Dies to Removal

So I'm god-awful at the control matchup. I have never won a single match against a UWx control deck. How do people play against control? What things specifically do you watch out for (besides leaving up skullcrack mana)?

You running mutavaults? Constant pressure and end step burn. And yes keep that Skullcrack ready. I very rarely lose to control and haven't in a long time. My hardest mu is mono green devotion with nylea.

I admit to not rolling over control like some people on this thread. It really comes down to skilled play and dodging counters. Being patient seems to be the key. There is some point, maybe around 7 life, where they get desperate and you should always win (assuming you crack the rev) by just running them out of mana or counters or both. You have 3x as many burn spells as they do counters, and no one (yet) is playing silence or render silent, so sometimes you might want to keep drawing cards until you have lethal a couple times over.

In general:
Try not to get your phoenix syncopated.
Try not to get your mutavaults last breathed
I think you not only want to save skullcrack, you have to constantly rep it once you hit 4 mana (unless they are level 0 players)
Ignore Jace (or Kiora or whomever) unless they are about to ultimate or you can shock it or something.
nNever (especially against B) play a YP without a spell backup (note that this might violate leaving skullcrack mana up)

In my (limited) experience I lose if I do not get to play chandra's pheonix and/or I never draw skullcrack. Generally if they get to like 9 mana with >10 life you are probably screwed. (they can elspeth or aetherling with impunity).

The worst feeling is when you have 4 mana, YP and Skullcrack only.

Post board - firedrinker turn 1 is very good. Leave it a chain or glare (maybe 2 total) in case they sneak in Archangel or FSP. Mortars if you see a BBoV. Viashino is great if they don't have blind obedience... but if they do it's almost dead. So cheat or something.

So I'm god-awful at the control matchup. I have never won a single match against a UWx control deck. How do people play against control? What things specifically do you watch out for (besides leaving up skullcrack mana)?

I usually just wait for them to tap out and then unload on them. I don't mind committing creatures to the board to bait a Verdict either. Additionally, I try not to attack my Mutavaults into their removal as I want to get maximum value from them. Generally, if you keep pecking away at their life total with a single burn spell and/or creature, they'll eventually get desperate to do something and tap out. That's when you take advantage of the situation. I have yet to have something like a Lightning Strike countered.

. My hardest mu is mono green devotion with nylea.

YP is quite bad against trample... as I found out against minotaurs. That's a surprisingly 50-50 matchup (although with Firedancers/BO/Peak Eruption it's heavily in burn's favor)

I guess you know the obvious - burn @ eot, play around counters, get in early beats, don't overextend (less likely with Burn than Aggro). I'd recommend watching these, or rewatching if you've already seen them

MDU's Young Dancer's Vs Esper Control

MDU's Ash Phoenix Vs Esper Control

MDU's Blind Zurm Vs Esper Control

MDU's Blind Zurm Vs UW Control

Plus toil/trouble is a back breaker. Last Friday back to back for 12 total and that was after a Boros charm. I went 3-1 losing in the last rd and getting 2nd place. Mono grn with his nut draw and my weak ones.

MDU's Young Dancer's Vs Esper Control

Wasn't game 1 here played kinda bad by MDU? Maybe you cannot avoid getting YP devoured but walks Charm into dissolve, and misses and EoT LS when opp is tapped (and holding 2 dissolves it turns out). Then top decks FTW.

Evil Ryan, is that you?

Yup.

YP is quite bad against trample... as I found out against minotaurs. That's a surprisingly 50-50 matchup (although with Firedancers/BO/Peak Eruption it's heavily in burn's favor)

At least if that deck ever gets popular it gets obliterated by Anger of the Gods.

Thanks LaZer for the list, helpful as always

Following situation vs Esper Control after SB: I have both YP and T/T in my opening hand. I'm on the play, both players play a CIPT land t1. What's the correct plan?

a) play T2 YP, allowing them to remove it but then being able to play T/T without risking it being countered?
b) hold back YP and play T/T on t3 even if they have 2 mana open?
C) hold back both spells, hoping for a later point in time to be able to play T/T?

