Greatest Idea Mafia *** Game Over ***

[Mcdonalds]

Who the fuck are you talking to and minus 3 people, everyone is voting

[Stardust]

I don't like this. I don't think there's a scenario where this comes out in his favor as black goo. It seems like a subtle attempt to weed out some townies to me.

Vote: Hamfactorial

What do you mean by "weed out some townies"?

Yes, Stardust. I'm the only scum and if you lynch me you win the game. Good job; broken game. Exactly how am I trying to keep my nose down, though? I need to wrap my head around that accusation.


Well, hey, I already unvoted Stardust. How much more do you want me to pull back?

This is exactly it. You're still not talking about anything. You're still not confronting my accusation that you're doing nothing, and instead just continue to do nothing. The only discussion you've made other than discrediting my claim is setup speculation.

We can go through that if you want to.
1: Nothing.
2: A safe question.
3: A vote for me.
4: Reasoning for voting me (a valid enough concern, but not based on behaviour at all)
5: Nothing.
6: Cult talk and reinforcement that votes on me are good.
7: Cult talk.
8: Says I'm a Mafia Paranoid Gun Owner.
9: Cult talk.
10: "That's a fair point" and unvoting me. The fair point was that town doesn't stand a good chance of winning with the everybody-target-me strategy. Why does this make Dechs unvote? Because his mindset is inconsistent. He knows I'm not scum and apparently forgot to mistrust my claim.
11-15: Cult talk, setup speculation and nothing.
16: Push back against me, but it's all self-centered.
17: Nothing.

Absolutely nothing on behaviour. Absolutely nothing on who is actually scum besides a vote based on nothing but role information (which is then reversed without reason). You're not acting like a townie and you're not thinking like a townie. You're acting like scum who is trying not to draw attention.


Jamie, you've obviously played mafia before. Where was that? How many games have you played? What do you think of Dechs?

[Dechs Kaison]

The truth is that I still have no idea how to handle a day one. You do have to admit that this is a better start than the we pick. I'm on my phone right now, I can try to give you something real in a few hours.

[Dechs Kaison]

I can say this: I discarded the only mafia card I was dealt and I didn't get a werewolf card.

[rcwraspy]

I don't like this. I don't think there's a scenario where this comes out in his favor as black goo. It seems like a subtle attempt to weed out some townies to me.

Vote: Hamfactorial

What do you mean by "weed out some townies"?

Yes, Stardust. I'm the only scum and if you lynch me you win the game. Good job; broken game. Exactly how am I trying to keep my nose down, though? I need to wrap my head around that accusation.


Well, hey, I already unvoted Stardust. How much more do you want me to pull back?

This is exactly it. You're still not talking about anything. You're still not confronting my accusation that you're doing nothing, and instead just continue to do nothing. The only discussion you've made other than discrediting my claim is setup speculation.

We can go through that if you want to.
1: Nothing.
2: A safe question.
3: A vote for me.
4: Reasoning for voting me (a valid enough concern, but not based on behaviour at all)
5: Nothing.
6: Cult talk and reinforcement that votes on me are good.
7: Cult talk.
8: Says I'm a Mafia Paranoid Gun Owner.
9: Cult talk.
10: "That's a fair point" and unvoting me. The fair point was that town doesn't stand a good chance of winning with the everybody-target-me strategy. Why does this make Dechs unvote? Because his mindset is inconsistent. He knows I'm not scum and apparently forgot to mistrust my claim.
11-15: Cult talk, setup speculation and nothing.
16: Push back against me, but it's all self-centered.
17: Nothing.

Absolutely nothing on behaviour. Absolutely nothing on who is actually scum besides a vote based on nothing but role information (which is then reversed without reason). You're not acting like a townie and you're not thinking like a townie. You're acting like scum who is trying not to draw attention.


Jamie, you've obviously played mafia before. Where was that? How many games have you played? What do you think of Dechs?

Decent case, Stardust (though very early still), but why is your vote still on rednihilist?

