Dies to Removal

the card draw generated is good but chandra does the same thing and is more synergetic with the deck. i think running a couple in the side board against control would be great just remember he flips 2 cards when he hits twice so if you flip 2 spells without the mana to cast them then you've wasted potential damage against your opponent.

In order:

1) I already have 2 Chandra in the sideboard. Are you actually proposing I run 3-4? In what match would you use that many?

2) Jace and heavy removal makes him awful vs control. I tried a few games just to confirm it
and I can assure you that it is excruciatingly bad.

3) Yes, I agree that tapping out main phase 1 is generally a poor strategy in burn on or after turn 4, excluding playing phoenix.

I, too find chandra really hard to play vs. control. 4 mana for "deal 1 damage and target opponent discards one removal spell" is pretty blah. Maybe I should save her until 6-7 mana so I have a chance of getting something off the +0,

I don't see Titan's Strength being THAT MUCH WORSE than shock (except on turn 1...although given pheonix/yp turn 1 shock is situational anyway). Shock was the card were are always cutting anyway... and it just seems insane with flamespeaker. They can't block and they can't not block

Control doesn't always have the dsphere for Chandra and if they don't, they just lose.

I'm just having a hard time justifying titan's strength in a potentially 14 creature deck. Call me crazy.

Just signed up for the daily. I haven't updated my MTGO list at all so it's an old build but we'll see how I end up.

Round 1 vs All-In Red (RRozanski)
Won game 1 with tight play and Chandra's Phoenix, making sure to remove the right creatures at the right time and burn the face when I could afford to. YP did work - he killed it EOT but I Boros Charmed him in response to represent lethal on board and he didn't have the answer.
Lost game 2 to not drawing any burn with Chandra and him at 2. Possibly unnecessarily played around Searing Blood when it would have killed me, could have killed him with a Mutavault if he had no removal and then he played two Skullcracks.
Won game 3 with double Peak Eruption leaving him on one land even though I shocked myself twice with lands to get to 3 mana by turn 3 and Searing Blood on turn 2. Firedrinker Satyr is extremely bad against us, not sure why he kept it in.
Boarding:
Game 2: +2 Mizzium Mortars +1 Chained to the Rocks +1 Warleader's Helix +1 Blind Obedience +1 Spark Trooper -2 Boros Charm -4
Skullcrack
Game 3: (from maindeck) +1 Mizzium Mortars +1 Chained to the Rocks +1 Blind Obedience +3 Peak Eruption +1 Spark Trooper +1 Warleader's Helix -4 Skullcrack -4 Boros Charm

Deck:
[deck]
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Young Pyromancer

3 Chained to the Rocks

1 Chandra, Pyromaster

3 Shock
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Skullcrack
3 Searing Blood
4 Boros Charm
3 Warleader's Helix

2 Boros Guildgate
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
9 Mountain

Sideboard
2 Assemble the Legion
1 Blind Obedience
1 Chained to the Rocks
1 Glare of Heresy
2 Mizzium Mortars
3 Peak Eruption
1 Spark Trooper
3 Viashino Firstblade
1 Warleader's Helix
[/deck]

