Ragnarok Mafia (Scum Win) Tattered Banners and Bloody Flags

[Stardust]

Hey Lord McD's! Are you playing this game? What's your town MO?

[Kazekirimaru]

With regards to TubeHunter, his play lately is similar to his scumplay in the game I modded.

Yeah, he was town that game. You REALLY need to stop using meta.

Shit, really?
Point taken.

I wasn't trying to look town with that scummy post. If I wanted to do that I would have just carried on with the status quo.
Instead I wanted some reactions, so I said things that could have come from scum, but also could have come from town. That last bit is important so that I don't get lynched, but the huge difference is in the end goal. My goal wasn't to make you think I'm townie. My goal was to make you think I'm null (and get some content in the process).

You were trying to look something and that's what I can't let go.

Maybe others have a hard time telling when you're not being serious, but I could tell that most of what you were throwing out early in the game was garbage to get reactions. I can go back and get more examples later if you really want me to, but all your "this guy + this guy scumteam. GG!" comes to mind. It's useless to discuss your motivation for posting stuff like that.[/quote:
1nm0unmt]
So you think his early game is legit and Pie is town?

-looks later in the post-

Yep. Kay.

I'll claim right now. I'm vanilla town.

Hey, ham, early claims are seen to some as a nervous scumtell.

oh...

unvote vote starudst

What's up, pudding cup?

Beacause I knew with my ability, one of them had to be scum... Right? Z was hounding me the entire game after I made a post that I didn't even think was that bad, so I got flustered and
thought I didn't have a choice. If I got lynched without using my ability and z was scum. I would've felt terrible (unsurprisingly like how I feel now). And I figured that even if I somehow didn't hit right, ham has to be scum.

I'm actually starting to think TubeHunter is town. Weird.

what if odin found out one of his messengers was working for the frost giants, but he isn't sure which?

Quit flavorgaming in an Iso game you derpcakes.

Stardust, they're 3 neighbors. Ham is scum, get
your head in the game.

But that's what Iso wants me to think!!!

This is your brain on Iso.

Anyway, glad I did that. My resolve is back. Let's lynch hammy.

I'm game.

Vote: hamfactorial

I had something else to say but I forgot it somewhere in the mess of quoting people.

[hamfactorial]

Ok, so after Stardust's Index post, I have 2 questions for Ham. The first I've already asked - who are your scum reads?

I'm reading TubeHunter as either scum or being awful as a townie. He's played mafia before so I'm choosing scum. We might also have a passive scum player (best guess is LMD) who might just be watching and avoiding all the stray bullets flying around. They probably don't view me as a serious threat, so they're happy to watch the experienced townies reveal themselves while trying to get the lynch votes on me.

The new question is - can you elaborate on why you
seemed to fence-sit on Stardust? It seems like you really didn't like what he was doing or how he was acting but you couldn't pull the trigger in your mind to call him scum. Why? You've already talked about it a bit, but I'd love an elaboration.

I have no idea what to make of him. I voted him in RVS and then withdrew my vote when things got serious.

I'm going to work, so responses will be on my phone and likely pretty slow. If you need me to, I'll hammer myself and flip so you can get to work.

[rcwraspy]

Hey rcw! Having fun as town? Tell me about it.

Honestly I'm a bit frustrated right now. Tube was our most obvious scum read, and then all hell broke loose.

We've got a situation where as I see it there are a few possibilities. But they all revolve around figuring out how Iso modded the game and/or flavor and that sorta thought process will just lead you in circles. Anyway:

1. Z, Tube, Ham are neighbors and since Tube can kill one then one of them is scum. Z flipped town, so Ham is scum. This seems the most likely to me and is a large part of why my vote's on Ham.
2. Z, Tube, Ham are neighbors and they're all town. But Tube can kill one of them, even though that doesn't really make sense flavor-wise.
3. Z, Tube, Ham are neighbors
and Iso makes Tube scum because fuck flavor.

I'd really like Ham to answer my questions and keep talking. He was a null read to me until these claims, with Tube being a scum read. My vote's on Ham because null + recent events, but I want more info.

P.Edit: Ok, got some new info from Ham. Don't Hammer yourself. Sheesh.

