Dies to Removal

Posted: **Sun Jul 14, 2013 5:14 am**

This aint going to stay at $30 is it ?

Posted: **Sun Jul 14, 2013 5:15 pm**

I don't think it is, but I don't know things

Posted: **Sun Jul 14, 2013 6:43 pm**

Savageborn hydra was at like $10-15 when it first started.

I guess al the casuals gotta scoop these cards up ASAP then it settles down to dirt

Posted: **Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:00 am**

This card is actually constructed playable, ladies and gentlemen.

Posted: **Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:00 am**

There is a reason SCG is sold out at that ridiculous presale price.

Posted: **Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:00 am**

Given most every deck has an out to this card, probably not.

Posted: **Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:39 am**

Decks usually have outs to every card... Don't use the "diestoremoval" argument here, surely you can see the irony.

Posted: **Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:39 am**

Most* every card

Posted: **Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:40 am**

Dies to fire

Posted: **Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:31 pm**

Decks usually have outs to every card... Don't use the "diestoremoval" argument here, surely you can see the irony.

So what about "Doesn't survive until next upkeep?" Is that a suitable roundabout?

No seriously though this card doesn't impact the board when it comes down so it probably won't see constructed play. We have so many good creatures already.

Posted: **Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:54 am**

when thraggy rotates what other cards are so good that competes with this?

Iunnoa fter testing with it today Ive been converted...

Posted: **Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:11 am**

when thraggy rotates what other cards are so good that competes with this?

Iunnoa fter testing with it today Ive been converted...

With Farseek leaving the format, probably some non-green beater. My bet is that it will be white and it will fly.

Posted: **Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:49 am**

Does "force your oppt to have removal or just bend over" count as "affecting the board"?

Posted: **Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:06 pm**

Decks usually have outs to every card... Don't use the "diestoremoval" argument here, surely you can see the irony.
So what about "Doesn't survive until next upkeep?" Is that a suitable roundabout?

No seriously though this card doesn't impact the board when it comes down so it probably won't see constructed play. We have so many good creatures already.

This.
Mizzium Mortars is one of the most played removal spells in RTR Block and is currently the Flametongue Test of cards in the format and going forward.

The reason the Hydra is probably (I emphasize
probably) a lot of hype is that we have infinite 5cc creatures that are all insane, many of them either survive/dodge most removal spells, and all of them do something immediately when they enter the battlefield (some do multiple things immediately). Being a big guy for 5 mana isn't a novel thing, and the Hydra happens to coexist with Doom Blade's standard return.

Hydra may be the most playable of Hydras printed since that one with Fading from Nemesis, but you also have to understand that the bar is set to almost ground level as none of those cards were remotely playable.

Posted: **Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:08 pm**

[quote="[url=viewtopic.php?p=80277#p80277:a5zy89vs]Alex » Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:11 pm[/url:a5zy89vs]":a5zy89vs][quote="[url=viewtopic.php?p=80237#p80237:a5zy89vs]Fate » Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:54 pm[/url:a5zy89vs]":a5zy89vs]when thraggy rotates what other cards are so good that competes with this?

Iunnoa fter testing with it today Ive been converted...[/quote:a5zy89vs]
With Farseek leaving the format, probably some non-green beater. My bet is that it will be white and it will fly.[/quote:a5zy89vs]
Ehhhhhh... Having a real Llanowar with no mana fixing with ramp ala Farseek/Rampant Growth/Explore leans more towards having green as your last stop on the accelerated giant game-changer train. Bear in mind that people just hard cast Angel of Serenity in block like it's not actually a thing.

Posted: **Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:11 pm**

meh, the mortars argument is fine, but without snapcaster to recurse all removal it I don't know how valid that stance is.

I mean, Archangel of Thrune is getting people excited and she dies to mortars too. And you DO have to drop through hoops to get her to have an effect when she comes down (have lifegain on the board, etc, will be harder post-blood artist I'd imagine).

You can jump through hoops to give this Hydra haste and have an immediate effect when he comes down too, but even without that its still effectively 1-turn clock to deal with. (If you let it swing once, you're losing, if its swings twice that's probably gg I think we can agree on that).

Posted: **Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:24 pm**

Does "force your oppt to have removal or just bend over" count as "affecting the board"?

No because there are other cards that do that better. This argument is only worthwhile when there is nothing better filling that role. (See: Baneslayer Angel.)

Posted: **Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:40 pm**

alex did you get my picture

Posted: **Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:08 pm**

meh, the mortars argument is fine, but without snapcaster to recurse all removal it I don't know how valid that stance is.

