R/b Aggro aka "Dos Rakis"

[Valdarith]

Shes good with all the burn spells and the haste is very welcome. 18 red sources is enough to cast her. I wouldn't necessarily replace Phoenix with her though.

Also, regarding Hammer of Purphoros, we could also just play Pack Rat like Zem alluded to.

This is tricky because we could go so many different directions with this deck but it's hard to figure out which is best.

[Purp]

PTQ this Saturday, narrowing it between this and a burn variant. I love the synergy of this deck. But the BW matchup is really tough G1. Pretty much no way to answer BBv or obzedar unless we 2 for 1 with burn.

[zemanjaski]

I'd go with something more settled than this - so much work is needed here, even if the core concept is good (and that's not certain either).

[LP, of the Fires]

Agree. If you're looking to play a red deck, I'd either play Devotion red(any of the previous placing decks; we didn't gain anything from BNG but didn't get hurt badly either) or burn.

[LaZerBurn]

Here is the Pre-BnG list I was testing

MDU's Nothing Cute Br Aggro

---

[deck=MDU's Nothing Cute Br Aggro]Lands 24
9 Mountain
5 Swamp
4 Blood Crypt
4 Rakdos Guildgate
2 Mutavault

Creatures 18
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Spike Jester
4 Chandra's Phoenix
3 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
3 Stormbreath Dragon

Planeswalkers 2
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Spells 16
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
3 Shock
3 Dreadbore
2 Ultimate Price

Sideboard 15
1 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Madcap Skills
2 Mizzium Mortars
3 Dark Betrayal
3 Doom Blade
4 Skullcrack[/deck]

Once BnG hit I'll cut -1x Swamp, -1x Mountain and -2x Rakdos Guildgate for 4x Temple of Malice and 2x Madcap Skills and 1x Stormbreath Dragon for 3x Flame-
Wreathed Phoenix (swapping 2x Chandra, Pyromaster for 2x Flame-Wreathed Phoenix MD).

You can't run 5 FWP MDU

[DerWille]

Here is the Pre-BnG list I was testing

[deck=MDU's Nothing Cute Br Aggro]Lands 24
9 Mountain
5 Swamp
4 Blood Crypt
4 Rakdos Guildgate
2 Mutavault

Creatures 18
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Spike Jester
4 Chandra's Phoenix
3 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
3 Stormbreath Dragon

Planeswalkers 2
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Spells 16
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
3 Shock
3 Dreadbore
2 Ultimate Price

Sideboard 15
1 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Madcap Skills
2 Mizzium Mortars
3 Dark Betrayal
3 Doom Blade
4 Skullcrack[/deck]

Once BnG hit I'll cut -1x Swamp, -1x Mountain and -2x Rakdos Guildgate for 4x Temple of Malice and 2x Madcap Skills and 1x Stormbreath Dragon for 3x Flame-Wreathed Phoenix (swapping 2x Chandra, Pyromaster for 2x Flame-Wreathed Phoenix
MD).

Standard Elimination Report (Event 6705677)
Standard Elimination R1 Rb Aggro vs Bx Devotion Event 6705677
Standard Elimination R2 Rb Aggro vs UW Control Event 6705677
Standard Elimination R3 Rb Aggro vs Gr Devotion Event 6705677

I tested the list with your changes against mono-black with a friend. It's hard to say how effective it was because I had constant mana issues (I think due to it being recently created and not shuffled rather than deck construction) but I did
notice a few things.

Shock felt like the weakest card in the deck. I'm guessing these are in there for phoenix recursion and first strike tricks with Exava. When I was playing it I kept thinking that I would rather have had a kill spell than shock. How have they been for you? If you were to get rid of them, what card would you replace them with? Maybe something like ultimate price, hero's downfall, mizzium mortars, or something else?

Exava seems to be an all star. She dodges a lot of removal, has haste, and hits like a truck.

Big phoenix is odd. Not sure how I feel about the card yet. Do you bring more in against black or do you try to lower the curve and become more susceptible to drown in sorrow?

I think this deck has legs, but I'd like to get a few more test games in. Hopefully where I'm not losing to my own mana every game.

