The Boondocks Mafia (Town Win)

[Stardust]

Dan, I moved my vote to GR between Iso and Kaze. Sorry for not putting it on a new line.

[Yannaria]

so suga actually is a double voter.
fine with leaving him alive for now
unvote vote kaze

[Manders]

I'm here and I'm going to try to catch up as much as I can right now. Whatever's left, I'll get done tomorrow.

[Manders]

I've got the posts I want to respond to, but I'm out of time. I'll make the post tomorrow.

[Nuwen]

G_R's vote for Stardust is townish; Stardust's reaction seems scummier than anything G_R has said or done to this point.

In the aftermath of a town claim, I usually expect scum to either lurk about until the game's directionchanges (McDonald, Manders) OR swap back to an easy fodder lynch (Stardust's vote for imopen). Stardust hits a second strike by kneejerk voting for G_R, because Stardust probably realized that G_R was another open-ended option.

A couple of Stardust's posts come off as disingenuous contentblather to me. Here's one from a week ago:

Note to self: Look into GR, Kaze, imopen scumteam.

Note to everyone else: I rarely post over the weekend. Don't expect a reply from me until the following Monday.

nHis rational for "relationship hunting" among all of today's top lynch candidates is pretty weak. I just see thin excuses to pressure these people & invent connections as a method of fake scumhunting.

- Noteable omissions! GR made no comment regarding my "attempt" to end the Day, even after I prodded him. A lot of this attempt was meant to glean information on GR's relationship with Kaze, something that his silence perhaps is an indication of. Of course, scumGR may have seen it as a trap and responded as such, so Kaze as town has little bearing on GR's alignment.


Anyway, in the end I'm still not 100% on Kaze, but I'm more than willing to stop voting him and push against imopen2. He's had some juicy interaction with my other lead for scum, GR, and after this latest round of accusing everyone for everything, I'm more sure about him than ever.

Unvote, Vote imopen2.

This says "I'm
willing to vote anything today! ~~~"

unvote

[Stardust]

Not anyone, just those three. The only thing I'm not sure about is which one I'm most sure about, if you get my meaning. I'm currently least sure about Kaze, but I'm happy to vote either imopen2 or GR. Not sure how you can get anything else out of that.

Also, you say "swap back to an easy fodder lynch", but I was never on Suga. I changed my vote from Kaze to imopen. Suga's claim had nothing to do with that.

I guess I'm just overall confused by your post. I have a fairly strong town read on you, but this is just three complete falsehoods.

[Nuwen]

Identifying three individuals who might or might not be scum is normal.

Identifying three individuals who might be scum and then trying to link them all together is a way to create words. Most importantly, the post establishes that [b:jtosch4k]if Kaze is town[/b:jtosch4k] his alignment has no bearing on G_R's. This is awkwardly logicked. The shortest line of thinking here should be:

If Kaze town, G_R could be scum voting on an easy mislynch

If Kaze scum, G_R is bussing because ??? or is town

Instead Stardust's post goes directly to the more complex rationalization that they could ALL be scum, and potentially ALL scum together. Occam's says Stardust's motivations are keeping his lynch options as open as possible, which would be the driving force for a scum player here.

People besides Stardust are welcome to weigh in. I could be seeing what I want to see.

[Stardust]

That's actually my point. Given that GR got off the Kaze wagon and then had nothing to say about it when I pushed it, I took it to mean that he may be declining from commenting for other reasons. As scum, those reasons could be either that he saw my question as a trap or that he had no interest in actually pushing a bus once it started gaining momentum. In one of those options Kaze is town, in the other he's scum. Therefore Kaze's alignment has no bearing. I like to point out these interactions and the consequences thereof when I see them not because I think they're very valuable Day 1, but because it can make future days much easier since I find it difficult to wrap my head around the deeper connections when doing a big reread.

You say I'm creating words, and in some cases maybe it won't come to much, but I like to make sure my puzzle pieces fit.

[( G_R )]

You said it's hard to read silence, and I tell you that you cannot read it, because there is nothing to read. But you got reads anyway, and to me those aren't reads but fabrications of your own.

And the fact that you are putting little traps for people is not something I appreciate. What I take from that is that your pushing for Kaze's wagon was a lie in the end. Guess which faction is the one who plays using lies?

[Nuwen]

You say I'm creating words, and in some cases maybe it won't come to much, but I like to make sure my puzzle pieces fit.

Never said Stardust was internally inconsistent, just that his PoV story doesn't make much sense if that's what he really thinks is going on.

So we're left to believe that he's said a LOT of things without having a handle on the game, or that he's just trying to produce content reads that sort-of-not-really make sense together.

If he really though G_R was scum, Stardust had the opportunity to join that wagon BEFORE G_R lit a fire under his ass. Instead, Stardust voted for imopen. Stardust wants us to believe he was pursuing a long-held scum read by voting for Imopen.

I say that Imopen is lynch prey (doesn't
fight back in a way that's compelling to readers, posts under the influence, doesn't really have solid reads yet). Stardust cut his prey loose only because G_R became more threatening by voting for him, plus he had already laid the internally inconsistent groundwork to "find" G_R scum.

Stardust's priority reads as threat management. He COULD have chosen to vote for G_R ages ago, but had no reason to estrange an ally - G_R hadn't confessed his scum read until that point. In a panic, Stardust, crossvotes with G_R because other people are already voting for G_R too. He thinks G_R's wagon will gain traction much faster than imopon's, hence the vote change.

