Dies to Removal

Posted: **Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:28 pm**

Unvote

vote Kaze

Too bad lynching Iso didn't caught

Posted: **Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:53 pm**

Unvote

vote Kaze

Too bad lynching Iso didn't caught

unvote vote scumbag
implying you know iso is town

Posted: **Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:58 pm**

He either is governor and by association town and is not playing with the team, or he is not and is more than likely scum. Both very good reasons to lynch him imo, but since people say its a bit too extreme to lynch him at this point, I'm happy to go back to my first love.

Posted: **Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:00 pm**

Unvote

vote Kaze

Too bad lynching Iso didn't caught
unvote vote scumbag
implying you know iso is town

I think that's a bit hasty Yann-dog. I think he was sad that his train on Iso didn't catch on with people. That's all. I didn't read that as him implying that he knew Iso was town. I think we should focus on Kaze at this point and see where it goes.

Posted: **Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:06 pm**

He either is governor and by association town and is not playing with the team, or he is not and is more than likely scum. Both very good reasons to lynch him imo, but since people say its a bit too extreme to lynch him at this point, I'm happy to go back to my first love.

so you want to lynch a power role because he's not playing nice nice with you?
lol.

Posted: **Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:07 pm**

He's not playing nice with anyone

Posted: **Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:10 pm**

He's not playing nice with anyone

which isn't a reason to lynch a power role.

Posted: **Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:12 pm**

I wonder if Kaze will attempt to defend himself...

Posted: **Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:15 pm**

He's not playing nice with anyone
which isn't a reason to lynch a power role.

I have to agree here.

We need to go about this in a different direction. We're developing a us v. him attitude between Iso and the rest of the town and drawing lines in the sand is not beneficial to us. Town needs to stop fighting itself. We need to come to some sort of agreement.

Posted: **Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:38 pm**

Does anyone else think it's odd that Kaze is ignoring the fact that he has more than half the votes needed to lynch him?

Posted: **Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:53 pm**

^not even if he ACTUALLY had half the votes needed instead of the 3 or something he has now.

Plus defenses reflect the skill of a player a lot of the time instead of their actual motivations unless there's a pretty big gap in understanding, who people are voting and attacking are usually much more interesting then why they say they're not scum.

Posted: **Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:51 pm**

Kaze is still on my suspicious list but I hate the way yanni has been playing and I'm going to keep my vote there for the time being.

Posted: **Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:04 pm**

Posted: **Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:10 pm**

I hate Yanni too, but that's not a good reason to vote for him.

Posted: **Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:25 pm**

He's not playing nice with anyone
which isn't a reason to lynch a power role.

Assuming he isn't bluffing

Posted: **Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:30 pm**

If he is lying, it'll come out soon enough. Iso's a good player. Even without the power role claim he's a tempting nightkill target. If he's not dead or proven by Day 3, then we can talk. In the meantime, assume he's telling the truth.

Posted: **Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:05 pm**

I keep hoping Ill come here and see a votecount so I can get some handle on the game

Posted: **Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:09 pm**

If he is lying, it'll come out soon enough. Iso's a good player. Even without the power role claim he's a tempting nightkill target. If he's not dead or proven by Day 3, then we can talk. In the meantime, assume he's telling the truth.

this

Posted: **Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:10 pm**

I keep hoping Ill come here and see a votecount so I can get some handle on the game

Page before this one, brah.

Posted: **Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:48 pm**

Fate and Gammagooey! You guys know Nuwen best, and you both agree she's town. Is that just based on meta, or is there something more?

Posted: **Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:04 pm**

meta is so ridiculous as a defense

Posted: **Fri Sep 13, 2013 5:47 am**

Oh boy, things are actually happening!

He's not playing nice with anyone

I've never really been a "team player" in Mafia.

Does anyone else think it's odd that Kaze is ignoring the fact that he has more than half the votes needed to lynch him?

Actually, I think that's a point in his favor since he's not completely imploding or melting down from being run up this time around.

Posted: **Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:33 pm**

Oh boy, things are actually happening!

He's not playing nice with anyone
I've never really been a "team player" in Mafia.