[Dechs Kaison]

It's on me.

[RedNihilist]

I don't like this. I don't think there's a scenario where this comes out in his favor as black goo. It seems like a subtle attempt to weed out some townies to me.

Vote: Hamfactorial

What do you mean by "weed out some townies"?

Yes, Stardust. I'm the only scum and if you lynch me you win the game. Good job; broken game. Exactly how am I trying to keep my nose down, though? I need to wrap my head around that accusation.


Well, hey, I already unvoted Stardust. How much more do you want me to pull back?

This is exactly it. You're still not talking about anything. You're still not confronting my accusation that you're doing nothing, and instead just continue to do nothing. The only discussion you've made other than discrediting my claim is setup speculation.

We can go through that if you want to.
1: Nothing.
2: A safe question.
3: A vote for me.
4: Reasoning for voting me (a valid enough concern, but not based on behaviour at all)
5: Nothing.
6: Cult talk and reinforcement that votes on me are good.
7: Cult talk.
8: Says I'm a Mafia Paranoid Gun Owner.
9: Cult talk.
10: "That's a fair point" and unvoting me. The fair point was that town doesn't stand a good chance of winning with the everybody-target-me strategy. Why does this make Dechs unvote? Because his mindset is inconsistent. He knows I'm not scum and apparently forgot to mistrust my claim.
11-15: Cult talk, setup speculation and nothing.
16: Push back against me, but it's all self-centered.
17: Nothing.

Absolutely nothing on behaviour. Absolutely nothing on who is actually scum besides a vote based on nothing but role information (which is then reversed without reason). You're not acting like a townie and you're not thinking like a townie. You're acting like scum who is trying not to draw attention.


Jamie, you've obviously played mafia before. Where was that? How many games have you played? What do you think of Dechs?

Decent case, Stardust (though very early still), but why is your vote still on rednihilist?

Actually, MY rvs vote is still on Stardust.
Unvote to avoid further issues.

[imopen2]

Sorry, I've been really busy and have read approximately half a page of this thread so far. In all likelihood I will not be catching up tonight (Halloween), but I will try to do it tomorrow.

Meanwhile,

Vote: Stardust

Because he's the best player in the game

And

Unvote

Because RVS is stupid.

[Stardust]

The truth is that I still have no idea how to handle a day one. You do have to admit that this is a better start than the we pick. I'm on my phone right now, I can try to give you something real in a few hours.

Ok, so let's talk. Why did you unvote me?

[hamfactorial]

Even if the Aliens are underpowered they know two people discarded the Conspiracy Theorist cards, so they're probably feeling pretty confident. Then again, just as many Aliens were discarded as Theorists, so who knows?

Unvote: Jamie

As for Stardust, people targeting him as town just makes him lose. If he's actually town it makes sense why he wants people to not target, it hurts more than helps. That's either a well constructed ruse or an honest post, I'm willing to lean honest post. That in mind, I think the aggro on Stardust needs to be pulled back a little bit Dech.

It doesn't seem all that bad for you. The Black Goo's win condition is achieved when threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is left alive.

If you're alive, and every townie is converted to the cult, you win since you're town and count towards your own win condition.

I don't like this. I don't think there's a scenario where this comes out in his favor as black goo. It seems like a subtle attempt to weed out some townies to me.

Vote: Hamfactorial

Do you think I'm trying to weed out townies?

[Dechs Kaison]

The truth is that I still have no idea how to handle a day one. You do have to admit that this is a better start than the we pick. I'm on my phone right now, I can try to give you something real in a few hours.

Ok, so let's talk. Why did you unvote me?

Because the best reason I have for voting you is "I don't like your out of the gate claim."

I still don't like it. It's the most unverifiable claim I've ever heard, so of course it's going to make me nervous to just trust you in a game where as many as four out of nine players could be anti-town.

But I need to watch behaviors and (especially because of last game) trust my gut when it comes to clearing people. Your actions are what I'm going to need to see before I make a decision on you.

