Dies to Removal

After playing 6 tap lands 25-lander in ptq I dont have problem playing the same configuration in RB. Playing more lands give you an option to setup your plays in a way that it wont affet your curve most od the time.

Problem in RB right now ia the fact, that we dont have our temples. In this configuration (phoenixes, downfalls, pack rats, chandras and dragons) we are a trully 2 color deck, not one with a splash. See GW or BG - they dont play close to any mutavaulrs, and they dont have mana problems we have right now.

Right now there aretwo options:

* playing 1 color with splash such as current Big Boros
* playing true 2 colors deck imilar to the gw - they sometimes play 1 or 2 mutavaults to play close to 16 of each sources.

Playing offcolor scry lands only helps with a deck consistency agains flood, as sometimes they are just - cipt, draw a card effect, but often have limited factor with mana consitency.

I think I'm going to be bold and take DosRakis to PTQ this coming weekend lol.

Gotta admit this deck has me a little excited. Looking forward to see how it develops and testing it myself.

I think 1-2 Mutavault is the way to go at a glance.

Seems your deck is powerful, but inconsistent. Given that fact, I'd absolutely play 2/4 temples.

QFT. The curve bothers me the most. More Scrying would indeed help. I want my Temples plsThx.

I only need two more QPs until I hit finals, once that is done I'll try my earnest to help brew this archetype (or just play Modern) - my main hindrance is forking out $20 for HDF and Rats.

What are peoples thoughts on cutting Chandra's Phoenix and Chandra, Pyromaster in favor for more 1-drops, ramp, draw or MD whips?

What are peoples thoughts on cutting Chandra's Phoenix and Chandra, Pyromaster in favor for more 1-drops, ramp, draw or MD whips?

A friend of mine is running a very similar list and he borrowed my Chandra's this sunday, after a few hours of playtesting he gave them back to me and said 'well I'm glad I didn't spend 30 euros on this card like you did'.

So yeah.

By the way, can the list be played on a budget or would that detract from the removal suite? I'm looking for a deck to play on saturday when all the G/x devotion players come out. My burn list will do for FNM.

Chandra isn't a card most Red Mages are use to playing, she is really powerful but doesn't really have any intimidate impacted on the board state so many Red Mages just scoff at her.

You can play RB on budget and run something like Valdarith's PyroBlack list - I can't really see Gx beating that deck unless they get the nuts.

You dont have to run HDF, however it was the only removal spell in a format that kills everything, so it was perfect in this metagame. If there was no master I would gladly play dreadbore in this slot.

MDU. I cant see cutting phoenixes and chandras. For what? 1 drops arent good right now in the format.

I also noticed spike jester not being as good as I thought. Cant go past elf, token from precinct captain, soldier of pantheon, etc. I would settle on pack rats and ash zealots in 2 drop spots if mana wasnt a problem. Thoughts on this?

Basicly I want this deck to be red based that splashes for... pack rats, exava (which is awsome btw) and universal spot removal - right now thge only option is heros downfall. We can ru. Whatever we want in dreadbores, ultimate prices or doomblades, but they dont kill everything we would want to terrorize.

You dont have to run HDF, however it was the only removal spell in a format that kills everything, so it was perfect in this metagame. If there was no master I would gladly play dreadbore in this slot.

MDU. I cant see cutting phoenixes and chandras. For what? 1 drops arent good right now in the format.

I also noticed spike jester not being as good as I thought. Cant go past elf, token from precinct captain, soldier of pantheon, etc. I would settle on pack rats and ash zealots in 2 drop spots if mana wasnt a problem. Thoughts on this?

Basicly I want this deck to be red based that splashes for... pack rats, exava (which is awsome btw) and universal spot removal - right now thge only option is heros downfall. We can ru. Whatever we want in dreadbores, ultimate
prices or doomblades, but they dont kill everything we would want to terrorize.

I find 1 drops ok. It´s all about getting that 2-6 points of damage in. Alongside Chandra they always have a chance to contribute and with the ability to be sacced to the rat later I don´t want to cut them down. That´s a big improvement over YP$ who is dependent on drawing burn and has no synergy with Mutavault.

More about Pack Rat. I think it´s not a T2 play despite it´s spot on the curve. It´s YP$ with extra to be deplyoed T4+.

Jester wrestles with the manabase. [mana]br[/mana] is possible while sacrificing 1 drops, but it´s not THAT good just as you experienced. I vote for Zealot whose FS ability is extra value in synergy with the decks burn. That allows for a more splashy deck. Downfall is a super terror, but it's also is caught in a sub optimal manabase.

