Dies to Removal

Heres the list. 2-1 at WNM this week. This is what I want for the PTQ season coming up.

[deck]
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ashley
3 Pack Rat
1 Tymaret
4 Chandra's Phoenix
3 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch

2 Chandra, Thighs

3 Shock
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
2 Dreadbore
2 Ultimate Price

3 Mutavault
4 Blood Crypt
3 Rakdos Guildgate
2 Temple of Silence
1 Temple of Triumph
1 Swamp
10 Mountains

SB
3 Mizzium Mortars
1 Ultimate Price
1 Dreadbore
2 Doomblade
1 Slaughter Games
3 Skullcrack
3 Toil//Trouble
1 Flex(this time it was Thoughtsieze, bad idea, you need multiples of it)
[/deck]

Round 1 was against Mono-Black (George, local endboss) and he just flat out-played me game 1. I was on the pack rat plan and so was he, BUT he had an underworld connections so his rats were infinitely better. Game 2 he sides in Dark betrayal "for my rats" but it did double duty and hit my cackler and exava's.
n0-1

Round 2 vs Andrew playing Mono-Black/green. He was new to competitive play so it was easy to leverage skill and knowledge of of the steps and phases to induce misplays on his part. He was a good guy and instantly learned from his mistakes. Game 1 I did the aggro thing while he got mana screwed. He also animated a mutavault into my open mana, so my magma jet was a turn 2 stone rain. Game 2 was a little grindier, Slaughter games and Skullcrack were all-stars. Turn 5 I know he has a Gary in hand but he needed to deal with my board, so I was able to name Desecration Demon with the games and clear those out while saving the skullcrack for the gary. I named demon because I did not have an active phoenix or a removal spell in hand. Dealing with those gave me the time to find burn and close the game out. Slaughter Games is evil, definitely a HARD card to play correctly. I feel you almost need a duress/sieze package so it becomes a discard spell more often than not.

1-1

Round 3 vs Matt playing Blue/
Black/Red/white Control. I know Matt, and he doesn't like to play mainstream cards like revelation or Jace. So, it was a cake walk since I was playing against a less optimal control shell. Ashiok made an appearance both games. And I had answers both games. There was not much fight on his end since Ashiok was his main way to interact early on.

2-1

I need practice if I want to win some PTQ's. Not alot of room for error with what I have here. But it definitely rewards solid players.

Thoughts on deck choices? Is Spike Jester doing that much work for you guys? Hows the mana been with the Whips and Erebos' in the Board? Do your Erebos' ever animate?

I would definitely try anger. It's good against a lot of decks. The Selesnya deck that's popping up, mono blue, Esper Human/WB Humans, hell it beats everything!

Just random thought before going to sleep - have to leave home at 4 am.

What about singleton anger of the gods in place of flames of the firebrand?

Sb would be like this:

3 doom blades
2 whip
2 erebos
1 anger of the gods
2 from those 3: rakdos return, slaughter games, stormbreath dragon
1 hero downfall
2 mizzium mortars
2 dark betrayals

Potential cutting downfall fo 3rd mortars or 3rd betrayal

Also 2 mutavaults, 16 red and 14 black sources or 3 mutavaults, 15 red and 14 black?

Thoughts:
I prefer 3 mutavaults, 15 red and 14 black mainly because vaults is very powerful Rat Combat tricks and its strong vs Rw Devotion, Naya and UW/x Control
SB: Anger of the Gods seems much better then Flames for this type of deck, if your only
going to run 2x Mortars I'll recommend Slaughter games - I dislike the spell but naming Ghostdad vs Esper Aggro or BBv vs BW control is GG.