[hoeiberg]

Here is the Pre-BnG list I was testing

[deck=MDU's Nothing Cute Br Aggro]Lands 24
9 Mountain
5 Swamp
4 Blood Crypt
4 Rakdos Guildgate
2 Mutavault

Creatures 18
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Spike Jester
4 Chandra's Phoenix
3 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
3 Stormbreath Dragon

Planeswalkers 2
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Spells 16
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
3 Shock
3 Dreadbore
2 Ultimate Price

Sideboard 15
1 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Madcap Skills
2 Mizzium Mortars
3 Dark Betrayal
3 Doom Blade
4 Skullcrack[/deck]

Once BnG hit I'll cut -1x Swamp, -1x Mountain and -2x Rakdos Guildgate for 4x Temple of Malice and 2x Madcap Skills and 1x Stormbreath Dragon for 3x Flame-Wreathed Phoenix (swapping 2x Chandra, Pyromaster for 2x Flame-Wreathed Phoenix
MD).

Standard Elimination Report (Event 6705677)
Standard Elimination R1 Rb Aggro vs Bx Devotion Event 6705677
Standard Elimination R2 Rb Aggro vs UW Control Event 6705677
Standard Elimination R3 Rb Aggro vs Gr Devotion Event 6705677

Deck looks dope! Sleeving it up and taking it to FNM next time i go (sadly not this week). One question though: Why are you booting chandra from main? Is she lacking power in the meta? And what match ups would you board her in for (only aggro or
also control)?

[MattT]

I like your analysis, I don't disagree.

But I do think that defensive generated ca is fine when you can eventually convert it into offense.

And necro is very offensive vs. Sweepers.

Thanks Zem. To elaborate after some thinking.

Necro doesn´t add offensive pressure in comparison to Smith, because an untapped Necro does not present much of a threat by itself. An untapped Smith cross table otoh means you cannot tap down your blockers without building up the pressure on yourself. Necro doesn´t raise pressure on you. It keeps the same level. Thus does time work better for us with Smith.

Their choice 1 is to do nothing but block at which point our removal, target saturation through tag teaming with Pain Seer or
flying over with Phoenix wins. Choice 2 is to race by attacking themselves where most likely they face death in three turns without us playing a single card.

Which is worse? Facing down a Pain Seer and a Necro incoming or a Pain Seer and a Smith? In the first case you block or remove the Seer and take 2 for them gaining a 2/2. In the second you either go -1 ca or they gain a 3/1. Further the latter scenario is online T3 whereas the former T4.

The crux is sweepers. My thinking there is that you must have played 2 cards to get value from Necro vs Sweepers. With Smith the second card doesn´t need to be on the table, thus are sweepers not different than spot removal in a sense.

That said Necro buys time which can turn into offensive power too. It´s just that YP$ and Phoenix already does this making a Necro looking a tad redundant imho.

[magicdownunder]

@DerWille: IMO if your going to run 8 "terrors' MD you might as well play Bx Devotion or Junk, I added the Flame-Wreathed Phoenix is for the Gx, WBu and Ux MUs its not that great vs Bx but it isn't horrible - in theory post board vs Bx Devotion SBD is strong since 4x DB come rather then DB or Price (I wouldn't keep the FWP vs Bx).

Shock is underrated in standard, it great when combine with other spells for finishing creatures and it deals direct damage.

@hoeiberg: Control and x/1 builds.

@LaZerBurn: Only 3x FWP, its just the MD/SB set-up with Chandra changes from my post BnG list

[Valdarith]

Revisiting PyroSeer (as I shall henceforth refer to it as):

[deck]
Creatures (23)
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Tormented Hero
4 Pain Seer
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Xathrid Necromancer
3 Herald of Torment

Spells (15)
4 Thoughtseize
4 Dreadbore
1 Ultimate Price
3 Bile Blight
3 Hero's Downfall

Lands (22)
4 Temple of Malice
4 Blood Crypt
2 Mutavault
2 Mountain
10 Swamp
[/deck]

I think going base black gives the deck a bit more power. You lose Chandra's Phoenix but you gain Herald of Torment, Hero's Downfall, and Bile Blight. You're basically splashing red for Young Pyromancer and Dreadbore in the main, which allows you to run a lower amount of red sources and a couple of Mutavault. You also get to cast Thoughtseize on curve a lot more frequently.

