Dies to Removal

Think a minute about what you're saying though. Keranos is a grindy card. You can't outgrind a control deck.

I don't need to outgrind. I just need to squeak out the last few points of damage. I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree on the usefulness of Keranos in our sideboard.

I support your right to be wrong. I'm not saying he wouldn't be useful in the sideboard, but I wouldn't want him there for control matches.

Keranos is very good against UB control, it's one if the hardest cards to beat.

That's not immediately obvious to me, especially without knowing what UB control looks like post-FRF. Ugin and Perilous Vault deal with it fairly easily. It's nice that it isn't a walker so it can't die to Downfall, but with this flavor of Jeskai I'd rather just go kill my opponent than try to grind them out.

Ugin costs eight and Vaukt gives you a lot if room for counter play; with many decks moving toward Crux Keranos gets even better. Keranos forces them to be one aggressive which not only gives you more openings to punish them, but if tgey can't go aggressive they just lose.

Another thing is that a big dynamic of burn vs control for both sides is holding up mana eot. If you're playing ugin or perilous vault, you are losing the hold-up-mana game.

Keranos is close to impossible to kill and makes burning them out much easier. The extra resources all add up pretty quickly as ub mainly wins by one for one trading till you're out of cards them pulling ahead with ca before dropping there win con and keeping counters up.

The best way I've found of attacking them it's by getting max value out of your creatures early(which mostly suck against them), resolving some digs and timing you're good burn to put them in range or tying up there mana. 5 drops are really good since they either get immediate value(stormbreath) or are extremely hard to interact with like prognostic sphinx and Keranos.

You want you're four Point burn but that's it since the gain lands just blank strikes and slashes. Counters, instant speed draw and fives are what you want to bring in. Outburst and seeker are mostly bad since they add value to drown in sorrows and silumgar without being able to affect the game often. Rabbles still fine since he often gets instant value and can just win games. Grandmaster can be good in the late game copying counters burn and card draw.

Valorous stance is pretty mediocre, but it's fine having one or two to protect from wrath or downfall. Just know most of the removal exiles or give minus x so I'd only want it if everything else sucks.

If you're playing tokens, all you have to do is resolve ascendancy and everything should work itself.

Here is my current token build after seeing this weekend's results. Hopefully I'll go play tuesday/thurs night. Found out there is a ptq this weekend, I will probably attend depending on how tues/thurs nights go.

[deck]3 Seeker
3 Rabble
2 Mantis Rider

4 Ascendancy

4 Stokes
2 Wild Slash
3 Lightning Strike
2 Jeskai Charm
1 Valorous Stance

4 Raise the Alarm
4 Hordeling Outburst

4 Treasure Cruise

23 Lands

SB

2 Mantis Rider
1 Keranos
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Valorous Stance
1 Scouring Sands
2 Negate
3 Glare of Heresy
1 Elspeth
1 Erase[/deck]

1 Slot missing could be: Mentor, Rabble #4, or Seeker #4, Wild Slash #3, Lightning Strike #4, Chandra

What do we thnk?

Tom Ross Jeskai Tokens:

[deck]Creatures: (5)
3 Monastery Mentor
2 Soulfire Grand Master

Planeswalkers (2)
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker

Lands (25)
2 Island
1 Mountain
2 Plains
3 Battlefield Forge
4 Flooded Strand
4 Mystic Monastery
2 Shivan Reef
3 Temple of Epiphany
4 Temple of Triumph


Spells (28)
4 Jeskai Ascendancy
1 Dig Through Time
1 Disdainful Stroke
1 Jeskai Charm
2 Lightning Strike
4 Raise the Alarm
3 Stoke the Flames
4 Wild Slash
1 End Hostilities
3 Hordeling Outburst
4 Treasure Cruise


Sideboard
1 Citadel Siege
1 Mastery of the Unseen
1 Burn Away
1 Dig Through Time
1 Disdainful Stroke
1 Erase
3 Negate
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Anger of the Gods
2 End Hostilities
1 Glare of Heresy
1 Scouring Sands[/deck]

yeah I saw... its random as fuck.

Not really. It's more like jeskai token control

Not sure if better then with rabble, but it without it, the control board plan is much better.

That and citadel siege is actually really sweet sideboard tech. It's like valorous stance every turn if it goes unanswered.

Mentor is obcene, won every game I cast it tonight. Jeskai Charm also seems like a card to be playing right now. Was able to win multiple games with it. I think I like 2 main, might throw the 3rd in the SB for the ptq.