If your running HDF its no longer Rb but RB due too the [mana]BB[/mana] and [mana]RR[/mana] requirements, Dreadbore is bad in a format where Ux Devotion is dominate while Price and Blade arn't great either... (Ux will just kill you with Frost Burns, Nightveils and thasa while you keep 3x prices).

IDK I'm use to Chains answering everything, so I'm in favor of MD HDF the only issue is the horrible manabase.

So we need 2 black mana on tur n 3-5 most of the time, whole wanting 2 red in turns 2-3. With cackler we want any untapped land turn 1.

Manabase ideas? Maybe run more lands than normal (with 4 dragons and exava) as it gets you more posibilities on managing land drops?

Or just leave this idea to next set when we will have better manabase and start from there, while contributing more to boros deck (however it is complete right now)

Btw after playing those varia ts discussed in this threads I cant get myself to play any deck without removal. I faced very good GW deck in my 8mans, seems very good and have solid removal options (banisher priest, polukranos, colosus, serenity, spear of heliod, pit fight and feed the hunter (the one for 3 mana fight) plus last breaths. Should I post it here or we only disscuss red decks here?)

That GW Devotion deck is a freaken nightmare, esp. post board with Glare of Heresy makes me wish I was running RB .

- - - - - - - - - -

On topic:

Rakdos Keyrune is an ramp option which also serve as a late game manasink, perhaps that could work (T3 Keyrune, T4 Pack rats + Another Pack Rats or T4 Dragon).

Something like J_S's list:

[deck]J_S RB[/deck]
Just toss in pack Rats over Jester, some burns over 1-Drops or something, HDF over Dreadbore then add
more swamps and bam! you have a solid deck.

I can see it, however is it worth it? I would just prefer to play pseudo rb control with rats, phoenixes, demons and dragons, chandra plus lots of discard, removal and connections.

4 rats
4 phoenixes
4 demons
4 dragons

2 chandras
X connections/bones
X keyrunes

Hella lot of removal.

25-26 lands with 4 vaults. It would be sth similar to what we play post board vs agro and midrange, we would just need some kind f plan vs control (caclers, jesters, zealots in sb? More discard?)

If you do go the Exava route you could drop the Jesters for Chainwalkers. They run the same power and make for a better late game if you have Exava out.

If the Rakdos Keyrune doesn't appeal to ya, just copy the GW land base except add 2x vaults so we have 25 lands.

GW runs many spells which require [mana]GG[/mana] and [mana]WW[/mana] so if it works for them it should work for us, this will make us softer to control but almost everything has haste so vaults isn't as vital for RB like how it is for RW.

You can play RB on budget and run something like Valdarith's PyroBlack list - I can't really see Gx beating that deck unless they get the nuts.

I'm actually trying to go full aggro on this one since it was my first love .The only card I can't afford is hero's downfall but since there is currently only one mono U devotion player in our meta I can easily substitute it with Dreadbore, no?

So, what sideboard are you guys running? (aka do I have to save up for thoughtseize?)

You don't need thoughtseize, unless BW control in big in your meta (on MODO you'll need thoughtseize).

I will help brew and test this deck soon (most likely on Thursday) if I can borrow/steal 4x Pack Rats and 3x HDF (I would like to test up until Sat, till I can decide if I want to buy the cards or not).

[deck]Pedros BR Aggro - budget[/deck]

So, is this workable?

Meta is mainly G/x devo, mono B, mono R, B/R aggro, small red aggro, White Weenie and bit of orzhov/esper.

G/x devo players consistently end up in the top 3 so I know for sure I'll face at least one (probably 2) of them.

How is anything that has Mutavault, Chandra and SBD budget? You guys are all going bigger and bigger, are you sure that is the way to go?

It's budget because it doesn't include anything expensive that I don't already own

I'm not really a fan of your curve. You need black for both of your two drops and RR for your three and five drops, plus red for your two and four drops and RR for Chandra. You are conceeding that by screwing up your mana base, making it very likely for you to draw double Swamp, double Mountain, or basic + Mutavault hands which will drastically increase your mulligan rate. Looks way too nasty for my conservative deckbuilding tastes.

Re: my deck vs G/x. Easiest matchup for the deck. They can't win postboard short of the nuts.

Re: cutting Phoenix and Chandra. I think if you want to go that route it's better to just go heavy on the black side so you can run Mogis's Marauder and Hero's Downfall.

Yeah I'm not that strong with building mana bases

I'll try running your Pyroblack list instead

[deck]Pedros BR Aggro[/deck]
How important is vaults when everything pretty much has haste?

Are you planning to SB an extra Chandra?

Otherwise I am totally in love with that list

[deck]Pedros BR Aggro[/deck]
How important is vaults when everything pretty much has haste?

Nice list!