As a variant, would it make a difference if you have Phoenix in that situation? A 2 mana burnspell?

The other cards in your hand are very important for the sequencing. If you have a shock, wait until turn 3 for the YP. Turn 2, they'll just devour flesh and then you still have to work around Syncopate. If YP has no support spells, then just play the shitty bear and make them do something to it.

Also, the correct play was to drop mutavault turn 1 if you could =p. Turn 2 shock with buyback [mana]1[/mana] always starts the game off right.

Also, if you have videos, those help a lot. Control isn't easy but you shouldn't be losing that often.

I wait & play T/T on turn 3. Esper has so many CiPT lands that they usually try to get them out of their hand ASAP. They're also less likely to shock themselves to drop an untapped land on T2 if they can avoid it. Maybe they're holding Syncopate in anticipation of your Phoenix and maybe not. I'd rather have T/T Syncopated than the Phoenix anyway.

The other cards in your hand are very important for the sequencing. If you have a shock, wait until turn 3 for the YP. Turn 2, they'll just devour flesh and then you still have to work around Syncopate. If YP has no support spells, then just play the shitty bear and make them do something to it.

Also, the correct play was to drop mutavault turn 1 if you could =p. Turn 2 shock with buyback [mana]1[/mana] always starts the game off right.

Also, if you have videos, those help a lot. Control isn't easy but you shouldn't be losing that often.

We are on the play, so if they devour flesh they can't counter our t3 T/T

I'm not actually all that concerned about protecting t/t unless the rest of your cards burns them out. If control wants to 1 for 1 my burn spells with counters, then they can have at. Though obviously I'd rather run out spells like lightning strike into counters first.

Honestly, this is a bit hypothetical because the other cards in hand matter a ton. Give us a starting 8.

OK, fine. Say your opening 7 is Boros Guildgate, Mountain, Mountain, Foundry, YP, T/T, WLH

Say the 8th card drawn on T2 is either have Shock, Lightning Strike, Chandra's Phoenix or another WLH - you can let me know what would affect your decision and what wouldn't, OK?

Thanks for helping me to learn!

Thanks, that helps. I was trying to come up with a sample hand myself.

If I draw the shock or strike, I'm stalling YP since I don't have enough burn to nova and I need something repeatable. They can't Syncopate it and I get a token regardless. Trouble can wait. If I draw helix, I'm flipping YP out there because it's just a crappy bear and now I have a lot of burn in hand. If I draw phoenix, YP is covering for him and/or trouble depending.

In other words, be patient if you don't "have it". Go aggro if you have a repeatable damage source.

I played a few SE events today and picked up 3 more QPs. I went with the Ash Zealot version of the list, which seemed to go better for me than usual. Here are the results across the 3 events.

RW Burn - Win in 2
GR Monsters - Loss in 2
Ux Devo - Loss in 3
Bx Aggro - Win in 2
Bx Devo - Win in 3
Ux Devo - Win in 3

I'm still a fan of boarding in Anger of the Gods on the draw in the right match-ups.

speaking of control... I just lost a G1 to UW when I attacked with pyromancer into celestial flare. Two turns later, Jace ultimates.

speaking of control... I just lost a G1 to UW when I attacked with pyromancer into celestial flare. Two turns later, Jace ultimates.

I'd have to say, I've never seen that, nor would have expected it. (I've seen in in WW decks, though)

P.S. and OT: After seeing this video, I might have to change my name from Montu to Banshee.

Banshee POV

speaking of control... I just lost a G1 to UW when I attacked with pyromancer into celestial flare. Two turns later, Jace ultimates.

I'll would imagine letting Jace reach ultimate in a burn deck means you deserved too lose..... that said I tend to do really stupid things against control (in all formats) thus I need work on it as well (out of the T1 decks I rate it a close 2nd as my hardest MU).

In order it would be:
1# Ux Devotion - (its really depended on how good your opening draw is vs your opp. opening draws - having removals is key)
2# Control - (I'm just bad at this MU.....)

I'm ok vs everything else.