Charm got a lot better with the format speeding up.

Ran the list above last night to a 3-1 finish. Beating UW heroic, Mardu Tokens and Mono U control (super scrub), and lost to a Temur list.

Mentor was obscene when I cast it against both UW heroic and Mardu. I am going to pick up 3 of them on my lunch break. After last nights testing, this is what I am going to try out for Thursday night in preparation for my PTQ on Saturday.

[deck]
3 Seeker
4 Mentor
1 Mantis Rider

4 Ascendancy

4 Stokes
1 Wild Slash
4 Lightning Strike
2 Jeskai Charm
1 Valorous Stance

4 Raise the Alarm
4 Hordeling Outburst

4 Treasure Cruise

23 Lands

SB
2 Mantis Rider
1 Keranos
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Valorous Stance
1 Jeskai Charm
2 Negate
3 Glare of Heresy
1 Elspeth
1 Erase
[/deck]

Negate was very good for me vs both Mardu and UW heroic. I am wondering if I wan't to cut erase (although it is good against dealing with ordeals at instant speed, whip and or sieges/coursers out of Green decks) for the 3rd negate so I have another card for control and token style decks.

The mantis Riders are in for the Green X matchups with courser, and for UB control. It's possible that maybe those should be Sarkhan?

There were a couple times when I was unable to stoke due to there being mentor tokens out and not rabbles. it is possible that maybe I cut a lightning strike, for a 2nd wild slash. I'm iffy about cutting a stoke because x/4 creatures can be hard to deal with, and it is essentially my only answer to SBD (possibly another reason to add a sarkhan or two?).

Thoughts?

Maybe Elspeth is my cut? I am actually not sure what it is great against other than Abzan Aggro (this is what I am told, not from experience)

http://goo.gl/QIv9Us
Jones' list on tokens has Heliod's pilgrim. it was pre frf i think?

It was pre-frf and I think it's a CFB deck that David Ochoa wrote about from GP Denver.

It was pre-frf and I think it's a CFB deck that David Ochoa wrote about from GP Denver.

^^That.


[deck]
3 Seeker
3 Mentor
2 Rabble

4 Ascendancy

4 Stokes
2 Wild Slash
3 Lightning Strike
2 Jeskai Charm
1 Valorous Stance

4 Raise the Alarm
4 Hordeling Outburst

4 Treasure Cruise

24 Lands

SB
2 Mantis Rider
1 Keranos
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Valorous Stance
1 Jeskai Charm
2 Negate
3 Glare of Heresy
1 Elspeth
1 Erase[/deck]

Gonna try this out tonight after picking up mentors yesterday. Elspeth to me seems like the weakest card, I am not actually sure what matchups I want it in.

@Zem - I'm going to try this SB plan vs UW: +3 Glare +1 Erase +1 Charm +2 Negate -1 Stoke -2 Cruise (this card just seems a bit slow in the matchup) -1 Rabble -2 Outburst -1 Mentor

^^How does this look to you?

Ross's article was very good today, very informative. I'm not sure playing end hostilities and angers is better than racing and winning with jeskai charm blowouts. He came to some of the same conclusions I did about mentor.

Good plan; I don't like Negate; it's hard to get into a position to use it when you're ahead on board but not way ahead; it's especially bad on the draw.

I'd rather keep in a Rabble and 1 other threat to apply more pressure; you can't play control for too long IMO; I lose the games where you can interact cheaply and then quickly race before I can rebuild.

Thanks Z, I can see what your saying about negate.

Played the list above last night to another 3-1 finish, beating UB, Temur Ascendancy and Abzan (no caryatids list). Lost to a mirror who was more on the prowess route than the tokens one.

The MD was perfect honestly. I might try an anger in the SB over jeskai charm tonight during testing. PTQ tomorrow!

I can't be abzan aggro. Does tokens beat abzan aggro?

Ross's article was very good today, very informative. I'm not sure playing end hostilities and angers is better than racing and winning with jeskai charm blowouts. He came to some of the same conclusions I did about mentor.

I scanned his 1/29 article and didn't find mention of Mentor at all.

He is Tom Ross and I'm not, but I found some of his conclusions that were discernable to be rather perplexing, like saying "
Playing less than four copies of Stoke the Flames and Hordeling Outbursts were mistakes. Additionally, there weren't enough red creatures in general to reliably convoke Stoke the Flames. " and then going on to say that a lower number of Rabble is better. If there's not enough red creatures for stoke, how does cutting red creatures but still playing all 4 stokes make sense?