[Nuwen]

I say that Imopen is lynch prey (doesn't fight back in a way that's compelling to readers, posts under the influence, doesn't really have solid reads yet). Stardust cut his prey loose only because G_R became more threatening by voting for him, plus he had already laid the internally *consistent groundwork to "find" G_R scum.

fixed

[Stardust]

Well then I guess I suck at logic. Sorry guys, we're not lynching GR today either. And I'm also sorry to let you know that I don't trust your judgement nor reputation from elsewhere, because you (both) seem to be tunneling on me, and I happen to know that I'm not scum.

This right here is why I wanted to leave GR until tomorrow. I've said this many times (though never why since I didn't want to draw attention to his breadcrumb). This post gave me pause both because it felt townie and because I felt that he was essentially claiming a power role.

The post immediately before my vote on him changed all that. I dunno, the fact that you can'
t see it is making me think I actually am under the influence of OMGUS, but that post was balls-deep scummy in my mind.

...his PoV story doesn't make much sense if that's what he really thinks is going on.

What doesn't make sense? You're choosing to read my posts in a different light, but that doesn't mean my point of view doesn't make sense. Everything that you've pointed to could have a scum mindset, sure, but it makes perfect sense from a town mindset as well. I'm there, right now.

I'm a little bit miffed that you're saying I don't have a handle on the game though. I'm feeling pretty good about my play and reads so far considering we don't have anything concrete to go on.

[Iso]

While I don't disagree with Nuwen's logic necessarily, I think Stardust is pretty town right now. The fact that Nuwen has been pushing the G_R lynch and then paradigm shifted over to Stardust when the G_R wagon gained traction (read: when the Suga wagon disbanded) suggests to me a few things - that being that Nuwen is scum, was busing G_R, and was expecting the Day to end with the Suga lynch (so that when G_R inevitably gets lynched, Nuwen can get town credit for being an early pusher, as well as setting herself up to vote him later on). The rationale doesn't bother me - the timing does. I want to lynch either G_R or Nuwen now, with G_R being scummier. If G_R flips scum, that's as good as a confirmation that Nuwen is scum in my eyes. If not, then I'll probably have to reassess where I stand on Nuwen.

[( G_R )]

Alright, I want to present my case on Stardust, because he should IMO be the lynch today. These are the things I started noticing when reading Stardust's posts:

Fucking big posts and my take on them

---

Man, I hear that Kazikame guy likes to post. He should do that.

I've read a bit about the subject. Scum, and more specifically noob scum, will try to justify a RSV vote with some "truly random" means, in order to avoid giving away anything about their alignment. It is a serious scum tell and like someone else has pointed out (in this game and another I was in), many
a scum have been caught that way.

That's not exactly the answer I was looking for, but I'm going to drop it anyway since I decided now that the question I meant to ask is useless too.

"I really dislike this post from Iso. Completely ignores Kazikame's wagon (arguably the biggest thing that's happened in the game to this point) and deflects attention back to rezombad. Token question to Kamikaze will look real bad if K flips scum."

I addressed the Kaze wagon - I stated I didn't understand it and nobody cared to clarify it for me. Ergo, it's full of hot air.

Why didn't you mention it in your first post of the game?

&
quot;Approximate hit percentage of this tactic? I know at least one game you were in where this failed."

Remind me of the time it didn't work?

I'd say at least 75%. I can't remember specifically all the times I've seen this catch scum but it's a valid catch more often than not and I do remember Manders catching Yanni this way in Stick It! Mafia which was what originally made me aware of the scummy nature of such an action.

Teia as Doc in MM6.

So, at 75%, would you say it's worthwhile lynching people who do this regardless of other evidence? Aside from that, he's got noob town written all over him. Considering I've seen tactics like this fail twice and never work, I'm inclined to believe the other evidence in this case.

"Huh, this reads like you're scared. Not sure I've seen
this side of you, Iso."

Iso fears nothing. Ask Manders.

Umm, okay.

MANDERS! What the hell is Iso talking about?

(I still think you're scared)

"Point to his towniness, please. Alternatively, point to the scum orchestrators of his wagon."

I explained my take on Kaze's mindset about his wagon. As for scum pushing the wagon, sure, at some point, but not right now.

Yes, you did say you hadn't seen anything anti-town, then went on to defend his frustration. Do you believe Kaze is town?

What about this post specifically. You believe Kaze when he says it was meant to be a trap?
n

"Breadcrumbing already, Iso? A bit early for that, no?"

It's never too early for baking, my friend.

Disagree. That was completely unnecessary. Feels more like you're working on solidifying yourself as a power role than working towards a townie goal here.

I suppose I should explain for everyone else that Iso as scum has never claimed vanilla. If he claims vanilla, he's town. As scum, he needs to set himself up to claim a power role. That's what I think he's doing here since there is no town motivation for coming out otherwise.

Just expressing his suspicions about Iso, having exposed his breadcrumbing in a previous post. Nothing scummy about that, right? Note the last bit
about Iso's metagamestyle. Also note the lack of vote.

2 parts gut, 1 part Kaze jumping on him. It feels like bussing.

Ah yes. I can see that.

You'll see.

Breadcrumbing already, Iso? A bit early for that, no?

Why are you bringing attention to it? You should know better than that.

I would
have kept my mouth shut if I actually believed he was a town PR. There's good reason to bring attention to it.

I won't ask you for your take on his townie motivation, but I can't see it.