So, playing the same list I posted on Friday, I managed another 4-0 today.
Deck:
[deck]
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Young Pyromancer

3 Chained to the Rocks

1 Chandra, Pyromaster

3 Shock
3 Searing Blood
3 Warleader's Helix
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
4 Skullcrack
4 Boros Charm

3 Mutavault
2 Boros Guildgate
1 Temple of Silence
1 Temple of Malice
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Sacred Foundry
8 Mountain

Sideboard
2 Assemble the Legion
1 Chained to the Rocks
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Glare of Heresy
3 Mizzium Mortars
1 Mutavault
1 Spark Trooper
1 Warleader's Helix
1 Wear/Tear
3 Viashino Firstblade
[/deck]

Round 1 - Bye.
Round 2 - 2-1 vs RG Monsters. He boarded in 3-4 Disciple of Nylea (I saw 3 of them) and Ruric Thar hit the table, but I still only lost game 2 because I
forgot to play a land to have 7 mana the next turn for WLH + rebuy Phoenix and win (he was at 7 with a Courser of Kruphix in play), this was especially stupid. Games 1 and 3 were no contest.
Boarding: -4 Boros Charm -1 Shock +1 Spark Trooper +3 Mizzium Mortars +1 Chained to the Rocks. I missed having BlOb in my board for this and my next matchup.

Round 3 - 2-1 vs Bw Devotion. Game 2 I lost to his on-curve Obzedat when my hand was short ways to deal with it. Game 3 I was rewarded for very tight play after a keep that was somewhat weak to his turn 2 Pack Rat, turn 3 Pack Rat opener. I regretted boarding out my Shocks and Bloods for sure. Game 1 I crushed his BBoV with Shock+Searing Blood, so that was pretty cool. He also Devoured his own Nightveil in response to Lightning Strike, which seemed incorrect.
Boarding: -3 Searing Blood -3 Shock +1 Chandra +1 Mutavault +2 Assemble the Legion +2 Mizzium Mortars (he has Nightveil and Blood Baron)

Round 4 - 2-0 vs B Devotion. Game 1 was a very tightly played
game by both sides where I was at 2 and he was at 3 at one point, with Shock as my only burn spell. He had a Pack Rat on the table, and I had Chandra's Phoenix in play and another in hand with a Shock. I attacked with the one Chandra's Phoenix and it got Downfalled, but if his removal spell was Bile Blight, I would have lost by playing my second Phoenix. I played the second Phoenix and passed, he drew and passed, and after several turns of duking it out (during which I would instantly win if I ever saw my fifth land and was therefore able to play Phoenix and something else), I attacked for lethal.
Game 2 I won quickly by running out an unprotected YP$ (yes, this is always bad...except when it's not) that ate a removal spell, and then Phoenix + burn got there quickly.

I do play on MTGO, thanks for the tip on recording some matches. I may have to give that a shot.

@zenbitz: I am not sure if I remembered that turn correctly now that you bring up the point of why didn't I pop the Sire. I may have been laser focused on how sad it was Mizzium was going bye bye and missed the obvious kill, but I may also have instead had Mizzimum and 2 Jets. I do recall leaving R open after casting everything I could. Either way, I think you have a good point about needing to kill the 6/4 even if I 2-1. Once he drops I'm on a clock and if I have an answer in hand I probably have to do it now. Makes me wish I had taken a better note on this match.

Regarding the control matches: what do you do when you face an opponent that just won't tap out, ever after Turn 6 or 7? I find that I can't win that matchup. At that point my spells are countered, Jace hits and I am forced to deal with him or else ultimate
goes off, and eventually Rev is resolved because 1BB is left open. Sometimes it's hard to resolve the 7 spells you need to win the game.. you get 5 off and that's it. Feels like it happens to me a lot lately but maybe I'm just playing into their plans.

Thanks LaZer for the list, helpful as always

Following situation vs Esper Control after SB: I have both YP and T/T in my opening hand. I'm on the play, both players play a CIPT land t1. What's the correct plan?

a) play T2 YP, allowing them to remove it but then being able to play T/T without risking it being countered?
b) hold back YP and play T/T on t3 even if they have 2 mana open?
C) hold back both spells, hoping for a later point in time to be able to play T/T?

