Dies to Removal

I did notice this while I was reading

Let me rephrase that: have you got any way to make me "and my gang" believe your claim without having us hanging you and search your leftovers for your role PM?

And that tells you what, exactly?

Fine, I'll shoot Red. Can we just hang Rez now and end this game?

Mh, fine.
I guess that I'll use my role differently then. Does anybody want some Changeling ability?

You can still use it to help the town... Just think of it as a way to steal a power. Hit who you think is scum.

Are you kidding me?

Explain me how we could be gaining something by that.

I'll shoot Red if you give me compelling reason to ignore LMD's actions at the end of Day 1 (my strongest evidence against him being town).

The fact that LMD didn't hammer? In my experience, scum frequently hammer their buddies as a last ditch effort to grab town cred (see CM's Day 1 hammer of imopen in DERP mafia). At that point it was clear that Kaze was going down. I think LMD would have hammered if he were scum. I think Red would have hammered if he were scum (which he did).

is there someone that you wouldn't have said "i think XXX would have hammered if
he were scum"? it feels like you are making a somewhat large leap here and i don't see it as great evidence against red. iirc the deadline was fast approaching and as scum might have just tried to force a no lynch by not voting on time

explain again why we would be shooting red? i really don't think he's scum

is there someone that you wouldn't have said "i think XXX would have hammered if he were scum"? it feels like you are making a somewhat large leap here and i don't see it as great evidence against red. iirc the deadline was fast approaching and as scum might have just tried to force a no lynch by not voting on time

I didn't mean to use that as evidence against Red. It's just not evidence that LMD is scum.

explain again why we would be shooting red? i really don't think he's scum

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2762&p=244397#p244397

Who
would you rather shoot? LMD, I guess?



Anyway, if Dechs is willing to go along with my plan...

Vote rezombad.

Red, if you are town, I'd rather you not target anyone with your Changeling ability tonight.

Do you just want to get rid of the role?
Meh. I'll think about it.

Yeah, it's probably for the best. If I'm wrong about both you and rezmo (and Dechs proves his ability), we'll need to just hunt scum. While stealing someone's role at that point probably isn't a big deal, it definitely doesn't help us.

@mod: could you put up a votecount?

Red, if you are town, I'd rather you not target anyone with your Changeling ability tonight.

This is just absurd. Your wanting to vigilante kill of red is wrong. The more information we learn about players such as LMD, Rez, or stardust; the more we clea players. Scum did not kill overnight, thus they must have been stopped. I don't understand why stardust wants to lynch Rez only if DK vig shoots Red who is clearly town. Stardust would lynch Rez anyway? Why does it matter what DK does? Unless stardust is setting up DK to kill Red to avoid being set up as the next lynch for not following stardusts command. Why the catch 22 command? He wants red to not use the changeling ability on anyone and wants red gone. He is going for a 2 kill night to
catch up on on town. Confusion and unknowns is what helps scum win, thus stardust is following this route.

This entire theory completely hinges on stardust being scum or the serial killer? I don't like how he has gained control the game while he has confirmed nothing. Also, I did not get a response from the mod on my ability use for a long time. How did he get a response from the mod so fast before me? I think he lied to to pigeon hole me for red as a target. Rez is just the vehicle to getting town to follow him.

unvote

Rez May have been completely out of line, but the story thus far makes no sense for Rez and stardust to say/request what they have.
@LMD and Imopen2, what are your opinions on my thoughts? I find red to be town and stardust to be either tunneling hard or working really to hard prevent the changeling ability from targeting him.

Do you just want to get rid of the role?
Meh. I'll think about it.

Don't. It can be used as a weak cop ability on players. Don't agree on a target, keep it secret.

It only works as a rolecop if Red lives to tell the tale. You're right, I want to keep my ability. A changeling ability won't help us if the game's not over tonight.

I think Red is the most likely scum if Dechs is town. rez is second. I'm basically 100% certain that the last scum is between those two. It makes more sense to lynch rezmo and nightkill Red since we know Red has no abilities tonight. If I'm wrong on both (and Dechs proves out his nightkill) then I don't know what I'd do. Probably get lynched. But I don't think we're going to get there. Either I'm right and the game is over or I'm right and we lynch ham then the game is over. Easy.