MANDERS! What the hell is Iso talking about?

Even when he's at L-1, Iso's not scared. He actually thrives in high-intensity situations.

He's never scared. I'm used to it. He loves the pressure.

Hmm, maybe we should be giving him the chance to thrive then. Vote Iso.

Ah, there's the vote.

1) I don't believe you.
2) Why didn't you vote for imopen2 in your previous post when you accused him of rolefishing?

1. Okay.
2. Because I was waiting for his response to my accusations at the time.

He never did respond to you directly. This is the post that lead to you vote him. What did you learn from this?

Approximate hit percentage of this tactic? I know at least one game you were in where this failed.

You keep bringing this up against Iso. Why is this in particular so important to you? A purely random RVS vote is a known scumtell.

It's the only real reasoning he's given for pointing at rezombad (which I read as a deflection). I checked after my last post on the subject. Of the seven games I've been directly involved in five of those had someone random voting, self-voting, voting for everyone or explicitly voting for noone in RVS. All five of those people caught flak for it and all five of them were town. "Known", yes, but unreliable.

Continuing with the wall... Why did you ignore Nuwen's issues with Iso's handling of your wagon? Does that help with your null read here at all? Speaking of which, what is your read on Iso (and why)?

Because it didn't affect my scumread on her. Why would it?

Mainly because it's a question I feel you should have been asking yourself. It was directly related to your wagon and, in my opinion, was a very informative post - probably the most informative post on the topic of Nuwen's alignment. You say that you think Iso may be scum. Since you "know" you're town, why did Nuwen post that?

[quote="Kazekirimaru » Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:11 am":
1ociws28]I'd like to see what comes of him from his breadcrumb in the future. It suggests he has power to control the lynch.

Hmm... perhaps I'm wrong that Kazikame and Iso are scum together...

May I ask what you were thinking here?

... I was going to decline, but for the sake of the newbies I'll spell this one out. Basically, Iso as scum is breadcrumbing a fake claim that he's brewing. His scum buddy Kaze pressures him to give more detail. Very unlikely scenario. That alone points to at least one of you being town.

Btw, where is this "Kamikaze/Kazikame" nickname coming from? You can call me Kaze if my name's too long. If it's just an individual nickname quirkiness thing then I guess I'll roll with it.

This is what I see when glancing at your username. Kazikame sounds right enough that I second-guessed myself and had to google the correct spelling of kamikaze.

I suppose I should explain for everyone else that Iso as scum has never
claimed vanilla. If he claims vanilla, he's town. As scum, he needs to set himself up to claim a power role. That's what I think he's doing here since there is no town motivation for coming out otherwise.

So Iso is scum for claiming to not be vanilla...?

Iso is scum for breadcrumbing when town has no business doing so.


Anyway, I'm feeling better about you all the time. Thanks for the responses.[/quote]
I saved this post because of the interaction with Kaze. Another line about why "Iso is scum". I happen to disagree with the line. I've been doc in my last couple games and I both had to breadcrumb in order to help the town, and used breadcrumbing to prevent night kills. After Manders' intervention, he drops it off just like that here.

@Stardust - how many games have you played with Iso?

2 full games plus one that got abandoned end of a long Day 1.

In my opinion, the Iso wagon is weak at this point. It needs more before I'll be back on it.

I believe DroppinSuga has a role that enacts when he is targeted at night, so he is eager to bring the night and get targeted.

Stop with the role speculation.

Why do you think he's more likely to be town than scum?

Oh shit. You do think he's scum, don't you? Nevermind. Carry on.

"You guys are sufficiently separated at this point as far as I'm concerned."

Manders and myself or Kaze and myself?

Kaze.

But I'll defer to your judgment.

Why would you do that?



So... I'd be okay with a Suga lynch. DroppinSuga! Give me some content! I directed questions to you specifically in my first post of the game. I'd appreciate an answer.

Says his Iso wagon is weak, but leaves it open for a revisit. Then he says he's OK with lynching Suga. For someone who writes all those big posts and asks so many questions, it stroke me as odd that he didn't say WHY he'd be okay with that, but instead... he
asked yet another question!

I don't think anything about G_R and imopen, but the DroppingSuga request for a nolynch at the end of day one doesn't sit well with me. Not that it automatically means he is scum, but usually you always lynch someone otherwise it sets you back as town so...

On a more positive note this day one is picking up, glad we're done quickly with the RVS

Vote Col. Khaddafi.

Furthermore, here's an unexplained vote based on a reply by the Colonel. At the time I shrugged it off because I had Stardust labeled as town, and as I pointed out, I'm always weary of making a decision about Scumbag's
alignment.

I've never met anyway who assumed mafia had day chat. Mafia act at night. This is the normal assumption. Manders is right, the fact that you assumed the opposite is suspicious.

Directed at imopen2, just "poking suspicion" . For the time being, there was no further questioning of this supsicious character, but pokes at other players for content, and...

Lord McD's! Are you reading the thread? What's happening right now?

Fate! I actually really do want to get more content from you. Sounds like
you're a good player. Maybe you can prove it? Still some unanswered questions from way back that I'd appreciate answers to as well.


I would most like to lynch imopen2 or Col. Khaddafi at the moment. ( G_R ) I'm currently seeing as a coin flip. If you want my support on that wagon, you're going to have to help me out.

