Also if you are scared of not hitting Reckoner mana, you could play BW Shocklands instead of swamps. Those will let you hit both T1 Cackler and T3 Reckoner (but just like any other lands, will screw T2 Zealot).
The problem there is then you're running 8 shocks and possibly some amount of Guildgates, which is really going to screw around with the manabase and your ability to cast stuff unless you do significant amounts of damage to yourself. That seems like too much of a headache for just one creature.
Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:35 pm
by windstrider
No, simply activating a Mutavault won't trigger Purphoros, but my thinking is it will the turn you drop a 'vault onto the field and then can activate it since it's a creature just entering the battlefield. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on this.
Nope.
Well, that just sucks then.
Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:41 pm
by Yarpus
I'm really excited for the new Set. This deck just waits for RB Scrylands. I think all of the Red deck do.
- Cerberus for Sledgehammer: play like Aggro deck. They wrath you, they kill your creatures but it's k. Show 'em Cerberus and they are like "if I kill his fatty, I'll give him back everything I've dealt with without getting my responses to those cards back. DEAR FUCKING GOD."
- Tymaret for PyroRed: Barrage of Expendables was cute tech. Tymaret takes out all the cuteness while leaving tech. With Chandra's Phoenix and Young Pyromancer, it's easy to just abuse his abilities. I don't need to remind you how good is having sacc outlet in Red deck. It negates wraths and removal. And if they'll ever print decent 3CMC threaten, we're at home baby.
- Exava for RDW/Sledgehammer: because we still miss the 4CMC hasty motherfucker in the format. Mogis is just not the same.
This is going to be a good format
to play with.
But for now I acknowledge the superiority of Boros mostly due to Scrylands. They are awesome Magic cards after all. And Chained to the Rocks rocks.
Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:56 pm
by Zooligan
No, simply activating a Mutavault won't trigger Purphoros, but my thinking is it will the turn you drop a 'vault onto the field and then can activate it since it's a creature just entering the battlefield. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on this.
Nope.
Is that because it enters as a land?
Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 3:02 pm
by Yarpus
Yes. And that's the only way how it can be recognized. Trigger checks for a creature to enter and responding to it with changing Mutavault's type is just too late.
Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 3:04 pm
by windstrider
Yup. It would have to enter as a creature due to another static effect already present. <<sadface>>
Edit: nath'd by Yarpus.
Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 3:09 pm
by Zooligan
Makes sense. You can't turn it to a creature until it has resolved, and by then it's already entered the battlefield (as a land).
Hypothetical: if you turned to to a creature and then blinked it with something, would it then enter as a creature (land/creature to be exact)??
Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 3:12 pm
by Yarpus
You can't turn it to a creature until it has resolved, and by then it's already entered the battlefield (as a land).
Nope, it's a bit different.
Because for example... creatures with targetable ETBs can target themselves.
Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 3:14 pm
by Zooligan
So wait, that statement "You can't turn it to a creature until it has resolved, and by then it's already entered the battlefield (as a land)." is not correct?
Sounds like a lesson in Stack Fu is imminent...
Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 3:20 pm
by warwizard87
Dreadbore is so much better than Doom Blade.
I get its better in a vacuum, but what I like about doomblade is the instant speed removal, it feels combat trickery, stuff like offing a hydra with monstrosity on the stack of instant kill to take away devotion. Walkers are less the worry
Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 3:21 pm
by hamfactorial
I hopped off the Pyromancer plan, but my sideboard looks thusly -
[deck]
Sideboard
1 Assemble the Legion
1 Hammer of Purphoros
3 Boros Charm
3 Electrickery
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 Chained to the Rocks
2 Pacifism
2 Wear // Tear[/deck]
I have 3 Chained maindeck, 2 Mortars. Having access to 4 of each has been great vs. the durdly GW decks and anyone trying to get fancy with Blood Baron. Electrickery is also a godsend vs. the Master of Waves decks everywhere, and matches with lots of x/1s.
With some small changes, I've considered cutting Satyr, putting Pyromancer back in and bumping up to 24 land.
Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 3:39 pm
by Yarpus
So wait, that statement "You can't turn it to a creature until it has resolved, and by then it's already entered the battlefield (as a land)." is not correct?
Sounds like a lesson in Stack Fu is imminent...
Kinda. I can't explain it on the stack - but I know it just works like that.
Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:20 pm
by Helios
What's your MB look like, Master Hamwise?
Purphoros says "Whenever a creature enters the battlefield under your control..." You cannot activate Mutavault's ability until it is in play. Thus, Mutavault cannot trigger Purphoros.
Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:26 pm
by windstrider
You can't turn it to a creature until it has resolved, and by then it's already entered the battlefield (as a land).
Nope, it's a bit different.
Because for example... creatures with targetable ETBs can target themselves.
It's like how Fanatic of Mogis can use its own casting cost to fuel it's devotion ability. The trigger goes on the stack as it is resolving, so it can then count itself on the battlefield when the trigger resolves.