Professor Stardust too stronk.

Like, I can understand why you guys are hesitant to trust me. I could be scum. I get it. But I led a good wagon yesterday and you have until at least Day 3 to deal with me. Maybe you won't even have to if I'm nightkilled tonight. Now I need an "even easier" button...

@ stardust, that is why I am unsure if want to follow you and have not voted you. You did get kaze on the wagon, but wanted to lynch me just as bad. Seems like you are the serial killer to me. Don't know what the hell ham is. I will vote Rez if he admits who he targeted last night. Will still learn more info even if he lies.

The better lynch targets are the unknowns. Not sold on red or DK being scum.

What do you think about LMD so far. Ham or LMD look like the busser of Kaze to me.

I will vote Rez if he admits who he targeted last night. Will still learn more info even if he lies.

Well, that's a great incentive to make Rez tell us who he targeted...

What do you think about LMD so far. Ham or LMD look like the busser of Kaze to me.

LMD didn't bus Kaze because he didn't vote Kaze.

Ham claimed neutral way too early in this game to have been smart. He should have played like you did, appearing as town as he could without revealing his alignment. His claim was not advantageous at all; I believe it. Ham's neutral. So are you. I don't care whether you say "self-aligned." It's neutral to town or scum. You don't care who wins as long as you're alive at the end. That's neutral. I'm going to keep calling it that.

Stardust is not a Serial Killer; this game doesn't have one. Look at what we know so far: Mafia team, I'm a Vig, and there was no night kill. So, two kills got foiled. Roleblock and probably a doctor. You want me to believe that there was somehow a third!? Fuck no.

I thought LMD voted kaze? Damn, you are right. Never mind.

By you logic, we should be lynching ham then? I will vote for ham. Do you still think Rez is scum. After a re-read on checking LMD as you found, I am not sure Rez is scum. He could have stopped the NK. If you were scum; I think the disabler would have stopped you as we'll if you are scum. I can't tell if you are pulling a page out of my book by questioning the no night kill or are town trying solve the game?

@ stardust, that is why I am unsure if want to follow you and have not voted you. You did get kaze on the wagon, but wanted to lynch me just as bad. Seems like you are the serial killer to me. Don't know what the hell ham is. I will vote Rez if he admits who he targeted last night. Will still learn more info even if he lies.

You're acting differently this game. That's why I voted you. You weren't acting like a townie, but when I tried to put that into words to push against you, I realised you weren't scum, and therefore called you town. Turns out I was right about you too - you're not town. I don't know why you don't understand this thought process.

The better lynch targets are the unknowns. Not sold on red or DK being scum.

What do you think about LMD so far. Ham or LMD look like the busser of Kaze to me.

LMD is not an unknown to me. I really think he's town which I've said several times now. hammy is also not an unknown - he's a neutral, possibly serial killer, but that can get sorted later.

rezmo is the only unknown in this game, so I guess I agree with you.

Here's a question for you: Why do you think Red is town?

Wraith:

You keep trying to get me lynched, but that's a waste of town's time, and a waste of your time if you're looking to ally with town in their hunt for scum.

They should be going after scum, not trading one of their own for my life.

You already disabled me, so I can't possibly perform a scum NK or vig anyone, so what are you worried about?

By you logic, we should be lynching ham then?

How did you get there with my logic? He's neutral. He's the same as you. You're not scum. We need to hang scum. We don't need to hang Ham.

I can't tell if you are pulling a page out of my book by questioning the no night kill or are town trying solve the game?

Have you read anything I've said so far? Honest question.

I started this day trying to solve backwards from no night kill. I was eliminating people from a list of scum suspects, trying to find the one or two that I wasn't sure of. My list narrowed down to
Rez and LMD as the only possibilities. Stardust agrees with Rez, not with LMD, and suggests Red as the other. I'm on board with that, because I'm pretty sure this game is over when we hang Rez.

Lord_Mcdonalds, what are your thoughts on all this?