Still nothing about why Khaddafi is a good lynch candidate, nor imopen for that matter. Also asking others for reasons to vote me, instead of either trying to clear me out or push harder for me. This strikes me as trying to seek others to push the wagon, so he can hop on later. As noted by Suga himself, there's not even mention about that wagon either.

Note to self: Look into GR, Kaze, imopen scumteam.

Note to everyone else: I rarely post over the weekend. Don't expect a reply
from me until the following Monday.

What about Khaddafi? Why is the vote still there? Why was it there in the first place? And the "note to self" is obviously hinting others to look into those players.

You're so cute when you tunnel me, Stardust. <3

Cute?! Cute is the cheerleaders sittin' on the sidelines. I ain't cute.

But who's tunneling? I thought you were scum, then I didn't, then you started acting scummy again. Handwave noted, however.

@
Stardust: How does Iso's play so far stack up against the other games you've played with him?

It's been a while, but it seems like Iso to me. I've never played or followed an Iso scum game and I'm not interested in using meta to clear someone as town anyway. Iso least of all.

You asked about drawing attention later on. That's Iso, all the time.

On my comment about being wary of Nuwen commandeering operations, I'd point out people to the Agata Christie's novel 10 Little Niggers. Judge Wargrave came to mind.

Explain what you mean by this.

This reads so fake.

You've been happy enough to respond to Spammy's questions with "read my posts" up until now (justifiably), but only now do you kick a bit of dirt back his way. I don't like that this immediately follows Manders' comment that Spammy might be trying to get shit to stick. Opportunism noted.



In other news, I would like to leave GR until tomorrow. Kaze should be the lynch today.

Unvote, Vote Kazekirimaru.

Here he says that he's not interested in using meta to clear people as town, yet he's been asking about and using people's metas. Townies want to clear people as town, because they don't want to mislynch anyone.

We should end the Day, or at least get things moving in that direction.
Everyone either get on the Kaze wagon or say why you'd rather not.

Introducing false dichotomy, as noted by LMcd's

In conclusion, Stardust is asking a lot of questions. But it is my perception (and to some degree he has confirmed it himself) that he is asking these questions not to clear people as town, but to find things that make people scummy. Guess what? You want to find scum, but you also want to avoid mislynching, especially a power role, and what he did with Iso early-game is the opposite.

My proposed course of action is lynching Stardust today, and check Kaze's alignment via the pertinent PR, while our protective role could keep Suga safe. I'm more certain about Stardust than Kaze, but after they both hopped on my wagon immediately, I am more convinced that they are scumbuddies, and that they were busing each other. If you read their posts with the mentality that imopen2 is sloppy town, you can see a team effort to set him up for a lynch, and the
other player taking part on that is Yannus. I can see the team being them three, but Yannus needs further analysis, as well as other players who could just be hiding behind the scenes for the time being.

[Nuwen]

While I don't disagree with Nuwen's logic necessarily, I think Stardust is pretty town right now. The fact that Nuwen has been pushing the G_R lynch and then paradigm shifted over to Stardust when the G_R wagon gained traction[/b] (read: when the Suga wagon disbanded) suggests to me a few things - that being that Nuwen is scum, was busing G_R, and was expecting the Day to end with the Suga lynch (so that when G_R inevitably gets lynched, Nuwen can get town credit for being an early pusher, as well as setting herself up to vote him later on). The rationale doesn't bother me - the timing does. I want to lynch either G_R or Nuwen now, with G_R being scummier. If G_R flips scum, that's as good as a confirmation that Nuwen is scum
in my eyes. If not, then I'll probably have to reassess where I stand on Nuwen.

Except Stardust's "wagon" isn't yet a wagon, because G_R is the only person voting for him. I wanted to see who'd come out to play first. G_R still has votes on him, even with mine removed. THAT'S a wagon.

Your logic shits on Occam too. What kind of scum commits to a hard bus, then waffles later on for no reason? You understand that the point of bussing is to obtain town cred by lynching scum? If you're bussing, you defeat your own purpose by dropping the case. The phrase "throw your partner under the bus" literally means "I am better at this game without you, peace nukka!"


~~

Why is the word BUSSING making such a big appearance without even one scum flip? None of you have proved to me that you're keen enough to catch one scum, let alone two at once. Sit down.

[Nuwen]

While I don't disagree with Nuwen's logic necessarily, I think Stardust is pretty town right now. The fact that Nuwen has been pushing the G_R lynch and then paradigm shifted over to Stardust when the G_R wagon gained traction (read: when the Suga wagon disbanded) suggests to me a few things - that being that Nuwen is scum, was busing G_R, and was expecting the Day to end with the Suga lynch (so that when G_R inevitably gets lynched, Nuwen can get town credit for being an early pusher, as well as setting herself up to vote him later on). The rationale doesn't
bother me - the timing does. I want to lynch either G_R or Nuwen now, with G_R being scummier. If G_R flips scum, that's as good as a confirmation that Nuwen is scum in my eyes. If not, then I'll probably have to reassess where I stand on Nuwen.

Except Stardust's "wagon" isn't yet a wagon, because G_R is the only person voting for him. I wanted to see who'd come out to play first. G_R still has votes on him, even with mine removed. THAT'S a wagon.

Your logic shits on Occam too. What kind of scum commits to a hard bus, then waffles later on for no reason? You understand that the point of bussing is to obtain town cred by lynching scum? If you're bussing, you defeat your own purpose by dropping the case. The phrase "throw your partner under the bus" literally means "I am better at this game without you, peace nukka!"


