[Primer] RDW

[Lightning_Dolt]

posed this to mtgsalvation but figured this is a batter place for the red mages to gather

disagree he isn't BAD after a board wipe, he is still a prescience on the table after a wipe, also he gives every guy you play after the wipe a psudo haste. reminds me of hellrider in some ways and is actually better then oger battledriver since it is more resilient to removal. I thik he is a 3 of, you want to draw him on turn 4 but don't want to see another one after that most likely.



Hammer is a bit of a different animal, it reminds me of fires to a degree. its a lot better then ferver, and it is a good mana sink when we flood. if and how many we play
depends on how the format shapes up.



my initial mono red list is as follows

[DECK]

4 Rackdos Cackler

4 Foundry Street Denizen

4 Legion Loyalist

4 Burning-Tree Emissary

4 Young Pyromancer

4 Chandras Phoenix

3 Purphoros, God of the Forge



4 Shock

4 Magma jet

2 Dynacharge

1 SkullCrack



18 Mountains

4 Mutavault



Sideboard

3 Skullcrack

3 Burning Earth

3 Flames of the Firebrand

3 Mizzim Mortars

2 Hammer of Purphoros

1 Smelt

[/DECK]





notes

lack of ash zealot, I LOVE LOVE LOVE me some ash zealot, he is just kind of hard to cast for this deck, the trade off between him and BTE is close it could easly become zealot over BTE.



No firefist.....-_- I love this guy I just couldn't find a slot for him yet and it makes me a sad panda. more tstign will say if this is right or not.



I am torn on Young Pyromancer she seems strong, but I don't know yet more testing is needed. she seems insane with Purphoros out
and may lead to some form of combo burn deck, like pyromancer turn 2 or 3 turn 4 purphoros turn 5 shock jet mugging ect burn to the dome, make guys.



the side is obv tenitive, smelt seems out of place at first but we do need a answer to Bow of Nylea and trading post decks.

Too early to start brewing. We only have a third of the cards from the new set.

[Lightning_Dolt]

if Saito was main decking Burning Earth then he's gone down a terrible path and I hope he comes back to us someday

Saito was running:

4 rakdos cackler
4 ash zealot
4 boros reckoner
4 chandra's phoenix
4 hellrider
4 thundermaw hellkite
2 chandra
4 mizzium mortars
5 ???
4 mutavault
21 mountain

Sideboard
4 burning earth
2 zealous conscripts
9 ???

[warwizard87]

I don't think its to early yet to start brewing, its pretty easy to flesh out the shells of decks. its pretty obvious there is a R/X or mono red deck here, its never to early to start seeing how the cards currently known interact with the previous set, thus far very well. am I assuming this is a final build? of course not but its a shell we can start building from. as spoilers keep coming in by starting to brew now we will have a slight general read of whats strong based on what we have already worked. in short I am trying to lay the ground work, a base foundation, a outline and will adjust as more and more is reveled.

[Lightning_Dolt]

I don't think its to early yet to start brewing, its pretty easy to flesh out the shells of decks. its pretty obvious there is a R/X or mono red deck here, its never to early to start seeing how the cards currently known interact with the previous set, thus far very well. am I assuming this is a final build? of course not but its a shell we can start building from. as spoilers keep coming in by starting to brew now we will have a slight general read of whats strong based on what we have already worked. in short I am trying to lay the ground work, a base foundation, a outline and will adjust as more and more is reveled.

I respectfully disagree. 11 red cards, one or two of which are constructed playable is not enough to start brewing yet.
Don't get me wrong, I'm very eager to begin too, but there's no point in brewing RTR block decks with one Theros card thrown in. Be patient.

[Valdarith]

Too early to brew. Wait for the entire spoiler. It's good to think about what direction you nay want to go based on current spoilers, but brewing a deck right now is pointless.

[rcwraspy]

I have the brewing bug too, but it occurs to me that part of brewing needs to be an acknowledgement of what you'll face. Not only do we not have many playable red cards from Theros yet, we also don't have a good sense of what other archetypes gain, or if new archetypes will be formed.

[Lightning_Dolt]

And if they keep revealing hexproof walls / amazing pro-red creatures, it won't happen anyway.