[Pedros]

Ok here is my question. Is having necromancer so good when you can just play lifebane zombie? Human subtheme is really slim in this build.

I send msg to lazer that what I needed in mono black agro was a little bit reach. I think this deck also would love to have some amount of burn, not all terrors. Or tymaret / barage of the expendables to finish last points of damage.

I like having yp in splash colors as often we dont like to cast it without value. Question is if both pain seer and yp are better than pack rats (without mutavaults probably true)

How many thoughtseizes/removal is needed to pain seer being better than thrill-kill assasin?

[Valdarith]

Pedros - lack of reach is just a consequence of heavy black as you have said. Being red mages, we're pampered by our burn spells so we tend to overreact when we don't have them. I think it's fine here because the majority of our terrors actually aren't dead in any matchup due to most of them being able to hit walkers. In my latest build I decided to go with Bile Blight over Lightning Strike. This not only reduces our dependence on red sources but Bile Blight also outperforms Lightning Strike in combat since it can shrink x/4s and allow our creatures to survive unscathed.

Regarding Lifebane Zombie vs Xathrid Necromancer, I feel the latter is better positioned against the field than the former. Lifebane Zombie simply reads 3/1 unblockable against mono blue and UWx and is just a 3/1 against mono black! Those are the three best decks in the format right now and that's simply unacceptable to me. This deck should have a
decent G/R matchup preboard due to all the terrors.

As for Pyromancer vs Pack Rat, I happen to think the former is better here even with Mutavault because it requires less mana investment and can create a larger board presence more quickly while reducing blowout from Detention Sphere. It does have the downside of being much weaker to Jace but again, we're running 7 effects that can kill planeswalkers plus Thoughtseize.

Upon further review, I really like this list. Maybe we want 1-2 Exava in here? I could see -1 Herald, -1 Ultimate Price for +2 Exava.

Going heavy black also gives you one hell of a sideboard:

[deck]PyroSeer sideboard[/deck]

vs UWx control: -1 Ultimate Price, -3 Bile Blight, +3 Duress, +1 Slaughter Games. Yep.

vs G/R Monsters: -4 Tormented Hero, -3 Bile Blight, +1 Ultimate Price, +2 Doom Blade, +3 Lifebane Zombie, +1 Mutavault. This
match is a breeze preboard and a downright laugher postboard.

vs Mono Blue Devotion: -4 Tormented Hero, +1 Ultimate Price, +2 Doom Blade, +1 Bile Blight. Another good matchup.

vs Mono Black: -3 Bile Blight, +3 Dark Betrayal. I think this matchup is ~55-60% pre and postboard. We basically trade Bile Blights with Dark Betrayals and our spells can kill every creature on their board.

vs R/x aggro: same as Mono Blue Devotion match.

vs R/x burn: -3 Hero's Downfall, +3 Duress. I feel like this could be a bad matchup for this deck that improves slightly postboard with seven discard effects, but is still sub-50%.

[rcwraspy]

looking good Val, but I think you want Mizzium Mortars in your board. I think a lot of black decks will still try to force white and Blood Baron, which your deck is completely dead against save for Thoughtseize and Pyromancer, tokens, and Mutavault chumps.

[LaZerBurn]

I like the list Val, especially with the SB plan you've outlined. There is plenty of scope for personal preference too - Strikes over Dreadbore Pedros? Please note I'm not saying this is better, or worse, just that the deck shell has some room for manoeuvre

[Valdarith]

Wraspy: Lifebane Zombie for Blood Baron out of the board.

[LP, of the Fires]

I'd play mainboard lifebane zombie. Card does so much.

Matchup comparison time

UW control:

Xathrid necromancer can blank supreme verdict but also doesn't dodge last breath.

Lifebane zombie: dodges last breath, and more importantly reasonably clocks jace on certain board states. Also can assassinate elspeth. Peeking at there hand is also ABSURDLY USEFUL.

