Dies to Removal

Okay, so this guy is supposed to be our new Thundermaw.
- 4/4: other cards and archetypes will define if being 4/4 matters in good or bad way.
- Flying, Haste: we already know that having both evasion and haste is just great.
- Protection from White: really relevant. White has shitload of fliers, and now we don't give a damn about them. Also, that protects him from Azorius Charm, Detention Sphere and other nasty removal cards.
- Monstrosity 3 for 7, which also deals damage equal to number of cards in opponent's hand: decent mana sink that negates the biggest problem dragon has - 4/4 size. It also serves as straight up damage to the face which is obviously fine for us. It also punishes Sphinx's Revelation.

For Red/Boros/Gruul Sledgehammer it's either him or Scourge
of Valkas.
Opinions?

Okay, so this guy is supposed to be our new Thundermaw.
- 4/4: other cards and archetypes will define if being 4/4 matters in good or bad way.
- Flying, Haste: we already know that having both evasion and haste is just great.
- Protection from White: really relevant. White has shitload of fliers, and now we don't give a damn about them. Also, that protects him from Azorius Charm, Detention Sphere and other nasty removal cards.
- Monstrosity 3 for 7, which also deals damage equal to number of cards in opponent's hand: decent mana sink that negates the biggest problem dragon has - 4/4 size. It also serves as straight up
damage to the face which is obviously fine for us. It also punishes Sphinx's Revelation.

For Red/Boros/Gruul Sledgehammer it's either him or Scourge of Valkas.
Opinions?

How is he supposed to counter blue decks with new blue god though?

How is he supposed to counter blue decks with new blue god though?

By attacking them until they die?


I'm not sure I understand the question - this thing doesn't interact with Thassa at all.

volcanic dragon was tearing apart m12 standard like no one's business.

volcanic dragon was tearing apart m12 standard like no one's business.

So your argument is that a card that cost one more mana and had two less abilities was bad in a completely different meta so this card must be bad too?

By that logic Spitemare didn't see play so Boros Reckoner must be trash, amirite?

volcanic dragon was tearing apart m12 standard like no one's business.

So your argument is that a card that cost one more mana and had two less abilities was bad in a completely different meta so this card must be bad too?

By that logic Spitemare didn't see play so Boros Reckoner must be trash, amirite?

no, my argument is that this card is garbage is based on the
grounds that it is garbage. the comparison to volcanic dragon was an anecdotal jab to reinforce that point.

i think volcanic dragon is a far more apt comparison to this card than thundermaw hellkite, to be fair.

Can u go into a bit more detail as to why you feel it is trash? Honestly I am on the fence with the card but it dosnt feel like utter garbage it feels more nich to me.

# of white targeted removal spells post theros, as currently spoiled, that are relevant: 2
# of those played with any regularity after the printing of burning earth: .5
# of white flying creatures common to block/standard post theros, as currently spoiled: 1
# of turns required to kill with your 5 mana dragon, pre-monstrous: 5
# of turns required to kill with thundermaw hellkite: 4
# of additional turns required before monstrous can be activated after casting your "huge air quotes game ending bomb": 2
# of toughness printed on this card: 4
# of damage done by mizzium mortars: 4
# of decks currently playing sudden impact or analogs: 0
# of creatures with power 4 that cost less than 5 post-theros, as spoiled: so many

edit: I literally forgot Angel of Serenity was a card that they printed in Magic but seeing as it does not currently see play in Standard and is a value add in Block, I don't think that changes much.

I don't know maybe this card is bananas because raar 4/4 flying dragon haste attack you, but RTR has 4/4s for 3 and 5/5s for 4 in a deck very similar to the one Thundermaw Hellkite appears in in the current standard, and waiting one to two turns to pay 7 mana while hoping your opponent doesn't have removal (granted while you are attacking for 4) is a lot for a "you win if they don't have it" type threat.

I think the card is garbage and there are a lot of numbers that I think agree with that, but I'm just one drop in the piss ocean.

no, my argument is that this card is garbage is based on the grounds that it is garbage.

"Thing is bad because it's bad." Gotcha.

Always a pleasure.