As a variant, would it make a difference if you have Phoenix in that situation? A 2 mana burnspell?

If its against Control I'll slam YP$ T2 no matter what - its not a crucial part of
the attack plan in that MU at all.

(off-topic: I'm not looking forward too Hexproof post JOU, I sers. hope UW control will dominate the meta game enough to make then unfeasible)

SE Report 6993189
G1 Bx Devotion vs Young Dancers (MDU) SE 6993189
G2 Dredge vs Young Dancers (MDU) SE 6993189
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uy4myQo ... y6m7Azu4Ma&
amp;noredirect=1]G3 RDW vs Young Dancers (MDU) SE 6993189[/url]

Thanks LaZer for the list, helpful as always

Following situation vs Esper Control after SB: I have both YP and T/T in my opening hand. I'm on the play, both players play a CIPT land t1. What's the correct plan?

a) play T2 YP, allowing them to remove it but then being able to play T/T without risking it being countered?
b) hold back YP and play T/T on t3 even if they have 2 mana open?
C) hold back both spells, hoping for a later point in time to be able to play T/T?

As a variant, would it make a difference
if you have Phoenix in that situation? A 2 mana burnspell?

If its against Control I'll slam YP$ T2 no matter what - its not a crucial part of the attack plan in that MU at all.

(off-topic: I'm not looking forward too Hexproof post JOU, I sers. hope UW control will dominate the meta game enough to make then unfeasible)

Given how I bombed 2 UWx matchups last night, I'm deferring to MDU. Land floods and mulls to 5 but still, I was being too durdly.

Just out of curiousity, how do you guys feel about this deck after the release of JOU? I'm not seeing many, if any, ugrades to the core, and we are looking at some stiffer competition with cards like nyx-fleece ram hitting just about every white deck sideboard. Are most of you guys planning to continue with Boros Burn?

Font of Ire is good. I won;t let anyone tell me otherwise.

Purp loves bad Lava Axes.

Just out of curiousity, how do you guys feel about this deck after the release of JOU? I'm not seeing many, if any, ugrades to the core, and we are looking at some stiffer competition with cards like nyx-fleece ram hitting just about every white deck sideboard. Are most of you guys planning to continue with Boros Burn?

Hard to tell. There will certainly be as adjustment period. As MDU pointed out, Hexproof is also getting some tools.

Nyx-Fleece Ram is not a lot different than, e.g., Staff, which we can beat, and we do have ways to kill Ram. Overall, I'm guessing there will be more match-ups where we play control, and card advantage will become
important, so Chandra, Hammer, etc., might become more important.

There are some other tools we haven't been using that might become relevant. I've experimented with Pain Seer for card advantage (when it's good it's great, but it frequently doesn't work) as well as a singleton Gild as an 5th "Chained" effect. (It's not as bad as you might think.)

Anyway, there's a good chance the deck - as is - may struggle, especially with the options Mana Confluence opens up for other decks. But I'm thinking the core will be viable, it will just need tinkering.

I am just spitballing here but if the meta shifts more to black aggro and WW then obviously firedancer comes back. Or anger of the gods. I actually think BW/atheros would be very annoying to play against without Anger.

Welllll I quit playing Jundsters becuase fuck naya hexproof that is why..... Been playing this deck for a while now. I can say that Ash zealot is corner case at best, yp creates so much value in this deck it is stupid. So far I have been able to go 12-1 against the naya hexproof deck that has been ruining my local meta for me since I switched. This deck is great at controling that match up. The only time I see ashley being better is trying to pop a demon, or other big dumb creature with first strike + burn. Often times I find it more valid to burn and block tokens until I top deck an assemble or chains to deal with big dumb creatures.

Also, wild riccochet = love. Flooded out against control, get to 8 mana, slam helix, control player slams dissipate, slam ricochet, change target of his spell to wild ricochet, cast new one targeting his. Get the scry, top deck a firstblade and drop it next turn, ride to win.

