How About Them Trades, Eh?

[Second Harkius]

Madding's paranoia and loathing of bureaucracy makes sense here.


I'd prefer just one requirement (leaning heavily towards post count).

[Second Harkius]

Users browsing this forum: ( G_R ), King Spam and 4 guests

Hi mods!

[Second Harkius]

Users browsing this forum: ( G_R ), King Spam and 6 guests

Well I'll be.

[Pendulum]

I was thinking the vouch system would be a replacement to the post limit, an override to the community requirement not in addition. Like you know if President Obama came here I'd probably think he'd deserve to be let into the trading section without having to make 500 posts, I hear he's busy.

[Second Harkius]

How much does it cost to ship to Kenya?????

[Pendulum]

Frightfully expensive.

[Kazekirimaru]

I was thinking the vouch system would be a replacement to the post limit, an override to the community requirement not in addition. Like you know if President Obama came here I'd probably think he'd deserve to be let into the trading section without having to make 500 posts, I hear he's busy.

Indeed. It makes me kind of upset that I won't even be able to use the trade section I asked about for a few hundred more posts.

I have over 500 posts between here and Sally, for sure. Does that count?

[Second Harkius]

nothing on Sally counts over here

[Second Harkius]

:armscross:

[Second Harkius]

But is it really that hard to get a few hundred posts here? I mean you seem to be enjoying yourself and your clan (I assume you are FoS) has a ton of activity so it shouldn't take long.

[Second Harkius]

But we should talk about this since many new users will say exactly what you're saying.

[Sir Sapphire the 3rd]

I'll make a list of the ideas so far (if I forget any just quote the post and add to the list):

1. No restrictions, new users can trade immediately

1a. No restrictions, any user can make a trade thread but we caution traders to be especially wary of new / low post count accounts attempting to trade

2. Users need 1000 posts before getting trading privileges

3. Users need 500 posts before getting trading privileges

3a. Users need 500 posts + one vouch from an established member (someone else with 500+ posts) before getting trading privileges

4. Users need one vouch from an established member (someone else with 500+ posts) before getting trading privileges

5. Everyone can trade but only I can rip.

forgot 6 checkbox

[Sir Sapphire the 3rd]

if it wasn't for me having to head to bed I make a decent list of ideas I had. I will make sure to mind dump tomorrow after work.

[Captain Murphy]

500 posts and force them to log their address, name and pictures of their kids. In case anything goes south.

[Captain Murphy]

(Kids pictures was a joke)

[Captain Murphy]

I just watched Blow the other day thats all

[Kazekirimaru]

But is it really that hard to get a few hundred posts here? I mean you seem to be enjoying yourself and your clan (I assume you are FoS) has a ton of activity so it shouldn't take long.

I am indeed apart of Fires of Salvation. But even though I do stick a handful of posts in there on a daily basis(only around 5-10 though - I'm not as active as the others) it doesn't really help my short-term situation. Pressing matters and all that. Red mages are impatient.

You see, my first instinct was to propose a b/s/t section to FoS as a clan-only thing. But this is my idea of opening up to everyone and spreading the wealth. I don't want FoS to turn into some
secret members-only club where we only talk and trade amongst ourselves - as simple and painless as that idea may be. I feel that basing integrity and reliability on post count is folly, and stifles growth of the site as a whole. It may be simple, but simple isn't always better.

[Second Harkius]

500 posts and/or clan membership is reasonable

Either way a ripper would have to work harder here than on mtgsilly to get trade status

[Tom Servo]

I like it how people think IP checks mean anything. Like I'm banned on MTGS yet I still post wherever I want, it doesn't take much skills to circumvent IP checks.

This.

[Kaitscralt]

Kaze, the idea is to come up with a more successful model of trading that puts the established community first and keeps away people who sign up just to trade and never post, since rippers tend to fall into that category. Since FoS let's anyone join the clan who posts a request in a thread, that idea makes no sense.

Rather than lambast that "your"* trading area idea is excluding you, you could try to concede your own trading rights for a while in favor of a new and potentially better system than is utilized elsewhere on the MTG net. You'll have your required posts if you stay here.

