Dies to Removal

Fahey, in Mogadishu's defense, your entry into this discussion with a Curse representative was to start issuing e-threats and telling him he was a corporate shill who was just here to distract us from finding out what's really going on at MTGS when literally every single person who isn't you has mostly been interested in just trying to get our bans reversed and also possibly the logs of the Gutter, which the latter isn't happening and wasn't happening before Curse was officially in charge.

What does threatening someone offering to look into and possibly get banned people who were wrongfully banned unbanned do to help actualize the goal we have in mind?

I get that we're all upset about the way things have been on MTGS for a while now, but one thing at a time, and each of those things without verbally assaulting someone who's coming into a dialog with us they do not need to have.

Also Fahey, please don't lump your friend in the same category as you. Onar is like the least agenda'd guy in the history of the Internet. Talk about a friendly face to have around. Just because we're not all bashing Boubs with you doesn't mean you need to turn your crap in this direction. Next thing you'll have a source with a quote that kpaca is hiding a dark past from the mtgcommunity and only you know the sources email address.

Flaming people directly affected by this situation is not helping at all. Kindly cut that shit out Fahey.

#regards

Fahey, this thread is a launching grounds for those of us who have been involved in over a year of headaches to reach closure and move on with our website. It's not for you to threaten strikes against the mtg staff or make demands for us. I appreciate your offer of diplomatic advise but quite frankly you have no horse in this race and your involvement is nothing but a detection.

If you do bit cease and desist as requested, I will see about having someone else prevent you from continuing to post.

Good bye and good day, have a merry Christmas.

Like bouboille, im trying to save you a headache. Just ignore Yanni and probably Fahey as well itt.

You seem pretty upset.

Im done dealing with people who just want to incite drama. Go find that somewhere else please.
Some of us have been at this near a year, and I for one would appreciate it if you would kindly take your crusader attacks on mtgstaff and Internet toughguy act elsewhere.

Thanks again.

You act like we incite drama, and yet...I can't help but notice that all you do is bitch, moan, and complain. Both RussianAlara and myself have reasons as to why we are even here. IT isn't because we want to incite drama. The reason we are here is because unlike you,we aren't interested in pointing out every fucking flaw that's going on. I could point out how much of a bitch you are as a person, but given the fact that you seem to think you're never wrong, it's be fruitless.

The ones hindering this entire thing are you and people like you. How about you let people with a bit of diplomacy handle it. Maybe we'll even get your dumb ass back on Sally.

flaming isn't helping Fahey

Az, I don't see how the staff could be considered reasonable given they lied to the people
in the pegging chamber for months after they knew curse wanted the gutter nuked, and acted as if they didn't. please tell me if I misunderstood your point

pm to Curse admin I sent just now:

Hey, Boubouille , here is my email : [email protected] so we can coordinate our efforts.


list :

N_S

Madding ( Kaitscralt here)

Yanni

i will add more as I learn solid details , but since ER was the one banning them mostly , I ask for him not be on appeals committee as he may be biased. I suggest the users Belgarth and Harkius to be on the board as being fair.

also you can use the thread here or my website as a place to summit to resolve this issue.


With respect , Onar Bargior

Az, I don't see how the staff could be considered reasonable given they lied to the people in the pegging chamber for months after they knew curse wanted the gutter nuked, and acted as if they didn't. please tell me if I misunderstood your point

The full intentions or acceptance of Curse regarding the gutter were not known when the pegging chamber discussion began.
These discussions were an attempt of the staff to get the gutter to become an acceptable forum that Curse would definitely not have a problem with.
Even after the "leaked" post, there was a lot of discussion as to how the gutter could survive, and whether curse would accept it.
There was never a post from anyone at curse that said it had to be nuked, no compromise.

nBoubouille's presence here speaks volumes to these facts.

Now, I'm not saying the staff was completely forthcoming with everything that was behind the scenes, but understand they couldn't always be.
Discussing things from the modlounge that aren't explicitly stated as "you can repeat this" is strictly forbidden.
This is an absolutely necessary rule, but it sometimes has bad side effects. Specifically, it has gives less clarity when things are uncertain.
Whether or not Curse would accept a less gratuitous gutter was unknown, but there had to be some middle ground.
Something that gave us most of the freedoms we enjoyed, but wasn't quite as over the top NSFW.

There were errors and faults on both sides, but the staff really was attempting to come to an acceptable middle ground that could keep the gutter alive in some fashion.
They weren't trying to string you along or lie to you. There is obviously no good outcome that would ever have, and they know that.

pm to Curse admin I sent just now:

Hey, Boubouille , here is my email : [email protected] so we can coordinate our efforts.


list :

N_S

Madding ( Kaitscralt here)

Yanni

i will add more as I learn solid details , but since ER was the one banning them mostly , I ask for him not be on appeals committee as he may be biased. I suggest the users Belgarth and Harkius to be on the board as being fair.

also you can use the thread here or my website as a place to summit to resolve this issue.


With respect , Onar Bargior

harkius fair

hahahahhaha
good one onar

I
mean from what I understand, Nai posted in the mod lounge that the gutter had to be eliminated or changed to the point where it would be the gutter in name only. They acted as if the gutter could keep its traditions of swearing and using racial slurs as they pleased, with the stipulation that hazing had to stop and a gutter see/gutter post would be made as well as a TOS. Is this something that Curse would find acceptable currently?