Round 2 vs MonoB Devotion (OniiChan)
Game 1 turn 1 Mutavault is met by turn 1 Swamp + Thoughtseize taking my Lightning Strike. Starting keep was Mutavault, Mountain, Temple, Foundry, Magma Jet, YP$, Lightning Strike. I think this was his first mistake. First draw was YP$. Second turn he Thoughtseizes again and takes a Pyromancer. I draw a Mountain, play Temple, swing again (20-12). he plays NVS. I draw Helix, play Mountain, pass and Helix the NVS during combat. I eventually win by topdecking Shock when he has lethal on board. Chandra was involved too.
Boarding: -3 Shock -2 Searing Blood +2 Assemble +1 Blind Obedience +1 Chained +1 Helix
First hand mulligan: 2x CP, Jet, Strike, Charm, Charm, Chained lol.
Second hand keep: Temple, Charm, Crack, Phoenix, Vault. Draw Foundry, play Vault and pass. He plays turn 3 Pack Rat and I have no answers so I play the Blind Obedience I drew and hope to get lucky, but couldn't answer
his consecutive turn 4 and 5 Desecration Demons into turn 6 Gray Merchant.
I boarded out the Blob I had accidentally boarded in, and brought back a Shock for game 3.
Game 3 my hand had 18 points of burn by turn 2. Starting hand Foundry, Mountain, Temple, Charm, Crack, 2 Helix, first draw Crack#2. My second draw was Assemble, but no real way to deal with his turn2 Pack Rat. I scryed into Mutavault, which I kept on top. He made a Pack Rat and hit me for 2 ditching Bile Blight. I EOT Skullcracked (Boros Charmed him turn2) life totals 18-13. He Thoughtseizes me turn 4 and takes a Helix, so if I hit Boros Charm I win, but if he takes Assemble he's dead within two more turns.. Assemble can't race his Rats unless I burn a Rat and topdeck a land, which I don't want to do, and I still get blown out by Bile Blight.. He makes another Rat (discarding NVS) and hits me for 6, I Helix EOT (life totals 16-7, he can have 16 power in play next turn but one can't attack so I should have two turns to draw two burn spells,
one Boros Charm) My draw is Sacred Foundry. If I go Foundry into Assemble, I'm dead on board in two turns no matter what I draw, so I just passed with three cards in hand (Foundry, Assemble, Skullcrack). Assemble is way too slow against turn2 Pack Rat with no removal draw. He made another Rat and Pharika's Cure in response to my EOT Skullcrack...what the fuck? people play that card? and of course I drew another land. 1-2 in a very good matchup, figures I can't deal with Pack Rat two games in a row.

Round 3 vs All-In Red (HugoVenda)
Game 1 he got luckier than me and had two instant-speed removal spells to my one when he runs only 4.
Game 2 I mulliganed a one-lander into Mutavault, mountain, Shock, Chained, Blood, Phoenix which I kept, figuring it's better than a random five-carder. I won with Phoenix when he flooded.
Game 3 he double Peak Eruptioned me and I never hit 4 mana for my two Helixes before I died after taking five turns and still having a land in hand.

At 1-2 I dropped.

nyx fleece ram sucks. Especially with Jace.

Titan's Strength is terrible in a burn deck. It is exactly the opposite of what we're trying to do.

Yeah, we like our opponent's removal to be bad, not really good. If they 2-for-1 us, it's miserable, and if they keep killing our critters and we get stuck with Strengths in hand, we're in trouble.

Took the deck to FNM last week to a 4-1 4th in standings finish. Beat Bantchant, MBD, lost to MBD, beat Br devotion, MBD. Dat meta.

Titan's Strength is bad in the same way Chained to the Rocks is bad (because it's sometimes dead or can lead to a 2-for-1). Or young pyromancer with no shock/jet back up is bad. It's actually slightly less hassle to lava spike them off of a token or pheonix than it is to get a YP out with a backup. If you tap out I can safely add TS to any creature. But if I tap out for YP you can untap and kill it without a response.

Possibly more interesting is that Prophetic Flamespeaker is the removal magnet (and that was the only reason I was considering TS anyway).

I still assert Flamespeaker will either survive or fail entirely on its own in this shell. If it needs extra support to be good, don't run it.

I'm not the least concerned about the new ram.

I on the other hand am concerned with the Ram. I've been doing a lot of paper testing and the Ram hurts my matchup against control quite badly post board. I might have to value Wear//Tear higher now.

One Ram is just a little annoying.. I mean a 0/5 is only going to block YP or a token. but we have to either 2 for 1 it, chain it, or banish it. And it's only CMC2 so only chains tempo-favorable. Ignoring it means you have to go from ~7 burn spells to 10. So that's about 2 more turns assuming we don't run out of gas.

Two Rams or a Ram and a Jace is very bad. Like worse than 2 desecration demons bad. It's not quite like Obezdat or Whip where we don't even have an out, but it's very hard to win unless they are already down below 10 life.

I do think flamespeaker is pretty good tech against Rams but it's a 5 so you need lightning strike (or some other card I won't mention) AZ would work, but they probably won't block it. Ram can also be suited up. Ram+Godsend is pretty much GG, unless you can already do 5/turn.

Wear//Tear is instant speed and less narrow against control, and still costs 1. I was also testing an Ash Zealot version and the Ram completely embarrasses it.

A strong argument can be made for Wear / Tear now. There are a LOT of enchantments that will be played and in a lot of cases it will be a one mana Terminate. I expect a lot of people to force Naya Hexproof and that's even further justification to find room for it.