Much like we were brainstorming ways for Twitch streamers to *want* to be invited here for a feature, the same should be true for trading. This place should be about being above the norm. Anyone can join the site, but there's good stuff that comes with sticking around.

*the talk about a trading forum was brought up by others
before you, but always shelved til more people were interested.

[Manders]

I would agree to 500 posts instead of 1000.

If FoS wants to create a trade forum in their clan community, what's stopping them? Are we against that? I'm not, but it would be their thing and their responsibility.

Vouches I would be down for, but people would have to explain WHY they're vouching for said person, not just that they are.

For instance, "I vouch for Manders because we engaged in several trades on Sally and she is a reputable trader," would be acceptable. "I vouch for Manders because I talk to her all the time and she's super cute and would never hurt a fly," while true, would not be an acceptable vouch. The problem with that, of course being, what's a good vouch and what's not? That would have to come up for discussion.

Also, if we go with vouches, the vouch-or needs to be held accountable if the vouch-ee rips anyone. I'm thinking a period of suspension from trading OR them being
marked unsuitable to make vouches.

Also, vouch-ors should be required to have over 1,000 posts, not 500, if that's what we go with for post count limitation.

Other than that, I'm not sure we need to do anything else in the pursuit of attempting to ensure no one gets ripped.

[Thrillho]

It's very important that with the implementation of a trading/selling section on this forum that we become intimately aware of what other sites' feedback scores say about users or who is on their ripper list. Users who've ripped people off on one site have jumped ship to another site until someone puts the dots together and bans them.

Ripping is, unfortunately, always going to be a concern no matter how many layers of protection you try to put over it, unless you either have a mandatory third party system (which still makes the third party hold the power), or you have an Etsy/TCGPlayer "money arrives once shipment arrival is confirmed in some way" which once again requires a third party system and is not something we can reasonably do (now, anyway).

Another issue is fake card detection. This has not uncommonly been a problem on both MTGS and MOTL and eBay, and something I want to raise as a caution but not as
something I have a solution to.

Vouches are a terrible idea as they can screw over good people taken for a ride by scumbags and allows scumbags to collude and/or pretend they got taken by a bad guy. Hell, I could make a fake account, have my primary "vouch" for it, rip some guy off by having a friend pose as the drop address, and take people for a ride. It's a system chock full of holes that is easily abused by the people it's presumably in place to protect others from.

[Manders]

T has a very good point about vouches that I hadn't considered.

[Col. Khaddafi]

Vouches are a terrible idea as they can screw over good people taken for a ride by scumbags and allows scumbags to collude and/or pretend they got taken by a bad guy. Hell, I could make a fake account, have my primary "vouch" for it, rip some guy off by having a friend pose as the drop address, and take people for a ride. It's a system chock full of holes that is easily abused by the people it's presumably in place to protect others from.

Wouldn't it hurt your reputation though, if the guy you vouched for rips people?

I know I'd be less inclined to trade with you in this case.

[Second Harkius]

Any restriction we agree on will cause some grumbling (entitlement generation, etc.) but 500 posts isn't unreasonable, encourages community involvement, and wouldn't lead to "vouch schemes" or a trail of paperwork for the mods to keep track of.

Trading privileges should be earned like trophies, new customs, certain subforum memberships, etc. That way the "serious posters" get rewarded and the new members have "unlockable achievements" to aspire to. Would it be possible to make "500 posts" into an automatic trophy for each member who reaches it? That way people can tell who is allowed to trade and who isn't (i know they can look and check post counts but this way is bit cooler).

We could even craft a trophy list for all of the "unlockable" features on the site. I am fairly certain that no other websites have that!