I agree with MDU, I prefer 3x Mutavaults as well. Ever since I changed from 1 Temple of Triumph to Silence after my dismal placement at the GQ, everything has been working relatively well. Sometimes that 3rd Mutavault really helps closing games down fast with a Pack Rat on board ;v

Just looking for some input before a GPT tomorrow. Here is the list I plan on playing:

[DECK]
Lands (24)
4x Blood Crypt
7x Mountain
3x Mutavault
4x Rakdos Guildgate
4x Swamp
1x Temple of Deceit
1x Temple of Silence

Creatures (22)
4x Chandra's Phoenix
3x Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
4x Pack Rat
4x Rakdos Cackler
4x Spike Jester
3x Stormbreath Dragon

Spells (14)
2x Dreadbore
2x Chandra, Pyromaster
4x Lightning Strike
4x Magma Jet
2x Ultimate Price

Sideboard (15)
1x Anger of the Gods
2x Dark Betrayal
3x Doom Blade
2x Erebos, God of the Dead
3x Mizzium Mortars
1x Rakdos's Return
1x Slaughter Games
2x Whip of Erebos
[/DECK]

In the SB, I'm thinking about replacing the Slaughter Games with another Rakdos's Return. It will be a widely varied meta, and I might see a little bit of everything. Some MBC, U/W control, Esper control, Mono U, G Devotion, the list goes on. There's some characters
at my LGS that like to throw together some crazy shit, so any input on what to pack in the SB vs an unknown (and possibly bat-shit-crazy) meta would be appreciated.

I love 3 mutas, wouldn't change 'em. I still need to try switching the temple of triumph for a second temple of silence, but it seems promising.

Went 4-0 then split final round (store doesn't do cut-to-top-x). Deck worked wonders, but the only cotrol deck I faced was naya, so didn't bring in RR anyway, so no data on it yet, but still seems good.

Not really anything worthy of a writeup. Will note that I won every match 2-0, even the final when we played for fun, and I faced a boros aggro, 2 white weenies, a rakdos aggro(using pack rats just like us. I was slightly worse for a green splash and 4 maindeck rakdos's returns though), and a naya midrange/control.
Chandra and whip both destroyed face, even vs the aggro. The whip was a powerhouse, and could be directly attributed victory many times, whereas chandra was more supporty in her dominance, and helped me to use other things to win. They both did amazing work,
but I think chandra is still better maindeck for her wider range of matchup usefulness

Well done Raida!

Story time running 1 Slaughter of the Games:

I was at FNM last night, playing against a weird UW/Esper Control build (not so much weird, just a hybrid it seemed). I demolished him Game 1 and then we sided, I brought in 1 Slaughter Games amongst other things. Game 2 he resolved a Elspeth with me low on health and gassed. I top decked a Slaughter Games, saw his entire deck and then immediately conceded. I got the number of Elspeths in the library, Jaces, Angels, and even BBV's. I kind of played the stall game while I sided in for game 3, seeing if he was going to shift things around. He didn't. So I quickly brought in appropriate cards for the threats and we played Game 3. Done deal. Angels and BBV's toasted and roasted by Mizzium.

This was a FNM setting, I understand, but it was glorious. I honestly question its ability though in serious play ;\ Ripping Sphinx's/Jace's/Elspeths out of someones deck can be great,
but if drawn and I'm already behind. It won't save me in the end ;; Also, I've been running 1 Rakdos's Return in the 75 and getting some pretty awful hits. I think I miss Toil//Trouble...

Anyone having any better success with either card?

What are the collective thoughts on Devour Flesh? Just wondering as it was used to great effect against me last night...

It's a good card, but I don't think it's good for us. I'd rather remove what I want, then having a bit of an ability to hit evasive things. Most decks will either have vaults or other creatures instead of what we wanna hit.
Also giving them extra life isn't great here

Still a good card though, and it could definitely work, I just think our other options are better atm.

What are the collective thoughts on Devour Flesh? Just wondering as it was used to great effect against me last night...

You're racing more often than not. Forcing a sac is sexy but you can't really afford to let them have more life than you're capable of doing to them. I've been ennamored with Far//Away lately. It's a pretty elegant card, probably not for this deck though.

Just ended a SCG thing here with 90+ players at 4-1-2. Misplayed one match, but else the failures of the deck we're my own "tweaks". Tymaret sucks. Cerberus sucks. A hasty flier had been great as the deck is really solid. A bit miffed, but the event was top fun.

I see you guys have dropped Ashley in favor of spike jester. Has the loss of first strike greatly reduced what you can swing through? Have you just been able to keep the board cleared a little better? .