Titan's Strength is bad in the same way Chained to the Rocks is bad (because it's sometimes dead or can lead to a 2-for-1). Or young pyromancer with no shock/jet back up is bad. It's actually slightly less hassle to lava spike them off of a token or pheonix than it is to get a YP out with a backup. If you tap out I can safely add TS to any creature. But if I tap out for YP you can untap and kill it without a response.

Possibly more interesting is that Prophetic Flamespeaker is the removal magnet (and that was the only reason I was considering TS anyway).

Stop.

I think that if Wear // Tear becomes more prevalent in SBs (as seems to be the case), then Banishing Light ceases to become a consideration in the 75. I was considering swapping out my 1x CtR and 1x W/T for 2x Banishing Light; trading tempo for versatility. But if we play more enchantment removal, then Banishing Light becomes considerably less useful, at least out of the board. And I don't think Banishing Light will make my maindeck.

I played with the list posted above at two FNMs tonight.

Went 3-1 in the first ( esper control 1-2 (Flooded badly), RW Devo 2-0 (strange build), MBA 2-0 (nearly a bye), junk reanimator 2-1 (skullcracks <3)).

went 3-2 in the second ( GR Monsters 1-2 (still a rough matchup, didn't draw exile effects), GW hexproof 2-1 (inexperienced player with and awkward build), Junk lifegain (drew skullcracks twice at the right time) 2-1, Br devo 2-0 (anger was awkward, but Assemble the Legion for the scoop), Bant super friends 1-2 (all four coursers T3-6 and never missed a land drop, are you a wizard?).

I think Banishing Light was really good, and I really like Elricity's split. I think it's worth further testing.

went 4-1 split top 4 tonight (beat rb midrange dictate of gods brew, lost to esper (close, misplay on my part but a good learning experience), jund monsters, sphere of safety deck, and dredge (in g3 he had to leave so I got the win). 4 shock 2 searing blood, 2 chains, 1 banishing light (i listed these because I feel this is where the current discussion is.) Ran 1 mana confluence over the guildgate, it was fine. ALOT of GW running around Atlanta, and hexproof as well.

Got an IQ tomorrow, contemplating -1 Searing Blood +1 banishing light. If I do that I might cut the mana confluence for the guildgate. Ran two wear and 2 mortars, might go up on one of them.

SB was:
2 wear
2 chain
1 banihsing light
2 mortar
1 muta
2 chandra
2 assemble
3 toil.

I want a 4th toil(maybe 1 dragon), but cant find the room... If i put the banihsing light main, maybe that will turn into dragon.

I played with the list posted above at two FNMs tonight.

Went 3-1 in the first ( esper control 1-2 (Flooded badly), RW Devo 2-0 (strange build), MBA 2-0 (nearly a bye), junk reanimator 2-1 (skullcracks <3)).

went 3-2 in the second ( GR Monsters 1-2 (still a rough matchup, didn't draw exile effects), GW hexproof 2-1 (inexperienced player with and awkward build), Junk lifegain (drew skullcracks twice at the right time) 2-1, Br devo 2-0 (anger was awkward, but Assemble the Legion for the scoop), Bant super friends 1-2 (all four coursers T3-6 and never missed a land drop, are you a wizard?).

I think Banishing Light was really good, and I really like Elricity's split. I think it's worth further testing.

Yeah I'm fairly certain
more than 2 banishing light is too many. I can finally get behind the last 2 cards being wear and tear.

is deicide not an option?

I may be able to go to a win a box tonight. Considering RW burn. Meta is typically control light and midrange heavy, so burn could be a mistake and it's possible I should just play GR Monsters, but here's what I'm considering.

[deck]
Creatures (8)
4 young pyromancer
4 chandra's phoenix

Spells (29)
4 chained to the rocks
3 shock
3 searing blood
4 magma jet
4 lightning strike
4 boros charm
4 skullcrack
3 warleader's helix

Lands (23)
3 mutavault
4 temple of triumph
1 temple of silence
1 temple of malice
4 sacred foundry
10 mountain

Sideboard (15)
1 shock
1 searing blood
3 wear / tear
1 glare of heresy
1 banishing light
3 peak eruption
2 chandra, pyromaster
1 warleader's helix
2 assemble the legion
[/deck]

is deicide not an option?

I don't think Deicide is worth running unless the meta becomes very god-heavy. Wear//Tear costs less and is more flexible.

