, but it just doesn't have enough going for it.
Or maybe I'll just win solely due to opponent misplays
between AoT and Augury. I like that plan too.
Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:59 pm
by Link
Pie gettin his brew on!
theres no way esper is a weak match-up for you. Turn//burn their obzedat/bloodbarons, counterflux? Geegee.
I think quicken is better than steam augury here. Besides the utility of quicken anger of the gods, its an early cantrip to start hitting your land draws in a way that steam augury doesnt. I dont think you ever want to cast steam augury over Jace, AoT, for example.
also -3 lightning strike +2 magma jet, +1 anger of the gods?
Magma jet is just seriously awesome
Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:14 pm
by Link
burning earth in UR also looks cool.... Counterburn? would definitely be a lot different maind deck though. Probably no aetherling, more burn, no jaces, Ral zarek instead ;D
Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:33 pm
by Yarpus
Counterburn some kind of broken CA engine and really efficent burn. I actually piloted this kind of deck during SoM-INN Standard for polish championships.
We had tons of CA. Think Twice, Snapcaster, Jace's Intuition. And efficent burn/trick spells like Brimstone Volley which were ending games.
Nothing like that is present at the moment except of Steam Augury which would be fine in terms of being CA engine. But you can't play counterburn without 4-5 damage spells. You are just demanding too many cards to achieve a kill on your opponent AND still be able to control the board.
Counterburn is not an option.
Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:34 pm
by Jack
Thanks for the book, Khaos! I feel like I learned something just by looking at the cover page.
Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:39 pm
by Haiiro Sedai
Pie gettin his brew on!
theres no way esper is a weak match-up for you. Turn//burn their obzedat/bloodbarons, counterflux? Geegee.
I think quicken is better than steam augury here. Besides the utility of quicken anger of the gods, its an early cantrip to start hitting your land draws in a way that steam augury doesnt. I dont think you ever want to cast steam augury over Jace, AoT, for example.
also -3 lightning strike +2 magma jet, +1 anger of the gods?
Magma jet is just seriously awesome
Seriously what are you smoking because it must be some sick shit for this post to make sense.
Steam Augury is card advantage. Quicken is just a cantrip. They do completely different things and are in no way interchangeable. Also getting value by
playing a sorcery instantly isn't even why you playtthe card .
The removal suite depends entirely on what you see people playing. I prefer strike so as to not lose to reck.
Worth noting, the mass swine spell wrecks midrange especially with anger follow up. I would try it over rapid
Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:50 pm
by Yarpus
Steam Augury might get awkward for low-wincon control deck. It's not like you can outright kill someone with your burn. And everytime you play SA, you pray just to not reveal Aetherling as it just doesn't matter what kind of cards you will put in the second pile, Aetherling is gone baby.
SA might become the Vexing Devil of control actually. It never gives you the effect you actually want.
It'd be awesome for low-curve Izzet Aggro though. When you have lots of small threats, just randomly filling your hand with those is what you actually want to achieve.
Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:59 pm
by zemanjaski
SA is ok if all you want is a draw 2 that's sometimes a draw 3. If you're looking for a FOF reprint, you're out of luck.
I'm going to try and do some more primer work this weekend and start an article on Chandra.
That is after I get out of bed which judging on my present state and company is some ways away.
Catch.
Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:43 pm
by Valdarith
You don't want Steam Augury in a control deck. It's really more suited in a threat diverse deck where the card quality is mostly even throughout. Counterburn is a great example of this.
Lots of cheap interaction early, then you find a hammer, resolve it and proceed to draw 100% useable cards for the rest of the game.
It's a true midrange deck; there isn't much card draw, but
what's there is designed to help filter the cards that are bad for the matchup away into useable resources (eg: shocks vs. control) or just accumulate more resources (augury). Remember, hammer turns everything into win conditions, so augury will be more powerful than ever here ~ there's also the interaction with Phoenix.
Ever thoughtflares EOT discarding two Phoenix then magma jet your opponent as a draw 2? That's what this deck does.
A lot.
Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 1:33 pm
by Yarpus
I think your burn package is too weak to win games.
Consider Ral Zarek as source of repetable Strikes.
You are a bit too light on wincons here Zem.
Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 1:36 pm
by zemanjaski
You might be right, I've only got 9 burn that goes upstairs, so it may be hard to keep bringing the Phoenix back. Hmmmm
Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:51 pm
by Yarpus
#ThingsThatZarekDoes
HHHHHNNNNNNGGGGGGGG
Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:06 am
by Valdarith
I actually like Hammer but I'm not sure you even need it. We can always pitch lands with Thoughtflare and Izzet Charm, plus we can always use all the other mana for Frostburn Weird pumps.
I like this because you have 12 burn spells to recur Phoenix. No Hammer, but as said above, we have ways to filter that, plus running three Mutavault helps. And there are plenty of wincons in the deck. Pyromancer, Phoenix, Weird, Mutavault, and burn ought to get you there, no?
Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 3:13 am
by Link
Im a fan of ral zarek as well, h8ters goin h8.
Z's build looks pretty sweet.
I think 4 mutavaults in a list that wants to cast counterflux on curve (supposedly?) is a bit ambitious though. With 2 hammers in the deck I dont know how necessary the full 4 is, (and I feel greedy as it is running 2 in my 24 land gruul deck).
I was testing Alex's Izzet blitz earlier and izzet charm definitely overperformed. G/W is a big archetype now? Counter advent. Counter unflinching courage, laugh all day.
I still have to advocate more turn/burns too. Especially over said coutnerflux (since most decks are just real low curve these days). Having a definite answer to anything at 5, an awesome combat trick at 3, and still BURN (half the name of the archetype right >_>) for 2.... its just such a amazing flexible card. I also dont know how I feel about thought flare when you got the full 4 augurys already and a few more izzet
charm.
To me it reads "draw 4 discard 3" so its 5mana to get 1 ca? Yeah the filter is nice but I think izzet charm is just so much better
Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 4:04 am
by Valdarith
The problem is that there's kind of a threshold for Shock, Turn / Burn, and Magma Jet since they're all two damage burn spells. The trick is finding the best split of those.
Agreed on Mutavault and Counterflux. That's why I only have three in my list.
Turn / Burn has done some pretty sick things for me. It's actually quite hilarious with Chandra but you can't run Chandra + Steam Augury because they fit in two different archetypes.
Will you or Alex post the Blitz deck?
Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 4:16 am
by zemanjaski
I can get behind 3 or even 2 Mutavault, I just want some extra pressure for Planeswalkers.
I'm not big on Turn // Burn; it's just ok I think. I might like 2 in my 75 I suppose.
RE: Counterflux, I think the deck is already full of cheap interaction (shock, spear, jet) and low cost creatures; the aim is to aggressively trade vs. aggro then pull ahead with augury, Thoughtflare and Phoenix recursion.
RE: Thoughtflare, the best I can offer is that you need to play with it to see what it does. It's like Brainstorm in legacy; it's closer to 'draw 3 relevant cards'. The interaction with Phoenix is really nice.
It might all be a little too cute. It's going to wreck esper though.
To me it reads "draw 4 discard 3" so its 5mana to get 1 ca? Yeah the filter is nice but I think izzet charm is just so much better
izzet charm's filter-mode is draw 2 discard 3 then, y'know.
I really like V's list, actually. not sure how viable it is, but it looks fun. I do have a few tweaks, though.
---
Creatures: no changes here, of course.
Spells:
- 2x Izzet Charm, 2x Essence Scatter - I like this split. Usually I'd suggest 2 Syncopate/2 Scatter for decks (also I usually really dislike Izzet Charm), but if you're running Phoenix in UR, Charm is a little better. And you definitely need something to counter t2 Domri or even t4 Jace.
