Primer: R/w/x Aggro

[Lightning_Dolt]

Which matchups is wear // tear good? It seems good vs B/x , U/x, UW and Esper I think. Maybe worth a 1 of? I'm not sure. It would sometimes just be a dead card. B/x isn't playing whip in most lists.

[Zooligan]

Add mono G and G/W to that list. Someone was saying White Weenie is tough if they resolve Spear, so maybe add that to the list as well.

All the mono B players in my LGS run Whip.

[Purp]

I honestly couldn't tell you how shitty it felt to lose to whip to matches in a row, so I am ditching boros charms.

[Lightning_Dolt]

None of the B/x Modo lists were running whip when I checked. MDU, care to chime in? I do get it being good vs Armadillo Cloak and Bow of Nylea though.

I agree it is nearly impossible to win through Whip. Maybe Wear // Tear is important.

[Zooligan]

I did notice on the SCG open lists that the mono B lists were sans Whip. Honestly I'm not sure if my local paper guys are behind the curve or ahead of it in this instance. I'm seeing mono G rise, Esper hold steady running 2-3 BBoV and Aetherling, and mono B staying the course. Enchantment hate seems pretty useful in multiple MU, and the artifact hate side might come inhandy sometime as well.

[magicdownunder]

None of the B/x Modo lists were running whip when I checked. MDU, care to chime in? I do get it being good vs Armadillo Cloak and Bow of Nylea though.

I agree it is nearly impossible to win through Whip. Maybe Wear // Tear is important.

1-2x Whip is quite common on MODO, I except the number to increase with Rx Devotion decks picking a few placings.

I don't like Wear // Tear and fought through Whips quite often, but with this type of deck with Assembles or Dragons it doesn't hurt to run them at all.

[Lightning_Dolt]

So disregard it?

[magicdownunder]

I do, but as a result if they gets nuts I'll lose.

Its like how Z doesn't run Mortars or Chains vs Esper or UW, if control gets the nuts he'll take the loss. I value "plan B" most of the time so I won't say Wear // Tear or Glare of Heresy is a bad choice.

[LP, of the Fires]

5-4 drop after starting 3-0.

2-1 vs. Esper(I got lucky)
2-1 vs. Selesnya(only lost game 1 to 3 dragons in hand on 4 lands)
2-0 vs. Vundo's friend playig walter white
0-2 vs. mono-blue. Both games where very close, wasn't meant to be.
1-2 vs. some weird boros deck. I got a game loss for presenting an illegal deck. I was distracted when I presented and didn't pile cause I was looking for my pen, then a judge handed me my mutavault and asked me if I had presented. The round hadn't technically started yet so he let it slide, but my opponent appealed to the head judge and it was overturned into a game loss. I won game 1 handily, but game 2, was close and he drew more reckoners then myself.
2-0 vs. UW control. At the end of round 5, I ordered food as the round was starting, so I was in a rush to finish my match. Luckily I nut drew both games.
1-2 vs. Mono-blue. Game 1, I misplayed. I was mostly dead on board, but I
should have killed a judges familiar EOT instead of a spector since my only out was overload mortars when I had six lands. I of course drew mortars, overloaded it, and had it countered. Game 2, I killed everything he played for 10 turns and killed him with a phoenix. Game 3, I lost to no white source with 1 chained and 2 last breaths in hand =(
2-0 vs. monoblack. Assemble the legion is broken. Game 2, his board state was erebos, triple desecration demon, nightveil spector, and something else. Assemble on 7 counters doesn't care.
1-2 drop vs. mono-black. I don't remember the games outside of not drawing any removal game 3 for demons and losing to double demon, double merchant draw.

But Vundo finished 8-2, so the weekend wasn't a flop and I almost every platinum pro over the course of the weekend.