Went 2-3 drop at PTQ. Never saw a black source in round 2, putting me at 1-1. Then facing RW burn putting me 1-2.

Deck is great when it works, but overall I got screwed land wise 3 times. Not sure if I am going to stick with this deck or switch back to pyro boros. 2 More PTQs this month.

For me weekend was terrible.

Won Round 1 vs RG Monsters
Won Round 2 vs Mono U
Lost Round 3 to terrible missplay - attacked elspeth with phoenix and burned her out instead of playing dreadbore. Hacing only 6 hours of sleep and waking at 3 AM to go to different city might be bad...
Lost Round 4 to GW Agro - game 1 didnt draw 3rd land to clone rat in time on a draw, game 2 missed 5th land for multiple turn: he had 8 life, I had rats on board, whip in hand and dragon while being on 20. Then he played 2 creatures every turn, with 3 banisher priests to kill rats, while I didnt have land to kill with dragon or play a whip plus acivate mutavault to race with lifegain.
Lost Round 5 couse I thought we are going back and kept twice 1 landers with perfect curves. Didnt get it, afterwards my carmates said we are staying ;/
Won Round 6 vs Mono Black
Lost Round 7 vs Boros Legions - guy even admited he chose this deck because of my
performance at last PTQ. In game 3 I controled a board, had whip on board and was at high life total (around 16), however didnt draw a single creature to get some damage / life. He then played 3rd dragon and I couldnt draw anything.

Deck seems really powerful, however I have some thoughts:

1) Lack of maincolor scrylands really hurts consistency. Offcolor scrylands helps only a littlebit as they dont fix colors, only fixes draws.
2) Basic Lands > offcolors scrylands. This is an agro deck with heavy colors needs.
3) Slaugter Games > Rakdos's return. Vs UW control I had rakdos's return for multiple turns, however I couldnt cast it as he had counerspell from jace, and I couldnt bait it out with creatures as he had all the answers. I lost as he cast 4 sphinx's revelations (also I never could cast RR to empty his hand). The game I cast games turn 4 taking all his revelations was lost because of my missplay on turn 6 and turn 7, when the game last for close to 25 turns (ended when he killed me
with blind obedience being on 2 life, when I had 4 creatures with haste in hand). My missplays: not dreadboring elspeth plus shipping mountain to the bottom with magmajet.
4) Anger of the Gods was really good.
5) Somehow I didnt like ultimate prices in md. I know doomblades arent good vs mono black, however devotion strategies overloads on multicolored threads, plus ultimate price cant kill hammer and mutavault.
6) SB vs agro decks to play as control is very good, however we are 1 for 1ning most of the time. We lack draw spells or midgame creatures to put sth on a board (Similar to Ash Zealot/YP/Reckoner from Boros Legions). I noticed this problem some time ago, we have hard time to win vs red decks in fast fasion - they have multiple mortars/chains in hands to kill rats / dragons / exavas and we might run out of removals (Most agro decks have also better topdecks with temples over guildgates).

Summing up: Deck is good, however not consistend enough to play in ~7+ rounds tournament right now because of
lack of scrylands.

Seeing how successful Esper Midrange is, maybe creating 3 color agro would be better? To be honest Esper deck has better manabase (colorwise) than we have...

Went 2-3 drop at PTQ. Never saw a black source in round 2, putting me at 1-1. Then facing RW burn putting me 1-2.

Deck is great when it works, but overall I got screwed land wise 3 times. Not sure if I am going to stick with this deck or switch back to pyro boros. 2 More PTQs this month.

See my post, have similar thoughts. I think lack of temples is a thing right now that screwes us over - those lands are really important to help consistency and color needs of such a color intensive deck.

I think you said it best, its the multiple round where the deck shows weakness. In a 4-5 round FNM with not all perfect decks, this deck can just draw well and win out. In a 5+ round event, where the better decks are to be faced in the later rounds, I really want the consistency.

I think you said it best, its the multiple round where the deck shows weakness. In a 4-5 round FNM with not all perfect decks, this deck can just draw well and win out. In a 5+ round event, where the better decks are to be faced in the later rounds, I really want the consistency.