- 4x Steam Augury, 2x Thoughtflare - I've heard Thoughtflare
is good and even better than Steam Augury in a portion of cases. I still like Augury, but it does give your opponent more info and you don't always get the cards you want or end up tossing a threat away. Again, it's better with Phoenix (and Hammers, in the case of hitting 3-4 land or something). Thoughtflare may only give you one card more after casting it, but I still like it as a two-of. However, I don't think the full set of Augury here. Only because sometimes I would rather have a threat/answer than have to dig. I think 3 is fine. -1 Augury
- 2x Counterflux - I don't like this over Dissolve. It's a bit of a pet peeve that people just toss this in any URx control deck because it's better than Cancel. It's good in the sideboard against control matchups, but I feel the Scry 1 is more useful for the maindeck. Think about it; what are you countering that you don't want them to counter back on game 1? Looking at the top 16 from SCG Worcester, the control decks only run 2-3
Syncopate and most but not all run 2 Dissolve. I guess Counterflux is better game 1 if you're countering a Jace or Obzedat on turn 7/8, but still. More access to Scry never hurts. -2 Counterflux, +2 Dissolve / SB: +3 Counterflux
- 2x Shock, 4x Magma Jet, 4x Lightning Strike, 2x Turn/Burn (and 2x Izzet Charm) - The burn package. I like the Lightning Strikes and they should stay in, especially since we can't run Anger (we can but I really don't suggest it). I'm not a huge fan of all four Jet though. I like having at least one per game. Early on we want to drop a Weird/YP and hopefully a Phoenix or another creature. When we need to topdeck card-draw or an answer, a two-mana shock isn't going to help, even if it has Scry 2. I'd much rather have a third Turn/Burn. This deck seems to struggle with midrange due to low counterspells and mostly 2-3 damage burn. If something like Obzedat resolves, we're in a tight spot. We still have the option to shock them
for two mana (even if we lose the Scry) while gaining the option to take care of anything for five mana. Plus, Turn is awesome with a Pyromancer on board. That's a nice turn 3 Stormbreath Dragon... Turn, spawn token, block with token? I also don't like two Shock here. Again, we have plenty of burn-for-two even if it's at two mana, and I think we'll draw enough of it that we don't need to see a Shock midgame. That said, I like it in rare situations (shocking mana dorks or early aggro drops) so I think one is fine main and we can bring more in for other matchups. -1 Shock, -1 Magma Jet, +1 Turn/Burn / SB: +2 Shock
- We need another threat. This deck can lose game 1 to Verdict/Anger hard and only running twelve creatures is iffy. I was thinking a planeswalker. We can't play Chandra with counterspells (again, we can but...). Jace AoT is good, but midrange still kinda rolls over him. I'm not the biggest fan of Ral Zarek, but he does count for Phoenix
recursion and can help take out planeswalkers/big creatures and maybe something else so we don't trade 2 cards to get rid of one threat. I think this is where we stick those two extra cards. +2 Ral Zarek
- Sideboard.
3x Counterflux (as said above)
3x Hammer (for Control decks)
1x Turn/Burn (we want the full four for midrange decks)
2x Shock (for aggro/mana dork matchups)
3x Ratchet Bomb - Cards like Reaper of the Wilds, Prognostic Sphinx and Mistcutter Hydra give our deck fits. Ratchet Bomb helps with this, since most of our permanents are 2/3 mana (Ral's at 4, so start throwing Bolts if you run into that situation). Also Master of Waves I guess, but we can 2-for-1 if we have to. Also helps with other enchantments we can't get rid of, be it Selesnya Auras or Assembles. Or even tokens if we have to (5/5s are usually more deadly than our YP's 1/1s...). If Ral Zarek doesn't work in this list, I'd probably throw in two Bombs over him and add two Negate or Pithing Needle to
this slot or something.
3x Mizzium Mortars - again for midrange-y decks. GW showed up this past weekend, so this hits Smiters and whatnot and also hits Blood Baron/Stormbreath Dragon.
The board could probably use some work still, but I feel like that's a decent start.
Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:00 pm
by InflatablePie
oh, two more things:
- 3x Mutavault - no no no. Go down to 2. You do not want to keep or mull into a hand that looks like: Mutavault, Mutavault, Basic, Weird, Phoenix, non-land or something. 2 should still be decent.