Verdict? Necro's actually the higher variance card because it relies on your opponent having certain things to be good vs. not good. Lifebane zombie on the other hand lets you know what the opponent does have and gives you play options.

Vs. Monoblack:

Necro is straight up better. By a lot.

vs. mono-blue:

I'd say necromancer doesn't really do much. Blue doesn't really kill your creatures and most of there things have evasion so it's not like you'
re making combat hard for them.

Zombie is unblockable which is probably way better. Looking at the hand is useful, not amazing, but it's free which is awesome and zombie flies past master of waves when you don't have the answer.

G/R monsters:

Zombie way better.

Tl;Dr: I think you underestimate lifebane and overvalue xathrid. The only reason I'd give xathrid the nod would be for color restriction purposes and that's a non-issue here. I'd say the 2 cards are close to even vs. the top 3 decks, but zombie is way better vs. everything else and would go with zombie in that slot.

[zemanjaski]

If you can reasonably cast it I think Lifebane is much better.

[Pedros]

Zombie is also good vs black as they probably will go to Bw for barons. Striping Baron or Obzedat is quite good.
Also lifebane zombie trades with specter, which is huge. Dont really like to have too many 2/2s in deck.

Question time: How many thoughtseizes/removal is needed to pain seer being better than thrill-kill assasin? (If we still want to play pack rats in black based shell)

[LP, of the Fires]

Odd though very good question as nigga's be sleepin' on thrill-kill. Card is very underated and has been constructed playable for most of it's time in standard in my humble opinion.

I think if you're deck can reasonably expect your pain seer to draw 2/3 cards, you'd rather take that over thrill-kill, but there's a LOT of variables to take into consideration.

[Pedros]

@Val

I know terrors are better most of the time, but black deck sometimes has trouble of closing the game. I was so despered that I used 3 ultimate prices on my tormented hero to burn last 3 damage, and if op had anything he would kill me.

Btw how many if any Ereboses in sb? Can be turned (quite easy with with zombie or demon). Lifegain prevention is one, but draw is what I like mostly. Being creature is just a bonus.

[Valdarith]

I did forget about Lifebane dodging Last Breath. That's a big deal. I like that Necromancer discourages sweepers like Verdict and Drown in Sorrow. Maybe I'm just waxing nostalgic due to its awesomeness in the Aristocrats last season. Lifebane can be pretty powerful...

Thrill-kill is very good but I want value in this list and Pyromancer delivers on that front. I think he helps solve some of the reach issues some are referring to.

I'm not sure Erebos in side is where this list wants to be.

[MattC]

Mogis Marauder seems like it would have a lot of synergy in any Pain Seer based aggressive deck.

[LaZerBurn]

[deck=Another Br Aggro List ]Lands 24
4 Mountain
8 Swamp
4 Blood Crypt
4 Temple Of Malice
2 Rakdos Guildgate
2 Mutavault

Creatures 18
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Spike Jester
4 Herald of Torment
3 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
3 Stormbreath Dragon

Spells 18
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
2 Bile Blight
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hero's Downfall

Sideboard 15
3 Lifebane Zombie
2 Mizzium Mortars
3 Dark Betrayal
3 Doom Blade
4 Skullcrack[/deck]
Yet another Br variant here! Thoughts anyone?

[soebek]

[quote="Valdarith » Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:42 pm"]Revisiting PyroSeer (as I shall henceforth refer to it as):

[deck]
Creatures (23)
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Tormented Hero
4 Pain Seer
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Xathrid Necromancer
3 Herald of Torment

Spells (15)
4 Thoughtseize
4 Dreadbore
1 Ultimate Price
3 Bile Blight
3 Hero's Downfall

Lands (22)
4 Temple of Malice
4 Blood Crypt
2 Mutavault
2 Mountain
10 Swamp
[/deck]

I think going base black gives the deck a bit more power. You lose Chandra's Phoenix but you gain Herald of Torment, Hero's Downfall, and Bile Blight. You're basically splashing red for Young Pyromancer and Dreadbore in the main, which allows you to run a lower amount of red sources and a couple of Mutavault. You also get to cast Thoughtseize on curve a lot more frequently.[/quote:
3mux7f9y]

I was considering a black humans list that plays well with Xathrid Necromancer, and our lists look very similar. I hadn't considered a red splash for Pyromancer though (just Exava), so that's interesting. Other cards I considered were [card]Mogis's Marauder[/card] and potentially Rakdos Shred-Freak. Both are humans, which synergises with the Necromancer, and both are pretty decent cards in their own right for an aggro deck. The Marauder particularly can really help an alpha strike late on by unexpectedly giving everything intimidate (and haste, too!). Obviously, I'd rather run Ashley than the Shred-Freak but RR is too much to ask of a primarily black deck.