To be honest it is not a problem of faicing Top Decks. In my testing I have positive win percentage vs Mono Black, UW, Esper and Mono Blue. However it isnt as good vs some weird decks you dont know.

I went 4-3 drop at the ptq as well, and my thoguhts pretty much followsui with y'alls.

I liked rakdos's return, as I got to pull a lot of shenanigans with it, and think it has potential.
I had a some problems vs a few black devo decks, but that was more due to consistency issues, and thier having silly nuts.

Also had a very narrow loss vs a black-based rakdos aggro that went defeated nearly the whole tourney.

We might wanna look into that, cause the phoenix and rat synergy is way too insane, but the raw speed of the black-based version might be a bit better right now, I dunno...

Ouch, seems like a tough time with this deck over the weekend. Definitely seems like the RB scry land will help the deck immensely.

My thing wasn´t a PTQ, but it´s the same people anyway. It was the inaugurial of a SCG Circuit thing starting in Scandinavia which was top fun. I brought the deck everyone uses here minus 1 Pack Rat (for a Chandra) and no Dragons for Tymaret and 2 Underworld Cerberus. Boy was that last part dumb. (Edit: I had 3 Mutavaults too)

Round 1: Golgari Midrangish rogue * bad play, bad draws and bad top of the curve (no SBD? Wtf were I thinking?) * 1-2
Round 2. RDW * Weirdest game of tourny magic in my life. I flood and he wins G1. I curve out and run over him G2. G3 comes along and just keeps running with us in top deck mode! Aggro mirror timing? That was a first * 1-1
Round 3: Esper Control * G1 curve out. He´s dead. G2 Mortared his BBv. He´s even more dead. * 2-0
Round 4: Black Devotion * Veeeery tight, but the lack of SBD was telling. He just chuckled when I told him I opted them out. At this point I feel quite annoyed about
the dragon shortage and dead baggage of Cerberus and Tymaret. * 1-2
Round 5: Selesnya Aggro - G1 I misplay, keeping Pack Rat in hand and starts to try drawing into pressure. Major stupidity. Thankfully I curve G2 and G3 the Rat returns and this time it ends with him and 5 buddies. * 2-1
Round 6: Colossal Gruul * G1 I can´t draw any gas. Post board she´s dead as anything she drops on table gets Terrored off or plinked away by Chandra. * 2-1
Round 7: Black Devotion w minor green splash * G1 I curve over him. G2 Rats crawls out of his nostrils in the end thanks to the crazy good Chandra & her Phoenix loop. * 2-0

In summary did I give away 1-2 matches due to bad deck building. A tad dissappointing.

The minor difference I´d pick from the md is 3 pack rats and 3 Chandras (apart from omitting the Tymaret and 2 Cerberus for SBD obviously). Despite what some people experience I have nothing but good things to say about her. She´s a must answer. The poor guy in the last game of the tourny HDF´d one and
the had to send his guy into her to stop her from going ultimate giving me ample time. A hundred games with her in this deck I don't feel I´d like fewer.

Did you (or would you) board any Chandra's out for any matchups?

Seeing how successful Esper Midrange is, maybe creating 3 color agro would be better? To be honest Esper deck has better manabase (colorwise) than we have...

I'm intrigued, heh.

Ouch, seems like a tough time with this deck over the weekend. Definitely seems like the RB scry land will help the deck immensely.

Hopefully. I know it's really stupid to be worrying about it and truthfully it doesn't mean anything without seeing everything, but I'm dreading black possibly getting a Damnation reprint or equal. Anticipation is killing me for an actual spoiler list, haha.

Tomorrow is one month to release. They should be starting, right?

Pretty soon...I hope.

Did you (or would you) board any Chandra's out for any matchups?

I used the excellent guide Raida et al put together, so yes. I simply had a Chandra left over in the last game as I sided in 2 Erebos.

Spoilers should start next monday the 13th I´m afraid.

I´m suprised you say the deck lacks consistency, which is the last thing I´ve noticed. Temple of Malice will remedy it further though. What I´d love to see in BNG is a Terror with Scry.

Slaughter Games < Rakdos's Return. Target decks for Games are to multi-faceted to make much difference.