[Kazekirimaru]

NEVER SELF-HAMMER AS TOWN

This is playing against your win condition i.e grounds for future policy lynches(!)

On the other hand if you're scum please feel-free to self-hammer. Or better yet, have one of your buddies hammer you.

[hamfactorial]

@ rcwraspy

I'll answer more questions via phone, but I can't do any complicated quoting or linking back to old posts. If you're OK with short responses, I'm game to talk more.

@ Kaze

Yup, newbie hell. I didn't know this would work against my win con.

[Stardust]

Hey rcw! Having fun as town? Tell me about it.

Honestly I'm a bit frustrated right now. Tube was our most obvious scum read, and then all hell broke loose.

Yeah, yeah, those are some scum reads. But are you having fun?

[Kazekirimaru]

Yup, newbie hell. I didn't know this would work against my win con.

Self-hammering as town denies us information. Lynch wagons are very important for analysis and the hammer vote is included in that.

[rcwraspy]

@ rcwraspy

I'll answer more questions via phone, but I can't do any complicated quoting or linking back to old posts. If you're OK with short responses, I'm game to talk more.

@ Kaze

Yup, newbie hell. I didn't know this would work against my win con.

Short responses are fine, or even just letting us know you'll respond later - preferably by a specific time.

New question. If you're vanilla town, what benefit did you see in claiming before you were L-2?

[rcwraspy]

Hey rcw! Having fun as town? Tell me about it.

Honestly I'm a bit frustrated right now. Tube was our most obvious scum read, and then all hell broke loose.

Yeah, yeah, those are some scum reads. But are you having fun?

Does frustrated = fun?

[Stardust]

Damnit rcw! Let me inside your head!

That's fine. You're probably town. But you missed the chance to be confirmed.

[hamfactorial]

@ rcwraspy

I'll answer more questions via phone, but I can't do any complicated quoting or linking back to old posts. If you're OK with short responses, I'm game to talk more.

@ Kaze

Yup, newbie hell. I didn't know this would work against my win con.

Short responses are fine, or even just letting us know you'll respond later - preferably by a specific time.

New question. If you're vanilla town, what benefit did you see in claiming before you were L-2?

I was annoyed by the clusterfuck that came after TH killed Z, so I slapped out a quick response. I
assumed I would be dead soon after.

[Stardust]

Hammy! Elaborate on your chat session, please.
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v

Yeah, it didn't do anything for us. It was locked only an hour or two after the game started, before I'd made my RVS vote.

It was locked? What does that mean? You were only able to chat at night?

[imopen2]

This post, rezombad.
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Beacause I knew with my ability, one of them had to be scum... Right? Z was hounding me the entire game after I made a post that I didn't even think was that bad, so I got flustered and thought I didn't have a choice. If I got lynched without using my ability and z was scum. I would've felt terrible (unsurprisingly like how I feel now). And I figured that even if I somehow didn't hit right, ham has to be scum.

Not necessarily. I thought we were all town based on our roles, but the flavor took a hit with you getting
a daykill ability. If you get me lynched, I'll flip town and everyone will think you're scummy.

I'm in over my head here, so I'm leaving it to the more experienced town members to make sense of this mess after the bodies pile up.

None, just the neighbors and the kill

So... you're saying you can't perform the mafia nightkill?




2. Stardust - town
3. imopen2
4. Lord_McDonalds
5. hamfactorial- town
6. rezombad - town
7. Yannaria - town
8. InflatablePie
9. Kazekirimaru - town
10. rcwraspy
11. DroppinSuga - town
12. TubeHunter - town

Ugh. I'm running low on reads. Someone do something scummy or I might have to lynch imopen.

You've got to be kidding me with this list. You think dropping seems more townie than me? Please explain.

I'm very worried that if we
lynch ham and he flips town that we will lynch tube who is probably town as well. Honestly I think stardust is the best lynch toDay but if ham is the lynch that the majority wants I will acquiesce. That post that stardust pointed out does seem like a possible scum slip

Yanni, please explain your vote for stardust

[rezombad]

Ham and stardust are scumbuddies imopen.

[Kazekirimaru]

Ham and stardust are scumbuddies imopen.

Tell me all about it.