[Yarpus]

It's more about estimating card's power level than about brewing real decks. These will get changed depending on meta-game. At the moment, we can think about constructions that use Purphoros or Cerberus for sake OF Purhopros or Cerberus. At least that is what I do.

[warwizard87]

about the same yarpus, it gives me some idea of the level the card is at in a vacuum and concidering 280 odd cards is replacing 4 sets, the cards will be judge manely how they interact with RTR and m14 so we can get a estimated gage of power based on that knowledge alone. of course its not 100 percent accurate yet but it shows us immediately what shells of decks exist, baring a completely new archetype (always possible) RTR will mostly define what decks exist.

[warwizard87]

from what I been playing around with voice and the 0/3 mana wall are both a bit of a problem, jund dosnt look like much of a problem honestly, unless it pulls in some REDIC creatures it just seems to lose its base, tusk, huntmaster, Olivia, bonfire, all gone. this leaves a nice midrange vacuum that unless something fills it I think jund is close to dead, that said it is possible it can exist ina mana ramp form with the wall and the plains walker fulling big craterhoofs and Polukranos and rakdos returns, unless of course something new comes up to swing it back midrange/controlish and less rampish.

[Lightning_Dolt]

from what I been playing around with voice and the 0/3 mana wall are both a bit of a problem, jund dosnt look like much of a problem honestly, unless it pulls in some REDIC creatures it just seems to lose its base, tusk, huntmaster, Olivia, bonfire, all gone. this leaves a nice midrange vacuum that unless something fills it I think jund is close to dead, that said it is possible it can exist ina mana ramp form with the wall and the plains walker fulling big craterhoofs and Polukranos and rakdos returns, unless of course something new comes up to swing it back midrange/controlish and less rampish.

We don't know know if jund will be a deck yet because we haven't seen enough spoiled yet. It obviously won't exist in it's current form but it
may take on a new form. Again, too early to know.

[Khaospawn]

Jund will just take a new form to continue inspiring fear...much like the T-1000. Or the Blob.

[warwizard87]

Seriusly if you don't like discussion of post rotation cards and formats your better off being back over at mtgsalavation, its not frowned on here and you don't need to repeat your self everytime some one posts about the new set if you dont like the speculation don't read it.

[RedNihilist]

Let's try to avoid losing our cool, please.

[Valdarith]

Seriusly if you don't like discussion of post rotation cards and formats your better off being back over at mtgsalavation, its not frowned on here and you don't need to repeat your self everytime some one posts about the new set if you dont like the speculation don't read it.

If you want to brew, dedicate a thread to it instead of going off-topic in a competitive Standard thread. This is a RDW thread for the current Standard environment, so no rotation talk should be discussed here.

[warwizard87]

Show me the rule in this fourm were they say that. In fact that's one of the reasons we left mtgsalavation in the first place. If you would like look through the threads here its far from off topic to discuss mono red aggro with the new cards since #1 mono red is a top block deck which normaly leads to a deck being tier in the forthcoming t2 #2 seiusly your thinking your what next month of rdws current standard brews will matter outside of a few fnms? #3 have a problem with it tell a mod get off our nuts and just don't read the frecking posts ot is that just to difficult?

[Valdarith]

I'm just saying that we already have a Red After Rotation thread that it seems like this would be a great place to put your brews.

No need to be a dick.

[warwizard87]

So what your saying is this thread has a different standard then say the dos rekies thread were we are already discussing theros, and it for some reason offends a couple of you cuz your such hard ass red players that we can't discuss them in this thread......right?

Check yo'self before you wreck yo'self. -Alex

[Valdarith]

I don't think it should be discussed in the Dos Rakis thread, either. It's fine to discuss it in the Standard forums but these threads are dedicated to the current environment where decklists are posted.

I suggest you stop acting so butthurt and go post in the Red rotation thread. Who pissed in your Wheaties today?

[Alex]

So what your saying is this thread has a different standard then say the dos rekies thread were we are already discussing theros, and it for some reason offends a couple of you cuz your such hard ass red players that we can't discuss them in this thread......right?