~~

Why is the word BUSSING making such a big appearance without even one scum flip? None of you have
proved to me that you're keen enough to catch one scum, let alone two at once. Sit down.

phone post bbcode fixed etc.

[Nuwen]

That maybe came off rude. Sorry in advance.

[Kazekirimaru]

I just realized something.

I'd like to reiteriate:

vote: Kaze

Suga, this was an attempt to double-vote, wasn't it? The votecount would have revealed your second vote, so why were you attempting to hide it this way? That makes no sense.

Did you think the vote wouldn't show on the votecount?

[DroppinSuga]

I was hoping the vote count wouldn't show it and I didn't want to make it obvious that I had two votes since that makes me quite a target for the scummers now.

[Kazekirimaru]

Why did you choose the time you did to reveal you were a doublevoter? How was it beneficial to the town?

[DroppinSuga]

It was beneficial to me since the wagons were forming.

[imopen2]

I think it was a great time to reveal the ability

[imopen2]

Why did you choose the time you did to reveal you were a doublevoter? How was it beneficial to the town?

And how is this helpful to the town?

[Kazekirimaru]

I think it was a great time to reveal the ability

Good for you. Why?

Why did you choose the time you did to reveal you were a doublevoter? How was it beneficial to the town?

And how is this helpful to the town?

How is asking questions helpful to the town? Oh, I don't know...

[imopen2]

I think it was a great time to reveal the ability

Good for you. Why?

Why did you choose the time you did to reveal you were a doublevoter? How was it beneficial to the town?

And how is this helpful to the town?

How is asking
questions helpful to the town? Oh, I don't know...

No, how is it helpful to question suga about his decision to reveal when he is basically confirmed town at this point? there is literally nothing to be gained. i assume you had some reason for asking him?

[Kazekirimaru]

Why do you assume he's confirmed town? He's confirmed doublevoter, yes, and it's likely he is indeed a town role; but doublevoter is not inherently a town role, and he is not confirmed town.

It's never a bad idea to ask questions.

[Nuwen]

When the STONER tells you not to chase butterflies down Tangent Lane...

Dude, where's your carscum read? Stardust yes/no?

[Manders]

Manders, are you going to respond to me, or just spambolic?

Obviously just to him, or I would have responded to you.

He never answered your question, then. I saw nothing regarding a "hasty post" from him. Are you not wanting an answer to it?

Are you daft? I answered his question in post 326. You even quoted and bolded my response.

Yeah, I see it now. I'm not sure what happened there.

Chill the fuck out, though. You should have let Spambolic answer for that.

[quote="Lord_Mcdonalds":
1gbl03v5]@Manders (I realized I never actually did answer your question from page 1/2): I did mention I was an idiot right, that aside, I wanted to hear from you why you were voting Kaze, I get there are several people that are new, but I wanted to hear (in your words) why your were voting for him.[/quote]
Well, I wasn't anymore by the time you posted this, but I've been saying why all game.

- DroppingSuga is scum, He has posted more than I yet his posts still have the same amount of content as mine, also the proxy vote seems off, course it may just be I've never seen that in the games I've read on MTGS

Given your comments on Suga, what do you think of Fate?

- Imopen2, which of his posts mentioned a mafia day chat, there was one (I saw posts referencing it) yet I can't find it, that aside, I'm fairly certain this guy is a stoner (as he says he is), not sure whether that's him trying to make excuses for his posts or he is actually high
while posting.

OMG, ok, time to nip this shit in the bud. (No pun intended.)
1) I'm almost positive imopen2 posts while under the influence of marijuana.
2) I guarantee you, I've probably been under the influence while working on a lot of the posts I've made ITT.
3) Drug/Alcohol use should not be used to justify poorly made/thought out posts, not will it be by me. If you can't keep from doing stupid shit while drunk or high, keep your ass away from Mafia while drunk or high.

Who is sheeping who I made this G_R wagon with my own sweat and blood

All you did was vote him. You made no case.

I made the fucking Kaze wagon too which IM TRYING TO DISMANTLE

but scum are just far too happy to have that mislynch

stop being blind people

Who started
the Kaze wagon? It most certainly wasn't you. Why are you attempting to claim credit for it?

Manders, if you're still counting, I am officially against a name claim.

I am still counting, and I already have you down as "For". Why have you changed your mind?

Why the question mark?

Because I don't know what will be accomplished by claiming names.

Why would you agree to something
if you don't know what it will accomplish?

I figured her statement was town motivated. At the time I guessed there was a good reason.

Why did you assume it was Town motivated, exactly?

We should end the Day, or at least get things moving in that direction. Everyone either get on the Kaze wagon or say why you'd rather not.

I don't like any of this post

1) It implies we should either be a) voting for Kaze or b) actively defending him/not voting for him, that those unconvinced (I, and possibly others) need to make a definitive stance on whether he is or is not scum

2) It implies that the only real scum-suspect (or whatever vernacular is prefered) is Kaze, despite decent arguments for others (GR, DroppinSuga, imopen, due note, I do not per se
think they are scum, just that arguments have been made regarding them) being thrown around

3) His follow up to this (responding to whether this is a false dichotomy or not) actually makes me think this is even more so

"Either you're voting Kaze or you're not. If you're not, there should be a reason, even if that's simply that you think he's town"

Again, it presents a scenario that we have to decide whether he is town or not (I'm not convinced of either, Nuwen's arguements from earlier make a pretty compelling case, yet my gut tells me he isn't based on my own experience with a similar situation), not only that, he either a) refuses to admit that it is a false dichotomy, b) doesn't believe that it is or c) has no idea what one is (which I doubt), if he didn't believe it is, he would've elaborated further, yet he didn't, implying that A, he doesn't want to admit to it being one, he's presenting a fairly black and white situation that either a) I feel kaze is scum and thus am
voting him or b) I feel that he isn't scum (implying that I believe he is town, least his words do) and thus not voting him.