Think you guys are right. That Texas hot sun is getting to me. It is true that Ham has claim neutral, but we don't that for sure. It bothers me that we are going after a guy who picked town and a strong town ability. Although Rez could have seriously lied on the whole thing. I don't have any other scum reads.

vote rezombad

To answer stardusts question on red, I find that red is town based his ability I stole (day use only), he claimed to have shut down DK, and Kaze was on his ass way early game. I can't find a reason for a bussing that early in the game. The interaction between red and DK also strengthens my call as there can only be one scum left unless we are wrong on the number of scum in this game.
What is the dead
What is the deadline? Can we get it in our own local standard time?

Lord_Mcdonalds, what are your thoughts on all this?

Will answer after I finish bleaching porch/watching international

To answer stardusts question on red, I find that red is town based his ability I stole (day use only), he claimed to have shut down DK, and Kaze was on his ass way early game. I can't find a reason for a bussing that early in the game. The interaction between red and DK also strengthens my call as there can only be one scum left unless we are wrong on the number of scum in this game.

There aren't 3 mafia. It's impossible. There's, like, a 1% chance that Kaze was the only scum, but I think it's a very safe bet to assume he had one partner.

I guess you think Roleblocker is a super townie ability because that's what you rolled in your first town game, but it's much more common as a scum ability. There's also the fact that Red's ability is
a perfect counter to mine (which is otherwise extremely difficult to prevent). The fact that he targeted DK is a point against him, if anything.

Kaze was on his ass, but not really how I would have expected Kaze to go after a townie. He never made a case. He never really tried to convince anyone other than to say, "Vote him guize, for realzzz". That one post where Kaze treats him differently was weird. That other post where Kaze calls a couple of his posts townie, but then forgets it later was weird. I think Kaze was just trying to distance himself from his buddy for exactly the reasons you're running into here - so that you think he's not his buddy. That's the reason. He didn't want to lynch Red, he just wanted to distance himself from Red.

DK and Red had some interactions, but what about them made you think that Red's town?

What is the deadline? Can we get it in our own local standard time?

Deadline's the 30th, nine days away. We've got lots of time, but long days kill town motivation if we're not using the time for something. If you'd like to wait because you need specific answers, that's fine. But there's no reason to delay if everyone's happy with where we're at. I'd rather noone hammer until we get LMD"s reply, but otherwise I'm about ready to end the day. rezombad should probably claim somewhere along the way, but that probably won't change anything for me.

To answer stardusts question on red, I find that red is town based his ability I stole (day use only), he claimed to have shut down DK, and Kaze was on his ass way early game. I can't find a reason for a bussing that early in the game. The interaction between red and DK also strengthens my call as there can only be one scum left unless we are wrong on the number of scum in this game.

There aren't 3 mafia. It's impossible. There's, like, a 1% chance that Kaze was the only scum, but I think it's a very safe bet to assume he had one partner.

We possibly have 2
neutrals and god knows what else. More than scum seems viable.

I guess you think Roleblocker is a super townie ability because that's what you rolled in your first town game, but it's much more common as a scum ability. There's also the fact that Red's ability is a perfect counter to mine (which is otherwise extremely difficult to prevent). The fact that he targeted DK is a point against him, if anything.

I looked it up when building my game. You gave me Roleblock in theros though and I was town. I tried to resell the role again in gone postal. The town I needed to deceive believed it. What about jailers and disablers? Day use seems town legit to me. Does any prevent ability use sound scum to you? Control does sound scummy as most blue players are.

Kaze was on his ass, but not really how I would have expected Kaze to go after a townie. He never made a case.
He never really tried to convince anyone other than to say, "Vote him guize, for realzzz". That one post where Kaze treats him differently was weird. That other post where Kaze calls a couple of his posts townie, but then forgets it later was weird. I think Kaze was just trying to distance himself from his buddy for exactly the reasons you're running into here - so that you think he's not his buddy. That's the reason. He didn't want to lynch Red, he just wanted to distance himself from Red.

looking at the re-read, I can see where you get that theory. Yeh, kaze was weird in a few posts of aggressive fast, then passive the next. I have a hard time reading kaze. On the flip side, I used LMD and other players to wagon anything that legitimately looked scummy or protected them reduce the mover and shakers influence. It was a hard call that landed a big fish, thus Ivan go one more day with a Rez plan. If DK does not kill red and hits someone else; we should look at him,
but be open minded if 2 kills occur. The problem is that if scum decides to be silent again, DK is under scrutiny by scum just being inactive. If dodging or prevent kills is an issue; why not kill Ham? Oh wait, we have 3 prevent ability players: ham, red, and Rez. Does hams ability appear unbalanced if he is scum. If someone targets him with vigilante; a towny should get killed. That would another town down instead of a NK. It is a serious gamble. Not trying to run a ham wagon again, but I would to hear everyone's opinion of which prevent ability of the three is town or scum. Might get everyone on the same page that way.