Does anyone else think it's odd that Kaze is ignoring the fact that he has more than half the votes needed to lynch him?
Actually, I think that's a point in his favor since he's not completely imploding or melting down from being run up this time around.[/
quote]

That's a good point. This game is so slow at this point that it's fairly hard to get any new reads. So at this point, I think we have to stick with the few scum reads that people are on and choose one and we all need to vote it.

Posted: **Fri Sep 13, 2013 5:44 pm**

I'm a little confused. Is the first sentence the only thing responding to what I said while the rest is just a general observation/statement?

Posted: **Fri Sep 13, 2013 5:51 pm**

I'm a little confused. Is the first sentence the only thing responding to what I said while the rest is just a general observation/statement?

Yeah, should've started a new paragraph after agreeing with you.

Posted: **Fri Sep 13, 2013 6:18 pm**

If he is lying, it'll come out soon enough. Iso's a good player. Even without the power role claim he's a tempting nightkill target. If he's not dead or proven by Day 3, then we can talk. In the meantime, assume he's telling the truth.

Scum won't need to nightkill Iso if his reads aren't accurate. He would be a better tool left alive - denying a flip (even if it's town) can be very detrimental to POE, which is how mafia is won. Governor is called a SWINGY role because:

1. Scum are a minority in any given game
2. "Good" town players can also be described as "town players who land on scum > or == 50% in a 1:4 or 1:3 setup."
2a. Most players have an only-
slightly-better-than-random scumdar. That's about a 25% chance of landing a scumz D1.
3. It follows that a governor is MOST likely to prevent town on town crime, especially on the first or second day. This is BAD because preserving town life isn't the path to victory; you have to narrow down the pool of players until you "bring up" everyone's chance of hitting scum to higher-than-random. In an even WORSE scenario, Governor has the opportunity to prevent a scum lynch if his reads are really that terrible (I've seen it happen). It has a low low potential for positive feedback because in the best case scenario, it prevents a lynch on someone who's probably more useful post-flip.

Scum governor is also a fairly common iteration of the role. If you can follow the above, you'll understand why giving governor to a scum player isn't UTTER B0RKED - the town-aligned version already carries a set of huge drawbacks for town. The scum-aligned version converts those drawbacks-in-town-
slot into advantages-in-scum-slot, which is a common way to smooth out swinginess.

I don't know Iso personally, but I can read into his overeager crumbing this way: "ehehehe there's NO WAI anyone would ever call my role scum *crumbcrumbcrumb*

" I mean, it's not like a governor NEEDS to crumb his role... he can just trigger it and confirm at will.

Buuuut all that aside, it's a HELLUVA waste to test lynch on someone that'll prevent it anyway. I have no doubts about Iso actually possessing a governor ability - it would be silly high-risk to crumb this power and then be unable to confirm it. The people who are CURRENTLY VOTING FOR ISO should vote elsewhere IMO.

I still think Stardust is a solid stab into information. RNG says scum is already being voted for at least once. All of these outlying wagons imply that scum aren't committed to bussing yet, because some alternative
might pan out.

Kazekirimaru (3) - DroppinSuga, DroppinSuga, Yanni
Iso (2) - TomServo, Scumbag
GR (2) - Stardust, Kazekirimaru
Scumbag (1) - Spambolic
Stardust (4) - GR, Manders, Lord_Mcdonalds, Gammagooey
Yanni (2) - Fate, imopen2
Nuwen (1) - Iso
imopen2 (1) - Rezombad

I also only count 15 separate players on this vote count. The missing vote is... mine.

Vote: Stardust (L-3)

Posted: **Fri Sep 13, 2013 6:36 pm**

Okay, I wanted to do a reread, so here's some bullets.

- imopen's post 20. I didn't catch this before, but the "unless i'm just reading too far into what he said" is classic waffling. Uncertainty of a new player is also a possibility.

- imopen again at post 30. "and then see what others have to say" is scummy. Later makes a better post on the subject.

- Still really dislike Kaze's play at the beginning here...

- Nuwen asks a good question of Iso in 71, but is technically
misreading Iso's post.

- Kaze's infamous post 89...

- imopen's post 101 feels pretty townie, but I don't really know why. *Later note: Lots of his more recent posts give me the same feeling.

- GR sixth on Kaze's wagon with a fairly simple case.