I'm not sure "False Dichotomy" is the right term for this, but then again I refuse to learn all those silly debate terms. I get what you're saying, though, and I'm in agreement.

Also this is a different site, comparing my MS meta to here is pretty silly. Over there I say things and they get listened to, so you can see why I'm less interested in saying things here


Like I said before, after a couple flips of me being right you'll all come around to listening to me and then I'll lead you sad fucks to victory

I'm really getting tired of the condescending attitude. Why do you think you're better than us?

so suga actually is a
double voter.
fine with leaving him alive for now
unvote vote kaze

What are your reasons for suspecting Kaze?

People besides Stardust are welcome to weigh in. I could be seeing what I want to see.

I was going to say that I think that is precisely what is happening, but this post swayed me:

Alright, I want to present my case on Stardust, because he should IMO be the lynch today. These are the things I started noticing when reading Stardust's posts:

Fucking big posts and my take on them

---

Man, I hear that Kazikame guy likes to post. He should do that.

I've read a bit about the subject. Scum, and more specifically noob scum, will try to justify a RSV vote with some "truly random" means, in order to avoid giving away anything about their alignment. It is a serious scum tell and like someone else has pointed out (in this game and another I was in), many a scum have been caught that way.

That's not exactly the answer I was looking for, but I'm going to drop it anyway since I decided now that the question I meant to ask is useless too.

"I really dislike this post from Iso. Completely ignores Kazikame's wagon (arguably the biggest thing that's happened in the game to this point) and
deflects attention back to rezombad. Token question to Kamikaze will look real bad if K flips scum."

I addressed the Kaze wagon - I stated I didn't understand it and nobody cared to clarify it for me. Ergo, it's full of hot air.

Why didn't you mention it in your first post of the game?

"Approximate hit percentage of this tactic? I know at least one game you were in where this failed."

Remind me of the time it didn't work?

I'd say at least 75%. I can't remember specifically all the times I've seen this catch scum but it's a valid catch more often than not and I do remember Manders catching Yanni this way in Stick It! Mafia which was what originally made me aware of the scummy nature of such an action.

Teia as Doc in MM6.

So, at 75%, would you say it's
worthwhile lynching people who do this regardless of other evidence? Aside from that, he's got noob town written all over him. Considering I've seen tactics like this fail twice and never work, I'm inclined to believe the other evidence in this case.

"Huh, this reads like you're scared. Not sure I've seen this side of you, Iso."

Iso fears nothing. Ask Manders.

Umm, okay.

MANDERS! What the hell is Iso talking about?

(I still think you're scared)

"Point to his towniness, please. Alternatively, point to the scum
orchestrators of his wagon."

I explained my take on Kaze's mindset about his wagon. As for scum pushing the wagon, sure, at some point, but not right now.

Yes, you did say you hadn't seen anything anti-town, then went on to defend his frustration. Do you believe Kaze is town?

What about this post specifically. You believe Kaze when he says it was meant to be a trap?

"Breadcrumbing already, Iso? A bit early for that, no?"

It's never too early for baking, my friend.

Disagree. That was completely unnecessary. Feels more like you're working on solidifying yourself as a power role
than working towards a townie goal here.

I suppose I should explain for everyone else that Iso as scum has never claimed vanilla. If he claims vanilla, he's town. As scum, he needs to set himself up to claim a power role. That's what I think he's doing here since there is no town motivation for coming out otherwise.

Just expressing his suspicions about Iso, having exposed his breadcrumbing in a previous post. Nothing scummy about that, right? Note the last bit about Iso's metagamestyle. Also note the lack of vote.

2 parts gut, 1 part Kaze jumping on him. It feels like bussing.

Ah yes. I can see that.

You'll see.

Breadcrumbing already, Iso? A bit early for that, no?

Why are you bringing attention to it? You should know better than that.

I would have kept my mouth shut if I actually believed he was a town PR. There's good reason to bring attention to it.

I won't ask you for your take on his townie motivation, but I can't see it.

[quote="Stardust » Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:47 am&
quot;]MANDERS! What the hell is Iso talking about?

Even when he's at L-1, Iso's not scared. He actually thrives in high-intensity situations.

He's never scared. I'm used to it. He loves the pressure.

Hmm, maybe we should be giving him the chance to thrive then. Vote Iso.

Ah, there's the vote.

1) I don't believe you.
2) Why didn't you vote for imopen2 in your previous post when
you accused him of rolefishing?

1. Okay.
2. Because I was waiting for his response to my accusations at the time.

He never did respond to you directly. This is the post that lead to you vote him. What did you learn from this?

Approximate hit percentage of this tactic? I know at least one game you were in where this failed.

You keep bringing this up against Iso. Why is this in particular so important to you? A purely random RVS vote is a known scumtell.

It's the only real reasoning he's given for pointing at
rezombad (which I read as a deflection). I checked after my last post on the subject. Of the seven games I've been directly involved in five of those had someone random voting, self-voting, voting for everyone or explicitly voting for noone in RVS. All five of those people caught flak for it and all five of them were town. "Known", yes, but unreliable.