[Stardust]

You've got to be kidding me with this list. You think dropping seems more townie than me? Please explain.

http://diestoremoval.com/search.php?t=1 ... roppinsuga

Find me a scum motivated post. He's not contributing much, but he's had plenty of chances to act scummy (didn't jump on me, leads his own charges, names solid reads - no fence sitting) and has so far failed to deliver.

And don't worry about TubeHunter. He won't be lynched even if ham does flip town.

[hamfactorial]

Hammy! Elaborate on your chat session, please.
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v

Yeah, it didn't do anything for us. It was locked only an hour or two after the game started, before I'd made my RVS vote.

It was locked? What does that mean? You were only able to chat at night?

The first time I visited the quicktopic, Iso had already posted "no more talking" at 6:15. He had opened it at 4:24.

[hamfactorial]

Yes, only able to talk during pre-game and at night.

[Stardust]

That's a really weird version of neighbours. Like, almost to the point of being completely useless.

Hammy, can you talk a bit about why you thought Z might have been coached in the pregame? Did that have anything to do with your chat QT? You obviously know that pregame was short since you missed it... did you really think Z's scum buddies might have told him all the acronyms and told him how to play in that short a time frame?

[hamfactorial]

That's a really weird version of neighbours. Like, almost to the point of being completely useless.

Hammy, can you talk a bit about why you thought Z might have been coached in the pregame? Did that have anything to do with your chat QT? You obviously know that pregame was short since you missed it... did you really think Z's scum buddies might have told him all the acronyms and told him how to play in that short a time frame?

I thought that Z jumping right in and mixing it up was unusual because it was his first game. I assumed he would feel like me, unsure about how to go. I thought "if Z is scum, how would he know to play this way?". I knew about quicktopics for neighbors (open during pregame) so I assume that scum would have their
own as well, also open during pregame. In every mafia wiki I read, the mafia starts with more known information, it wouldn't make sense to give neighbors pre-game chat and not mafia. A few hours could be enough to get a strategy outline from a scumbuddy, since Z was active from the very start.

[imopen2]

You've got to be kidding me with this list. You think dropping seems more townie than me? Please explain.

http://diestoremoval.com/search.php?t=1 ... roppinsuga

Find me a scum motivated post. He's not contributing much, but he's had plenty of chances to act scummy (didn't jump on me, leads his own charges, names solid reads - no fence sitting) and has so far failed to deliver.

And don't worry about TubeHunter. He won't be lynched even if ham
does flip town.

There could never be a scum lurking/flying under the radar :rollseyes:

I'm not saying he is scum, I'm just saying he shouldn't be "town" in anyone's eyes yet. He has basically posted a bunch of erratic or gut feelings and has attempted to defend both you an ham who are the two main lynch candidates so far.

Can you tell me why he is "town"? Anyone can say they feel one thing for "gut" reasons and then suddenly change to some other opinion with no further reasoning. His reads have been far from "solid"

[InflatablePie]

unvote

need to read p11 and 12.

[Stardust]

Can you tell me why he is "town"?

Yeah, no, that list was messy. I put the town tag next to anyone I had even the weakest town read on. Yanni's still on my radar. hamfactorial is obviously still scum to me, but I gave him town status for that list because I wanted to see how the game would shape up with that assumption. That town list of mine was basically a quick look at the game if I just took the townie posts at face value. I didn't even put town next to Pie when I think he probably is. I was lacking direction and thought that might help. I still feel a bit lost, but at least I feel okay about lynching hammy. If he flips town, I think I'll be aiming for a lynch all lurkers policy because I'm reading too many people as town right now.

There could never be a scum lurking/flying under the radar :rollseyes:[/quote:
i2lh2467]
Who are you referring to here?

[Mcdonalds]

Hey Lord McD's! Are you playing this game? What's your town MO?

OOG: Chill the fuck out, unlike seemingly all of you, I can't exactly sit on my phone and read this thread at work/school.

If I were to go with my gut, I'd want to lynch some combination of ham, pie and not sure who else

Pie I am not sold on, and likely is just cause I've never played with him. Ham I feel is safe because Z flip and him randomly name dropping me in his posts (suga is about as productive as I yet I'm lurking scum)

[Stardust]

I'm lurking scum

Well that was easy.