[photodyer]

Val - Maybe I'm being too conservative here, but it seems to me that the PyroSeer lists is at odds with itself. On the one hand, it's a list that's designed to grind rather than push for an early win; on the other, fully 25% of the cards in the deck are leveraging your life, while only one awkward combo provides potential (small) life gain. I would guess that in more games than not, you're going to end up effectively killing yourself. Just thinking of a typical "working" hand on the play:

Blood Crypt (untapped) > Thoughtseize > Swamp > Pain Seer > land > terror their dude, swing in with Seer > untap with Seer, reveal Herald

You're at 13 with 2 power on the field and even on cards (up if you were on the draw); they're at 18 and haven't even attacked in. You have a flyer in-hand, but he's gonna cost you more life each turn and you are already at a disadvantage. If you're forced to
drop another untapped Crypt or take another hit off Seer, life sucks. I know this is an oversimplification, but I don't think that MBD, MUD, Monsters and aggro are going to give you room to do this. MBD is going to kill your stuff right back, hit a beater of their own and turn your game against you.

Again, I fully admit to looking at this from a theorycrafting perspective rather than experience, but I think it's too suicidal. I wish it were not so, as I love it conceptually, but that's what I see. Compare it to Sean Rice's Seer list from Nashville:


[deck]Black Aggro by Sean Rice[/deck]

He's getting
the benefits of Seer without the splash and without sacrificing board presence. I don't think that you can justify the extra costs of playing red with YP$ and Dreadbore...you give up to much to get too little.

[hoeiberg]

[deck=Another Br Aggro List ]Lands 24
4 Mountain
8 Swamp
4 Blood Crypt
4 Temple Of Malice
2 Rakdos Guildgate
2 Mutavault

Creatures 18
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Spike Jester
4 Herald of Torment
3 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
3 Stormbreath Dragon

Spells 18
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
2 Bile Blight
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hero's Downfall

Sideboard 15
3 Lifebane Zombie
2 Mizzium Mortars
3 Dark Betrayal
3 Doom Blade
4 Skullcrack[/deck]
Yet another Br variant here! Thoughts anyone?

Before I say anything about the list I will say that I am not a very experienced player or deck builder so take everything with more than one grain of salt. That said your
list seems good, I like how Herald smashed Nightveil Specter's ugly face, you removal package also seems stronger that the one you get with Rb. My problem with you list, (from a personal point of view) is that it gives up on Chandra's Phoenix. In a meta that is flooded with spot removal a recurring, hasty flying threat just seems too good to give up. Also being able to run Chandra seems like a big plus for the red list. IDK, maybe your list will turn out to be better

[LaZerBurn]

Before I say anything about the list I will say that I am not a very experienced player or deck builder so take everything with more than one grain of salt. That said your list seems good, I like how Herald smashed Nightveil Specter's ugly face, you removal package also seems stronger that the one you get with Rb. My problem with you list, (from a personal point of view) is that it gives up on Chandra's Phoenix. In a meta that is flooded with spot removal a recurring, hasty flying threat just seems too good to give up. Also being able to run Chandra seems like a big plus for the red list. IDK, maybe your
list will turn out to be better

You're correct, essentially the lists swaps Phoenix (and I love Phoenix) for Herald and easier mana for HDF. You can get some recursive value from if you bestow it and it dodges LB which I like but truth be told I don't know if it's better, guess I'm going to have to splash out on some B cards and find out!