Font of Ire is good. I won;t let anyone tell me otherwise.

Damn right. Bad Lava Axe? You mean basically a Rift Bolt with suspend 2 that deals five damage.

And I'm at least half serious about that.

I hear Shrine of Burning Rage was quite good during its time?

OK, this thing obviously only deals 5 damage, but for that it's never a dead card.
Don't forget it's effect can't be countered and we have nothing really to do on t2 anyways, so it fits the curve quite nicely..

Need to stock up on scrylands, though, as we have to reliably hit 4 mana...

With the amount of 3 color decks that'll probbly pop up after mana confluence comes out how viable is running burning earth? Clearly you dont wanna run it while we're on the dega setup but cutting back to just red and white with the pressure added by our spells it could close out alot of games.

You won't want BE against any deck running counterspells or enchantment removal which is...a fair bit. You also don't want it again any quick agro decks. I generally view BE as a weaker assemble.

Burning Earth is very strong against 3-color decks. It's not seeing play right now because there's only one of those. After the last two guilds get their scrylands and we have City of Brass, plenty of people will be experimenting with shards. I think BE will be very powerful during weak 1, but its long-term applications will be weakened if either the meta reverts back to fewer-color decks, or once the tri-color decks look into instant-speed enchantment hate.

Went 3-0 in the SE I played today. That's 2x in a row for me. I'm now 7 out of 9 matches with the Ash list, and am 1 QP short of 15. [Edit: And my rating has gone up 60 points in the last week.]

In the last match, I pulled the following hand on the play for Game 1. About as good as it gets! I scryed a Chained. Would you keep it? I didn't, hoping to get the land for T//T. Then he played a Swamp. Ugh. But I drew a Mutavault and I hit him for 6 damage, and won the game eventually.



On game 3, my opp Thoughtseized away a Charm, but also saw I had an Anger of the Gods. He evidently thought I wouldn't play it because I also had an Ash. It was a mistake on his part because I played Ash and he couldn't do anything with a Rat he played.

Anyway, the decks I beat were: Hidden Agent (lol), Naya Hexproof, and Mono B Devo

The SB plans I use are
incredibly straight forward.

[deck=Montu's List]Lands 23
5 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Mutavault
4 Blood Crypt
2 Temple of Silence

Creatures 8
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Enchantments 3
3 Chained to the Rocks

Burns 25
4 Shock
4 Lightning Strike
3 Magma Jet
4 Skullcrack
2 Searing Blood
4 Boros Charm
4 Warleader's Helix


Sideboard 15
1 Chained to the Rocks
1 Blind Obedience
1 Toil // Trouble
1 Glare of Heresy
3 Peak Eruption
3 Satyr Firedancer
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Assemble the Legion
1 Hammer of Purphoros
[/deck]

I can say that Ash zealot is corner case at best, yp creates so much value in this deck it is stupid. So far I have been able to go 12-1 against the naya hexproof deck that has been ruining my local meta for me since I switched.

Uh, can you expand on this please? I suspect either he or you are running a very different version than the norm or he's a terrible pilot. Teach us your secrets, because 3/3 Hexproof Lifelinkers swinging on T3 beats burn especially when they get bigger fast. I'm guessing you have some number of Anger and Wear//Tear too?

I must admit I am enthralled with playing Burning Earth against Mana Confluence + 16 duals. I presume that if someone was to play BE they would have to keep it around 8 non basics, which means very light splashing.

In the last match, I pulled the following hand on the play for Game 1. About as good as it gets! I scryed a Chained. Would you keep it? I didn't, hoping to get the land for T//T. Then he played a Swamp. Ugh. But I drew a Mutavault and I hit him for 6 damage, and won the game eventually.

Yes, I would have tossed it to dig for lands against an unknown opponent and you already had a very fast agro hand with enough removal.While I would likely have kept it against a known black opponent, I wouldn't have actually minded either way.

running fanatical devotion i'd only run 8 duals for my white splash and only on a rare occasion missed out on having white on time for something like chain but then playing burn i've run into having mana for it and no mountains so it could be a tossup