[magicdownunder]

Standard Elimination Event 6466556 - Running:

[deck=MDU's Boros Lazerburn]Lands 24
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Mutavault
12 Mountains

Creatures 19
1 Soldier of the Pantheon
3 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix
3 Stormbreath Dragon

Spells 11
2 Mizzium Mortars
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
1 Flames Of The Firebrand

Enchantments 4
1 Legion's Initiative
3 Chained to the Rocks

Thighs 2
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Sideboard 15
1 Assemble The Legion
1 Flames Of The Firebrand
1 Chained to the Rocks
2 Last Breath
3 Boros Reckoner
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Boros Charm
3 Skullcrack[/deck]
Standard Elimination R1: Boros Lazerburn vs Black Devotion (Event 6466556)
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kowqNmsk2DY&
amp;list=PLBO2Co_8Gb6x7B1bKjJBF1rzhD2_474DG&index=2]Standard Elimination R2: Boros Lazerburn vs Junk (Event 6466556)[/url]
Standard Elimination R3: Boros Lazerburn vs Esper Control (Event 6466556)

The deck works, has more one drops and has less fear in drawing too many dragons with the lands to cast them.

[LP, of the Fires]

FWIW, decided to make my UW matchup better since I expected it to be a big deck(I would have played it if we had the cards for 3 UW decks) and went -1 boros charm, -1 chained from the main for +2 boros charm. Despite my results, I liked the change.

There where lots of interesting things at the Open. Lots of UW. Buddy played at least 2 mirror matches which despite always going to time seems like the best match ever. A fair amount of blue and black, though I didn't see a ton of it. Lots of pro players, though I don't know if they where all in the open or split between teh invitational. I know I saw kibler, and Ben stark among others playing.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Standard Elimination Event 6466556 - Running:

[deck=MDU's Boros Lazerburn]Lands 24
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Mutavault
12 Mountains

Creatures 19
1 Soldier of the Pantheon
3 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix
3 Stormbreath Dragon

Spells 11
2 Mizzium Mortars
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
1 Flames Of The Firebrand

Enchantments 4
1 Legion's Initiative
3 Chained to the Rocks

Thighs 2
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Sideboard 15
1 Assemble The Legion
1 Flames Of The Firebrand
1 Chained to the Rocks
2 Last Breath
3 Boros Reckoner
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Boros Charm
3 Skullcrack[/deck]
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YfjP5Eu ... JBF1rzhD2_
474DG&index=3]Standard Elimination R1: Boros Lazerburn vs Black Devotion (Event 6466556)[/url]
Standard Elimination R2: Boros Lazerburn vs Junk (Event 6466556)
Standard Elimination R3: Boros Lazerburn vs Esper Control (Event 6466556)

The deck works, has more one drops and has less fear in drawing too many dragons with the lands to cast them.

Why are you playing an off colour one drop? And three satyrs?

[Lightning_Dolt]

5-4 drop after starting 3-0.

2-1 vs. Esper(I got lucky)
2-1 vs. Selesnya(only lost game 1 to 3 dragons in hand on 4 lands)
2-0 vs. Vundo's friend playig walter white
0-2 vs. mono-blue. Both games where very close, wasn't meant to be.
1-2 vs. some weird boros deck. I got a game loss for presenting an illegal deck. I was distracted when I presented and didn't pile cause I was looking for my pen, then a judge handed me my mutavault and asked me if I had presented. The round hadn't technically started yet so he let it slide, but my opponent appealed to the head judge and it was overturned into a game loss. I won game 1 handily, but game 2, was close and he drew more reckoners then myself.
2-0 vs. UW control. At the end of round 5, I ordered
food as the round was starting, so I was in a rush to finish my match. Luckily I nut drew both games.
1-2 vs. Mono-blue. Game 1, I misplayed. I was mostly dead on board, but I should have killed a judges familiar EOT instead of a spector since my only out was overload mortars when I had six lands. I of course drew mortars, overloaded it, and had it countered. Game 2, I killed everything he played for 10 turns and killed him with a phoenix. Game 3, I lost to no white source with 1 chained and 2 last breaths in hand =(
2-0 vs. monoblack. Assemble the legion is broken. Game 2, his board state was erebos, triple desecration demon, nightveil spector, and something else. Assemble on 7 counters doesn't care.
1-2 drop vs. mono-black. I don't remember the games outside of not drawing any removal game 3 for demons and losing to double demon, double merchant draw.