There's really no need for this, because Val is right. We can't speculate about whether or not currently known decks are going to be good in the future league, since we don't even know what to expect out of other decks. That being said, discussing it is pretty pointless until we have all of the available information.

The difference between us and MTGSalvation is that we're not going to suspend/ban/whatever you for it, but when someone points out the obvious fact that there's no
need to discuss something until all of the relevant information is presented, that's not "being a little bitch," it's called "knowing all of the angles," which is a tool that good deckbuilders and wise Magic players use to their advantage.

We here at D2R aren't interested in what could be and what might have been, we're interested in what IS and what WILL BE. You'd do well to remember that we choose to base our testing and practices in actual math and data, and not in some Christmas-y "feel good" style of deckbuilding. That's the type of thing that is protected at MTGS.

That being said, I would encourage you to go to or open a speculation thread. The guys here are trying to tune for their last few weeks in Standard with this list, and saying "this is what things might be like in a few weeks" isn't helpful to that because most of the cards in these lists won't be around anymore anyway.

[warwizard87]

Well in that case Alex go tell all the people in dos rekis to shut up about our brews cuz wow we are in the wrong thread right.? There was nothing feel good or christmas land about what I was working on, I was building from rtrs base and seeing what works and what dosnt with current known information, why is it wrong to try to get a jump by brewing early? The early brew fourm has one thread and 0 posts cuz every one else uses these fourms to do exactly what pissed these guys off.

[Alex]

Well in that case Alex go tell all the people in dos rekis to shut up about our brews cuz wow we are in the wrong thread right.?

Clearly you missed the point of my post, which was to inform you that you need to lose the unhelpful, outwardly aggressive attitude because it doesn't do anything for the thread in question and these types of posts will start vanishing in short order.

Cheers.

[Alex]

PS: The early brew forum is "empty" because it got completely cleaned out before M14 dropped. Use it and people will come.

[warwizard87]

from what I been playing around with voice and the 0/3 mana wall are both a bit of a problem, jund dosnt look like much of a problem honestly, unless it pulls in some REDIC creatures it just seems to lose its base, tusk, huntmaster, Olivia, bonfire, all gone. this leaves a nice midrange vacuum that unless something fills it I think jund is close to dead, that said it is possible it can exist ina mana ramp form with the wall and the plains walker fulling big craterhoofs and Polukranos and rakdos returns, unless of course something new comes up to swing it back midrange/controlish and less rampish.[/
quote]

We don't know know if jund will be a deck yet because we haven't seen enough spoiled yet. It obviously won't exist in it's current form but it may take on a new form. Again, too early to know.

What pissed me off is posts like this, obviously not reading what i say and what I said had substance and was relevant towards working on a deck it was a observation of what jund lost and based on current knowledge were it may adapt to, if people are going to make dismissve comments with out reading just because "they don't think something belongs here" I'm gonna snap back at them.

[Alex]

from what I been playing around with voice and the 0/3 mana wall are both a bit of a problem, jund dosnt look like much of a problem honestly, unless it pulls in some REDIC creatures it just seems to lose its base, tusk, huntmaster, Olivia, bonfire, all gone. this leaves a nice midrange vacuum that unless something fills it I think jund is close to dead, that said it is possible it can exist ina mana ramp form with the wall and the plains
walker fulling big craterhoofs and Polukranos and rakdos returns, unless of course something new comes up to swing it back midrange/controlish and less rampish.

We don't know know if jund will be a deck yet because we haven't seen enough spoiled yet. It obviously won't exist in it's current form but it may take on a new form. Again, too early to know.

What pissed me off is posts like this, obviously not reading what i say and what I said had substance and was relevant towards working on a deck it was a observation of what jund lost and based on current knowledge were it may adapt to, if people are going to make dismissve comments with out reading just because "they don't think something belongs here" I'm gonna snap back at them.

Are you kidding me? There was literally nothing aggressive or even wrong about his post. He's 100% right. This forum isn't for "feelings," its for facts. Read the rules again. It shouldn't be
hard, there aren't many.

Here I'll even help so you don't have to hunt them down.