DK and Red had some interactions, but what about them made you think that Red's town?

i know that red could have prevented DK's ability. Day use screams town to me. Rez's claimed ability sounds similar to buss driver in a way, but temp kidnaping instead. Ham's ability is a cheap dodge the bullet ability that really looks scummy, but could
be looked at as a self aligned ability. It depends on how could ham sells the tale. Back to red, would scum admit to being changelinged? Red plays nothing like me and I can't see him using the truth as a weapon like I do.

What is the deadline? Can we get it in our own local standard time?

Deadline's the 30th, nine days away. We've got lots of time, but long days kill town motivation if we're not using the time for something. If you'd like to wait because you need specific answers, that's fine. But there's no reason to delay if everyone's happy with where we're at. I'd rather noone hammer until we get LMD"s reply, but otherwise I'm about ready to end the day. rezombad should probably claim somewhere along the way, but that probably won't change anything for me.

Rez already
claimed.

Red's ability being day use is precisely why I think it's a scum ability. If it wasn't Day use, it wouldn't be able to affect me. I think Pie put that role in here as a counter to mine.

rezmo hasn't claimed. He told us what he chose (which could very easily be a lie).

Stardust For the love of fucking god change the color in your name that is fucking readable on pro silver, FOR FUCKS SAKE

Between Stardust nick's new color and the way Wraith colours his quotes I'll end up gouging my eyes out.

That aside, I like the wagon on Rez, his post accusing Dechs of WiFom comes off as mudslinging, and he wants to lynch non-town for some reason (which I don't per se disagree with but based on the info we have currently, Ham and Wraith have no reason not to try and win with us, I would think anyways).

as for who dechs should shoot, I want him to shoot Imopen (my current scum read), I guess red is fine though, need to grok that one some more

Red, if you are town, I'd rather you not target anyone with your Changeling ability tonight.

This is just absurd. Your wanting to vigilante kill of red is wrong. The more information we learn about players such as LMD, Rez, or stardust; the more we clea players. Scum did not kill overnight, thus they must have been stopped. I don't understand why stardust wants to lynch Rez only if DK vig shoots Red who is clearly town. Stardust would lynch Rez anyway? Why does it matter what DK does? Unless stardust is setting up DK to kill Red to avoid being set up as the next lynch for not
following stardusts command. Why the catch 22 command? He wants red to not use the changeling ability on anyone and wants red gone. He is going for a 2 kill night to catch up on on town. Confusion and unknowns is what helps scum win, thus stardust is following this route.

This entire theory completely hinges on stardust being scum or the serial killer? I don't like how he has gained control the game while he has confirmed nothing. Also, I did not get a response from the mod on my ability use for a long time. How did he get a response from the mod so fast before me? I think he lied to to pigeon hole me for red as a target. Rez is just the vehicle to getting town to follow him.

unvote

Rez May have been completely out of line, but the story thus far makes no sense for Rez and stardust to say/request what they have.
@LMD and Imopen2, what are your opinions on my thoughts? I find red to be town and stardust to be either tunneling hard or working really to hard prevent the
changeling ability from targeting him.

- Given the nature of this game, it wouldn't surprise me if the scum didn't have the night kill for some reason but speculating on what we don't know and trying to make decisions from there isn't the best course of action

- Sure scum win by the town not coordinating but stardust has largely been doing just that so far, coordinating the town and I am inclined to believe him, there is a distinct possibility he bussed kaze day 1 and is trying to ride the wave of town cred to victory but we don't have enough to think that and I feel that can wait until day 3/4...him defending me is a tad generous though.