- Nuwen follows Fate onto GR's wagon without a case, going on her soapbox about succinctness for a while. She laid down the best case against Kaze earlier though, and is now refusing to lay down a case on GR, saying that "cases are scummy".

Kaze/Iso if you don't buy G_R as scum, lend your support to a
flash wagon on Yannus. If you don't want to vote Yannus, quote a piece of his posting that you believe is town-motivated.

Nuwen, this was a while back now, but why did you direct this specifically at Kaze and Iso?

-Damn, I really did get stuck on Kaze, didn't I? As of page 9 I'm all but convinced he's town now that I've taken the time to reread. I've got to focus less on interactions. They led me astray in my previous town game too.

- Fate and Nuwen's interactions have always been buddy buddy, but it's always Nuwen who's asking for confirmation on a read, Nuwen who's coming to Fate's defense and Nuwen who's trying to
lead. It hasn't yet gone the other way.

-Ugh, GR, I'm having such a hard time deciding on you again. I was starting to believe I was wrong about you, starting to see that there could be a town mindset behind your earlier decisions, but then I got to this post. It's just so misguided. You read through the whole thread and resolve leads based on individual posts, then throw down a short case on me based on faulty logic, not bothering to expand in response to my response.

- Why isn't Nuwen talking to me with these posts? I don't know about others, but I find that when I'm playing scum I address the town more often than I address my target, mostly because I'm not trying to resolve anything, I'm trying to
convince.

- I didn't give GR enough credit for this post at the time. It starts of as fluff ("Here's a post... here's another post..."), but it actually does have a heart in that I'm not pushing for anyone in particular during my brief Col K tangent. That is at least a reasonable reason to suspect someone, but I didn't see that at the time since the rest of his case is nonsense. Basically, GR could be pushing me for the right reasons.

The part that I find most telling is the meta stuff. Something had been bothering me about Stardust's play, and GR just hit the nail on the head. He's saying one thing, but doing another. It doesn't mesh.

Unvote Vote: Stardust[/quote:
3sbsx00s]
I didn't understand you're reason for voting here at all until now (considering GR didn't use meta against me). You think I'm using meta, which you're calling scummy because I said I don't like meta, right? So show me, where have I used meta?

- Yanni gets a bit defensive about that slander thing, but his defense is weak.

- GR's not reading my posts, based on his post here. Town ignoring someone they think is scum? I suppose scum reluctant to agree with target could be true too. Null.

So, to sum up, I'm quite sure I've been wrong Kaze. GR and imopen are still on my radar, but they're not reading nearly as strongly as earlier - GR in particular. Col K is back on my radar for some opportunism earlier and for working against a claimed PR (Iso). Yanni has also caught my eye primarily for
his defensiveness throughout the game.

In the end, I'm going to go ahead and sheep that Iso guy though. I trust Fate, though I'm not sure why. I think he's town. But I think he's wrong about Nuwen. Whatever meta he thinks he's got doesn't overshadow her hardcore buddying (and leading) of Fate in particular, her fabrication of cases, her inconsistencies in what she calls "axiom", and her appeals to the players in general. I'm in.

Unvote, Vote: Nuwen.

HAHAHA! I go to click submit after working on this for hours and see that Nuwen has just voted me. Ah well, kneejerk away!

Posted: **Fri Sep 13, 2013 6:42 pm**

Kazekirimaru (3) - DroppinSuga, DroppinSuga, Yanni
Iso (2) - TomServo, Scumbag
GR (2) - Stardust, Kazekirimaru
Scumbag (1) - Spambolic
Stardust (4) - GR, Manders, Lord_Mcdonalds, Gammagooey
Yanni (2) - Fate, imopen2
Nuwen (1) - Iso
imopen2 (1) - Rezombad

I also only count 15 separate players on this vote count. The missing vote is... mine.

Vote: Stardust (L-3)

Huh. Maybe you are onto something with that PR fishing thing, Iso. By that count I'm currently at L-4, not L-3.

Also, why choose now to vote for me, Nuwen? You were one of the first to start throwing accusations my way, yet never voted. I was wondering when you might finally jump on, but it seems strange that this follows the first time I showed any
real suspicion of you (with my question to Fate and GG). Were you trying to get ahead of my vote here?