[Dechs Kaison]

I'll say this for your claim: You've used two cards in your claim that are entirely unique (Town Supersaint/Black Goo). That was either risky or just flat out true.

[Dechs Kaison]

Here's some math:

Nine players
Three cards each
118 cards total

That means roughly 23% of the available cards have been seen. Making up a claim runs a one in five chance that someone has seen the card you claim to use. It's likely you'll get away with it, but the chance we'll catch you is significant.

[Dechs Kaison]

So, I'm running a spreadsheet to help keep track of all the cards that are available (118 minus discard) and the ones that have been claimed. I encourage everyone to do the same.

Some more math from the spreadsheet I'm running:
%of Available Cards that are...
Vanillas - 20.3%
Power Role - 72.0%
Townies - 54.2%
Scum - 12.7%
Wolves - 11.9%
Aliens - 4.2%
Other - 9.3%

I only have Stardust's two claimed cards, so they don't change those numbers significantly. I will note that they're both Town and Power Roles (by that I just mean non-vanilla, someone correct my terminology if there's a better word). Those are the two largest pools to draw from. I'm not sure what this tells us, if anything.

This is a mafia rules question: I don't suppose I can post something like that to Google Drive for all of us to see/edit collectively? If I can, what happens if I die? Do I have to get rid of it?

[rezombad]

I don't suppose I can post something like that to Google Drive for all of us to see/edit collectively?

Fuck no.

[WitchHunt]

If there is a vig, I would say shoot dusty, his op is basically a huge piece of wifom, that I feel ultimately confuses the town more than anything

Those were my thoughts as well when I first read it. The only issue is we potentially lose two town members instead of one, because if Stardust flips town black goo, then we know damn well that vig is a cultist now.

What do you mean by "weed out some townies"?

The way I first read it was "If all of town targets him it puts town in a position to win", since turning a town member into a cult member isn't beneficial to town I viewed it a bit suspiciously and it would of course take some pretty stupid town to fall for it. Then it kind of dawned on me a bit late that they had to target you for you ability to affect them, which it's possible everyone in town can target you, but not likely. I still don't like they way it was worded and it makes cautious, but I'd say it's not much different from your blazing WIFOM, with that one we're damned if we do damned if we don't.

It is day one though, I probably shouldn't weigh too much into posts like that at this point.

Unvote

I like Dech's efforts on the numbers regarding cheesing your claim though. It also makes the risks of false claiming a little more apparent imo.

[Dechs Kaison]

The possessive form is Dechs'.

If you come across a pair of pants belonging to Chris, you don't call them Chri's pants.

[WitchHunt]

This mother fucker, pointing out my typo like he's some top shit.

[hamfactorial]

WitchHun't in the house.

[Dechs Kaison]

This mother fucker, pointing out my typo like he's some top shit.

It's a surprisingly common mistake. I have to assume people don't actually know how to make a name like mine possessive.

Also, my title. Kinda my job.

[Jamie]

Jamie, you've obviously played mafia before. Where was that? How many games have you played? What do you think of Dechs?

On a forum where we discussed design of video games. A lot of them wanted to 'fix' mafia and they played a ton of variants that tried to remove the unfun parts of the game (like being dead). In one variant, the dead guys all got their own QT (even the mafia guys) and there was a role who could participate in the QT while alive. It was hella cool.
Anyway everyone over there was an ultrapro at mafia games. My own mafia let me get lynched my first game because they didn't want to be the guy defending me... then they won. I learned how to play pretty quickly.

anyway I don't know anything about Dechs but it would make me happy if he was a serial killer or something.

[Dechs Kaison]

I wish I was a serial killer, especially in a game like this. I mean, anyone who knows how I like to play (well, that's only three games), knows that I love to kill players.

Sadly, this time around, it wasn't...



... in the cards.

[imopen2]

I had another town card without vanilla attached to it.