# of white targeted removal spells post theros, as currently spoiled, that are relevant: 2
# of those played with any regularity after the printing of burning earth: .5
# of white flying creatures common to block/standard post theros, as currently spoiled: 1
# of turns required to kill with your 5 mana dragon, pre-
monstrous: 5
# of turns required to kill with thundermaw hellkite: 4
# of additional turns required before monstrous can be activated after casting your "huge air quotes game ending bomb": 2
# of toughness printed on this card: 4
# of damage done by mizzium mortars: 4
# of decks currently playing sudden impact or analogs: 0
# of creatures with power 4 that cost less than 5 post-theros, as spoiled: so many

So this is actual reasoning - nice.

# of white targeted removal spells post theros, as currently spoiled, that are relevant: 2 Off the top of my head I can think of Detention Sphere, Orzhov Charm, Warleader's Helix, and probably Chained to Rocks. Azorius Charm isn't removal, but it gets an Honorable Mention. Also note that Selesnya Charm was removal for Thundermaw, but not Stormbreath.

# of those played with any regularity after the printing of burning earth: .5 - I'm not really sure how you can count what
will be played regularly once Theros rotates in. Especially since 2/3s of the set is unspoiled. And Burning Earth only wrecks 3+ color decks while all those answers can be played in 2 colors, and I imagine Enchantment removal will see more play since this is an Enchantment block which brings the threat from Burning Earth down even more.

# of white flying creatures common to block/standard post theros, as currently spoiled: 1 - Once again, speculation about a meta that we know next to nothing about. Just wondering, though, how many non white flyers do you expect to see common play post Theros based on current deck lists?

# of turns required to kill with your 5 mana dragon, pre-monstrous: 5
# of turns required to kill with thundermaw hellkite: 4
# of additional turns required before monstrous can be activated after casting your "huge air quotes game ending bomb": 2 - Can't argue with any of this, though I'm not sure what the point is
anyway - that the card is worse than Thundermaw? Agreed. Doesn't matter since Thundermaw will not be an option. Rakdos Cackler is also worse than Goblin Guide, but that doesn't make it unplayable trash. Also, a 4 power Haste Flyer is more than capable of closing out a game. Once again, I will conceed that it is not as good as one of the best 5cc creatures to have ever seen print, though.

# of toughness printed on this card: 4
# of damage done by mizzium mortars: 4 - The card does die to Mortars, which isn't nothing, but that's the only thing that kills it that didn't kill Thundermaw. In exchange, it can dodge things that did kill Thundermaw like D-Sphere and the Orzhov and Selesnya Charms - so it's actually resilient to more spot removal than Thundermaw was.

and waiting one to two turns to pay 7 mana while hoping your opponent doesn't have removal

It's best to think of Monstorous as the ultimate on a Planeswalker: it's nice if you just happen to get it off, but it won't come up 95% of the time and it's best not to let that factor in to the equation.

With the new R/G Planeswalker, this dragon is going monstrous the turn after it's dropped.

With the new R/G Planeswalker, this dragon is going monstrous the turn after it's dropped.

Okay... fair enough.

block decks are usually a good indicator of what will be good in the "standard to come" since ever, as there is not much support for the less-than-fully-fleshed-out incoming block, or "the decks that don't lose anything" from the previous standard. both block and standard have a midrange "big creature aggro" style deck/s that are pretty popular and one of them includes an analog for this new creature (thundermaw).

orzhov charm is generally not played in either block or standard, and with the return of doom blade, the reprinting of putrefy, and myriad other removal spell options, both currently printed and to be spoiled, i don't think there's really room for that card to ever have a time to shine.

up the removal spell count to 1.5 that it dodges -- detention sphere and warleaders helix (the .5 because who can say if a 3c control deck is even viable with both missing innistrad lands and
burning earth as obstacles).

i would not include chained to the rocks because it's a conditional removal spell. i would even rank it as a bad journey to nowhere, as you require 2 lands or a sacred foundry before you can cast it in the first place.

i don't think it's valid to say enchantment hate will affect burning earth but then in the same breath extol the benefits of enchantment-based removal spells and how this card does things to that.

unless there are new creatures printed in theros that perform the effects of angel of serenity and aurelia better or at are same power level as them, there is currently 1 flying white creature that pro-white is relevant against and a 3-power aurliea that just gets eaten in a 1-on-1 fight even without pro-white.

also it is important to note that if you cannot speculate on what is isn't good post rotation, you must also understand that you cannot speculate on whether or not your 4/4 haste mythic dragon is good as well. telling me that we cannot have some at
least general picture of what cards are good going forward is a two-way street and if you're going to argue that this card is good, you immediately undermine any argument in favor of this card by using that as a defense against my points.

