Dies to Removal

Website is messing up...

Sorry... Don't know WTF is up with this site... only half my SB plan shows up in a given post.

If the aim is to improve the Aggro match up I don't understand why are you now running Boros Charm over Magma Jet and Chains in the MD. Surely that makes you worse in G1 in the specific match up that the changes are designed to improve?

Even with the site messing up it's still all readable Johnny

It's trying to improve G1 vs control and G2+3 vs Aggro.

Without just skewing the MB completely for the control m/u.

You could move all the chains to the main, or all the charms.

I think making room for 3-4 Shocks is correct, I think 1 Assemble works since your running eight 1-drops. I'll writes some more comments tomorrow its currently 1:00 AM downunder.

@ Johnny - Got ya I didn't think your deck looked particularly weak to Control but if you felt that it was then the Charms make sense. I'd personally prefer 4 Jets and 1 Shock in the Main - not as good Vs Control but I think that's favourable anyway and better against Aggro G1 - with 2 more Shocks in the SB. I still prefer Crack to Charm but we've been over that one

I agree with MDU that 1 Assemble is fine with 8 1 drops.

I don't see why we are still playing boros charm. Now that we are talking about Shocks into the Main deck, shouldn't we discuss going back to PyroDragons... YP$ helps verse aggro and mono black. and still has just as good a matchup verse esper as big boros, possibly a better one verse UW.

I don't see why we are still playing boros charm. Now that we are talking about Shocks into the Main deck, shouldn't we discuss going back to PyroDragons... YP$ helps verse aggro and mono black. and still has just as good a matchup verse esper as big boros, possibly a better one verse UW.

I don't want shocks in the main at all. I expect the GP to be 50% control.

Boros charm often ends games. There is a reason all the well placing lists run 4x. They provide a lot of reach and the other modes are also relevant.

Boros charm often ends games. There is a reason all the well placing lists run 4x. They provide a lot of reach and the other modes are also relevant.

The well placing lists play a completely different roll. As a devotion deck, youu have to lay out threats early thus protecting them on t4 vs supreme verdict is important... we are winning these matchups with phoenixes and burn, not indestructibility.

I was referring to the Adrian Sullivan / Adam Jansen lists, not any flavor of devotion.

I am winning with haymakers in the form of dragons and charms, not phoenixes and burn. That's Walter White's territory.

Devotion R/w and Big Boros Sledgehammer are two different decks. Same/similar creature make up but support cards and gameplan differ. It has been brought up numerous times but it seems people keep forgetting.

R/w devotion w/Dragons: jam board with devotion count. Kill with big Fanatic or monstrous Dragon through Nykthos. Early pressure capable but not consistent.

Big Boros (3 or 4 Dragons, no YP$): apply early pressure through hasted threats. Close out game with dragon. Boros Charm is utility. Burn, damage, or protection.

PyroBrews: use underpowered creatures and burn to create incremental advantage through card interactions.

Hmm... Random idea at 3am cause why not.

What do y'all think of running assemble mainboard? If it resolves, it's pretty damn tough to stop. Though it does get hit by dsphere sadly, unlike dragon.

As far as running charms and shocks and all that, I think one ing that matter more is if you're on 3 dragon or 4. 3 dragon has more 1 drops and tries to go quicker. In that list, charms and other forms of burn are better because they can help you close out a game, since your late game is slightly weaker.
In 4 dragon, more mortars and shocks to remove opposing creatures is better then in 3 dragon, since you have that slightly better late game.

The difference isn't huge, but it is definitely a thing. Going more aggressive with the mainboard in a 3 dragon list is just more natural for it. Less chains and mortars, more charms and burn.
4 dragon lists feel better with more chains and mortars.