I'm way behind, but this doesn't make sense. You could have used the "town" attribute from your vanilla town role and had access to the other two abilities. Instead you used the town attribute attached to an actual ability and took the ability from the third (unknown) role? The way you phrased this doesn't sound right, and the logic seems off. If I don't see anything worse than this, you're getting a vote

[rcwraspy]

I noticed that too but he clarified later without prompting. On phone so can't find it but iso his posts and you'll see it. It actually does make sense if you read his later post about it.

[imopen2]

Yea. I see that. He felt it gave less info tl the mafia and he didn't want the other role that was attached to the second town card. I guess that makes sense.

I'm caught up.

Stardust's claim is wonky, but probably true. At least I think it's very likely that he was dealt the black goo card (based off dechs' numbers on false claiming power roles). He could have not used that ability, and simply claim it anyway, or he could be a mafia black goo or whatever, but it's not something I am anxious to test. We lose too much if he's telling the truth. That being said, there was a moment when stardust did not come across as his normal townie self...this game might be hard.

[Dechs Kaison]

He could have not used that ability, and simply claim it anyway, or he could be a mafia black goo or whatever, but it's not something I am anxious to test. We lose too much if he's telling the truth.

This is where I'm at. Since we know that the maximum number of anti-town players is 4, if we lynch three anti-town and the game still isn't over, then I'm going to start being critical of Stardust.

[imopen2]

He could have not used that ability, and simply claim it anyway, or he could be a mafia black goo or whatever, but it's not something I am anxious to test. We lose too much if he's telling the truth.

This is where I'm at. Since we know that the maximum number of anti-town players is 4, if we lynch three anti-town and the game still isn't over, then I'm going to start being critical of Stardust.

it's possible i'll be critical of him much sooner than that, but i understand what you're saying

[Dechs Kaison]

Well, obviously if he makes some kind of slip or whatever. But come on, it's Stardust.

[Stardust]

Ok, so let's talk. Why did you unvote me?

Because the best reason I have for voting you is "I don't like your out of the gate claim."

I still don't like it. It's the most unverifiable claim I've ever heard, so of course it's going to make me nervous to just trust you in a game where as many as four out of nine players could be anti-town.

But I need to watch behaviors and (especially because of last game) trust my gut when it comes to clearing people. Your actions are what I'm going to need to see before I make a decision on you.

Okay, that's fine. You know I'm always up for clearing people based on behaviour. Now that we know why you unvoted, why did you vote me? It seems to me that you had very little additional information between the two actions, yet you chose a different course. Why?

If there is a vig, I would say shoot dusty, his op is basically a huge piece of wifom, that I feel ultimately confuses the town more than anything

Those were my thoughts as well when I first read it. The only issue is we potentially lose two town members instead of one, because if Stardust flips town black goo, then we know damn well that vig is a cultist now.

So based on that, is this a good idea? Would you like me shot?

On a forum where we discussed design of video games. A lot of them wanted to 'fix' mafia and they played a ton of variants that tried to remove the unfun parts of the game (like being dead). In one variant, the dead guys all got their own QT (even the mafia guys) and there was a role who could participate in the QT while alive. It was hella cool.
Anyway everyone over there was an ultrapro at mafia games. My own mafia let me get lynched my first game because they didn't want to be the guy defending me... then they won. I learned how to play pretty quickly.

anyway I don't know anything about Dechs but it would make me happy if he was a serial killer or something.

Cool. Well welcome to DTR mafia, where everything's made up and the votes don't matter.

That being said, there was a moment when stardust did not come across as his normal townie self...

Can you quote that moment, please?

Well, obviously if he makes some kind of slip or whatever. But come on, it's Stardust.

Yeah guys, it's Stardust, the guy who never slips and always is working on some overly convoluted strategy that involves bussing all my buddies just so I can needlessly live another Day.

[Dechs Kaison]

Ok, so let's talk. Why did you unvote me?

Because the best reason I have for voting you is "I don't like your out of the gate claim."

I still don't like it. It's the most unverifiable claim I've ever heard, so of course it's going to make me nervous to just trust you in a game where as many as four out of nine players could be anti-town.

