SOA Mafia: Season One -- Day Four

[hamfactorial]

Rez:

Who have you investigated, and on what nights?

[rezombad]

Night 1 Jamie town
Night 2 hamfactorial town
Night 3 stardust town

[RedNihilist]

@rezombad, that makes sense. Whoever the last scum is clearly has some cool powers aside from Godfather.

@hammy, that makes sense too. Pretty much makes rezmo out to be town based just on the fact that he's the only investigative role.

I'm not sure I'm following you here.
I mean, I get your general idea of keeping rezombad alive in order to enlarge the mislynch pool, but in that scenario I think I'd rather avoid being caught as scum.

But you wouldn't be caught since rezmo could be scum himself. A scum rezmo has two options - fake a town result on someone and try to get the other lynched, or fake a scum result on someone and try to get them lynched.

Here's what I wrote to imopen last night. Maybe that'll make things more clear.

---

So... maybe this isn't so easy. I was thinking what I would do in Red's shoes, and I think he'll kill rezombad because no matter which of us rezombad cops, Red's the likely lynch. I don't think killing rezombad would make sense for scum in my position, but I also don't think everyone will see it that way. I've reread and am at maybe 75% certainty that Red's the last scum, based primarily on modgaming the fact that rezmo is the only claimed investigative role. If I protect rcw and rezmo dies, will I be lynched? If I protect rezmo and rcw dies, will my doctor claim have any credibility at all?



I guess I should really ask myself whether I can beat Red one on one. I think I probably can? He probably thinks I could too, so maybe wouldn't even target rezombad, hoping the cop shot will be taken as WIFOM (as it probably should be, all else being equal).

I also need to factor in the fact that saving someone's life here means we get an extra lynch. That's a big deal, so picking correctly is very important, especially since that likely clears me as town. I wouldn't withhold my kill to gain town cred if it meant giving the town an extra lynch.

Red is scum: If I target rezombad and save him, we win, for sure, no question. If I target rezombad and rcw dies... rezombad's cop shot hopefully wins the day. If I target rcw and rezmo dies, it's a coin flip between me and Red, and if I target rcw and save him, we win for sure.

rezmo is scum: If I target rezombad, rcw dies, and rezombad's cop shot probably wins him the game one way or the other - if he's smart he'll clear someone as town. If I target rcw I for sure save him, giving us two lynches. Lynch rezombad's target, then lynch rezombad would be the right play then, guaranteeing us the win.

So targeting rezombad either guarantees us the win or probably makes us lose. Targeting rcw either guarantees us the win or gets us a coin flip. There's also the fact that rezmo is guaranteed to target rcw, while Red is maybe 50/50, so there's overall a higher chance that he's the target.

tl;dr: Nothing changes. I'm protecting rcw.

So you're telling me that you've failed while not being roleblocked?

I didn't fail. The people I was protecting just happened to die despite my best intentions! Apparently due to exploding bullets. No clue how they survived killing kpaca, but I'm glad kpaca's bomb ability didn't kill everyone who was targeting him that Day (which I've seen before). That's why I asked imopen about kpaca's role details yesterday, because I wanted to know if the scum were protected or if kpaca's bomb was shut down.

I think I'm pretty much ready to vote RedNihilist. He's shown multiple times now that he's extremely good at dodging my scumdar. I've got a town read on both the possibilities, and rezmo has his claim to help him out. I think that's all I need. If this makes rezmo win, he's played a great game and deserves it. Unless I'm right, I guess, in which case townrezmo didn't do that great a job after all.

Vote RedNihilist.

This is stupid.
You're telling me that you're deliberately losing this game over the fact that:
- you don't consider me scum - but I'm apparently too good at dodging your scumdar, so that will make me scum forever (even though you actually caught me in the only game we'd played together with me as scum);
- you blindly accept rezmo's claim DESPITE his choices (what was the point in copping ham?);
- you're confident about your modgaming while you're implying that in this setup there was a single vanilla town (LMD IIRC).