What were you referring to when you said "Ham I feel is safe because Z flip and him randomly name dropping me in his posts"? Where's the name drop?

[InflatablePie]

imopen: the thing with not lynching the entire neighborhood eventually is that there'll still be a 'what if' factor laying around. like, if we lynch Ham and Tube stays alive (or vice-versa) people will constantly be saying "what if they're the scum neighbor?" all the way to lylo. I'm not saying it's a great idea, mind you, but honestly...

hmm. well...

see, I want to think ham is newbtown. it all fits; I was convinced he was town up until the neighborhood reveal. as for Tube, I don't think I've seen a mafia-aligned Dayvig in a while and that's the only reason I think he's town right now (especially since he shot Z, wtf). but... I also can't remember the last time I saw an all-town neighborhood either... which means either my read is wrong or I'm wrong on setup speculation. bleh.

gonna think of some setup math for a sec

[imopen2]

@stardust: I am referring to DroppingSuga. He has 24 posts so far and I would consider 11of them to be contributing, of those 11, 3 of them are gut feelings and a few of them are simply answering other people's direct questions.

[DroppinSuga]

I honestly don't like the ham lynch. I'm guessing he'll flip town and the mafia will have one helluva head start on us.

I'd like to hear more from Yanni other then shitty posts.

[Stardust]

@stardust: I am referring to DroppingSuga. He has 24 posts so far and I would consider 11of them to be contributing, of those 11, 3 of them are gut feelings and a few of them are simply answering other people's direct questions.

Dunno if 11 meaningful posts in under 3 days qualifies as lurking... But yes, of course he could still be scum. I've got a hanging question waiting for his return, in fact!

Why did you choose to focus on Suga in particular? There were several people noted as town on my list that could be considered questionable. And why the direct comparison to yourself?



Speak of the devil. Suga, you didn't fully answer my questions [url=viewtopic.php?p=145311#p145311]here[/url:
3k2pecrk]. Please do.

[imopen2]

Pie: yes, I see what you're saying about the lingering doubts that may distract us if we don't figure out this neighbor business but I still think we lynch our biggest scum suspect based on posts and not based on flavor gaming.

There are a few possible scenarios for the neighborhood and most of them end poorly for us.

Tube is scum and ham is town: we mislynch ham and probably assume that tube is also town
Tube is town and ham is scum: we get our scum lynch
Tube is town and ham is town: mislynch ham
Tube is scum and ham is scum: super unlikely but then we lynch our scum and have tube as pretty much confirmed town even tho he isn't.

Hmm...now that I type it all out it isn't as bad as I thought.

I think I still want to lynch stardust...he's been playing way more loose with gambits and reads this game than I remember him ever playing before.

[Mcdonalds]

I'm lurking scum

Well that was easy.

What were you referring to when you said "Ham I feel is safe because Z flip and him randomly name dropping me in his posts"? Where's the name drop?

How?

I'll show you when I get home, it's in two of his posts

@imopen, I get the feeling your overthinking it a tad, unless ISO is a complete troll.

Which is a possibility but let's not discuss that now

[Stardust]

Hammy! I have just given you a dayvig shot which you must use immediately. Who do you shoot and why? What do you expect they will flip and what will that tell you about other players?

[DroppinSuga]

@stardust: I am referring to DroppingSuga. He has 24 posts so far and I would consider 11of them to be contributing, of those 11, 3 of them are gut feelings and a few of them are simply answering other people's direct questions.

Dunno if 11 meaningful posts in under 3 days qualifies as lurking... But yes, of course he could still be scum. I've got a hanging question waiting for his return, in fact!

Why did you choose to focus on Suga in particular? There were several people noted as town on my list that could be considered questionable. And why the direct comparison to yourself?




Speak of the devil. Suga, you didn't fully answer my questions here. Please do.

My guess is that they're both town. I guess if I had to guess, ham is town and tube would be the lynch target.

[Stardust]

I think I still want to lynch stardust...he's been playing way more loose with gambits and reads this game than I remember him ever playing before.

That's your reasoning?

1) Are scum players more likely to play loose?
2) Why didn't you mention my scum slips?