The Mutavault doesn't trigger Purphoros since his ability checks the type of permanent as it resolves. Since 'vault isn't a creature when it resolves, his trigger doesn't activate. By the time you can turn 'vault into a creature, the trigger condition is no longer active.
nA bounced 'vault would re-enter as a land not a creature since it would be counted as a new permanent.
My brain took way too long to wake up this morning, which is no different than any other morning.
Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:32 pm
by Helios
The Mutavault doesn't trigger Purphoros since his ability checks the type of permanent as it resolves. Since 'vault isn't a creature when it resolves, his trigger doesn't activate. By the time you can turn 'vault into a creature, the trigger condition is no longer active.
This is incorrect. Purphoros's ability only triggers (read: goes on the stack) when a creature enters the battlefield. Mutavault is not a creature. So the ability never goes on the stack.
Instants and Sorceries: 11
3 Mizzium Mortars
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
Planeswalkers: 3
3 Chandra, Pyromaster[/deck]
Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:54 pm
by Elricity
I have tried Purphoros in PyroBoros and it is not good.
Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:56 pm
by Zooligan
You cannot activate Mutavault's ability until it is in play. Thus, Mutavault cannot trigger Purphoros.
isn't that saying the same thing, that you cannot turn it into a creature until after it has resolved (as a land), and then it's already on the battlefield so it can't enter as a creature?
Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:57 pm
by windstrider
The Mutavault doesn't trigger Purphoros since his ability checks the type of permanent as it resolves. Since 'vault isn't a creature when it resolves, his trigger doesn't activate. By the time you can turn 'vault into a creature, the trigger condition is no longer active.
This is incorrect. Purphoros's ability only triggers (read: goes on the stack) when a creature enters the battlefield. Mutavault is not a creature. So the ability never goes on the stack.
Instants and Sorceries: 11
3 Mizzium Mortars
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
Planeswalkers: 3
3 Chandra, Pyromaster[/deck]
You're one step away from going Dragon Stompy.
Goooooood. Goooooooooooooooood!
Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 5:01 pm
by windstrider
The Mutavault doesn't trigger Purphoros since his ability checks the type of permanent as it resolves. Since 'vault isn't a creature when it resolves, his trigger doesn't activate. By the time you can turn 'vault into a creature, the trigger condition is no longer active.
This is incorrect. Purphoros's ability only triggers (read: goes on the stack) when a creature enters the battlefield. Mutavault is not a
creature. So the ability never goes on the stack.
Isn't that what I said?
Edit: not upset or anything. I sincerely want to know.
Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 5:02 pm
by Helios
Zoo, your original statement was largely correct. The only issue is that lands don't "resolve," because playing a land is an action which does not use the stack. Your reasoning is right though.
windstrider, your statement implies that Purphoros's ability checks every permanent (read: goes on the stack) before deciding whether or not to trigger. It legitimately does nothing at all with regards to the stack when you play mutavault. Re: being upset, yea, I assumed People that get upset over the internet are silly. You don't strike me as being that kind of guy.
tl;dr Playing Mutavault doesn't use the stack, and triggers nothing but Landfall abilities.
Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 5:15 pm
by windstrider
Zoo, your original statement was largely correct. The only issue is that lands don't "resolve," because playing a land is an action which does not use the stack. Your reasoning is right though.
windstrider, your statement implies that Purphoros's ability checks every permanent (read: goes on the stack) before deciding whether or not to trigger. It legitimately does nothing at all with regards to the stack when you play mutavault. Re: being upset, yea, I assumed People that get upset over the internet are silly. You don't strike me as being that kind of guy.
tl;dr Playing Mutavault doesn't use the stack, and triggers nothing but Landfall abilities.
nWell, maybe I am. I'm plenty silly, at least.
Since it's a static ability, it kinda makes sense, to me at least, that it would "check" every permanent as it resolves on the battlefield. If yes, then ability triggers. If no, then ignore. I realize that Magic has some very arcane rules that state otherwise, but that's how I think of it.
Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 5:17 pm
by Helios
It isn't a static ability, it is a triggered ability. Those things are different.
Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 5:20 pm
by windstrider
I'm just gonna stop posting for a while.
Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 5:21 pm
by Helios
Make some hot tea, it'll take the edge off the coffee Apologies if the rules lawyering sounds like I'm being an asshole; I don't mean it that way. Just tryin to spread the knowledge.
Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 5:26 pm
by windstrider
Make some hot tea, it'll take the edge off the coffee Apologies if the rules lawyering sounds like I'm being an asshole; I don't mean it that way. Just tryin to spread the knowledge.
Oh, I know. No offense taken at all. I know what I'm *trying* to explain, but I can't find the right words to use, and that is exceptionally frustrating for me.
Edit: I want to post a PyroRed decklist in the Sally RDW thread and break their brains.
4 Shock
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Chaned to the Rocks
Sideboard
2 Chained to the Rocks
1 Hammer of Purphoros
3 Peak Eruption
2 MIzzium Mortars
4 Boros Reckoners
1 Assemble the Legion
2 Boros Charm[/deck]
Match 1 - VS Devo Black (2-0)
Game 1 - Him playing Temple of Deceit and Temple of Silence made me think he was esper control. Anyway, I played a Cackler then Pyro, but he just didn't have anything and died.