Thoughts:

Do we need MD Whip over Chandra?
Spike Yester or Ash zealots? Someone pointed out that mostly it is wise to play Pack Rat on turn 5 to discard, so it would allow us to chandra a manabase a bit to support that plan.

My thoughts on your thoughts:

1) Tell me, in which MU is Whip bad? Whip does wonders with Pack Rats and can provide the same type of CA which Chandra does.
2) Spike Jester is also easier on the Manabase then Ash is, also makes SB'ing less of a pain.
3) Casting Pact rats on T5 is only really relevant vs Small Red and Black Devotion, every other MU the rat either doesn't matter or they don't pack much removal. (I'm not sure how Chandra fits in with the Rat plan, she doesn't actually draw you cards per-say).

@Tyrael: If you want to SB Chandra your welcome to it I'm taking a breaking a small break right now so you guys need to do all the testing on your own (I just want to help throw out ideas).

Ok, time for a noob question: How good is Pack Rat really in an aggro deck? I see the whole "omfg, fixes topdecks and gets huge in late game" argument, but how often is this relevant? He seems like a terrible drop "on curve" and not worth much on his own later in the game. I see the things he might do against decks with little to no removal, but is that enough of a reason to run him? I would feel terrible about dropping a 1/1 without haste in turn 2 (in any turn actually). Is it impossible to end games fast enough for Ashley to be better than Rat?

This post is turning into a bit of a ramble i realize, I guess what i want to ask is: Is it possible that Pack Rat is only needed because it is so slow on curve that we need a stronger late game, and could it possibly improve the deck to simply make it more hard-hitting in earlier turns?

I don't like Pack Rat in this deck at all.

To the people talking about rat here is small table.

Rat damage:
0 0 2 6(8) 12(15)

Nr in brackets to animate mutavaults.

Perfect haste draws:
0 3 5 9 13

Curve of spike jester, phoenix, exava, dragon.

Both will kill opponent by turn 5, even without mutavault for more damage. Problem is the fact, that you need perfect haste curve to do so, more mana (pack rats can kill with 3 mana only, also with extra mana you can cast more spells).

Rats have also pseudo haste, as they acts as lords fpr others pack rats. Also while some of the beaters can be shut down, rats never are as they can/be bigger than anything.

If you want to play hardcore agro - not some more midrange, heavier agressive version you should just play rdw or pyro red, as more focused mana whise decks are better in terms of speed.

@MDU.

Didnt think about whip like that, it might be really good vs everything.
As for chandra - while it isnt
drawing you cards for rats, it can recur pitched phoenix - it acts as card advantage also, and can help you to expand your board with lands and kill with removal while you pitch drawn cards for rats.

Well Chandra indirectly draws you cards as you can play the exiled card and discard the card you drew in your draw step

just my 2 cents

To the people talking about rat here is small table.

Rat damage:
0 0 2 6(8) 12(15)

Nr in brackets to animate mutavaults.

Perfect haste draws:
0 3 5 9 13

Curve of spike jester, phoenix, exava, dragon.

Both will kill opponent by turn 5, even without mutavault for more damage. Problem is the fact, that you need perfect haste curve to do so, more mana (pack rats can kill with 3 mana only, also with extra mana you can cast more spells).

Rats have also pseudo haste, as they acts as lords fpr others pack rats. Also while some of the beaters can be shut down, rats never are as they can/be bigger than anything.

If you want to play hardcore agro - not some more midrange, heavier agressive version you should just play rdw or pyro red, as more focused mana
whise decks are better in terms of speed.

@MDU.

Didnt think about whip like that, it might be really good vs everything.
As for chandra - while it isnt drawing you cards for rats, it can recur pitched phoenix - it acts as card advantage also, and can help you to expand your board with lands and kill with removal while you pitch drawn cards for rats.

Great post Pedros! Rats place is to provide additional muscle in the mid to late game, which it does better than YP$ as Pedros eloquently explains.

Whip sounds like a possible 1-off in the SB. Good catch MDU.

I´m still in doubt over the high curve though as dragons are a high risk bet in an environment filled with MonoB decks (and Esper). Using the 5 mana tier to deploy rat with the option to grow, thus nullifying their removal, has worked for me.

This deck looks fuckin badass guys, great job.

I think I might test it out tonight at my LGS if I can get some Hereo's Downfall.

To the people talking about rat here is small table.

Rat damage:
0 0 2 6(8) 12(15)

Nr in brackets to animate mutavaults.

Perfect haste draws:
0 3 5 9 13

Curve of spike jester, phoenix, exava, dragon.

You're forgetting Cackler in that perfect haste draw example.