To everyone: If I do end up getting lynched, take a real hard look at Nuwen's interactions with my wagon. This is shady business.

Posted: **Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:41 pm**

@Stardust - When you thought Kaze was voting you, you saw him as scum (#550). In the next post when you realized he wasn't voting you, you saw him as town (#551). Now that Nuwen is voting you, she's scum. I could almost write that off as townie paranoia but aside from one earlier question to Fate/Gammagooey, you didn't express any clear suspicions about her before. Combined with your now sheeping Iso, a player whose behavior + crumbing makes little sense from a town perspective, I'm comfortable unvoting and voting Stardust.

Were you trying to get ahead of my vote here?

This is also such a bad question. It's a "when did you stop beating your wife" type question where the guilt is
implied in the phrasing.

Posted: **Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:18 pm**

Yeah, that question yesterday was after I decided to start looking into Nuwen seriously. I caught a few things that seemed off in a quick review, but saved the case for after my reread that I knew I'd be doing today. My vote today had nothing to do with her voting me - check the timestamps.

In Kaze's case, I got stuck in the rut of GR and Kaze being buddies. I need to stop clinging to interactions. When it occurred to me that he chose to vote for GR (presumably his buddy) over a known townie (me), that's what finally broke me out of that rut. The fact that it was me was incidental - Kaze alone is town.

Anyway, all told, I'm actually okay with being the Day's lynch. I think my wagon's progression will reveal a whole lot of information once you all know my alignment. I am a PR, but it's a fairly useless ability that really won't lose us much.

Posted: **Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:21 pm**

I'm really not comfortable with the Stardust wagon. I'm not moving my vote.

Posted: **Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:22 pm**

Mmm, and I suppose I could mention that I've been reading Iso as town more and more strongly ever since I dropped my case on him. Now that he's claimed a town PR, I'm pretty comfortable trusting him fully at this point.

Posted: **Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:42 pm**

Scum governor is also a fairly common iteration of the role. If you can follow the above, you'll understand why giving governor to a scum player isn't UTTER B0RKED - the town-aligned version already carries a set of huge drawbacks for town. The scum-aligned version converts those drawbacks-in-town-slot into advantages-in-scum-slot, which is a common way to smooth out swinginess.

Nuwen, can you link to a couple games that had a scum governor? I still can't see it as being balanced. A mafia vig (tough guy, right?) is very strong already. This is essentially the same in that you get a free kill, except that you also make the town lose their lynch, netting the scum team another free kill that night. I understand the town
governor has downsides, but this is not a simple "converting drawbacks into advantages", it's giving the mafia three kills in a row.

Basically, prove it, because I think you're trying to cut down Iso to defend yourself.

Posted: **Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:21 pm**

@Nuwen: Last I calculated, I have a "first reads" accuracy of about 70+%. Though that's likely changed, as it's been over a year since Seasons.

@Stardust: <3

@Stardust - When you thought Kaze was voting you, you saw him as scum (#550). In the next post when you realized he wasn't voting you, you saw him as town (#551). Now that Nuwen is voting you, she's scum. I could almost write that off as townie paranoia but aside from one earlier question to Fate/Gammagooey, you didn't express any clear suspicions about her before. Combined with your now sheeping Iso, a player whose behavior + crumbing makes little sense from a town perspective, I'm comfortable unvoting and voting Stardust.

[quote=&
quot;Stardust » Fri Sep 13, 2013 5:42 pm"] Were you trying to get ahead of my vote here?

This is also such a bad question. It's a "when did you stop beating your wife" type question where the guilt is implied in the phrasing.[/quote]

Woah, there. What makes such little sense about my behavior and breadcrumbing as far me being town goes?

Posted: **Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:21 pm**

*as far as

Posted: **Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:28 pm**

Also, why choose now to vote for me, Nuwen? You were one of the first to start throwing accusations my way, yet never voted. I was wondering when you might finally jump on, but it seems strange that this follows the first time I showed any real suspicion of you (with my question to Fate and GG). Were you trying to get ahead of my vote here?

Is that a legitimate question to Nuwen? You talk a lot and don't really vote a lot, so I don't see how your question about Nuwen:

Fate and Gammagooey! You guys know Nuwen best,
and you both agree she's town. Is that just based on meta, or is there something more?

could be seen as 'he's gonna vote me, better vote him first'.