Tokens is bad vs abzanaggro too.
http://goo.gl/pE8Smn 10th place jeskai aggro


Here's what I'm at with testing
[deck]duders
4 Seeker of the Way
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Hordeling Outburst
3 Mantis Rider
2 Soulfire Grand Master
2 Prognostic Sphinx
1 Wingmate Roc

kill
3 Wild Slash
3 Jeskai Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Stoke the Flames

gas
2 Dig Through Time

mana
3 Mystic Monastery
2 Mountain
2 Plains
2 Island
4 Flooded Strand
3 Battlefield Forge
2 Shivan Reef
2 Temple of Epiphany
4 Temple of Triumph

board
3 Disdainful Stroke
2 Negate
1 Dig Through Time
1 Glare of Heresy
2 Valorous Stance
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Font of Fortunes
1 Burn Away
1 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Outpost Siege
[/deck]

Anger barely kills anything anymore. Abzan aggro it kills heir and warden, and early rakshakas and fleecemanes but that's it. Sidisi decks aren't popular right now. I still want 2 in case of g/r monsters or temur or whatever else is out there.
Otherwise I'm winning vs u/b control consistently and 50% against u/w.
Deck does just fine.

Very recently I have started getting my ass handed to me by the Sultai Tasigur deck. Aside from Valorous Stance and praying on Disdainful Stroke. What other options do we have to fight this new menace?

I think having Valorous Stance means you can now take out the counterspells completely and play a proactive role like RW aggro does. Unfortunately you cannot support Chained to the Rocks so you'd have to commit to playing cards like Banishing Light. Alternatively, play Chandra and never worry about him.

I think fab's bug control list is still in their favor but I think tokens is even worse against it. The rare case where tokens is worse than aggro. I board in 12 cards.
Game 1, you punish their slow starts really hard. They never maindeck dissolve but they do have disdainful stroke. When I get there, I win off the back of stormbreath or mantis rider. The guys I play against mulligan every hand they don't have a green or double black.

I board out my weak burn and some of my toughness creatures - seeker on the play and rabble on the draw- and in come the anti u/b control package of permissions, keranos, and "the 25th land". They usually board out sultai charm so outpost siege is good (it might be good anyway), and I've been playing burn away as 1of side tech in this matchup but it has yet to impact the game so I might take it out. I'm not maindecking v-stance yet but I'll probably change it and right now I'd board it in.
They board in early creatures like rakshaka (and one of my practice partners was using Merciless Executioner in the side, probably for u/w heroic?) , negate, any not-main tasigurs, and feed the clan. I don't know what they board out really. That's just what I notice they bring in that has been effective.
Holy shit [card]Rakshasa's Secret[/card] is so unfair too. I can't play around it without playing into crux or drown or bileblight.
The matchup is pretty winnable but I've overloaded my deck with vs. control options

Went 6-3 at the scg 5k for top 39.

won vs uw heroic
won vs sultai control
lost to jeskai combo
won vs tokens
lost to tokens
won vs tokens
won vs ub control
won vs rg monsters
lost to tokens

sultai and ub control were easy matchups but I want to see how that matchup plays out when I don't draw a keranos every boarded game. I played the land-go/counterspell game better than they did. Font "25th land" of Fortunes was a true hero in 2 of the games though!
I didn't face abzan aggro, which won the event.

Here was my final list.

[deck]
duders
4 Seeker of the Way
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
3 Mantis Rider
3 Soulfire Grand Master
3 Hordeling Outburst
2 Prognostic Sphinx
1 Wingmate Roc

kill
3 Wild Slash
3 Jeskai Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Stoke the Flames

gas
2 Dig Through Time

mana 24
3 Mystic Monastery
2 Mountain
2 Plains
2 Island
4 Flooded Strand
3 Battlefield Forge
2 Shivan Reef
2 Temple of Epiphany
4 Temple of Triumph


the board
3 Disdainful Stroke
2 Negate
1 Dig Through Time
1 Glare of Heresy
2 Valorous Stance
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Font of Fortunes
1 Burn Away
1 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Outpost Siege
[/deck]

I also managed to salvage a 6-3 for 55th place at my SCG 5k after an 0-2 start.