Welcome to the competitive subforum. In an attempt to make the moderation team's life easier, I've decided to make this post to help define the types of posts we wish to house here in this subforum. A lot of the "founding" members of the competitive Standard community had very high hopes for how the competitive section at MTGS would be handled, but after months of repeated neglect and the open support of casual players in the competitive subforums, we watched our hard work turn to a cesspool within weeks. We don't aim to let that happen here.

As such, we do have certain guidelines that will be set in place. The guidelines are as follows:

Non-competitive lists and discussion does not belong here.
Any threads
for decklists that haven't performed at least moderately well in a competitive REL tournament will be moved to developing. If your list meets these credentials please link to a tournament report on either a well-known site like TCGPlayer, or on your LGS' website. Unlike MTGS, we will not be locking and archiving perfectly good threads for being in the wrong subforum, but we would appreciate if you didn't make us do the work of having to move your threads.

Discussion regarding budget alternatives, pet cards, and other non-competitive nuances should be done in either developing or the standard main forum.

Brag posts are fine as long as there are relevant results to go with them.
Taking down a large tournament is no small feat, and as such, if you want to share your triumph with the community, we understand. However, we ask that you provide relevant information along with your brag post, such as your decklist, the size of the event, the finish you made, and
preferably your game-by-game synopsis. Consider it a tournament report with the icing being that you win at the end.

All posts in these subforums require tags.
This means that you tag your post according to what is inside of the thread. This is both for the ease of the typical user as well as ease of moderation. These tags should be typed in front of the name of your thread in the subject line. For those who are unaware of what "tags" mean, here is a short list of appropriate tags and their meanings. I'm sure I'll forget some; don't hesitate to PM me with suggestions.

● [SCD] stands for "single card discussion," and this is generally used when trying to spark discussion for use in a deck of the appropriate archetype.
● [Primer] is used to indicate that there is a primer for a certain archetype in the original post. A primer is a "how to" on how to build and play a certain deck.
● [Q&A] can be used when asking questions
about the archetype, such as intricacies in how to play it, how to sideboard, etc.
● [Variant] is used to describe a variation of an already established archetype. Unless these lists have proven results, we would ask that you post them in the appropriate subforum (developing) instead of the competitive forum.

Civility is encouraged but not enforced.
What does this mean for the average user? If you are breaking any of the guidelines above, the community at large is well within their right to ridicule you with no moderator intervention. We aren't here to hold your hand. We believe and trust in the community enough to understand that if you are being flamed off of a forum by a group of people, there is likely a reason for it. That being said, please take a moment to reflect on the things you post before you post them.

To put this guideline simply; if you're bullshitting, be prepared to get called out on your bullshit.





If you guys, as contributing
members of the community feel as though there needs to be something added here, we can discuss it in this thread. (I'm going to be locking this thread so that I can sticky it, but I am interested in your input.)

Non-competitive lists and discussion does not belong here.
Any threads for decklists that haven't performed at least moderately well in a competitive REL tournament will be moved to developing. If your list meets these credentials please link to a tournament report on either a well-known site like TCGPlayer, or on your LGS' website. Unlike MTGS, we will not be locking and archiving perfectly good threads for being in the wrong subforum, but we would appreciate if you didn't make us do the work of having to move your threads.

Discussion regarding budget alternatives, pet cards, and other non-competitive nuances should be done
in either developing or the standard main forum.

[warwizard87]

So let me get this straight on the day the rotation happens the entire competitive section will be removed right? Since we have no way of knowing what will be competitive yet right? Come on Alex use your logical reasoning there. Obviously previous block decks will remain competitive at lest untill after states. Nothing I said in my post wasn't fact, voice is a problem with no puller and the new wall is better the farseek since its a hell of a blocker the jund creatures that are leaving are tough to replace and nothing has come close to replacing them yet and unless they get some serious beef jund is either dead or has to move to a more rampy build? What feelings did I use there? Jund with out that strong midrange base is not nearly as good ? Right? If they don't get a strong midrange creature set it has to morph or die right?

[Alex]

So let me get this straight on the day the rotation happens the entire competitive section will be removed right? Since we have no way of knowing what will be competitive yet right? Come on Alex use your logical reasoning there. Obviously previous block decks will remain competitive at lest untill after states.