But Vundo finished 8-2, so the weekend wasn't a flop and I almost every platinum pro over the course of the weekend.

Thanks for
the report. Sorry about the bad luck.

[magicdownunder]

Its just a belated video report, we already discussed how bad of a choice it was and I already mention that its a weaker variant. The future videos will be back on my normal list except with the 1/1 split with the Gate and Scry land (though the Scry land has failed me twice now so I'm not sure I want to keep it).

[Lightning_Dolt]

Its just a belated video report, we already discussed how bad of a choice it was and I already mention that its a weaker variant. The future videos will be back on my normal list except with the 1/1 split with the Gate and Scry land (though the Scry land has failed me twice now so I'm not sure I want to keep it).

Oh ok. I thought this was you going back to it.

[magicdownunder]

Its just a belated video report, we already discussed how bad of a choice it was and I already mention that its a weaker variant. The future videos will be back on my normal list except with the 1/1 split with the Gate and Scry land (though the Scry land has failed me twice now so I'm not sure I want to keep it).

Oh ok. I thought this was you going back to it.

Nope, if I was to run it again I would copy Lazerburn MD 60/60.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Its just a belated video report, we already discussed how bad of a choice it was and I already mention that its a weaker variant. The future videos will be back on my normal list except with the 1/1 split with the Gate and Scry land (though the Scry land has failed me twice now so I'm not sure I want to keep it).

Oh ok. I thought this was you going back to it.

Nope, if I was
to run it again I would copy Lazerburn MD 60/60.

I prefer the extra land and dragon personally. I played it a little bit before the testing day, and then had a terrible go with it there. I admit I am superstitious and I think it upset a kind of balance for me.

[zemanjaski]

I do, but as a result if they gets nuts I'll lose.

Its like how Z doesn't run Mortars or Chains vs Esper or UW, if control gets the nuts he'll take the loss. I value "plan B" most of the time so I won't say Wear // Tear or Glare of Heresy is a bad choice.

I believe it is always wrong to sideboard reactively in a red deck

[Zooligan]

I believe it is always wrong to sideboard reactively in a red deck

Could you elaborate on the difference? Maybe some examples?

[Purp]

I believe it is always wrong to sideboard reactively in a red deck

Could you elaborate on the difference? Maybe some examples?

Mizzium Mortars vs Blood Baron in Esper. A red nut draw will win before Baron is a factor.

[Tyrael]

I assume this is only true if you're the beatdown?

[LaZerBurn]

I do, but as a result if they gets nuts I'll lose.

Its like how Z doesn't run Mortars or Chains vs Esper or UW, if control gets the nuts he'll take the loss. I value "plan B" most of the time so I won't say Wear // Tear or Glare of Heresy is a bad choice.

I believe it is always wrong to sideboard reactively in a red deck

I'd love to hear more on this - maybe a full article on SBing strategy/philosophy for Red decks?

[RaidaTheBlade]

So, given the current metagame situation (back to a reasonable sort of balance for the most part), which version do y'all think is more suitable?
The 4 dragon 25 land version, or the 3 dragon 24 land version?

[LaZerBurn]

So, given the current metagame situation (back to a reasonable sort of balance for the most part), which version do y'all think is more suitable?
The 4 dragon 25 land version, or the 3 dragon 24 land version?

Both are good against the field, choose the one that fits your play style better. I obviously prefer the 3/24 build, MDU and Johnny prefer the 4/25.

[magicdownunder]

I do, but as a result if they gets nuts I'll lose.

Its like how Z doesn't run Mortars or Chains vs Esper or UW, if control gets the nuts he'll take the loss. I value "plan B" most of the time so I won't say Wear // Tear or Glare of Heresy is a bad choice.

I believe it is always wrong to sideboard reactively in a red deck

I'd love to hear more on this - maybe a full article on SBing
strategy/philosophy for Red decks?