My SB was:

3 Dark Betrayal
3 Doom Blade
3 Mizzium Mortars
1 Dreadbore
1 Whip of Erebos
2 Erebos, God
1 Slaughter Games
1 Anger of the Gods

/agree: Anger felt just right. Might even
exchange Whip for one more as that one felt to defensive and clunky.

Ran it last night at a local store for the first time to 2-2 and had a blast. Much more fun than Mono Black.

Round 1 vs. Boros Aggro
G1 Traded damage back and forth, took out his attackers with magma jet / lightning strike, closed out the game with Cackler and Spike Jester,
G2 he seemed to be curving out very well, but I stabilized at around 7 or 8 life, dropped Chandra ("Wait you're not running the PTQ winning Rakdos Aggro list?") and then Pack Rat. Rat + Chandra closed it out.
2-0. Played a third game for fun and it went much like G1.

Round 2 vs BWR (midrange-y??)
G1 Removed his threats, he eventually Rakdos's Returned me to wipe out the rest of my hand but I kept top decking burn and getting Phoenixes back. He was down to 3 and dropped Obzedat, but it was too late as I dropped SBD. I sided in more removal Dark Betrayal, Doom Blade, and Whip.
G2 we both had a ton of removal and not many creatures.
He dropped down a Ratchet Bomb early and said "For Pack Rat" (it hit the board first game briefly). With a Mutavault hitting him for 2 each turn and Chandra out I started digging using her +0. Hit threats and took him out.
2-0. We played a third game for fun (he used a Green Devo List with all the big guys) and he conceded after it went Cackler, SJ, Phoenix, UP his Polukranos

Round 3 vs. Red Deck Wins
G1 Mulligan to 6 which was an all red hand (two mountains, two magma jets, Cackler, Lightning Strike), so I risked it started digging with Magma Jets but only spotted black spells. First black source was a temple and by that time it was too late.
G2 sided in more removal and Anger of the Gods. Had to mulligan to 5, but had a swamp and a mountain. I started to stabilize and had him down to 8 with one creature on board with me at 5 with a SBD & Phoenix on board (with a SBD in hand) he shocked me at the end of his turn and then top decked lightning strike.
0-2. We chatted about the deck
and played another game which went more like the deck should and he conceded at turn 6. I think if I had mulled to 5 on G1 it may have gone better, it seems without a black and red source in play by turn 3 you're in trouble with this deck.

Round 4 vs Big Red with some burn -
G1 I think I took 2 points of damage, removed his creatures and closed out the game very quickly getting a concession on T4. He thought I was playing the Rakdos Aggro list.
G2 Mulligan to 4 with Blood Crypt, Mountain, Pack Rat, Magma Jet. His second turn went something like BTE, BTE, Lightning Strike. Following turn was Reckoner, swing. Next turn swing and Fanatic of Mogis. Yep.
G3 was a really good game lots of back and forth, I stabilized at around 5, chipping away at him with creatures & removing his threats. End of the game was me at 3 and him at 6. I had Whip, Mutavault & Phoenix out (with burn/removal in hand), while he had Fanatic, Cackler, Frostburn Weird, Mutavault, with one card in hand, tapped out. I figured
he had a creature in hand but not the mana to cast it and have Mutavault available for an attack. I made a bad choice here and attacked with the Phoenix. Then I burned out the Fanatic and Dreadbore'd the Weird. He top decked land and dropped Phoenix, and swung with the team for 6. If I would've kept Phoenix back, I could've traded Phoenixes, been at 1 with burn/removal in hand to take out the rest of his board. Checked my next card which was a SBD. Live and learn.
1-2

Looking forward to running it again on Friday!

Seeing how successful Esper Midrange is, maybe creating 3 color agro would be better? To be honest Esper deck has better manabase (colorwise) than we have...

I'm intrigued, heh.

Esper hits its colors more easily since they have a greater density of dual-lands being in 3 colors, but it's a much slower deck. Many lands either come in tapped or shock you if they come in untapped. I'd assume that leaning that hard on temples would slow an aggro deck down too much.

If you were to build it right now, you'd probably run 12 shocks and 8 on-color temples (Silence and
Triumph if B/R/W), then your 4 other lands are either basics or trying to force Mutavault.