Are you setting me up?
Are we really back to kaze noob's friendly mafia?
I'm really starting to think that you're the Godfather and just waiting to win to teach us how you fooled us.

[rezombad]

Flail!

[Stardust]

There's nothing wrong with a single vanilla town. Some mods actually aim to have exactly one vanilla townie just to introduce some WIFOM while leaving vanilla a safe claim for scum. It's much much more strange to not see any information roles in a game.

I am not setting you up. I'm also not blindly accepting anything. I knew for a fact that I wouldn't be the nightkill, so I actually did a lot of work on this game last Night. Even before this day shook out, I was at about 75% sure you were the last scum. I'm not as close to 100% as I might like, but I have nothing else to do. I've done the work, I've read as much as possible following WitchHunt's flip, and no new information has come out this Day to change any of that.

You're right that rezmo has played a lousy town game, looking in particular at his choice to cop ham and his bizarre attacks on me Day 3. In my rundown of all three of you yesterday I also mentioned his interactions with Jamie, but rereading that, it actually looked okay - I can pin a townie motive to asking those questions. The cop and the Stardust hate boil down to paranoia, something that town rezmo has shown in spades in multiple games. If he is town, he hasn't played great, but that's not a reason to lynch him. Everything else he's done has felt townie.

You, on the other hand, are a town read for entirely different reasons. Nothing you've done has looked scummy (other than possibly your interactions with the DK wagon), and everything you've posted has felt townie without actually looking townie, if that makes sense. This is exactly what you're best at. I've played with you as scum twice before. In Fire and Ice you had me fooled completely (and I played an awful game overall) and in WePick the only reason I caught you is your interactions with Kaze combined with your claim (that was forced out of you due to Wraith's interactions Night 1). There is absolutely no way I would have caught you if that had been a pure vanilla game. The fact is, I cannot trust your behaviour alone to give me the right result. That doesn't mean I'll lynch you always and forever, but since POE leaves you and only you, you're the lynch this time.

I am not so confident in my modgaming that I'm moving ahead without reason. I'm confident enough in my mod gaming given the complete lack of other evidence and known history of what you (and rezmo) are capable of. If I'm wrong (and there certainly is that chance here), then I apologize, but I don't think I'm going to change my mind at this point. You're the better bet.

[hamfactorial]

Stardust:

What did you not want to reveal on day 3 following WitchHunt's JOAT claim?

[Stardust]

Oh, yeah, hammy, I targeted WitchHunt Night 1. Forgot to answer that before.

Stardust:

What did you not want to reveal on day 3 following WitchHunt's JOAT claim?

Umm... let me check... Oh yeah. It was the wording on his doctor ability. His claim was "If using the doctor ability, that target will be protected from kills that night" with no added limitations. That differs from my ability in two ways: 1) I can only protect from the first kill each Night, and 2) My ability explicitly says that I cannot target myself. Obviously detailing that would have outed me as the doctor, something that wasn't really ideal if I could avoid it. Since WitchHunt was going to be lynched anyway, claiming didn't make sense.

Now that I reread, want to explain what this post was about?

Unvote.

[hamfactorial]

I figured your hesitation was something like that. I re-read day 3 and saw that WH's claim triggered both you and rez. I wanted to confirm that you were taking issue with his wording of the doc claim without revealing yourself as the doctor.

His "not guilty of the murder" result on me threw his claim into doubt. I said before that I can't reveal some information from my role PM (under penalty of modkill), but I can say that it contradicts his faked result on me.

I didn't commit the murder, but I'm not innocent.

[Stardust]

...

That reads to me like you're a Miller. But rezombad got a town result on you. If you are a Miller, blink twice, then vote rezombad.

What does any of that have to do with WitchHunt's doctor claim?

Also, you said in that post that you would "claim today to disprove or verify [WitchHunt]". What were you going to claim?