- Yeah that is odd, although honestly, my only thought regarding that is maybe he is trying to account for the distinct possibility of Dechs shooting me/someone else

- Hard to speculate whether Dust is lying about the mod, we could say that but there amount of WiFoM involved with that is immense

What makes Red clearly town to you?

Also bro, you worded it wrong should've been "thoughts on my thoughts"

Thought-ception

DISCLAIMER: after editing four times the first 2 lines of this post I realized I don't really care for grammar at 4.15 AM, so please take into account the fact that I'm a sleeping italian while you read this.

So, I've put a certain amount of thought into the matter and I've decided that just handing the game to Stardust hoping he's town is wrong on so many levels that I can't really even recap.

What strikes me the most, though, is that even though we had the chance of abusing my very informative role, he just doesn't care - he just wants to control the flow of the game and he's giving priority to that rather than trying to squeeze info from it.

Starting from that, I reread Stardust from the begining and, well...
I don't like the fact that he started out by voting me by barning Kaze, then started massaging my belly for how town I was, then started accusing me of being Kaze'
s buddy because I didn't feel threatened by Kaze's aggression, even though Kaze's always like that on Day 1, even though this imopen2 post pretty much sums up everything one should say about him.
Also, I don't know how purposefully he's ignoring the fact that I was very invested on the other game I was playing during most of Day 1, up to the point that I effectively missed being at L-1 at one point - from when Gone Postal ended, there has been effectively no wagon on me, so I don't really get why I should have been that bothered by a player that just seemed to have lost all kind of motivation back then.

Now, things get awry.
Stardust jumps out of nowhere with this unexpected moment of brilliance, followed up shortly by this
exchange, to which Kaze answers immediately in a sarcastic way then disappears ABRUPTLY AND FOREVER from the whole site.
That's not *that* bad, people have real lives and things and I hope Kaze is good and all, but the way Stardust follows up with a set of posts explicitly stating that he's not going to want for an answer makes me think that he knew what was up and was desperate to throw him under the bus in order to squeeze some value from his departure, given the fact that he would have gone on playing alone anyway.
Because, you know, "Sporadic play + results = townie Stardust. Sporadic play + no results = scary Stardust.".

He even starts setting me up asking Kaze to case me (whoops! he never did, that makes me his buddy!), and asking me [url=viewtopic.php?p=243305#p243305]who I considered scummier between Kaze and Wraith[/url:
3qu6jny7], a player that we both, correctly, labeled as non-town.

Then, he set his trap. I said a couple of times I felt uneasy by the way he barned me as I was reminiscent of KNM when he played me like a puppet, and he suddenly went from "oh Red, you so town" to having me 100% scum, backing up his claims with what I should / shouldn't have done even though I've always been fully honest, imaginary interactions between my old role and his not claimed role that make mine 100% scum (just believe me, guyz), closing with him wanting me to NOT use my role for investigative purposes because I need to die tonight for his plans.
Except that if he really believed the last scum to be one between me, DK and rez he could also ask for Wraith to roleblock DK rather than ham and set up rez while waiting for my results, lynch me tomorrow to confirm my results and act accordingly.
What's the difference here? Speed.
If he's wrong (purposefully or not) we go from 5-2-1 to 2-2-1 (mislynch + DK's guided
nightkill + scumkill) and we enter a situation where ham and Wraith can just not vote each other and pretty much win without ever bother helping town anymore if I got this setup right.

Forgive me if I'm not too happy with the idea of handing the game over to him and quietly disappear hoping to be wrong all along.
I'd rather try to actively win this game rather than die with my fingers crossed hoping that someone else can win such game for me.

Vote Stardust

i'm pretty sure i started the kaze wagon and then you jumped on second, stardust...and yet, you keep taking credit for it (as town i haven't really felt the need other than to say "i told you so" when i was high). i also feel like you changed your opinion on wraith when me and a couple other people (?) stated we thought he was town...

i definitely don't want to put the game in your hands right now. you've been getting people to claim left and right, you are directing power roles, and dictating plans that involve vigging someone that many of your "fellow" townies believe to be town.

i'm pretty comfortable voting you or LMD toDay.

Unvote

Vote: Stardust

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