That would be hard to write, but Z view point is pretty much: you should win before dropping a vampire matters with the red deck, so diluting your list with non-aggressive spells makes your deck slower therefore its bad. I share that view when its comes to Wear // Tear vs Whips, mainly because we're running Chains and fliers - I don't believe we're often at the point when whips closes the game (heck I won after a T4 whip into Gary). That said I'm still willing to bring in 1x Mortar or 1x Chains vs UW or Esper since I can rarely kill them before they drop a monster (and due to the fact I have nothing better to bring...).

[Lightning_Dolt]

Depends on the deck. The junk whip decks and the B/r whip decks are auto losses if they don't mana screw.

I am generally in the "win before it becomes relevant" camp, but aggro has slowed (due to scry lands) to the point where we can't kill consistently before they stabilize. I do not think it is correct to ignore BBoV.

[zemanjaski]

I do, but as a result if they gets nuts I'll lose.

Its like how Z doesn't run Mortars or Chains vs Esper or UW, if control gets the nuts he'll take the loss. I value "plan B" most of the time so I won't say Wear // Tear or Glare of Heresy is a bad choice.

I believe it is always wrong to sideboard reactively in a red deck

I'd love to hear more on this - maybe a full article on SBing
strategy/philosophy for Red decks?

I have written heaps on sideboarding somewhere, maybe it is in the primer or somewhere else? But I have done this topic too many times, it is too simple for me to keep going over. At its simplest, red aggro decks are like combo decks and you can only take out so many cards that advance your game plan for cards that ONLY react to an opponent before your deck ceases to function. That is why I stress on learning to play around or through cards, rather than leaning on the crutch of "must draw sideboard cards".

I believe it is always wrong to sideboard reactively in a red deck

Could you elaborate on the
difference? Maybe some examples?

Proactive cards advance your game plan; they kill the opponent. Examples include: burn (but not terrors), threatens. They need to be good in most boardstates.
Reactive cards counter your opponent's strategy only; they ONLY do something in a specific boardstate that you bring them in for. EG: artifact destruction against Whip of Erobos; completely blank unless they have the whip; and whip isn't relevant in many boardstates.

Now obviously a card like Skullcrack that can do both is pretty nice, but if you're playing the beat down, by necessity you can't bring in too many reactive cards, because it dilutes your draw too much.

I assume this is only true if you're the beatdown?

Correct!

If someone is telling me that Blood Baron is a relevant card, then there are so many
ways to deal with it that already: Skullcrack, killing your own creatures when burn when he blocks, falters, evasion etc. You're losing when he hits you two or more times, and if that is happening, there are issues outside of whether or not you drew your narrow reactive sideboard card that is completely blank except in a very specific boardstate (must have it the turn they tap out to cast it).

@ JS: disagree, but I would prefer to leave it at that. I am fired up enough at the moment and I don't like fighting with one of the people I really like and respect.

[Zooligan]

Proactive cards advance your game plan; they kill the opponent. Examples include: burn (but not terrors), threatens. They need to be good in most boardstates.
Reactive cards counter your opponent's strategy only; they ONLY do something in a specific boardstate that you bring them in for. EG: artifact destruction against Whip of Erobos; completely blank unless they have the whip; and whip isn't relevant in many boardstates.

Now obviously a card like Skullcrack that can do both is pretty nice, but if you're playing the beat down, by necessity you can't bring in too many reactive cards, because it dilutes your draw too much.

Ok, I see where you're coming from. How does that change when you are not playing the beatdown role and are by
definition being reactive and controlling?

[zemanjaski]

I have already written an article on that.

viewtopic.php?f=108&t=1912

[Zooligan]

Wow. How'd I miss that article? That's good stuff James!

[Lightning_Dolt]

@ Z

I'm fine with agreeing to disagree. If this deck was capible of a T4 kill or didn't rely nearly entirely on creature based damage I would agree with you.

In Shards / Zen standard, my strategy for Baneslayer was just win before they can cast it. Those were better, over powered times.