[Valdarith]

Val - Maybe I'm being too conservative here, but it seems to me that the PyroSeer lists is at odds with itself. On the one hand, it's a list that's designed to grind rather than push for an early win; on the other, fully 25% of the cards in the deck are leveraging your life, while only one awkward combo provides potential (small) life gain. I would guess that in more games than not, you're going to end up effectively killing yourself. Just thinking of a typical "working" hand on the play:

Blood Crypt (untapped) > Thoughtseize > Swamp > Pain Seer > land > terror their dude, swing in with Seer > untap with Seer, reveal Herald

You're at 13 with 2 power on the field and even on cards (up if you were on the draw); they're at 18
and haven't even attacked in. You have a flyer in-hand, but he's gonna cost you more life each turn and you are already at a disadvantage. If you're forced to drop another untapped Crypt or take another hit off Seer, life sucks. I know this is an oversimplification, but I don't think that MBD, MUD, Monsters and aggro are going to give you room to do this. MBD is going to kill your stuff right back, hit a beater of their own and turn your game against you.

Again, I fully admit to looking at this from a theorycrafting perspective rather than experience, but I think it's too suicidal. I wish it were not so, as I love it conceptually, but that's what I see. Compare it to Sean Rice's Seer list from Nashville:


[deck]Black Aggro by Sean Rice[/deck]

He's getting the benefits of Seer without the splash and without sacrificing board presence. I don't think that you can justify the extra costs of playing red with YP$ and Dreadbore...you give up to much to get too little.

I don't think your concerns are unreasonable, but I do think they are a bit conservative (which is funny because I regard myself as being a pretty conservative deckbuilder). There's certainly a lot of punishment in a deck with Thoughtseize, Herald, Pain Seer, and shocks. I think this puts a greater dependence on pilot skill though because you have to sequence your spells and lands exactly while balancing your life total.

The one thing you're failing to account for with your example is just how good Thoughtseize is. Getting that turn one hand information and picking out any nonland card we want is HUGE, and I would
gladly sit at 13 to be in that position against any deck. We can pick out one of their early plays and have them do nothing for a couple of turns only to be forced to play a fatty into our terrors and then they're REALLY behind. In this regard, I find the deck plays a lot like a tempo deck that slowly eats at your opponent's life total while controlling the board. This is obviously unfavorable to burn decks but we can't have every matchup be a good one.

What I feel really puts the deck over the top is that you're running both Pain Seer and Young Pyromancer. Take your example and this time substitute Young Pyromancer in the place of Pain Seer. Now how is that situation? You don't draw the extra card from Pain Seer, but you have one extra power on the board. The two cards generate such similar value that playing Pyromancer is like having Pain Seer 5-8 or vice-versa. That's the key advantage the deck has over mono black aggro.

Now, we certainly give up mana consistency and speed to your posted deck.
But let's have a more objective analysis to weigh the pros and cons:

1) We are running four Dreadbore. This is huge because we get to run four extra terrors that are also never dead in any matchup since they kill walkers. Do you know how stupid Mono Black Devotion feels in game one against UW control running all those terrors? Dreadbore alleviates this.
2) We are running fewer three drops. The downside to the mono black list is that it is incredibly top heavy. This makes the curve a bit awkward and the hits from Pain Seer hurt a little worse. It almost makes up for the lack of shocks in his list. Just think of how bad it gets when he sides in those Necromancers!
3) We have significantly less speed, but we generate more value over time. This makes our control matchup a bit worse but every other matchup much more favorable.
4) We run a larger and more powerful spell suite, which gives us more answers and allows us more flexibility in our Thoughtseize targets.

Here's the list I was goldfishing last
night (I just missed you, LP):

[deck]Val test list[/deck]

Without having played actual games I can't comment on it much, but I did notice the reach issue. I think that can be alleviated with more speed though. Rakdos Shred-Freak and Spike Jester immediately come to mind, but the latter would probably come at the expense of Mutavault.

Moving Lifebane Zombie to the main meant I could make room for 4x Pharika's Cure which helps immensely in the red matchup.

[Pedros]

So many good ideas in this thread.

I really like you list Lazer, reminds me of Dos Packis , however without rats and with much more removal in this spot. I would really like to see some dreadbores here - notice you only have 4 real terrors for bigger stuff like demon, dragon, even frostborn weird can only be killed by hero's downfall.