With the new R/G Planeswalker, this dragon is going monstrous the turn after it's dropped.

I think what a 4/4 flying haste creature needs to be good are a bunch of small but non-mana-producing creatures and a 4cc planeswalker with no inherent synergy with those as well.

I still don't see how you can call ot garbage though, once more it feels like a nich card I don't see every deck with red playing it, but thier will def be situations were a deck would want to play this.

this card is pretty much shit.
woopty do, a 4/4 for five that has to survive A WHOLE TWO TURNS before you can get any value out of its monstorous ability, and by that point they've killed it or you're just winning more.

I still don't see how you can call ot garbage though, once more it feels like a nich card I don't see every deck with red playing it, but thier will def be situations were a deck would want to play this.

yeah in Scion dragon of dur EDH when you want to kill all the control players and end up with 3 more power toughness.

block decks are usually a good indicator of what will be good in the "standard to come" since ever, as there is not much support for the less-than-fully-fleshed-out incoming block, or "the decks that don't lose anything" from the previous standard. both block and standard have a midrange "big creature aggro" style deck/s that are pretty popular and one of them includes an analog for this new creature (thundermaw).

orzhov charm is generally not played in either block or standard, and with the return of doom blade, the reprinting of putrefy, and myriad other removal spell options, both currently printed and to be spoiled, i don't think there's really room for that card to ever have a time to shine.

nup the removal spell count to 1.5 that it dodges -- detention sphere and warleaders helix (the .5 because who can say if a 3c control deck is even viable with both missing innistrad lands and burning earth as obstacles).

i would not include chained to the rocks because it's a conditional removal spell. i would even rank it as a bad journey to nowhere, as you require 2 lands or a sacred foundry before you can cast it in the first place.

i don't think it's valid to say enchantment hate will affect burning earth but then in the same breath extol the benefits of enchantment-based removal spells and how this card does things to that.

unless there are new creatures printed in theros that perform the effects of angel of serenity and aurelia better or at are same power level as them, there is currently 1 flying white creature that pro-white is relevant against and a 3-power aurliea that just gets eaten in a 1-on-1 fight even without pro-white.

also it is important to note that if you
cannot speculate on what is isn't good post rotation, you must also understand that you cannot speculate on whether or not your 4/4 haste mythic dragon is good as well. telling me that we cannot have some at least general picture of what cards are good going forward is a two-way street and if you're going to argue that this card is good, you immediately undermine any argument in favor of this card by using that as a defense against my points.

I think Kijin hit the points RT ( just bolded for you.) Don't get me wrong , I have always been A Red supporter and deeply fond of Burn and other decks, but I see no way Stormbreath Dragon will stop the Blue/White deck that will emerge in Theros.

this is a good card

this is a good card

Please clarify your logic then because Shivan Dragon or The Flying Manticore does what this card does with less mana cost

There are conditions at which this card might be even unplayable - but at the moment, I'd consider it as 'fair'. Not excessively strong (it doesn't warp the format; create it's own archetype) but MIGHT be used in already existing ones.
Is this guy the best shit ever printed? Not even sure if JTMS is.
Is this guy constructed-playable in right deck? At the moment, yes.

also it is important to note that if you cannot speculate on what is isn't good post rotation, you must also understand that you cannot speculate on whether or not your 4/4 haste mythic dragon is good as well. telling me that we cannot have some at least general picture of what cards are good going forward is a two-way street and if you're going to argue that this card is good, you immediately undermine any argument in favor of this card by using that as a defense against my points.

I can argue on the merits of this card because I have all the information I need to do so - the stats printed on the card.

You can't argue what the meta will look like post rotation because you don't have all the information you need to do so - the complete card pool
and popular deck archtypes.

What I can't do is argue how the card will stack up in an unknown meta and I don't believe I've tried to do that because I don't know - I've simply pointed out situations and spells that are currently common that support the argument that the card could be playable and even competitive.

guys

guys

sometimes red


isnt good

guys

guys

sometimes red


isnt good

And sometimes it's the best color to play at the right time.

Which, sometimes, is all the time.