Are people leaving 4 Chained to the Rocks between their main and SB while still playing Banishing Light? The way I've been treating BL is as a more expensive Chained with more flexibility. I can bring it in when I need another Chained or when I'm against control. I've been maintaining the numbers to be 4 total O-Ring effects, as I don't want to fill my deck with too many non-burn cards.

Another thought is this: if every deck starts to run O-Rings, decklists might adapt to run more enchantment removal, invalidating CtR and Banishing Light. In that case, does Spite of Mogis become good?

I like Banishing Light as a catch-all one-of.

I do not like Spite of Mogis.

Your points on people playing more enchantment removal is definitely correct, but in the case of this deck the enchantments we play are more for tempo so as long as they buy us a couple extra turns we're fine.

I went to a win a box tournament last nigh at the LGS. About 8 to 9 people showed up. From the previous win a box tournament, the meta was pretty red aggro focused so I adjust my sideboard to have a bit more hate for it. Well, wrong there (again). I can't predict a meta to save my life.

[deck=Zman's Rw Burn with a Different Sideboard]
Creatures (8)
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Spells (29)
3 Chained to the Rocks
4 Shock
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
2 Searing Blood
4 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix

Land (23)
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
1 Temple of Malice
1 Temple of Silence
3 Mutavault
10 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
2 Assemble the Legion
2 Banishing Light
2 Blind Obedience
1 Chained to the Rocks
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
3 Mizzium Mortars
1 Mutavault
2 Searing Blood
[/deck]

I got 5-0 for the tournament with my match ups against RB Minotaurs, BGW Control, BR
Control, WU Weenies, and BU Control.

Round 1 vs [mana]RB[/mana] Minotaurs Round 2 vs [mana]BGW [/
mana]Control Round 3 vs [mana]Br[/mana] Control Round 4 vs [mana]WU[/mana] Weenies Round 5 vs [mana]BU[/mana] Control ---
Not a lot of people had the new cards so it was a tournament that was primarily BNG standard with a couple new cards. I really like running 4/2 chains/banishing light. Banishing Light is a great catch all and it really helps in the match ups where I can't burn some problematic card. It also helps ensure that I have my answer for the Demon on turn 4.

I played with the list posted above at two FNMs tonight.

Went 3-1 in the first ( esper control 1-2 (Flooded badly), RW Devo 2-0 (strange build), MBA 2-0 (nearly a bye), junk reanimator 2-1 (skullcracks <3)).

went 3-2 in the second ( GR Monsters 1-2 (still a rough matchup, didn't draw exile effects), GW hexproof 2-1 (inexperienced player with and awkward build), Junk lifegain (drew skullcracks twice at the right time) 2-1, Br devo 2-0 (anger was awkward, but Assemble the Legion for the scoop), Bant super friends 1-2 (all four coursers T3-6 and never missed a land drop, are you a wizard?).

nI think Banishing Light was really good, and I really like Elricity's split. I think it's worth further testing.

Yeah I'm fairly certain more than 2 banishing light is too many. I can finally get behind the last 2 cards being wear and tear.

Last two cards?

I think Banishing Light was really good, and I really like Elricity's split. I think it's worth further testing.

Yeah I'm fairly certain more than 2 banishing light is too many. I can finally get behind the last 2 cards being wear and tear.

Last two cards?

I'm certain on the sideboard being:
2 Chandra
2 Assemble
2 chain (total 4)
1 banish (total 2)
4 toil
1 mutavault (
total 4)
1 blind obedience
2 flex cards

Same starting place as me except I'm not 100% on the BO yet and I might even drop the Mutavault!

Same starting place as me except I'm not 100% on the BO yet and I might even drop the Mutavault!

Have you seen how EMBARASSING eidolon of countless garbage was on camera in this round on SCG?

I don't think you keep it in for that matchup. I think eidolon has a place mostly against other aggro or control.

I don't think it's good in standard; and even if it was, it wouldn't be good in our deck with 33 3>-mana spells.

Not a playable card in Standard.

I played a Launch Weekend tournament at LGS, 5 rounds of swiss with cut to top 8.