As for your list Val, I can see YP and Pain Seer working together really well. Both cards gives you a lot of value, which is especially important in grinding meta. I will point out the obvious - similar to mono black deck I played this deck doesn't have reach. Red gives you amazing burn spells, which can close out the game, plus they still can be used as removal in early game. You can also get value from YP even without creatures from oponent - which is important vs UW control.

RB also gives you access for amazing Swiss Army Knife's creatures in Tymaret and Rix-Maadi Guildmage.
First gives you reach and value from chumping/blocked creatures plus is very good while in graveyard vs detention sphere and bile blight (sac target in response), while the other changes combat in your favour plus gives you mana sink and reach with it's second ability.

[Purp]

Guys, stop posting all these awesome lists. I don't know what cards to buy for this weekends PTQ and Super IQ!

[Longtoe]

Lazerburn I like your list. I honestly would just swap out the herald for the lifebane main. They both have evasion. I think lifebane is value no matter what the opponent is playing. I will try your list at WNM with the lifebanes main and give a report after.

[Valdarith]

Thanks to whoever edited my post. I have no idea why the decktags do that sometimes. It seems to be only when quoting decklists and posting another in the reply post.

Anyways, I'm at a crossroads here. We've all discussed lack of speed, reach, etc, and there's a few options:

1) Run Spike Jester alongside Young Pyromancer. This means dropping Mutavault for more red sources.
2) Replace Young Pyromancer with Spike Jester. We lose a lot of value but gain speed and keep the Mutavaults.
3) Run Shred-Freak alongside Young Pyromancer. We keep Mutavaults but lose extra power from Jester.
4) Run Shred-Freak and Spike Jester but remove Young Pyromancer. We keep Mutavault and gain even more speed at the expense of value.
5) Run all three alongside each other and become 2drop.dec. Have all the value, cut Mutavaults, but run lower land count.

Time to reflect.

[sakaye87]

Hi all! New to this forum. I'm really interested in playing B/R aggro in standard. Here is the deck I'm thinking about playing this FNM. I'd like some feedback on my card choices.

[deck=B/R Aggro]
Creatures (25)
3 Rakdos Cackler
3 Tormented Hero
4 Pain Seer
4 Rakdos Shred-Freak
3 Mogis's Marauder
3 Herald of Torment
3 Lifebane Zombie
1 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
1 Mogis, God of Slaughter

Spells (13)
3 Thoughtseize
1 Ultimate Price
2 Bile Blight
3 Dreadbore
3 Hero's Downfall
1 Hammer of Purphoros

Land (22)
2 Mutavault
4 Blood Crypt
4 Temple of Malice
8 Swamp
4 Mountain

Sideboard
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 Ultimate Price
2 Doom Blade
2 Dark Betrayal
2 Slaughter Games
3 Skullcrack
1 Tymaret, the Murder King
[/deck]

I'm missing 2 cards in the sideboard. I was also thinking of running Xathrids, Lightning Strike, Shock, [card:
1gvl5plc]Madcap Skills[/card], and [card]Titan's Strength[/card]. If anyone could think of a better way to fit some of those in that would be awesome. Also what about a card like Showstopper?

[Valdarith]

You have the right idea, but there are glaring issues:

1) One drops - why three of each? You want four of each.
2) Your list can't afford to run Mutavault. You have a lot of BB spells and you need 18 black sources to cast them. If you were only running Hero's Downfall I could see it, but you're running Bile Blight, Downfall, Lifebane Zombie, and Herald of Torment. 16 black sources just won't cut it.
3) Thoughtseize is too good not to run four of.
4) I'd rather find room for Spike Jester than run Exava and Mogis in your list. That will help you curve out a bit more consistently.

[sakaye87]

You have the right idea, but there are glaring issues:

1) One drops - why three of each? You want four of each.
2) Your list can't afford to run Mutavault. You have a lot of BB spells and you need 18 black sources to cast them. If you were only running Hero's Downfall I could see it, but you're running Bile Blight, Downfall, Lifebane Zombie, and Herald of Torment. 16 black sources just won't cut it.
3) Thoughtseize is too good not to run four of.
4) I'd rather find room for Spike Jester than run Exava and Mogis in your list. That will help you curve out a bit more consistently.