"60 percent of the time, it works EVERY time."

this card is... alright against sphinx's revelation, but it's straight terrible against Supreme Verdict, which will be one of the most played removal spells post rotation.

also it is important to note that if you cannot speculate on what is isn't good post rotation, you must also understand that you cannot speculate on whether or not your 4/4 haste mythic dragon is good as well. telling me that we cannot have some at least general picture of what cards are good going forward is a two-way street and if you're going to argue that this card is good, you immediately undermine any argument in favor of this card by using that as a defense against my points.

I can argue on the merits of this card because I have all the information I need to do so - the stats printed on
the card.

You can't argue what the meta will look like post rotation because you don't have all the information you need to do so - the complete card pool and popular deck archtypes.

What I can't do is argue how the card will stack up in an unknown meta and I don't believe I've tried to do that because I don't know - I've simply pointed out situations and spells that are currently common that support the argument that the card could be playable and even competitive.

but the stats aren't even that good.
5 turns to kill? boo.

this card is... alright against sphinx's revelation, but it's straight terrible against Supreme Verdict, which will be one of the most played removal spells post rotation.

98% of creatures don't survive Wrath effects so that's hardly damning. The dragon even has haste so at least you'll do damage before it dies.

I don't think this dragon is insane but it's definitely good. Remember how Jund would board in Malakir Bloodwitch against white decks? Pro-white is one of the best types of protection a creature can have.

"Dies to the board wipe that was likely played the turn before it landed after dealing combat damage" - that's kind of grasping at straws, isn't it?

I mean, traditionally one of the best ways for Aggro to mitigate the damage done by board wipes is to play large Hasty beaters the turn after.

also it is important to note that if you cannot speculate on what is isn't good post rotation, you must also understand that you cannot speculate on whether or not your 4/4 haste mythic dragon is good as well. telling me that we cannot have some at least general picture of what cards are good going forward is a two-way street and if you're going to argue that this card is good, you immediately undermine any argument in favor of this card by using that as a
defense against my points.

I can argue on the merits of this card because I have all the information I need to do so - the stats printed on the card.

You can't argue what the meta will look like post rotation because you don't have all the information you need to do so - the complete card pool and popular deck archtypes.

What I can't do is argue how the card will stack up in an unknown meta and I don't believe I've tried to do that because I don't know - I've simply pointed out situations and spells that are currently common that support the argument that the card could be playable and even competitive.

but the stats aren't even that good.
5 turns to kill? boo.

5 turns if they're at 20. If this is topping my curve I've most likely done some amount of damage already. I mean, I don't think I ever had to swing 4 times with Thundermaw to close out a game - once or twice was almost always more than enough.

come back and tell me this card is good when it's a bulk mythic.

also it is important to note that if you cannot speculate on what is isn't good post rotation, you must also understand that you cannot speculate on whether or not your 4/4 haste mythic dragon is good as well. telling me that we cannot have some at least general picture of what cards are good going forward
is a two-way street and if you're going to argue that this card is good, you immediately undermine any argument in favor of this card by using that as a defense against my points.

I can argue on the merits of this card because I have all the information I need to do so - the stats printed on the card.

You can't argue what the meta will look like post rotation because you don't have all the information you need to do so - the complete card pool and popular deck archtypes.

What I can't do is argue how the card will stack up in an unknown meta and I don't believe I've tried to do that because I don't know - I've simply pointed out situations and spells that are currently common that support the argument that the card could be playable and even competitive.

but the stats aren't even that good.
5 turns to kill? boo.

5 turns if they're at 20. If this is topping my curve I've most likely done some amount of damage already. I mean, I don'
t think I ever had to swing 4 times with Thundermaw to close out a game - once or twice was almost always more than enough.

it's just a guy. that's it. hellkite at least effected the board in a positive way when it came into play.

come back and tell me this card is good when it's a bulk mythic.

won't happen

As my friend Fenaris on Twitter said:

The plan needs 1) dragon, 2) a use for consistent bears, and 3) an over the top kill option.
@bargior @MattyStudios @NLi10 That's what I mean. The deck that uses this best will abuse the + and the 0. One or the other won't be enough.
@bargior @MattyStudios @NLi10 If you want it just to ramp to dragon, there's much more efficient and consistent methods.