T1 - 0 (cackler unleashed)
T2 - 5 (cackler, jester)
T3 - 7 (cackler, jester, phoenix)
T4 - 11 (cackler, jester, phoenix, exava)

That's 23 damage by T4, with burn and dragons to close it out T5+.

I also didnt count cackler in rat version, then it is 0->2->4->8(10)->14(17).

Both draws are good, however rats needs less cards to be good.

Man Rakdos's Return seems so good....might try it out over Chandra

Did some testing tonight, played about 10 games. No sideboard.

Went 5-2 vs U/W control and also 3-0 vs Mono Blue.

Deck was great!! A total blast to play. Some inconsistencys due to mana but it seemed like bad luck.

Oh I ran MDU version except -1 Magma Jet, -1 Chandra, +1 Whip, +1 Rakdos Return.


I like Pack Rat so far, though it isn't that great against U/W cause he usually had a way to kill it with D-Sphere or Verdict.

He seems amazing against any deck without sweepers.

Man Rakdos's Return seems so good....might try it out over Chandra

This the aggro thread, but I somehow believe that mixing Rakdos aggro and Devotion could end up with something. T1 to 3 offense and then the option to blow out their hand with Return. The issue is of course how much splash that balances vs devotion. I´m afraid Pack Rat would have to go in favour for Zealot.

T4 examples for us on the play:

• Cackler, Jester, Phoenix = 4 Devotion + 4 land (1 Nytkthos) = Return hitting for 3.
• Cackler, Zealot, Phoenix = 5 Devotion + 4 land (1 Nytkthos) = Return hitting for 4.

They´d be at 10 drawn cards, 3 lands on table, 3 played, supposing non-Control, leaving 4
in hand. In that view Return looks good.

But there´s a big aber here that the assumption is we have all our permanents alive and kicking to contribute, which is quite optimistic since the opponent also is supposed to have played 3 cards. Return looks more like a wincon out of nowhere which capitalizes on the recursive ability of current red, meaning Chandra and her Phoenix should be good tools. Yet now we are ending up at a spot where Exavas curve spot is starting to look crowded (Chandra, Exava AND Return...).

It would take some strategy thinking to sort out, but I think there´s merit in the thought.

You'll board out the rats vs control

I like Rakdos's Return as well since casting it for 5 is usually enough to deplete a hand in this format (even vs control) I'm not sure you want 2x Whips MD (its a heavy mana investment) which is why I had 1/1 split with chandra.

Yeah MDU is so good I didnt write anywhere but you sb rats out.

If we want to go devotion road, it is better to play Rakdos Shread Freak over Spike Jester. Less Power, but more devotion, and easier to turn on Erebos after SB.

Notice Pack Rats are clones not tokens, so they give devotion.

As I said, this deck looses to itself right now, not to the opponents most of the time. To not loose to itself it might be better to go bigger -> devotion road seems decent that way. Ash Zealot, Shread Freaks, Phoenixes, Reckoners (with some godless shrine only), however then you cant play much removal - this is something I really like in this deck, that you can play good creatures AND removal in devotion based metagame, where killing is very important.

How was Rakdos Cackler for everyone? We might want to move out of 1 drops to play more like
a midrange control deck, just with hasty beaters.

Curve sth like:

1. TapLand
2. Zealot/SpikeJester/Pack Rat (probably play 2 of those 3 only)
3. Phoenix
4. Exava
5. Dragon

~20 creatures, ~25 lands, ~2-3 non removal permanents (chandra, whip), rest removal & discard (around 12-15)

I like the idea of keyrunes as a form of reach, but if you're running pack rats you really need vaults or a card draw option.

[deck=Jdub's Thoughts]Creatures(22)
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Tormented Hero
4 Spike Jester
4 Pack Rat
4 Ash Zealot
2 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch

(Replacement options to Hero)
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Legion Loyalist

Spells (14)
//Removal
2 Dreadbore
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Mizzium Mortars
//Burn
4 Lightning Strike
//Misc
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
3 Rakdos Keyrune

Land (24)
10 Mountain
4 Blood Crypt
4 Rakdos Guildgate
2 Temple of Silence
4 Mutavault[/deck]

I'd really like to find a way to fit [card]Toil // Trouble[/card] in here or, potentially, Erebos, God of the Dead As a form of card advantage/lifegain counterplay. Thoughts?

Reasons I didn't load up on Dreadbore: Prevalence of Mono U devotion makes it less useful than a pure
black removal option, Doom Blade or Ultimate Price are other options here but I like how Downfall takes down specters as well as Master of the Waves.

If I were to up the mana curve any I'd certainly consider Underworld Cerberus, Master of Cruelties, or Rakdos, Lord of Riots as finishers.