[hamfactorial]

I was going to say exactly what I said above, regarding his weird cop results. Then he gave up so I voted him.

You had a similar experience, so I think you'll understand why I was asking WH for more info until he checked out and gave up.

Rez behaved similarly when WH's cop claim didn't jive with his results.

I'm not a Miller, I'm town and I had 1-shot bulletproof. Not too complicated.

If one was paranoid (and I am) I'd wonder why two people you claimed to target (raspy, rianalnn) ended up dead the next morning. Y U NO SAVE THEM, doc?

[Stardust]

Look at imopen's flavour at the opening of Day 4 here. It's implied that someone tried to protect rcw. That was me. Also, it's pretty clear that there's no tracker in this game. What would I have to fear from just lying about my targets if I were scum?

That sounds good, but you didn't answer my first question. Is that "doc" just a typo?

[hamfactorial]

What about your question didn't I answer? I'll try again if you're not satisfied.

I was using the Y U NO guy for funsies. The only typo I've made has been "1-shit".

[Stardust]

Depending on what WitchHunt says about his doc ability, I'll claim today to disprove or verify him.

I am satisfied, more or less, just confused about that one thing. Your latest post has made me even more confused.

Let me try again. Here's your quote.

Depending on what WitchHunt says about his doc ability, I'll claim today to disprove or verify him.

That one tiny word in large and bold has nothing to do with your explanation. You never mentioned doctors in the slightest, only cops. What does any of this have to do with WitchHunt's doctor ability?

Y U NO MAEK SENCE!?

[hamfactorial]

Oh, that looks dumb. Yeah, that's a typo, I was only taking issue with his cop claim. I didn't realize I had messed up the role on day 3. I thought it was odd that you suddenly became confused after I said that. I was talking about cops, you were thinking about the possibility of 3 doc claims.

When you mentioned typo, I thought you meant my Y U NO joke, since I said "doc" in there.

get Madding in here to tell me I blew it.

[Stardust]

Ya blew it.

Vote RedNihilist.

[hamfactorial]

Did Red ever claim his abilities? I only see flavor.

I'm ready to vote Red, but my paranoia wants to entertain the possibility of Stardust being scum with a passive ability to return fake results to cops. It's an alternative explanation for his doc ability failing twice and rez getting a town result.

I guess there's no way of knowing, so it comes down to a weighted coin flip.

[rezombad]

He claimed vt iirc

[rezombad]

Did Red ever claim his abilities? I only see flavor.

I'm ready to vote Red, but my paranoia wants to entertain the possibility of Stardust being scum with a passive ability to return fake results to cops. It's an alternative explanation for his doc ability failing twice and rez getting a town result.

I guess there's no way of knowing, so it comes down to a weighted coin flip.

Stardust's ability, if he were scum would have to be able to fake out a cop and also not be killed by kpacas bomb

[rezombad]

That dog won't hunt monsignour.

[hamfactorial]

I found a Godfather variant on the wiki called Tough Guy, which makes the player unkillable at night.

It's a lot of power in one place, but in a 2 scum game with an SK and town vig, it seems fair.

[Stardust]

Explain the opening Day flavour if I'm not the doc.

[hamfactorial]

I can't. Just thinking out loud, hence why I asked if Red had claimed a PR.

[RedNihilist]

There's nothing wrong with a single vanilla town. Some mods actually aim to have exactly one vanilla townie just to introduce some WIFOM while leaving vanilla a safe claim for scum. It's much much more strange to not see any information roles in a game.

Whatever. I really don't know. I've always avoided flavour/modgaming but I guess it can make sense.

I am not setting you up. I'm also not blindly accepting anything. I knew for a fact that I wouldn't be the nightkill, so I actually did a lot of work on this game last Night. Even before this day shook out, I was at about 75% sure you were the last scum. I'm not as close to 100% as I might like, but I have nothing else to do. I've done the work, I've read as much as possible following WitchHunt's flip, and no new information has come out this Day to change any of that.