It's only a difference of
a few slots in either direction though, so in reality it proly doesn't matter as much as I make it out to, and I'm just a nutter, but oh well



Edit: the list I'm sorta staring at thinking about:
[deck]Lands 24
3x Mutavault
4x Sacred Foundry
4x Temple of Triumph
2x Boros Guildgate
11x Mountain

Creatures 19
4x Firedrinker Satyr
4x Rakdos Cackler
4x Ash Zealot
4x Chandra's Phoenix
3x Stormbreath Dragon

Spells 15
4x Lightning Strike
4x Magma Jet
3x Chained to the Rocks
2x Boros Charm
2x Mizzium Mortars

Thighs 2
2x Chandra, Pyromaster

Sideboard 15
3x Boros Reckoner
2x Mizzium Mortars
1x Chained to the Rocks
1x Assemble the Legion
2x Flames of The Firebrand
1x Boros Charm
2x Last Breath
3x Skullcrack
[/deck]

@ NBW: Thank you for putting that soi eloquently.

@ Raida: This has been brought up a few times in the last week and I hope to answer it once and for all. Assemble is a sideboard card. It is on;only good against one of the 4 top tier decks, and therefore belongs in the side. It has no impact on T5, does nothing to advance your clock, or put pressure on the opponent. VS U/x it does absolutely nothing, because they have Jace.

As far as three / four dragon builds go, I think it is important to point out that only MDU and people running his build are playing with less than 8 one drops. Only MDU and people running his build are running less than 4 dragons in the 75 as well. The four high placing decks (the ones in the primer) are all running the full compliment of 1 drops and dragons.

Correct the successful SCG list won without Chains, Jets and limited mortars MD.

While I encourage an aggressive control list to combat Ux Devotion, Gx Devotion and Rx Devotion while still beating Black and Control, I'm not sure if anyone on DtR are still running the SCG list though.

Also in regard to Assemble, I think it is actually really strong against everything except Jace.decks - top deck mode is common place, resolving usually means you win (as long as your not so far behind).

To be honest in my 100 people PTQ and GP Vienna I didnt see any big boros sledgehammer builds. Only Devotion Boros/Gruul decks. That was the same in SCG Invi.

I dont know if results made by 1 player only (2 of them to be honest) and 1 random person on PTQ who did good but now awsome is enough for me. Boros charm is extremely narrow card, doesnt serve a lot of purpose in this deck. But if you want to play it, go for it, just post result for us, not believers please

Boros Charm isn't narrow, it can lead to huge blowouts - deal damage and allow your creatures to deal with cards they normally couldn't (hexproof creatures + fatty), should it take the place of a potential removal (like Jet) is another thing altogether.

To be honest in my 100 people PTQ and GP Vienna I didnt see any big boros sledgehammer builds. Only Devotion Boros/Gruul decks. That was the same in SCG Invi.

I dont know if results made by 1 player only (2 of them to be honest) and 1 random person on PTQ who did good but now awsome is enough for me. Boros charm is extremely narrow card, doesnt serve a lot of purpose in this deck. But if you want to play it, go for it, just post result for us, not believers please

Narrow? It has three relevant modes.

Yeah where Double strike dont give any value in this deck, indestructible is only good vs uw/esper (and they often handle threats 1 at a time with exile and bounce)

Yeah where Double strike dont give any value in this deck, indestructible is only good vs uw/esper (and they often handle threats 1 at a time with exile and bounce)

Double Strike is relevant against hexproof. Indestructible is good VS U/W, Esper and Black (75% of the top tier decks).

I honestly like just playing 4 boros charms. Indistructible's fine, but when you draw multiple charms, that's a LOT of reach and your opponents just end up dead sometimes.

I honestly like just playing 4 boros charms. Indistructible's fine, but when you draw multiple charms, that's a LOT of reach and your opponents just end up dead sometimes.

Exactly. Chandra Ultimate for 12 is pretty good too.

I like charm just fine, I just kinda agree with MDU on the whole 'should it take the place of removal' thing...