But I need to watch behaviors and (especially because of last game) trust my gut when it comes to clearing people. Your actions are what I'm going to need to see before I make a decision on you.

Okay, that's fine. You know I'm always up for clearing people based on behaviour. Now that we know why you unvoted, why did you vote me? It seems to me that you had very little additional information between the two actions, yet you chose a different course. Why?

Because it was a stupid kneejerk reaction. Those aren't exactly out of character for me or anything. I saw your claim, didn't like it, reacted to it, thought about it, and finally reconsidered it. I didn't need any additional information between the two actions to reconsider them. All I needed was more time.

Look at the Lego game. Mojo made a day one claim. I called BS, voted him, and unvoted him a few posts later.

Look at WePick. I voted, unvoted, revoted, unvoted and revoted Red how many times on day one?

I'm little more than flailing right now. I despise day ones.

[Dechs Kaison]

Well, obviously if he makes some kind of slip or whatever. But come on, it's Stardust.

Yeah guys, it's Stardust, the guy who never slips and always is working on some overly convoluted strategy that involves bussing all my buddies just so I can needlessly live another Day.

I've never seen you as scum. I was just saying that I don't expect you to make a slip if you are scum. I'm inclined to believe you, but like I said, this game has as many as four scum.

I hope they kill each other off for us.

[Stardust]

Ok, so who is scum?

Better yet, here's what I want you to do. Ask every single person in this game a question, me included.

[hamfactorial]

Dechs:

Why would the game have such a high concentration of scum players? 4 seems broken in a game of this size.

[rcwraspy]

Dechs why are you flailing? Are you hiding something? Are you scum?

[Dechs Kaison]

Dechs:

Why would the game have such a high concentration of scum players? 4 seems broken in a game of this size.

Check the setup rules. This game only guarantees that at least 50% of the population is Town. That means we could have as many as four town threats. Worst case is that they're all the same faction. Best case is that there's only one of them. What we probably have is two of one and one of another, and we should hope they end up killing each other.

[Dechs Kaison]

Dechs why are you flailing? Are you hiding something? Are you scum?

I just explained why I'm flailing: I have no idea what I'm doing on a day one.

Yes, I'm hiding something: The awesome power I picked.

And yes, I'm totes scum.

[hamfactorial]

Ok, that makes more sense. I assumed that rez would intervene if we ended up with a broken setup, but I suppose anything goes and a 4 threat setup is possible.

[Dechs Kaison]

4. Witchhunt - Discarded: Town Conspiracy Theorist
5. Hamfactorial - Discarded: Town Vanilla
7. Jamie - Discarded: Town Vanilla
8. Rednihilist - Discarded: Town Conspiracy Theorist

Alright guys, pony up. What's the "other" Town card you discarded? We know it's not a role you chose and you all seem to have the "gives the scum less information" defense, but it's bullshit. I want each of you to tell me the town card you discarded, because you must have had another town card and if you're making it up, chances are we'll be able to spot you.

[Dechs Kaison]

Ok, that makes more sense. I assumed that rez would intervene if we ended up with a broken setup, but I suppose anything goes and a 4 threat setup is possible.

Honestly, it could end up just like the WePick. That was a nine player game, right? Well, there were two scum, one survivor and one serial killer. Technically, the survivor could go either way, but I'd still call it a town threat.

[hamfactorial]

4. Witchhunt - Discarded: Town Conspiracy Theorist
5. Hamfactorial - Discarded: Town Vanilla
7. Jamie - Discarded: Town Vanilla
8. Rednihilist - Discarded: Town Conspiracy Theorist

Alright guys, pony up. What's the "other" Town card you discarded? We know it's not a role you chose and you all seem to have the "gives the scum less information" defense, but it's bullshit. I want each of you to tell me the town card you discarded, because you must have had another town card and if you're making it up, chances are we'll be able to spot you.

I'd tell you, but you said you're scum and I don't want to make it easy for you and your buddies.