1. I guess I was considering dead draws mid-game. I usually play mid-ranged/control so this aggro business is outside my comfort zone. Will find room for 4
of each.
2. I only put the Mutas in there because they seemed like a staple in any aggro deck. I will pull them for more swamps.
3. I've always had bad experiences with Thoughtseize but ill run 4.
4. What would you change in order to keep Exava and Mogis? I'd really like to have a fatty 4 drop in some games. I know Mogis will most likely not be a creature when I play him but I'd like to play the one I did pull.

[deck=B/R Aggro]
Creatures (25)
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Tormented Hero
4 Pain Seer
4 Rakdos Shred-Freak
3 Mogis's Marauder
3 Herald of Torment
1 Lifebane Zombie
1 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
1 Mogis, God of Slaughter

Spells (13)
4 Thoughtseize
1 Ultimate Price
2 Bile Blight
3 Dreadbore
2 Hero's Downfall
1 Hammer of Purphoros

Land (22)
4 Blood Crypt
4 Temple of Malice
10 Swamp
4 Mountain

Sideboard
2 Lifebane Zombie
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 Ultimate Price
2 Doom Blade
2 Dark Betrayal
2 Slaughter Games
3 Skullcrack
1 Tymaret, the Murder King
[/deck]

+1 Rakdos
Cackler +1 Tormented Hero -2 Lifebane Zombie(to the side) +1 Thoughtseize -1 Hero's Downfall -2 Mutavault +2 Swamp

[Valdarith]

I personally don't think there's a point with Mogis. It'd be better as a second Exava for a faster clock and a fat threat.

If you're going to run Mogis's Marauder I think you should run fewer Terminate effects, and the ones you do run should hit planeswalkers. This allows you to run more creatures and maximize his effectiveness as an alpha striker since you generally do not care about killing creatures that won't be able to block your guys anyway.

Now, here's what I'm working with.

[deck]
Creatures (25)
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Tormented Hero
4 Spike Jester
4 Rakdos Shred-Freak
4 Pain Seer
4 Lifebane Zombie
1 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch

Spells (14)
4 Thoughtseize
4 Dreadbore
3 Bile Blight
1 Ultimate Price
2 Hero's Downfall

Lands (21)
4 Temple of Malice
4 Blood Crypt
3 Mountain
10 Swamp

Sideboard (15)
3 Duress
2 Dark Betrayal
1 Ultimate Price
2 Doom Blade
4 Pharika's Cure
2 Satyr Nyx-
Smith
1 Slaughter Games
[/deck]

I got rid of the fancy Young Pyromancer stuff and cut straight to brass tax with Spike Jester and Rakdos Shred-Freak. Less value, but I present a much faster and more consistent clock against control decks while packing a lot of Terminate effects for the midrange decks and mono blue. I dare say this iteration could even outrace burn (probably 50/50 preboard).

[Pedros]

Guys every list here is so awsome.

@Val

Change Shread Freak for Rat / Assassin and deck would be much better.

[Valdarith]

I disagree. I want speed. Rat/Assassin offer neither.

I like Assassin, but I'm running enough terminates for the extra toughness and deathtouch to be less of a thing. I could change my mind though.

[MegaGreige]

@Valdarith

Really happy to see Pain Seer, Thoughtseize, and Dreadbore at 4x in a list.

Does Xathrid Necromancer have a spot in the sideboard? with 13 MD humans already, he could replace Satyr Smith in the SB (I am assuming he is there for control) and also be good against monoB trying to trade 1 for 1 with removal.

[Valdarith]

I thought about it. Both generate value in their own way. I think haste on Nyx-Smith is a huge deal. Necromancer can be Sphered the turn you play him doing nothing for you while Nyx-Smith will at least get two in. You can play Nyx-Smith when your opponent is tapped out and force him to Last Breath him at sorcery speed to prevent him from generating value. Then again forcing your opponent to deal with Necromancer before wrathing is a decent tempo play too.