[magicdownunder]

[deck=MDU's Boros Aggro]Lands 25
1 Boros Guildgate
1 Temple of Silence
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Mutavault
11 Mountains

Creatures 19
1 Boros Reckoner
2 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Stormbreath Dragon

Spells 10
2 Mizzium Mortars
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike

Enchantments 04
1 Legion's Initiative
3 Chained to the Rocks

Planeswalker 02
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Sideboard 15
1 Flames of the Firebrand
1 Chained to the Rocks
2 Last Breath
2 Boros Charm
2 Boros Reckoner
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Assemble the Legion
3 Skullcrack[/deck]
I have four SE to share, MOCS1 turned out to be a sham just like MOCS12 (Queued MOCS?? WTF wizards, twice in a row even...) so my 35 QPs are wasted - thus killing my motivation for competitive magic (for the time being) I may take a break until MOCS2 starts (Jan 4th) or just play Modern/Pauper - anyhow here is the
first SE:

Standard Elimination Report (6472330)
Standard Elimination R1: Boros Aggro vs Junk (Event 6472330)
Standard Elimination R2: Boros Aggro vs Ux Devotion (Event 6472330)
Standard Elimination R3: Split

I may make a video running through my SB guide with explanation later (if anyone is interested in that).

[Lightning_Dolt]

I don't understand. What's going on with the mocs?

[ibejaemes]

Damn, that really sucks to hear MDU. :C

Went 2-2 tonight with your Boros Legions list (Got my legion's initiative in the mail today, so I had to try it out), couldn't get the last burn against my friend's BWR midrange in R1 and land screwed game 2. 0-1
I don't remember how I sideboarded, but I think it was pretty bad lol. I think I took out the dragons and guildgates for extra burn, but I don't remember exactly.

R2, matched up against a friend's GWR, blew him up game 1 and game 2 flooded, game 3 had a decent defensive hand after a mulligan (2 reckoners, 2 chandra's phoenix, 1 mountain, 1 temple I think) but he had a really nuts draw. 0-2
I believe I sideboarded in +2 Reckoners +2 Boros Charms +1 Chains +2 Mortars, took out -2 Satyr -4 Cackler -1 Ash I believe.. Tried to play control, but I think I should've stuck with my 1 drops.

Game 3 and 4 were pretty much byes, but still lost a game on the draw to both.
Black home-brew and a BR aggro. 2-2
Not really sure what to sideboard in against BWR and GWR, though I've beaten the GWR deck the past couple of weeks with the Pyro Dragons deck. Never beat my friend's BWR though in a sanctioned match.

I need more practice, a lot more practice :C

[magicdownunder]

I don't understand. What's going on with the mocs?

Usually its large event with about 400+ invites only people all getting get prizes and super rare mocs only promo art cards (which even as a horrible common fetches for $50+).

Since MOCS12 its been a queue mocs where they pretty much give out the mocs promo art cards to anyone who places 1-4 in a 8-Man queue (entry fee of 15 QPs) which you can run over and over... driving down prices and skill levels (you go from Owen, LSV level into common Joe).

[Lightning_Dolt]

I don't understand. What's going on with the mocs?

Usually its large event with about 400+ invites only people all getting get prizes and super rare mocs only promo art cards (which even as a horrible common fetches for $50+).

Since MOCS12 its been a queue mocs where they pretty much give out the mocs promo art cards to anyone who places 1-4 in a 8-Man queue (entry fee of 15 QPs) which you can run over and over... driing down prices and skill levels (you go from Owen, LSV level into common Joe).

Isn't that good for you?

[magicdownunder]

Isn't that good for you?

off-topic rant:

Nope, my favorite part of each month is usual to play in a large scale mocs collect foil alt art cards and selling them for stupid amounts (getting a chance to play "pro" more often is nice as well - since we're all gathered in one large event).

With the current set-up the cards will flood the market and the value will shoot down and since the player pool is much smaller and random it feels less epic and fun.

To sum it up I need my carrot or I'm not happy (yes, playing for free and earning extra money isn't good enough).

on-topic:

Is 4x Shock or 3x AotG needed to win the Small Aggro MU? Are we ok with the the current odds? I think its still in our favor slightly mainly
because most people who play aggro are just bad but in terms of the cards its almost 50/50.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Isn't that good for you?

off-topic rant:

Nope, my favorite part of each month is usual to play in a large scale mocs collect foil alt art cards and selling them for stupid amounts (getting a chance to play "pro" more often is nice as well - since we're all gathered in one large event).