I mean, Archangel of Thrune is getting people excited and she dies to mortars too. And you DO have to drop through hoops to get her to have an effect when she comes down (have lifegain on the board, etc, will be harder post-blood artist I'd imagine).

You can jump through hoops to give this Hydra haste and have an immediate effect when he comes down too, but even without that its still effectively 1-turn clock to deal with. (If you let it swing once, you're losing, if its swings twice that's probably gg I think we can agree on that).

Archangel of Thune is also a card people are hyping that probably won't actually do anything,
though. It's bad for all the same reasons the Hydra is but for the benefit of triggering every time you gain life, which generally only happens in Standard presently through another 5-drop (Thragtusk), through a double-off-color 4-drop (Huntmaster), an unused mode of an on-color card (Azorius Charm), and Warleader's Helix. You also don't reap the benefits of the +1/+1 counters until the combat following the turn you attack, so it takes 7 turns before you finally get the full benefits of your "bomb."

Posted: **Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:06 pm**

thragtusk hasn't even rotated out of standard and they print two five drops worse than it but at mythic rarity and suddenly everyone's forgotten how absolutely insane thragtusk is.

by the time you cast, attack with, and reap the benefits of archangel of thune, you could have activated gavony township three times at the cost of not gaining 3 life or having an additional 3/4 flyer in play. given that to get the full effects of the archangel you need to have a lot of other creatures in play to get +1/+1 counters, and given that adding additional 5cc creatures understandably puts a damper on playing multiple creatures, it would make more sense to play more less expensive creatures with gavony township that will ultimately have a bigger effect on winning the game than one large, slow, 5-drop that, if unopposed, does what every unopposed 5-drop creature in the game tends to do.

Posted: **Fri Jul 19, 2013 12:41 am**

them's fighting words

Posted: **Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:11 am**

people just want to like this card so it makes the set seem better

Posted: **Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:22 am**

thragtusk hasn't even rotated out of standard and they print two five drops worse than it but at mythic rarity and suddenly everyone's forgotten how absolutely insane thragtusk is.

by the time you cast, attack with, and reap the benefits of archangel of thune, you could have activated gavony township three times at the cost of not gaining 3 life or having an additional 3/4 flyer in play. given that to get the full effects of the archangel you need to have a lot of other creatures in play to get +1/+1 counters, and given that adding additional 5cc creatures understandably puts a damper on playing multiple creatures, it would make more sense to play more less expensive creatures with gavony township that will ultimately have a bigger effect on winning the game than one
large, slow, 5-drop that, if unopposed, does what every unopposed 5-drop creature in the game tends to do.

Archangel of Thune is likely to see play in the slots where people were previously playing Angel of Serenity since it's easier to hard cast and the decks that aren't playing super-AoS shenanigans would rather just have a body on board. That being said, it's okay in Naya in place of one of the Hellkites, because having "another" Gavony Township is actually good real estate in that deck.

Otherwise it's pretty mediocre. But they might also be toning down creatures in Theros so who knows, it might be the next chase mythic. It really depends on what rotation gives us to work with. It's still certainly more playable than Kalonian Hydra, which is actively bad.

Posted: **Sat Jul 20, 2013 5:23 am**

Angel of thune and angel of serenity are completely different cards that do completely different things and have completely different mana costs and effects.

Posted: **Sat Jul 20, 2013 5:37 am**

[quote="[url=viewtopic.php?p=81194#p81194:12g9de34]Thrillho » Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:23 pm[/url:12g9de34]":12g9de34]Angel of thune and angel of serenity are completely different cards that do completely different things and have completely different mana costs and effects.[/quote:12g9de34]
Yep, and the decks that are playing AoS right now would rather have Archangel of Thune. They were playing AoS because it was something powerful to do with lots of mana, but it's a much slower way to win and it isn't a safe bet to even achieve that.

Decks like that get some insane mileage out of Gavony activations, and even if Archangel of Thune is just "Chump block your guy, gain life, anthem my dorks," that's [i:12g9de34]usually[/i:12g9de34] a pretty big game, especially if there's an actual Gavony in play or in hand for next turn.

Posted: **Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:41 pm**

People were playing Angel of Serenity because you could cast it for 4 mana while drawing cards and it completely shut your opponent out of the game while chaining infinitely with itself, Thragtusk, and other creatures the deck it was playing played.

Angel of Thune is a 3/4 flying creature that attacks and sometimes has a relevant effect if you have more than itself in play.

Those are completely dissimilar cards.

No one wants to pay 5 mana for "chump block anthem my guys." An entire archetype is built around "pay 4 mana you lose the game."