I don't really know if I care. You can mislynch me because you're simply wrong or because your purposefully wrong, but those scenarios seem equally bad.

You're right that rezmo has played a lousy town game, looking in particular at his choice to cop ham and his bizarre attacks on me Day 3. In my rundown of all three of you yesterday I also mentioned his interactions with Jamie, but rereading that, it actually looked okay - I can pin a townie motive to asking those questions. The cop and the Stardust hate boil down to paranoia, something that town rezmo has shown in spades in multiple games. If he is town, he hasn't played great, but that's not a reason to lynch him. Everything else he's done has felt townie.

Seriously, while I agree with you about the fact that misplaying is not a good reason to lynch someone, are you really falling for *that*?
rezmo has basically claimed by counterclaiming (bussing) WitchHunt, but has specifically avoided bringing anything new to the table. The pseudo-breadcrumbing on Jamie is really devoid of any significance, as that post (254) can easily be seen as a way to gain towncred on having correctly claimed town on a mislynch, and claiming to have copped ham on N2 is really too absurd to be true.
"Hi, I'm the cop and I've avoided any kind of commitment lately, should I try to hunt for scum or should I just double-check a player that's basically already confirmed town? Let's go for the latter!"

Also, take note of the fact that he decided to bus WitchHunt after we caught him by POE, up until then he did absolutely nothing, then attacked you head-on on Day 3, and after his friend messed up badly trying to get some distance from him he bussed him. Now he's suddenly your best friend (you're 100% not a Godfather, remember).

(Also, the very fact you've decided to come up with the Godfather argument is making me feel uneasy, but this rezmo-madness is too blatant to not be true).

You, on the other hand, are a town read for entirely different reasons. Nothing you've done has looked scummy (other than possibly your interactions with the DK wagon), and everything you've posted has felt townie without actually looking townie, if that makes sense. This is exactly what you're best at. I've played with you as scum twice before. In Fire and Ice you had me fooled completely (and I played an awful game overall) and in WePick the only reason I caught you is your interactions with Kaze combined with your claim (that was forced out of you due to Wraith's interactions Night 1). There is absolutely no way I would have caught you if that had been a pure vanilla game. The fact is, I cannot trust your behaviour alone to give me the right result. That doesn't mean I'll lynch you always and forever, but since POE leaves you and only you, you're the lynch this time.

I am not so confident in my modgaming that I'm moving ahead without reason. I'm confident enough in my mod gaming given the complete lack of other evidence and known history of what you (and rezmo) are capable of. If I'm wrong (and there certainly is that chance here), then I apologize, but I don't think I'm going to change my mind at this point. You're the better bet.

I'll avoid any kind of further comment on this, I don't want to become redundant.
I don't get that comment on my interactions with the DK wagon, though.

[RedNihilist]

Did Red ever claim his abilities? I only see flavor.

I'm ready to vote Red, but my paranoia wants to entertain the possibility of Stardust being scum with a passive ability to return fake results to cops. It's an alternative explanation for his doc ability failing twice and rez getting a town result.

I guess there's no way of knowing, so it comes down to a weighted coin flip.

I can't bother digging that up for you at 1.30 AM but yeah, I'm VT and I've claimed that on D3.

[Stardust]

Unvote.

I'll probably vote him again tomorrow, but I just can't get past Red's towniness... His behaviour certainly beats rezmo's so far this Day. I should at least take a look.

[rezombad]

Do go on dusty.

[rezombad]

And also go about reviewing the end of day 1

[rezombad]

unvote red

I control this game now.

3 options.

1. You lynch me, scum win.

2. You lynch red, town wins with me.

3. Red decides that he wants to win with me and we both vote no lynch, he kills a townie tonight and then we lynch the other townie together day 5.

[rezombad]

I'm a neutral survivor cop.