I ran this list:

[deck]
BURN
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Searing Blood
2 Shock
4 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix

REMOVAL
3 Chained to the Rocks

CREATURES
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix

LANDS
8 Mountain
3 Mutavault
1 Mana Confluence
1 Temple of Malice
2 Temple of Silence
4 Temple of Triumph

SIDEBOARD
2 Assemble the Legion
2 Banishing Light
1 Chained to the Rocks
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
4 Mizzium Mortars
1 Mutavault
3 Viashino Firstblade
[/deck]

Basically the same list as I ran before JOU, but with Banishing Light in place of [card]Wear // Tear[/card] and a Mana Confluence in place of a Scry land. Thought process here was move the curve slightly towards an untapped source of R or
W. I want to try running 2 and go back to 6 total Scry Land but only had 1 on hand. Not sure about the viability of this.

This particular tournament had several weak players with weak decks.

Round 1 I played an unknown U/B build. I only saw about 4 cards in the deck (a Triton hero that draws cards and a black defender that turns on for blue mana). This player was inexperienced and the deck was overmatched. I won easily in 2 quick games.

Round 2 I played a more experienced player with a nearly Monoblack list. He splashed red for Dreadbore over Thoughtseize and Slaughter Games sideboard. I felt like this list was just a mistake - that deck doesn't need that much removal. Opponent also sided out Gray Merchant of Asphodel against me which is puzzling, but didn't bring in Slaughter Games. Still, I ended up losing the match in part due to a turn where I forgot to attack with 2 [
card]Mutavault[/card] into a clear board with him tapped out. I guess it is good I represented Skullcrack mana but really I just forgot to look at his mana before saying pass. Despite that mistake, I got him down to 1 life and had 4 turns to topdeck any burn. Instead all I got was land.

Round 3 I played an inexperienced player with a Monoblack build running only 2 Desecration Demon because that is all the player had. Some other weaker cards were played and I ran over this match easily as well in 2 quick games.

Round 4 I played an old school player who was just getting back into the game. He had an unknown W/B/R list but his mana was never working. I played 2 games on the draw and won both quickly. We then played two more for fun and I won both of those too. He had Underworld Coinsmith Hopeful Eidolon Teysa, Envoy of Ghosts and [card:
1mrn5n5b]Alms Beast[/card] along with some extort. I say he played red because in one game he played Temple of Triumph but I never saw a red card. Anyways, who knows what this deck was.

Round 5 was intentional draw into top 8 giving me a break.

Top 8 I was 7 seed vs a very experienced player with W/B Midrange deck. I died quickly. Game 1 I lost to Thoughtseize revealing my 2 Chained to the Rocks hand which meant Desecration Demon and Obzedat, Ghost Council was easily played. Game 2 I mull'd to 6 and ended up with an OK hand but again could not beat Obzedat. The key play was also Devour Flesh on his Demon vs my Chained, as the 6 lifegain was too much to recover from.

Observations:
I really liked Banishing Light. I only played it a handful of times (once to kill [card]Illness in the Ranks[/card:
1mrn5n5b]) but I can see the utility. Nice to know I have an answer for stuff like Whip of Erebos, any random enchantment and can still use it for problematic creatures. I feel like the 2 Chained 1 Banishing maindeck and 2/1 in side is going to be a good combination worth looking at.

Mana Confluence never really screwed me in games where I played it but it didn't exactly help either. Given that the card is serving a fringe role of fixing mana I don't expect it to be a worldbeater. Still, I don't want to go < 8 mountains and I'm not sure if I like 2 Mana Confluence over 2 scry lands. And I don't know if I should cut Temple of Silence or Temple of Malice. Possibly the white scry land, since Mana Confluence is more useful.

Obzedat wrecked me in both games. I have no answer for it currently. Aside from an emergency block + Boros Charm + another
burn spell salvation. Maybe Reprisal is worth a look as it also kills demons, Polukranos, World Eater and others but it still feels troublesome.

I don't think it's good in standard; and even if it was, it wouldn't be good in our deck with 33 3>-mana spells.

Which card did you think was not good in Standard? I wasn't sure which you were referencing given the discussion above about Eidolon of Countless Battles and Prophetic Flamespeaker

I don't think it's good in standard; and even if it was, it wouldn't be good in our deck with 33 3>-mana spells.

Which card did you think was not good in Standard? I wasn't sure which you were referencing given the discussion above about Eidolon of Countless Battles and Prophetic Flamespeaker

Pretty sure he was just referring to Eidolon of the Great Revel

I think Eidolon is more powerful the faster the format is (I.e., best in legacy or modern). Prophetic Flamespeaker's a different discussion, but I don't like him terribly much ATM.