500 posts = Bronze ''Trader" Trophy
Get 10
thanks on one post = Silver "Star Poster" Trophy
Win a PTQ or 5K = Gold "Going Pro" Trophy

I mean some of these are goofy but I think they could end up being a lot of fun, especially since some people will try to collect them all (just like us OCD trophy hunters on the ps3)

[Thrillho]

Vouches are a terrible idea as they can screw over good people taken for a ride by scumbags and allows scumbags to collude and/or pretend they got taken by a bad guy. Hell, I could make a fake account, have my primary "vouch" for it, rip some guy off by having a friend pose as the drop address, and take people for a ride. It's a system chock full of holes that is easily abused by the people it's presumably in place to protect others from.

Wouldn't it hurt your reputation though, if the guy you vouched for rips people?

I know I'd be less inclined to trade with you in
this case.

Honestly? Do you think every trader is going to go back and see who vouched for who? And when one guy screws someone over, how do we know whether we should be lynching the guy for colluding or merely look down on them for letting a rabid cat in the house? Do we just look at them sternly over the internet when they screw the pooch for involving a scammer? It's very loose on something that has real consequences. Someone steals a Mox from you, and we're just sad at one guy while the other guy is banned and you're out $600? Seems great.

[imopen2]

i don't think a voucher system is the way to go

[Blackhound]

I like it how people think IP checks mean anything. Like I'm banned on MTGS yet I still post wherever I want, it doesn't take much skills to circumvent IP checks.

Could you teach me the ways master ?

[Kaitscralt]

Google can

[Col. Khaddafi]

yeah, like it doesn't take a degree in computer engineering to pull it out. You just have to put some minimal effort on your first setup. Though If what you want is a fully functional gimmick, just fire me a PM and I'll handle a few of them.

[Sir Sapphire the 3rd]

Please oh please No voucher system. We know it will be fine now BUT will be abused much later.

[Sir Sapphire the 3rd]

Any restriction we agree on will cause some grumbling (entitlement generation, etc.) but 500 posts isn't unreasonable, encourages community involvement, and wouldn't lead to "vouch schemes" or a trail of paperwork for the mods to keep track of.

Trading privileges should be earned like trophies, new customs, certain subforum memberships, etc. That way the "serious posters" get rewarded and the new members have "unlockable achievements" to aspire to. Would it be possible to make "500 posts" into an automatic trophy for each member who reaches it? That way people can tell who is allowed to trade and who isn't (i know they can look and check post counts but this way is bit cooler).

We could even craft a trophy list for all of
the "unlockable" features on the site. I am fairly certain that no other websites have that!


500 posts = Bronze ''Trader" Trophy
Get 10 thanks on one post = Silver "Star Poster" Trophy
Win a PTQ or 5K = Gold "Going Pro" Trophy

I mean some of these are goofy but I think they could end up being a lot of fun, especially since some people will try to collect them all (just like us OCD trophy hunters on the ps3)

What you trying to do.. Turn the site into the PS3 trophy system?
Beat a level: trophy
Don't die in 3 mins: Trophy
Spell your name right: Trophy lol

Just kidding man

[( G_R )]

Yeah, voucher system seems like it could work, but it could go wrong in many ways too, so I'm gonna vote "no, thanks". I'm liking the "achievement unlocked" approach a lot.

[Sir Sapphire the 3rd]

Yeah, voucher system seems like it could work, but it could go wrong in many ways too, so I'm gonna vote "no, thanks". I'm liking the "achievement unlocked" approach a lot.

But you'll have to download the DLC in segments.

[Tom Servo]

I like it how people think IP checks mean anything. Like I'm banned on MTGS yet I still post wherever I want, it doesn't take much skills to circumvent IP checks.

Could you teach me the ways master ?

First you have to let internet Satan into your heart

[Link]

Clan approved posters should be good?

I mean if they shady it up if we have their address they'll get the FoS beat down

[Second Harkius]

That's basically a "clan voucher" though

[Second Harkius]

If someone can't wait 3-4 weeks to get 500 posts then they can always venture into the wilderness of the Sally trading forum in the meantime.

[Link]

I read more and Kaits reasoning makes sense.

500 seems fine, considering I'm already at a 100 without even trying or realizing it

[Kaitscralt]

I'd be fine with 1,000, but that's pretty steep so if the majority wants 500 I'm down for that I s'pose.