I work with both sides.

Also option 4 is stardust is scum, but it works the same.

[rezombad]

Look at the end of day one. I really didn't want to have to counterclaim dechs

[rezombad]

You know what, I'll

vote no lynch

Right now.

I'm gonna leave it there till I can hammer someone

[hamfactorial]

[Stardust]

Ha! This game is fucked up.

Vote RedNihilist.

hammy, you should follow me. Let rezmo hammer and get this done.

[hamfactorial]

I'll make my vote tomorrow morning after I've thought about it a bit.

[RedNihilist]

unvote red

I control this game now.

3 options.

1. You lynch me, scum win.

2. You lynch red, town wins with me.

3. Red decides that he wants to win with me and we both vote no lynch, he kills a townie tonight and then we lynch the other townie together day 5.

I'm a neutral survivor cop.

I work with both sides.

Also option 4 is stardust is scum, but it works the same.

How convenient.
So you're proposing that we all no lynch and think about it tomorrow.
We're four and that would probably not lose us the game on the spot, as if scum had a way to kill two players overnight they would have already done so by now I guess.

I could either choose to not believe you or trust you and your strange scenario where you're a neutral cop and Stardust is a godfather.

Case 1:
- you're scum, we lynch you, we win;
- you're scum, we lynch someone else, we lose;
- you're scum, we vote for a no lynch, you kill somebody (I guess ham) overnight and I enter Day 5 with scumYou and this Stardust guy that's trying to break the record for the guy who types "Vote RedNihilist" the most.

Case 2:
you're neutral, Stardust is a godfather (or even ham, at this point, but that would be surprising), and the whole game is fubar.
If we agree on a no lynch, we're still entering a trigger-happy Day 5 where you randomly hammer with the first one who votes.

Going for a no lynch is not REALLY feasible - it would be a good tool to break parity only if we didn't already know ham is town (would a bulletproof Godfather even make sense? and, even if it was, would scum really forfeit their first nightkill just to show that ham is bulletproof? excuse me but this sounds really far-fetched).

Summing up: you've painted up a very interesting scenario here in order to persuade us that lynching you is the wrong move without actually giving us any unlikely information, so Stardust can still mislynch me out of his fear of my l33t scum skillz0rz and I can actually fear for Stardust being the vile scum manipulator that's setting me up.

This is too convenient, I just don't believe you.

On a side note: can you please explain me why neutroZombad should care about double-checking ham's alignment.

[rezombad]

I gave you an opportunity to win.

Just gonna wait on ham and then hammer you.

[rezombad]

Also, a few things.

your posts make it clear that you don't think I'm scum, you just really want to push a lynch on me to prove that stardust is godfather. Which means you believe I'm a cop.

"would a bulletproof Godfather even make sense? and, even if it was, would scum really forfeit their first nightkill just to show that ham is bulletproof? excuse me but this sounds really far-fetched"

Hey ham, I'm on mobile, but can you go check my posts to see if I talked about why I copped you night 2?

Because I totally was like 'oh man, with the SK gone, the scum could totally gambit, use their bulletproof to get town creds and ride that to the end'.

Back to red,
Lynching me is the wrong move, lynching stardust is the wrong move, lynching hammy is the wrong move.
They're town. You can't be.



And stop saying godfather, you're emberassing yourself.

[RedNihilist]

UncleZombad, the first player that started talking about godfathers was Stardust, ya know?

[RedNihilist]

Because I totally was like 'oh man, with the SK gone, the scum could totally gambit, use their bulletproof to get town creds and ride that to the end'.

Yeah, except for the fact that you claimed right now that you're not even town, so explain me how that could have made your life more difficult.

[RedNihilist]

Side note:

@hammy, that makes sense too. Pretty much makes rezmo out to be town based just on the fact that he's the only investigative role.

Seems like your masterful modread is not really that good, as the only player supposed to have an investigative role has claimed to be not town.