-4 Shock +2 Mizzium Mortar +1 Assemble the Legion +1 Hammer of Purphoros (As I stated earlier, I thought he
was esper control)
Game 2 - He managed to land a Desecration Demon, but I was able to topdeck a Chained to the Rocks and tapped a Satyr and double Phoenix. He doomblade'd one of the phoenix, but I was later able to recur it with Lightning Strike and tapped for lethal.
Match 2 - VS Devo Green (with Red splash) (2-1)
Game 1 - I won the coin flip, curved out and beat him to submission.
-4 Rakdos Cackler -4 Firedrinker Satyr +4 Boros Reckoner +2 Chained to the Rocks +2 Mizzium Mortars
Game 2 - I managed to play out two Reckoners, but he matched it up with two Abhor Titans and Polukranos.
Game 3 - An epic win for the day. I misplayed early on and got Chandra killed off by a Polukranos. He managed to heal himself to 30 thanks to the devo centaurs, and when he overloaded Mortars for the second time, I was at 4 life. His [card:
ee1cmmrd]Mystic Elf[/card] turned sideway to chip me to 3.
All seemed to be lost, until a fiery planeswalker decided to help me once more. She +1 and removed the elf, bringing the phoenix back from the graveyard. For the rest of the games, he played nothing more than 3 toughness, so I was able to snuff them out before they could even tap to attack. By the time he managed to draw another Polukranos, Chandra was at 8 and ulti'd for 3 Lightning Strikes to the dome (He was at 8 life with the Phoenix continuous attacks, and me flinging any Shock from Chandra's 0). The opponent actually commented about me being awfully lucky. Seriously, Chandra is the best card in standard!
Vs Red Devo? (2-0)
Game 1 - He landed a Reckoner, which I was able to Lightning Strike and he took Ash Zealot with him. I
managed to land a Chandra which got me some CA before being removed by a 3/3 golem token. After bolting him down to 2 life, I swung with my phoenix and two Mutavaults for lethal
-4 Firedrinker Satyr -4 Rakdos Cackler +4 Boros Reckoner +2 Chained to the Rocks +2 Mizzium Mortars
Game 2 - I saw no Reckoners while he played two of them. I was able to Chain the first one and bolt the second (Again, took Ashley with him). When the coast was clear, I played sexy Chandra and got some CA out of the deal. He spent some of his resources to kill her, and apparently kept a hand of Firefist Striker as he couldn't play them with Chandie around. Unfortunately for him, I had another one in hand, which proceeded to ride me victory.
Vs UW Control (1-2)
Game 1 - He played first, but showed no creatures for the next 4 turns. I played 3 satyrs for the first two turns, which was enough to maul at him with.
-4
Firedrinker Satyr -4 Rakdos Cackler +4 Boros Reckoner +2 Chained to the Rocks +2 Mizzium Mortars
Game 2 - I boarded in wrongly, as apparently he was UW control instead of Blue Devo (No plains in Game 1). I got mauled by two Haunted Platemail as 3 chained sat on my hand.
-4 Boros Reckoner -2 Chained to the Rocks -2 Mizzium Mortars -4 Firedrinker Satyr -4 Rakdos Cackler
Game 3 - I actually forgot to board in those Boros Charm for this matchup. Had I done so, the result might have been different. He was able to stabilize at the back of a Trading Post, and he had a pithing needle naming Chandra. He later proceeded to beat me to submission with a Haunted Platemail.
Lesson(s) learned
- I misplayed twice in this DE. The first one was saved by real luck, but I shouldn't have counted on it to carry me. I should have known better than to assume the last opponent to be a Blue
Devo, for starters (3 Islands and Mutavault and no creatures at all? Freaking bizarre).
Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 7:40 pm
by Shardoon
I understand I can't target a God with Pacifism while it's NOT a creature, but does Pacifism remove itself from the God if I cast it legally and it then becomes a non-creature?
Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 7:43 pm
by rcwraspy
I understand I can't target a God with Pacifism while it's NOT a creature, but does Pacifism remove itself from the God if I cast it legally and it then becomes a non-creature?
Someone else will have to chime in, but I don't think so. The God isn't leaving the battlefield, so it's still the same permanent even though it's lost a card-type through later game-state changes.
Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 7:46 pm
by Helios
Pacifism will fall off. It is this really silly rules quirk, but it happens.
Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 7:47 pm
by Jack
Pacifism falls off. The first time state-based actions are checked after the card's controller goes under 5 devotion, the enchantment sees that the card it's attached to isn't a creature, so it becomes an illegal target after failing to meet the first requirement.
Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 7:51 pm
by Helios
^ That. Enchantments "continuously target." It is kinda dumb.
Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 8:04 pm
by Jack
It's the reason Animate Dead needs that fucking wall of text in the Graveborn printing.
People that get upset over the internet are silly. You don't strike me as being that kind of guy.
I'm plenty silly, at least.