I think that's actually an important thing to discuss. Where are we on removal or burn?
What's more important to run mb or sb in the deck? Is it better to have charms, strikes, and jets main, or should we go it removal like chains and mortars?

There's gonna be a balance, of course, but I think we need to figure out where on the line we wanna be.

Stuff like lightning strike, magma jet, and flames of the firebrand can be both burn and removal. Then you have mortars and chain which are purely removal, and charm which is only burn (for the purposes of burn vs removal. It has other utility, but it isn't removal, which is what I meant by only burn e.e)

I personally like the idea of more control, since I am a big fan of 3 or 4 chains main and then some number of mortars, but I think the charm route is
perfectly valid too.

I think that spell lists heavily emphasizing one direction or the other would look like: (gonna put 15 spells in each just as a baseline)
Burn: 4 Strike, 4 Charm, 4 Jet, 3 Chain
Control: 4 Strike, 4 Chain, 3 Mortars, 2 Flames, 2 Charm

Neither of those are as silly 1-sided as they could be, but are more like what a reasonable list favoring one direction would look like.


Tl;dr version: I like the idea of charms main, but I am afraid of ruining the amount of control, because both chains and mortars are so very relevant right now, with dd's, mow's, bb's, and sbd's running rampant.

Done testing for the GP.

I'm playing this 75:

[deck]Lands (25)
4 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
2 Boros Guildgate
11 Mountain

Creatures (20)
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Stormbreath Dragon

Spells (15)
4 Lightning Strike
3 Magma Jet
2 Chained to the Rocks
2 Boros Charm
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Sideboard (15)
3 Boros Reckoner
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 Assemble the Legion
2 Chained to the Rocks
2 Boros Charm
2 Last Breath
3 Shock[/deck]

Still considering how to split the Chains / Charms / Mortars between the MB / SB. Thoughts appreciated.

I would up MJ into 4x since I recall you complaining about Mana issues (both flood and screw) Scry goes along way in fixing that (perhaps cutting one Boros Charm).

I'll also suggest 3x Chains and 1x Mortar split if you can't find room (Ux is still the best deck in the format so you need to answer them) BBV and SBD can at least be killed by 2 burns while MoW is only kill able via chains.

SB is preference based I'll argue you need SC but you don't like it so its up to you.

I would up MJ into 4x since I recall you complaining about Mana issues (both flood and screw) Scry goes along way in fixing that (perhaps cutting one Boros Charm).

I'll also suggest 3x Chains and 1x Mortar split if you can't find room (Ux is still the best deck in the format so you need to answer them) BBV and SBD can at least be killed by 2 burns while MoW is only kill able via chains.

SB is preference based I'll argue you need SC but you don't like it so its up to you.

Only way I can think to shoehorn it in is:

[deck]Lands (25)
4 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
2 Boros Guildgate
11 Mountain

Creatures (20)
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Stormbreath
Dragon

Spells (15)
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
3 Chained to the Rocks
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Sideboard (15)
3 Boros Reckoner
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 Assemble the Legion
1 Chained to the Rocks
3 Boros Charm
2 Last Breath
3 Shock[/deck]

Maybe that's better?

Also, fucking UW / Esper are siding Fiendslayer Paladin in. Should we be doing somwthing about that, or just ignoring it?

Also, fucking UW / Esper are siding Fiendslayer Paladin in. Should we be doing somwthing about that, or just ignoring it?

Chains kills him so just keep one or two for that MU (Boros Charm works as well), btw I think your deck looks perfect now.

Also, fucking UW / Esper are siding Fiendslayer Paladin in. Should we be doing somwthing about that, or just ignoring it?

Last Breath, right? Other than that and CttR, what is there that's acceptable in the 75?

Also, fucking UW / Esper are siding Fiendslayer Paladin in. Should we be doing somwthing about that, or just ignoring it?