So let's examine your case:

Whatever meta he thinks he's got doesn't overshadow her hardcore buddying (and leading) of Fate in particular, her fabrication of cases, her inconsistencies in what she calls "axiom", and her appeals to the players in general. I'm in.

1. hardcore buddying (and leading) of Fate in particular -

Fate, Nuwen timeline (paying attention to mostly votes and the posts after their votes):
Fate votes kaze first then disappears, Nuwen builds case against Kaze. Fate appears to unvote and vote G_R, Nuwen unvotes, Nuwen builds a case against G_R. Nuwen receives suga's vote(s). nuwen loses sugas votes.
nuwen unvotes(post 445). Fate votes Yannus. [as an aside, its about this time that Nuwen starts pointing fingers at Iso and Stardust] Nuwen Votes Stardust.

I don'e see Nuwen leading Fate here. I see, in my skimming of the entire thread, Fate leading Nuwen and letting her do the heavy lifting of making cases and trying to convince others to believe her reads.

2. fabrication of cases -

You've been handwaving Nuwen for a while. After she says that your point of view doesn't make sense, you say she is confused and call her case against you 'fabricated'.

3. her inconsistencies in what she calls "axiom" -

She says that "Bending over to count ants is a good way to get an axe in the back" is axiom. Makes sense to me.

4. appeals to the players in general -

I'm fine with drumming up support, I'd like to lynch scum and I'm happy to hear cases from people who have them.

---

I don't
really see her as scum, honestly. And I don't see how you see her as scum either.

unvote

Posted: **Sat Sep 14, 2013 12:38 am**

Unvote, Vote: Nuwen.

HAHAHA! I go to click submit after working on this for hours and see that Nuwen has just voted me. Ah well, kneejerk away!

Such blatant OMGUS. Not even half an hour after Nuwen voted you. Oh, but you mention that so all is forgiven, amirite?

Yeah, that question yesterday was after I decided to start looking into Nuwen seriously. I caught a few things that seemed off in a quick review, but saved the case for after my reread
that I knew I'd be doing today. My vote today had nothing to do with her voting me - check the timestamps.

In Kaze's case, I got stuck in the rut of GR and Kaze being buddies. I need to stop clinging to interactions. When it occurred to me that he chose to vote for GR (presumably his buddy) over a known townie (me), that's what finally broke me out of that rut. The fact that it was me was incidental - Kaze alone is town.

Anyway, all told, I'm actually okay with being the Day's lynch. I think my wagon's progression will reveal a whole lot of information once you all know my alignment. I am a PR, but it's a fairly useless ability that really won't lose us much.

You're...okay with getting lynched?

And you state you're a PR, but a useless one.

I don't know how I feel about those statements.

Posted: **Sat Sep 14, 2013 12:50 am**

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=4531627

Fate and I join heads to hydra as Wyrd a Mafia Governor in this game.

The governor is usually a negative-feedback role for town. Does everyone follow what I mean here? Some powers do not help the town in an average game state, but instead counterbalance town powers with swing. You can see a live example here if Iso is town; he estranges a lot of potential friends by trying to push his opinion over collaboration. His wrongness can be of greater detriment than the average town slot is capable of - that's swing. He's voting for me right now, which is wrong.

Stardust needs more time to prep a fakeclaim? Wants people to wheedle it out of him?

Posted: **Sat Sep 14, 2013 1:02 am**

You're...okay with getting lynched?

And you state you're a PR, but a useless one.

I don't know how I feel about those statements.

Okay, I know how I feel about those statements.

UNVOTE
VOTE: Stardust

That's how I feel about those statements.

Let's get a claim as soon as possible.

Posted: **Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:21 am**

@Stardust- Nuwen just feels like she's hunting for scum and is trying to evaluate her reads with a pretty high standard of doubt. i also feel like there may have been a post or two that looked really town but i dont remember what they are and im not going to bother going back to try and find it right now.

also still have to read the rest of the posts on this page so doot doot

Dies to Removal

The Boondocks Mafia (Town Win)

Hide your children! It's a big post!