[deck]Jeskai[/deck]

Round 1: RW Aggro (0-2)
Kept solid hand game 1 and drew nothing but lands. Kept a one land hand on a mull to 5 game 2 and never saw any more lands.
0-1

Round 2: Abzan Midrange (1-2)
Burned him hard game 1 but ended up with him at one and one mana short to Cruise and cast the Slash I drew. I managed to burn him out through two Rhinos game 2. Game 3 had him draw a lot of his sideboard cards while I flooded out.
0-2

Round 3: Temur Ascendency (2-1)
I had him very low game 1 before he barely managed to go off and finish me game 1. I made a misstep casting a Cruise instead of holding up Jeskai Charm to bounce the Polukranos he went infinite with. Games 2 and 3 had him stall out while I beat him down.
1-2

Round 4: Sultai Control (2-0)
Both games had me overloading his removal and finishing him off with burn.
2-2

Round 5: Jund (2-0)
I burn him out fairly easily game one. Game two I get him low but start drawing lands while he drops a Sarkhan and hits me with it. I managed to get the lethal burn spell one turn before I would have died.
3-2

Round 6: UW Heroic (2-1)
I lose the race in game 1 to Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest. I squeak out game 2 with a pair of Deflecting Palms. My opponent was either tilted or exhausted after that and conceded the match for some reason.
4-2

Round 7: Abzan Aggro (2-0)
My opponent has slow starts both games that allow Rabblemaster to do what he does.
5-2

Round 8: Jeskai Tokens (1-2)
I manage to burn him out game 1 with support from a pair of Mantis Riders. Game 2, I fail to force a draw with Deflecting Palm due to a final burn spell in his hand. I might have mistimed my spells giving him that out. Game 3 he drops his tokens while I draw air. All three games he had Outburst into Stoke and usually had an Ascendency active.
5-3

Round 9: Temur Monsters (2-0)
I burn out all three of his Elvish Mystics game 1, leaving him with one land in play. Game 2 he stumbles and falls to 3 Mantis Riders.


Final Analysis
A very discouraging start but managed to salvage something out of it and fell just short of cashing. Monastery Mentor was disappointing, the only tokens he made were from effects that I cast to try and protect my Mentor from sweepers and therefore died immediately. I also found that I need more answers to Hordeling Outburst as my normal removal doesn't work very well against them. Manabase was a bit rough. I really want 23.5 lands but will likely have to stay at 24.

Deck adjustments:
Main: -2 Monastery Mentor, +2 Brimaz, -1 Temple of Epiphany, +1 Temple of Triumph
Sidebaord: -2 Brimaz, +1 Anger of the Gods, +1 Chandra, Pyromaster

This is the deck I played at a PTQ, going 6-2 and just missing out on the top8. My losses was to a PT player and a Judge

Anyway, the deck crushes Abzan of all flavour and is great in the R/W/x mirrors. There are just so much lifegain from the Charms, Seekers and Grand Masters. Alesha is a boss and between her the SGM and DTT the deck has some great card advantage going for it in the matches where it's relevant.


[deck]Land (24)

3x Battlefield Forge
3x Flooded Strand
1x Island
2x Mountain
4x Mystic Monastery
2x Plains
2x Shivan Reef
3x Temple of Epiphany
4x Temple of Triumph

Instant (20)

2x Dig Through Time
4x Jeskai Charm
4x Lightning Strike
1x Negate
3x Stoke the Flames
2x Valorous Stance
4x Wild Slash

Creature (16)

2x Alesha, Who Smiles at Death
4x Mantis Rider
4x Monastery Mentor
4x Seeker of the Way
2x Soulfire Grand Master

Sideboard (15)

1x Alesha, Who Smiles at Death
1x Anger of the Gods
2x Arc Lightning
3x Disdainful Stroke
2x Erase
1x Glare of Heresy
2x Negate
1x Soulfire Grand Master
1x Stoke the Flames
1x Valorous Stance

[/deck]

I kinda like the Alesha as a way to rebuy Rabblemasters. I am not sure if it is worth it for my deck as it would be replacing Brimaz but I will at least consider such a thing for the sideboard in removal heavy fights.

The deck is a little more defenisve them most jeskai decks are. I'm not really trying to attack with it untill I have an overwhelming number of guys or if my opponent trys to attack into me then I'll normally block and kill everything he is attacking with and crack back for loads. Alesha has been really pulling her weight against removal hevy decks, just remember that you don't get any goblins when you buy back, it's one of the reasons I'm running Mentors since they have prowess and give me tokens when I use my burn.