I'd probably leave in 2 chained vs UW and cut mortars and the 3rd. Verse esper id cut chained and leave in 2 mortars

@Zooligan - I would be terrified of giving my UW opponent 4 life. I think you have to just hope you hit a chained or just leave ash zealot back to block

3 shock seems like overkill. are you really expecting to face that many WW decks at a GP? Skullcrack just seems infinitely better at a GP where you can expect atleast 25% to be control

I would expect WW in GP for the first few rounds, 3x Shocks would do wonders for that MU (more then Fotf since Boros Charm or BtE blows you out) shock also beats Ux so that's good as well.

SC is really only for Black since it usually does 5-7 damage against them, against a competent control player it isn't often that you'll be able to counter a huge lifegain swing. I personal like SC and wouldn't play a match without them, but you don't NEED it, you'll certain do however NEED Boros Charm against BGx and Rx Devo though I'm not sure they're as common.

I would up MJ into 4x since I recall you complaining about Mana issues (both flood and screw) Scry goes along way in fixing that (perhaps cutting one Boros Charm).

I'll also suggest 3x Chains and 1x Mortar split if you can't find room (Ux is still the best deck in the format so you need to answer them) BBV and SBD can at least be killed by 2 burns while MoW is only kill able via chains.

SB is preference based I'll argue you need SC but you don't like it so its up to you.

Only way I can think to shoehorn it in is:

[deck]Lands (25)
4 Mutavault
4 Sacred
Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
2 Boros Guildgate
11 Mountain

Creatures (20)
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Stormbreath Dragon

Spells (15)
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
3 Chained to the Rocks
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Sideboard (15)
3 Boros Reckoner
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 Assemble the Legion
1 Chained to the Rocks
3 Boros Charm
2 Last Breath
3 Shock[/deck]

Maybe that's better?

Looks really solid. this version gets my vote Johnny

Current 75, tweaked to have a better game against Aggro.

[deck]Boros LaZerBurn[/deck]
Lands 24
1 Boros Guildgate
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Mutavault
11 Mountains

Creatures 19
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix
3 Stormbreath Dragon

Spells 11
2 Mizzium Mortars
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
1 Shock
1 Flames Of The Firebrand

Enchantments 4
3 Chained to the Rocks

Thighs 2
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Sideboard 15
1 Assemble The Legion
2 Shock
1 Flames Of The Firebrand
1 Chained to the Rocks
2 Last Breath
3 Boros Reckoner
2 Mizzium Mortars
3 Skullcrack
[/deck]

Updated SB Plan

Not sure if i missed it in the discussion but whatever happened to running legions initiative? It could be used mb in place of charms for almost the same effect, though while charm is 4 up front damage the power boost to our red creatures would represent more potential damage over the course of the game. It also protects our creatures from both sweepers and bounce effects. Even without the ability to grant double strike the situations where its truely needed are few andfar between.

Not sure if i missed it in the discussion but whatever happened to running legions initiative? It could be used mb in place of charms for almost the same effect, though while charm is 4 up front damage the power boost to our red creatures would represent more potential damage over the course of the game. It also protects our creatures from both sweepers and bounce effects. Even without the ability to grant double strike the situations where its truely needed are few andfar between.

I still run 1x LI, I like giving all my creatures (beside vaults) protection to Last Breath and turn all my cards into a nightmare for #/3 dudes - some people prefer consistency
though so running many 1x or 2x irks them to no end.

To be honest in my 100 people PTQ and GP Vienna I didnt see any big boros sledgehammer builds. Only Devotion Boros/Gruul decks. That was the same in SCG Invi.

I dont know if results made by 1 player only (2 of them to be honest) and 1 random person on PTQ who did good but now awsome is enough for me. Boros charm is extremely narrow card, doesnt serve a lot of purpose in this deck. But if you want to play it, go for it, just post result for us, not believers please

Boros charm does everything we want in an aggro deck. Damage and removal protection for our threats. Remember G1 should always be about maximizing our gameplan. G2 & g3 is when we bring in the hate.