Continuing with the wall... Why did you ignore Nuwen's issues with Iso's handling of your wagon? Does that help with your null read here at all? Speaking of which, what is your read on Iso (and why)?

Because it didn't affect my scumread on her. Why would it?

nMainly because it's a question I feel you should have been asking yourself. It was directly related to your wagon and, in my opinion, was a very informative post - probably the most informative post on the topic of Nuwen's alignment. You say that you think Iso may be scum. Since you "know" you're town, why did Nuwen post that?

I'd like to see what comes of him from his breadcrumb in the future. It suggests he has power to control the lynch.

Hmm... perhaps I'm wrong that Kazikame and Iso are scum together...

May I ask what you were thinking here?

... I was going to decline, but for the sake of the newbies I'll spell this one out. Basically, Iso as scum is breadcrumbing a fake claim that he's brewing. His scum buddy Kaze pressures him to give more detail. Very unlikely scenario. That alone points to at least one of you being town.

Btw, where is this "Kamikaze/Kazikame" nickname coming from? You can call me Kaze if my name's too long. If it's just an individual nickname quirkiness thing then I guess I'll roll with it.

This is what I see when glancing at your username. Kazikame sounds right enough that I second-guessed myself and had to google the
correct spelling of kamikaze.

I suppose I should explain for everyone else that Iso as scum has never claimed vanilla. If he claims vanilla, he's town. As scum, he needs to set himself up to claim a power role. That's what I think he's doing here since there is no town motivation for coming out otherwise.

So Iso is scum for claiming to not be vanilla...?

Iso is scum for breadcrumbing when town has no business doing so.


Anyway, I'm feeling better about you all the time. Thanks for the responses.

I saved this post because of the
interaction with Kaze. Another line about why "Iso is scum". I happen to disagree with the line. I've been doc in my last couple games and I both had to breadcrumb in order to help the town, and used breadcrumbing to prevent night kills. After Manders' intervention, he drops it off just like that here.

@Stardust - how many games have you played with Iso?

2 full games plus one that got abandoned end of a long Day 1.

In my opinion, the Iso wagon is weak at this point. It needs more before I'll be back on it.

I believe DroppinSuga has a role that enacts when he is targeted at night, so he is eager to bring the night and get targeted.

Stop with the role speculation.

Why do you think he's more likely to be town than scum?

Oh shit. You do think he's scum, don't you? Nevermind. Carry on.

"You guys are sufficiently separated at this point as far as I'm concerned."

Manders and myself or Kaze and myself?

Kaze.

But I'll defer to your judgment.

Why would
you do that?



So... I'd be okay with a Suga lynch. DroppinSuga! Give me some content! I directed questions to you specifically in my first post of the game. I'd appreciate an answer.

Says his Iso wagon is weak, but leaves it open for a revisit. Then he says he's OK with lynching Suga. For someone who writes all those big posts and asks so many questions, it stroke me as odd that he didn't say WHY he'd be okay with that, but instead... he asked yet another question!

I don't think anything about G_R and imopen, but the DroppingSuga request for a nolynch at the end of day one doesn't sit well with me. Not that it
automatically means he is scum, but usually you always lynch someone otherwise it sets you back as town so...

On a more positive note this day one is picking up, glad we're done quickly with the RVS

Vote Col. Khaddafi.

Furthermore, here's an unexplained vote based on a reply by the Colonel. At the time I shrugged it off because I had Stardust labeled as town, and as I pointed out, I'm always weary of making a decision about Scumbag's alignment.

I've never met anyway who assumed mafia had day chat. Mafia act at night. This is the normal assumption. Manders is right, the fact that you assumed the opposite is suspicious.

Directed at imopen2, just "poking suspicion" . For the time being, there was no further questioning of this supsicious character, but pokes at other players for content, and...

Lord McD's! Are you reading the thread? What's happening right now?

Fate! I actually really do want to get more content from you. Sounds like you're a good player. Maybe you can prove it? Still some unanswered questions from way back that I'd appreciate answers to as well.


I would most like to lynch imopen2 or Col. Khaddafi at the moment. ( G_R ) I'm currently seeing as a coin flip. If you want my support on that wagon, you're going to have to help me out.

Still nothing about why Khaddafi is a good lynch candidate, nor imopen for that matter. Also asking others for reasons to vote me, instead of
either trying to clear me out or push harder for me. This strikes me as trying to seek others to push the wagon, so he can hop on later. As noted by Suga himself, there's not even mention about that wagon either.

Note to self: Look into GR, Kaze, imopen scumteam.

Note to everyone else: I rarely post over the weekend. Don't expect a reply from me until the following Monday.

What about Khaddafi? Why is the vote still there? Why was it there in the first place? And the "note to self" is obviously hinting others to look into those players.

You're so cute when you tunnel me, Stardust. <3

Cute?! Cute is the cheerleaders sittin' on the sidelines. I ain't cute.

But who's tunneling? I thought you were scum, then I didn't, then you started acting scummy again. Handwave noted, however.

@Stardust: How does Iso's play so far stack up against the other games you've played with him?

It's been a while, but it seems like Iso to me. I've never played or followed an Iso scum game and I'm not interested in using meta to clear someone as town anyway. Iso least of all.

You asked about drawing attention later on. That's Iso, all the time.

On my comment about being wary of Nuwen commandeering operations, I'd point out people to the Agata Christie's novel 10 Little Niggers. Judge Wargrave came to mind.