redthirst, while i said a bunch of decks that could exist may exist, the cards in them still exist and are competing for deck space in standard after theros is out, so your logic doesn't stack up that way either. i listed a number of specific cards as comparators because they're good cards that currently see a lot of play both now and in an environment that is more limited than standard, because they're the best cards, not because deck archetypes exist around them.
like even if UW control doesn't exist, supreme verdict is still the best wrath effect currently printed and still is an answer to this card.
even if UWR doesn't exist, aurelia is still one of the best top-of-the-curve midrange creatures currently printed and is still likely to see some amount of play.
even if mono red doesn't exist, mizzium mortars is still one of the best multi-option removal spells currently printed and is still an answer to this card.
etc
etc etc.

arguing against me on grounds i wasn't arguing on doesn't make my points invalid.

I would add one consideration: Pro-White is not irrelevant as long as there continue to be white flying token strategies. Granted, Lingering Souls is leaving, but white is the most common source of flying chump blockers by a landslide. We've only seen a small portion of non-creature spells in one set, and this dragon will be around for 8 sets. Tmaw was dominant because he was unblockable the turn he came down...what will be the value of a hasty flyer that may remain unblockable?

If I were a betting man--clan affiliation or not--I would not go near your position with a 10-foot pole, Thrillho. The card is going to provide inevitability against too many strategies both directly and indirectly through its play in the format.

[quote="[url=viewtopic.php?p=96017#p96017:9f8wfx8h]Thrillho » Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:42 pm[/url:9f8wfx8h]":9f8wfx8h]redthirst, while i said a bunch of decks that could exist may exist, the cards in them still exist and are competing for deck space in standard after theros is out, so your logic doesn't stack up that way either. i listed a number of specific cards as comparators because they're good cards that currently see a lot of play both now and in an environment that is more limited than standard, because they're the best cards, not because deck archetypes exist around them.
like even if UW control doesn't exist, supreme verdict is still the best wrath effect currently printed and still is an answer to this card.
even if UWR doesn't exist, aurelia is still one of the best top-of-the-curve midrange creatures currently printed and is still likely to see some amount of play.
neven if mono red doesn't exist, mizzium mortars is still one of the best multi-option removal spells currently printed and is still an answer to this card.
etc etc etc.

arguing against me on grounds i wasn't arguing on doesn't make my points invalid.[/quote:9f8wfx8h]

The logic stacks up fine - you're arguing the card is garbage based on how it will perform in a made-up meta - I'm arguing that it's not garbage based on the stats on the card. Your argument is based on the unknown while mine is based on the known.

The rest of your post is just... I don't even know. You argue that Supreme Verdict answers this card like that's special or even a legitimate argument. Large Hasty beaters are an answer to board wipes - not the other way around.

You say that Aurelia will still see play like that's a deterrent even though this stacks up favorably against Aurelia in almost every way: it comes
out a turn sooner, is more resilient to removal, can block and kill Aurelia, and can swing past Aurelia. The only thing it doesn't do as well as Aurelia is race and that's a tie - 4 damage a turn starting turn 5 will get there the same turn as 6 damage a turn starting on turn 6 (I'm not counting other creatures since everyone arguing against Stormbreath wants to ignore the fact that it'll be played in a deck with other creatures too) - and on the off chance the Stormbreath player curves up to Monstrous mana, it can actually win that race either 1-2 turns sooner depending on # of cards in the opponent's hand.

You say that Mortars is an answer to this card, which I agree with - a Mortars will kill a Stormbreath Dragon assuming that it wasn't already used on turns 2-4 to remove another creature - but only after it's gotten an attack in. Cards that impact the game before dying to 1-for-1 removal are traditionally pretty good, though, just FYI.

you're acting like he's saying that Auerilia is the answer to this card, when i's not, it's just better than this in the decks that would play this.

but i'm not. i haven't even made up a meta, i've only mentioned that certain cards are more likely to get played because there's support for them than others (loxodon smiter versus orzhov charm, angel of serenity versus warleader's helix). you're just putting words in my mouth by saying that because i don't think warleader's helix will be as likely to be played because three color decks lose half of the support for their mana base and have to cope with burning earth that therefore something about the metagame.

i didn't even mention supreme verdict as an answer to this card because that's a dumb argument. maybe read a post, idk.

in a format where pretty much every creatures is 4 power or greater, one 4 power creature does the same thing the rest of them does, but with haste and flying.
Welcome to Theros.