With the current set-up the cards will flood the market and the value will shoot down and since the player pool is much smaller and random it feels less epic and fun.

To sum it up I need my carrot or I'm not happy (yes, playing for free and earning extra money isn't
good enough).

on-topic:

Is 4x Shock or 3x AotG needed to win the Small Aggro MU? Are we ok with the the current odds? I think its still in our favor slightly mainly because most people who play aggro are just bad but in terms of the cards its almost 50/50.

Ok, I understand about the MOCS.

As far as Shock goes, the original lists had shock in the board, but what would you take out?

[LaZerBurn]

Isn't that good for you?

off-topic rant:

Nope, my favorite part of each month is usual to play in a large scale mocs collect foil alt art cards and selling them for stupid amounts (getting a chance to play "pro" more often is nice as well - since we're all gathered in one large event).

With the current set-up the cards will flood the market and the value will shoot down and since the player pool is much smaller and random it feels less epic and fun.

To sum it up I need my carrot or I'm not happy (yes, playing for free and earning extra money isn't good
enough).

on-topic:

Is 4x Shock or 3x AotG needed to win the Small Aggro MU? Are we ok with the the current odds? I think its still in our favor slightly mainly because most people who play aggro are just bad but in terms of the cards its almost 50/50.

Off topic - I can understand that though I'm not at that point myself yet. Hopefully MOCS will be back to normal before too long and I'll get enough DE in to qualify too

On topic - I agree with your thinking. If we want to increase the odds then yes we need Shock or possibly even Anger. I favour Shock as it is more flexible (more castable allowing for a blocker and removal, goes to the dome, recurs Phoenix, synergy with Ashley) and gives us a T1 answer to Aggro. I've currently got 1 FotF main and 2 in my SB but you have me thinking about swapping my MD LI for a Shock and one SB FotF for another now. I think it would help against Aggro without
significantly weakening any other match ups. Decisions, decisions

[Lightning_Dolt]

How about this?

[deck]Lands (25)
4x Mutavault
4x Sacred Foundry
4x Temple of Triumph
2x Boros Guildgate
11x Mountain

Creatures (20)
4x Firedrinker Satyr
4x Rakdos Cackler
4x Ash Zealot
4x Chandra's Phoenix
4x Stormbreath Dragon

Spells (15)
4x Lightning Strike
3x Magma Jet
2x Chained to the Rocks
2x Boros Charm
2x Mizzium Mortars
2x Chandra, Pyromaster

Sideboard (15)
3x Boros Reckoner
2x Mizzium Mortars
1x Assemble the Legion
2x Chained to the Rocks
2x Boros Charm
2x Last Breath
3x Shock
[/deck]

VS Esper

---

-2 Chained to the Rocks
+2 Boros Charm

VS UW

---

-2 Mizzium Mortars
+2 Boros Charm

VS Mono Black Devo

---

-4 Stormbreath Dragon, -2 [card:
1skq3ao0]Mountain[/card], -1 Magma Jet
+2 Mizzium Mortars, +2 Chained to the Rocks, +1 Assemble the Legion, +2 Boros Charm

VS Mono Blue Devo

---

-4 Rakdos Cackler, -4 Firedrinker Satyr, -1 Boros Charm
+2 Last Breath, +2 Chained to the Rocks, +2 Mizzium Mortars, +3 Shock

VS Small Aggro

---

-4 Rakdos Cackler, -4 Firedrinker Satyr, -2 Boros Charm, -2 Chandra, Pyromaster
+2 Last Breath, +3 [card]Boros
Reckoner[/card], +2 Mizzium Mortars, +2 Chained to the Rocks, +3 Shock

VS R/x Devo

---

-4 Rakdos Cackler, -4 Firedrinker Satyr, -2 Boros Charm, -1 Chandra, Pyromaster
+3 Boros Reckoner, +2 Mizzium Mortars, +1 Assemble the Legion, +2 Chained to the Rocks, +3 Shock

Feedback highly appreciated.