[deck]Creature (16)
4 Seeker of the Way
1 Soulfire Grand Master
4 Mantis Rider
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
3 Stormbreath Dragon

Sorcery (3)
3 Treasure Cruise

Instant (16)
3 Wild Slash
4 Lightning Strike
4 Stoke the Flames
3 Valorous Stance
1 Abzan Advantage
1 Dig Through Time
Enchantment (1)
1 Outpost Siege

Land (24)
4 Mystic Monastery
4 Temple of Triumph
2 Temple of Epiphany
4 Shivan Reef
2 Battlefield Forge
4 Flooded Strand
2 Plains
2 Island

Sideboard (15)
1 Valorous Stance
1 Outpost Siege
2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
2 Negate
3 Disdainful Stroke
1 Glare of Heresy
[/deck]

This was the list from top 8 GP seville. Looks pretty fun.

Looks perfect.

This is the deck I played at a PTQ, going 6-2 and just missing out on the top8. My losses was to a PT player and a Judge

Anyway, the deck crushes Abzan of all flavour and is great in the R/W/x mirrors. There are just so much lifegain from the Charms, Seekers and Grand Masters. Alesha is a boss and between her the SGM and DTT the deck has some great card advantage going for it in the matches where it's relevant.


[deck]Land (24)

3x Battlefield Forge
3x Flooded Strand
1x Island
2x Mountain
4x Mystic Monastery
2x Plains
2x Shivan Reef
3x Temple of Epiphany
4x Temple of Triumph

Instant (20)

2x Dig Through Time
4x Jeskai Charm
4x Lightning Strike
1x Negate
3x Stoke the Flames
2x Valorous Stance
4x Wild Slash

Creature (16)

2x Alesha, Who Smiles at Death
4x Mantis Rider
4x Monastery Mentor
4x Seeker of the Way
2x Soulfire Grand Master

Sideboard (15)

1x Alesha, Who Smiles at Death
1x Anger of the Gods
2x Arc Lightning
3x Disdainful Stroke
2x Erase
1x Glare of Heresy
2x Negate
1x Soulfire Grand Master
1x Stoke the Flames
1x Valorous Stance

[/deck]

Aside from the manabase(4 flooded, 1 mountain, 2 island would be much better) this deck is REALLY well built and I'm a fan.

Aside from the manabase(4 flooded, 1 mountain, 2 island would be much better) this deck is REALLY well built and I'm a fan.

Thanks man, I'v made some tweeks to the deck since then. Mostly the mana base as I'm bad at building that. Alesha has been great for me against Abzan/green deck, but in the end she was a win-more card in that MU. So I changed her for Brimaz to help more in the mirror. I also added 2 Gods Willing since I found it to be a huge tempo swing when playing the Mentor against opponents removal.

The funny thing I found when sideboarding was that i would normally take out my Mantis Riders and some number of cards that where inefficient(Like Valorous Stance against R/W/x) against a lot of decks and just adding more control/kill cards and ride the lifegain from SGM, charms and seekers while slowly building up with the Mentor. While the Mantis Rider is a great card I found he is the weakest of all the great cards in the deck unless your facing plainswalkers or control decks where the haste is huge. I have also had several games where I hit 7 mana and can bounce my opponents creatures every turn while using the buy back from Soulfire Grand Master.

[deck]Land (24)

2x Battlefield Forge
4x Flooded Strand
2x Island
1x Mountain
4x Mystic Monastery
2x Plains
2x Shivan Reef
1x Temple of Enlightenment
2x Temple of Epiphany
4x Temple of Triumph

Instant (20)

1x Dig Through Time
2x Gods Willing
4x Jeskai Charm
4x Lightning Strike
3x Stoke the Flames
2x Valorous Stance
4x Wild Slash

Creature (16)

2x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
4x Mantis Rider
4x Monastery Mentor
4x Seeker of the Way
2x Soulfire Grand Master

Sideboard (15)

2x Arc Lightning
3x Disdainful Stroke
2x Erase
1x Glare of Heresy
1x Gods Willing
3x Negate
1x Soulfire Grand Master
1x Stoke the Flames
1x Valorous Stance

[/deck]

I'm also testing out 4 Cloudform over Brimaz, DTT and 1 Stoke the Flames(2-2 split between SB and main then). I'm not 100% on Cloudform yet but I think it might have some promise for the future. It will be interesting to see if I can make it work or not

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/264693

Martin Juza's top 8 GP Seville list. I like it.

He completely cut the Jeskai Charms. Interesting. I am not sure how I feel about that.