[imopen2]

@stardust: I am referring to DroppingSuga. He has 24 posts so far and I would consider 11of them to be contributing, of those 11, 3 of them are gut feelings and a few of them are simply answering other people's direct questions.

Dunno if 11 meaningful posts in under 3 days qualifies as lurking... But yes, of course he could still be scum. I've got a hanging question waiting for his return, in fact!

Why did you choose to focus on Suga in particular? There were several people noted as town on my list that could be considered questionable. And why the direct comparison to yourself?



nSpeak of the devil. Suga, you didn't fully answer my questions here. Please do.

We are nearly 500 posts so I would consider 11/24 posts being contributing to qualify as lurk status. It's not like he hasn't been here, he just hasn't contributed.

I focused on DroppingSuga in your list because other than him, all your other "town" reads matched up with what you were saying at the time other than maybe yanni (I can't remember your opinion of him) and I compared it to myself because I was te only person you didn't mark as town that I know is town.

If 11/472 doesn't qualify then what does? LMD has less than him but its only been 3 days. Does he get a pass too?

[imopen2]

You guys just posted a bunch. Reading...

[InflatablePie]

most common setups for a 12p are: 3 scum, 2 scum, 2 scum and a third party (usually a SK)

3-scum:
9:3 (initial ratio)
8:3 (post-daykill)
7:3 (if we mislynch today)
6:3 (start of D2, if one town dies)
5:3 (misylynch again)
4:3 (start of D3)

so if there are three scum in the game, and the dayvig is the only role with an extra kill, we have two mislynches until LYLO. meaning, if we want to, we can lynch the neighborhood. either we hit scum, or at the worst case, if it's an all-town neighborhood we go straight to LYLO.

2-scum is the same except we have an extra townie, and an extra lynch. which would still allow us to lynch the neighborhood or two other townies (worst-case they flip town, again) AND lynch another player before getting to a 3:2 LYLO. the downside with this is that if there are two scum, I highly doubt that the mod would make one of them a neighbor. that seems bad. so if we
think there's two scum a neighbor lynch is out of the question.

2-scum and an SK:
9:2:1 (initial)
8:2:1 (current)
7:2:1 (if we ML)
5:2:1 (if 2x town die tonight)

I have a hard time figuring out MYLO/LYLO when SKs are involved. But if we mislynch twice, and scum+SK both hit town 2 nights in a row, it's at 2:2:1, which doesn't seem great for town. also not lynching the neighbors in this situation.

so I think we need to figure out today what we're doing. either we lynch the neighborhood to rule out scum, or they're both staying alive until LYLO. if we don't lynch ham or Tube but still hit a mislynch here, we're not lynching them tomorrow. can't afford to; if there's 3 scum we don't have another ML and if there's 2 they're both town.

I actually think ham is a safe lynch from a strategic perspective. without considering my townread on him, he may be our best lynch here. claimed vanilla, so no chance of hitting a PR and he's a neighbor in a 3-neighbor setup where one has flipped town.
with one of the alive neighbors being a dayvig, he's very much the better lynch. actually, I don't think Tube is scum now that I think about it, because there's more likely a chance to be an all-town neighborhood than a scum dayvig. either it's an all-town neighborhood or ham is scum, either way Tube is town.

so... I'm starting to lean towards actually wanting to lynch a townread today I guess.

I'm gonna get ready for work and mull it over for a while.

[pedit] honestly I've had more success lynching off of roleclaims and optimal lynch strategies than my reads (that usually happen to be wrong). actually had to do that in the last game I was in, but it's not really relevant right now.

[imopen2]

I think I still want to lynch stardust...he's been playing way more loose with gambits and reads this game than I remember him ever playing before.

That's your reasoning?

1) Are scum players more likely to play loose?
2) Why didn't you mention my scum slips?

No that's not my only reasoning. All my previous reasoning still stands. That was just an additional observation.

Don't try to WIFOM. You are playing more loose, it is an
observation. Does it mean you are scum? No. Does it mean you are playing different than normal? Yes.

[DroppinSuga]

I'd really like to hear what people think of Yanni. He's getting away with posting stupid shit and not making any relevant posts.