Actually yes, that's exactly what will happen. We're going to clear out the subsection and start from zero again in much the same fashion that MTGS does. It leads to less clutter and easier browsing/reading for guests. We have a Block Constructed forum so that information won't be lost, and everything here will be archived. (Probably under the Modern section since these decks will still be legal there and if people want to build upon old
ideas, they can use the information in these threads as a guideline.)

I'm not telling you not to discuss spoiled cards, I'm telling you not to discuss them in threads for decks that are currently established in the CURRENT Standard metagame, not one that will exist a month in the future.

Anyway, my lunch break is over. I suggest you go to the main forum and open a discussion thread there, or even use the Rumor area subforum if you want. You'll get more immediate traffic in the main standard forum I bet, but it can't hurt to crosspost. I can merge the two threads later and leave a ghost thread that redirects later when I get off of work.

[warwizard87]

Alex does that stand for everythread here or just ones were a couple people complain about it?

[redthirst]

Alex does that stand for everythread here or just ones were a couple people complain about it?

Certainly all of them and I'm just as guilty of it as you are.

My b.

[Alex]

Alex does that stand for everythread here or just ones were a couple people complain about it?

I'm not sure how to more clearly convey the point. Instead I will just use this image.

[Jack]

I'm just saying that we already have a Red After Rotation thread that it seems like this would be a great place to put your brews.

No need to be a dick.

Actually, that forum might be in the FoS clan restricted areas...
Feel free to make one in the standard forum, though

[zemanjaski]

Just want to throw my weight behind Alex. Please limit discussion in the competitive section to the reality of spoiled cards only.

[Lightning_Dolt]

So... I like red cards... lol.

As the standard season is winding down, there isn't much of a point in trying to be innovative right now. This is however relevant to current standard and probably future standard. What are people's opinions on:

BTE + Firefist Striker + Young Pyromancer (or other chain-able creature)

vs

Ash Zealot + Young Pyromancer + extra burn

I have switched back and forth between the two, and I'm not sure which I really prefer.

In my experience, BTE can give you more explosive starts, but also hurts more if you walk into a sweeper. It's also a painfully bad top deck. It seems to be the more powerful of the two.

Ash Zealot + burn plan seems to have more synergy with phoenix etc, and more burn gives you more young pyromancer triggers, more ways to interact with early scavenging ooze, and ash zealot is a better top deck.

What do you guys think, and which are you currently playing?
I'm on the BTE plan currently.

[zemanjaski]

I definitely prefer the second option, if their equal in power; it's more grindy with higher quality cards, which appeals more to be stylistically. The first option is more explosive of course. Which is better tends to be a meta-call I think; but heading into rotation ill be exploring the second option with appropriate build arounds. It's just how I like to build my aggro decks (every card is individually good, with some synergy).

[Lightning_Dolt]

I definitely prefer the second option, if their equal in power; it's more grindy with higher quality cards, which appeals more to be stylistically. The first option is more explosive of course. Which is better tends to be a meta-call I think; but heading into rotation ill be exploring the second option with appropriate build arounds. It's just how I like to build my aggro decks (every card is individually good, with some synergy).

I guess the other consideration is that the Ash Zealot option is a lot better vs Electrickery, Golgari Charm, Flames of the Firebrand etc. Not really a fan of X/1s.

[LP, of the Fires]

I think the first option is likely to see more play initially because it's more "obvious" and probably more punishing against bad decks, but I like Mr. Zeman prefer the latter option because Ash and Young pyro are simply my favorite cards in standard and that deck is likely better in the mirror.

[zemanjaski]

Oh yeah, in the Rx mirror, having no 1 drops in game 1 is such a huge edge. 1-for-1 into Chandra or Hammer and extend hand.

[Valdarith]

I prefer the second option, as evidenced by my most recent decklist in this thread. I too prefer a more grindy list and YP + Ash Zealot allows me to play that kind of game if necessary.

[Lightning_Dolt]

I really prefer the AZ package too, but the BTE package seems to put up better numbers. I hate having BTE with nothing to chain...

[zemanjaski]

Right now there isn't a reason not to BTE - lots of cards to chain into, better positioned against the pillars of the format. I really think that will change though.