Explain what you mean by this.

This reads so fake.

You've been happy enough to respond to Spammy's questions with "read my posts" up until now (justifiably), but only now do you kick a bit of dirt back his way. I don't like that this immediately follows Manders' comment that Spammy might be trying to get shit to stick. Opportunism noted.



In other news, I would like to leave GR until tomorrow. Kaze should be the lynch today.

Unvote, Vote
Kazekirimaru.

Here he says that he's not interested in using meta to clear people as town, yet he's been asking about and using people's metas. Townies want to clear people as town, because they don't want to mislynch anyone.

We should end the Day, or at least get things moving in that direction. Everyone either get on the Kaze wagon or say why you'd rather not.

Introducing false dichotomy, as noted by LMcd's[/spoiler]

In conclusion, Stardust is asking a lot of questions. But it is my perception (and to some degree he has confirmed it himself) that he is asking these questions not to clear people as town, but to find things that make people scummy. Guess what? You want to find scum, but you also want to avoid mislynching, especially a power role, and what he did
with Iso early-game is the opposite.

My proposed course of action is lynching Stardust today, and check Kaze's alignment via the pertinent PR, while our protective role could keep Suga safe. I'm more certain about Stardust than Kaze, but after they both hopped on my wagon immediately, I am more convinced that they are scumbuddies, and that they were busing each other. If you read their posts with the mentality that imopen2 is sloppy town, you can see a team effort to set him up for a lynch, and the other player taking part on that is Yannus. I can see the team being them three, but Yannus needs further analysis, as well as other players who could just be hiding behind the scenes for the time being.[/quote]
The part that I find most telling is the meta stuff. Something had been bothering me about Stardust's play, and GR just hit the nail on the head. He's saying one thing, but doing another. It doesn't mesh.

Unvote Vote: Stardust[/b:
1gbl03v5]

Why is the word BUSSING making such a big appearance without even one scum flip? None of you have proved to me that you're keen enough to catch one scum, let alone two at once. Sit down.

Your condescending attitude isn't welcome here. No one is better than anyone else, and it would be really nice if you could start acting like it.

I was hoping the vote count wouldn't show it and I didn't want to make it obvious that I had two votes since that makes me quite a target for the scummers now.

It was beneficial to me since the wagons were forming.

I'm not sure what to think about this attitude. It's the kind of thing I'd think I'd see from noob Town (relying on their role to save them from lynch)...but Suga said he's not a noob. Ugh.

Why do you assume he's
confirmed town? He's confirmed doublevoter, yes, and it's likely he is indeed a town role; but doublevoter is not inherently a town role, and he is not confirmed town.

It's never a bad idea to ask questions.

Agreed.

[Yannaria]

manders: kaze has been on my suspect list sense my first post for posts I pointed out in said post. I think it's 186

[Tom Servo]

Most of this is tl:dr, so I would like to take the chance to say "where mah bitches at!?"

That is all

[Iso]

2 days and nothing worth responding to except to shoot Nuwen a dirty look. Hm.

[ganderin_dan]

Yanni is V/LA for an indeterminate amount of time.

[Yannaria]

Yanni is V/LA for an indeterminate amount of time.

thanks for posting this dan

[Link]

what the hell happened in this thread.

If Suga is a double voter then everything I've thought until now has been confirmed ty

[Mcdonalds]

Given your comments on Suga, what do you think of Fate?

He hasn't posted anything that makes me think he's town.

Need to read his posts again, but I'm inclined to say I'm fine with a stardust lynch today.

[Manders]

@ Tom: It's time to start contributing to the game. Let's start with whether you are for or against a name claim.

what the hell happened in this thread.

If Suga is a double voter then everything I've thought until now has been confirmed ty

People are being lazy/busy, and the only thing that is confirmed is that Suga is a double voter.
So why did you say, "If"?

Given your comments on Suga, what
do you think of Fate?

He hasn't posted anything that makes me think he's town.

Need to read his posts again, but I'm inclined to say I'm fine with a stardust lynch today.

Why didn't you include Fate (as well as everyone else you didn't include) in your post?

[Mcdonalds]

@manders I tend to focus on one or two people at a time, so I genuinely did not have anything to say about them

[Stardust]

Manders, if you're still counting, I am officially against a name claim.

I am still counting, and I already have you down as "For". Why have you changed your mind?

I was never for. I was only not opposed. I considered clarifying that early on, but the fact is that I just don't care about the name claim. Any discussion on the matter is a waste of time so I didn't bring it up. The fact that it's still coming up repeatedly has me feeling that we should either just shut up about it or get it over with. I don't care which. I said I was opposed to see what Kaze had to say about that.

The part that I find most telling is the meta stuff. Something had been bothering me about Stardust's play, and GR just hit the nail on the head. He's saying one thing, but doing another. It doesn't mesh.

I have no idea what you guys are talking about. What am I saying and what am I doing?

[Yannaria]

@manders I tend to focus on one or two people at a time, so I genuinely did not have anything to say about them

is it just me or is this admitting to future tunneling

[Mcdonalds]

@manders I tend to focus on one or two people at a time, so I genuinely did not have anything to say about them

is it just me or is this admitting to future tunneling

It certainly reads like that

To be more exact, I usually only read/analyze 1-2 people''s posts at a time (of course reading the accompanying conversation for context) when trying to determine whether I think they are scum or town

Tend to get lost trying to keep up with things as they happen