I think with a mana base like that you'd be playing an aggro deck a turn behind the curve far too often. For instance, Cackler on T2, Spike Jester on T3, etc. That's just too slow.

I dont have time right now to play, but it isnt like that all the time. Check out Channel Fireball article from last week about managing mana in a deck. Autor said the mana for a deck was perfect for 1 drops, 2 drops and 3 drops. Most of the time you dont have perfect curve anyway, as you lack some of the cards doing so.

Also playing 3 color agro meens you are playing around 6 scrylands with 25+ lands. Having more land = having more options to cast cards on curve. Question is if the deck would be better than Esper.

A friend of mine missed top 8 of a PTQ last weekend with Esper mid due to misplays and discovered that it's by far the best deck to play in a control heavy metagame for anyone wanting to go that route. It's also more of an aggressive midrange deck then an aggro deck I'd say. Skynight, Obzedat, and whip are what make that deck playable. Also play at least 2 aristocrats if you play the deck. Cause sacking stuff for future whips is important.

Esper Aggro is definitely legit, just be warned - fast Aggro decks (esp. RDW FoM) pose a threat.

Honestly, I think one big thing is that I really wanted a turn 1 play every time, but didn't always have it.

Maybe we should look into trying to get another 1-drop? Yeah I know it'd be fiddly, but still... Or maybe even also add in shred-freak, since a hasty turn 2 is fairly close, and he'd proly be better in this deck than satyr, though the ability to drop a guy turn 1 is awesome.

But I feel like not having a turn-1 drop tends to be where my aggro curve-out hurts the most, unless I have silly amounts of jesters.
Because curving out is still really important to this deck, even if we do have the extra mid/late game power because of pack rat and stormbreath dragon...
But when half of our 2-drops we don't want to lay turn 2, or even really before turn 5 a lot of the time, and we tend to have problems having a 1-drop, the curve out can be more difficult...

It might be worthwhile to drop 1 dragon and 1 rat, and
add 2 satyr or something else. Tormented hero is also an option, but is sorta meh. I like the idea of tenacious dead, to combo some with rat, but having 2 power is important.

But I just feel like maybe going up to 6 1-drops would give us that extra bit of chance to pull one, which would make the curve out feel a bit better. Since getting in that damage early on when they can't quite do anything yet it really big.

Most decks can't answer something until turn 3ish, so having both a 1-drop and a 2-drop swinging on turn 2 is so big...

Like I made a mention of before, maybe we should look a bit at dropping some of the later game for that extra speed and stability (for now, since we don't have the scryland)
We could drop the dragons, and lessen the amount of rats, to fit in some 1-drops and some shred-freaks.


So yeah, I rambled a lot, but it was just some random musings.

I'll be considering a variant of this for my next GP appearance. If anyone has deck design or theory questions throw them up and ill answer.

For the one person who keeps trying to cut the best card in the format from their deck ~ for shame.

I got a question Z, how do you intend to beat Esper Aggro with RB? It seem like a downhill battle (assuming they don't kill themselves, which is something RB suffers from as well).

Flames / Chandra to stabilize early; Pack Rat to win the endgame.

I feel that the lack of Exile make RB weak to Whip and Xathrid Necromancer - but I do agree hitting Flames and Chandra is a beating vs them.

Note: Detention Sphere likes Rats

Save burn or terrors to kill targetted Pack Rat.

Please post your list Z, we are all so eager to know why you are choosing this deck now that a lot of us have announced our discrepancies with it. We have established the problems with the current mana, what makes you so confident to play this deck at a GP?

or did you forget to mention your GP is after the release of the red black scry land...

I didn't forget anything; scrylands don't change whether or not the mana base works; I'm just more conservative with my card selection. I like the list because I expect to see lots of control / midrange and the black splash naturally fights well against those.

I will say, Anger was awesome when I saw it in a white weenies matchup.. Might consider 2. Seems infinitely better than flames in matchups where we are boarding out 1 drops.

Where are you at now on your card selections? Im very curious as to why now you are deciding to announce you will play this deck, and what our reports/observations have done for you.