- 4x Izzet Guildgate - for a deck that wants to run out threats on turns 2/3 and protect/support them afterward, I'd hate to draw into double-guildgate or gate+shock and lose life for no reason. I'd drop two Gates for a basic each. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the mana requirement doesn't seem too harsh here. Double-red for Phoenix and the only double-blue is Dissolve/Counterflux? I guess things could get wonky if you're boarding in the Counterflux AND Hammers, but I still kinda think running less gates may work better.
100% sure on the first change, 70% sure on the second. And I think these should be made independently of the other card changes, too.
Oh, Prog Sphinx could
also work as a threat over Ral. But it doesn't recur Phoenix and costs five when this deck probably doesn't want to go over 4 for permanents. Just a consideration.
Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:36 pm
by Elricity
21 lands is more than enough for 2 drops, the mutavaults won't hurt him.
He only has 2 one drops so gates aren't really going to slow him down either. Also, he has and on 15/14 colors, he can't go lower and expect to cast them.
Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 3:20 am
by Valdarith
I actually like Hammer but I'm not sure you even need it. We can always pitch lands with Thoughtflare and Izzet Charm, plus we can always use all the other mana for Frostburn Weird pumps.
I like this because you have 12 burn spells to recur Phoenix. No Hammer, but as said above, we have ways to filter that, plus running three Mutavault helps. And there are plenty of wincons in the deck. Pyromancer, Phoenix, Weird, Mutavault, and burn
ought to get you there, no?
I'm currently playing this list on MODO. Just went 2-1 vs Devotion Red, winning games one and three easily and losing the second on a mull to four. Despite the mull I was actually in the game which felt great. I really like the deck so far.
Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 4:19 am
by Valdarith
More thoughts after two hours of testing:
1) The mana can be pretty weird. Mulligan rate is pretty high since we often get lands with no red or no blue source and spells that require them.
2) Aggro matches are hilariously easy except for WR which can be challenging with Brave the Elements and Boros Charm to play around.
3) Dega Midrange feels like a bad matchup game one since they are so threat dense. Rakdos's Return hurts if you have no counters.
4) Steam Augury is the tits.
5) Thoughtflare is a burden against aggro decks. Kind of obvious though.
Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 5:28 am
by Valdarith
Just got through with a 3.5 hour session.
I think I'm in love with this deck.
Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 10:10 am
by hoeiberg
Love this deck, recently started testing the old version (the one with Chandra and Chimera) and I seem to have come to many of the same conclusions as you guys, namely feeling short on counters and being burdened by the walkers (although i suspect Zareck would rock vs control, haven't testet that MU yet) as well as being absolutely in love with augury (That card is so good). So that's nice.
How do you feel about the GW match-up? I feel like if i can't counter Voice of Resurgence i fall too far behind having to remove it as well as it's token and often end up loosing to an enchanted Smiter (which even Turn/Burn can't handle). I have considered running some number of Curse of the Swine (even though i'm really not happy about it) and cyclonic rift in the SB to improve this, thoughts?
Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 10:16 am
by Christen
Just got through with a 3.5 hour session.
I think I'm in love with this deck.
Is there anyway to fit in Jace here? He does work in this meta.
Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 1:51 pm
by Valdarith
I actually won a couple of GW matches last night. One game in particular I powered through three resolved Voices. Turn two Voice when we are on the draw can be pretty rough but the only thing you can do is conceed the two for one. You run so much removal anyway that the tokens have a hard tine getting big and are generally kept at bay with Frostburn Weird.
Speaking of Frostburn Weird, he's probably the best card in the deck. Turn two Weird gives a lot of decks the sads right now.
Jace seems okay to run but is probably overkill. You already have good CA engines and your aggro matchup is already highly favorable without him. You want to play on your opponent's turn as much as possible anyway so plopping him down turn four can be a risky proposition. I'd honestly rather run removal in his place mainboard and sideboard counters against control instead of running Jace. Plus there's always that tension with big cards
like Jace and running Steam Augury. We want to be as threat-diverse as possible.