Az I'm sorry but they have not been fairly reasonable nor accommodating in the slightest. It's starting to grate on me that you trumpet that time and time again tbh.

Well, they're not complete saints, and the bar for them has been set pretty low, but it takes at least a modicum of reasonableness to continue the dialogue with the gutter and pushing for dumps despite the pretty constant level of negativity headed their way.

I just don't think either side is giving the other enough credit. Each of you think the other is the hand of Satan.

pm to Curse admin I sent just now:

Hey, Boubouille , here is my email : [email protected] so we can coordinate our efforts.


list :

N_S

Madding ( Kaitscralt here)

Yanni

i will add more as I learn solid details , but since ER was the one banning them mostly , I ask for him not be on appeals committee as he may be biased. I suggest the users Belgarth and Harkius to be on the board as being fair.

also you can use the thread here or my website as a place to summit to resolve this issue.


With respect , Onar Bargior

Onar I am really quite baffled by this post. I know you're trying to help but your list is missing names and your Harkius recommendation
makes no sense.

Users browsing this forum: King Spam and 1 guest

Gal, you read this thread every day. Just make an account and talk to us.

pm to Curse admin I sent just now:

Hey, Boubouille , here is my email : [email protected] so we can coordinate our efforts.


list :

N_S

Madding ( Kaitscralt here)

Yanni

i will add more as I learn solid details , but since ER was the one banning them mostly , I ask for him not be on appeals committee as he may be biased. I suggest the users Belgarth and Harkius to be on the board as being fair.

also you can use the thread here or my website as a place to summit to resolve this issue.


With respect , Onar Bargior

Thanks for proving that you need to remove yourself from these discussions. I will now repeat my request that you kindly let the parties
actually involved in this handle it while you watch from the sidelines. Thanks in advance.

Az I'm sorry but they have not been fairly reasonable nor accommodating in the slightest. It's starting to grate on me that you trumpet that time and time again tbh.

Well, they're not complete saints, and the bar for them has been set pretty low, but it takes at least a modicum of reasonableness to continue the dialogue with the gutter and pushing for dumps despite the pretty constant level of negativity headed their way.

I just don't think either side is giving the other enough credit. Each of you think the other is the hand of Satan.

Had a longer post typed up but I'd rather sum it up as: lol

This is the face I make when I hear about how they went out on a limb to
try and have a discussion with us

pm to Curse admin I sent just now:

Hey, Boubouille , here is my email : [email protected] so we can coordinate our efforts.


list :

N_S

Madding ( Kaitscralt here)

Yanni

i will add more as I learn solid details , but since ER was the one banning them mostly , I ask for him not be on appeals committee as he may be biased. I suggest the users Belgarth and Harkius to be on the board as being fair.

also you can use the thread here or my website as a place to summit to resolve this issue.


With respect
, Onar Bargior

Thanks for proving that you need to remove yourself from these discussions. I will now repeat my request that you kindly let the parties actually involved in this handle it while you watch from the sidelines. Thanks in advance.

It's funny, because you're the most butthurt, militant little fuck who is so pissed he was banned from an internet forum that you seriously sit there and tell people who actually give a shit to get out.

I'm going to laugh my fucking ass off when you're left with nothing but posting here because they refused to unban your stupid ass, and for good reason.

Haha wat?

You see sir, I've had this conversation with multiple entities before boubou, and it has grated on me, as it has all of us. Us does not include you here, as you were not invloved. The same can be said of Onar. While we appreciate your intent (well Onar's is appreciated in my case), the fact is that you guys dont really have the proper context to be speaking towards the situation we are attempting to discuss and there is more than just me who would like to see the unnesseary chatter and white noise removed in order to finally reach our closure. This even includes asking Yanni to stfu you may have noticed, despite him being in our "clique" as some may say.

As an aside does cursing a bunch make your point more valid or something? Is that just something they beat into you in the marines so you could feel tough while you got shot at or soething? i mean I love to curse man but you are to good cursing
what paula dean is to good cooking. Fat and soggy and oversaturated.

You do realize we can all read the chat archive where you say you will run us over with a bus, ony want two of us unbanned because the rest of us are asses, claim to be a fbi level troll, and attempt to defame curse and boubou's help specifically as much as possible? Like kindly take your "help" and "diplomacy", turn it sideways, and shove it up your semper fidelis.

Fahey. Please read my last post as if it had red bold text in the other forum. We like our moderation to be as little disruptive as possible, but I'm gonna be forced to do lulzy things to your posts if you fail to grant me what I have so politely asked from you. Once again: kindly cut that shit out.

Your friendly neighborhood administrator, GR.

Ew, modding.

using charged language doesn't make your point Fahey, please stop

Az I'm sorry but they have not been fairly reasonable nor accommodating in the slightest. It's starting to grate on me that you trumpet that time and time again tbh.

Well, they're not complete saints, and the bar for them has been set pretty low, but it takes at least a modicum of reasonableness to continue the dialogue with the gutter and pushing for dumps despite the pretty constant level of negativity headed their way.

I just don't think either side is giving the other enough credit. Each of you think the other is
the hand of Satan.

Had a longer post typed up but I'd rather sum it up as: lol

This is the face I make when I hear about how they went out on a limb to try and have a discussion with us

They went further than a number of moderators either of us could name would have gone.

And apart from the gutter, which is a sore point for them, they've been pretty moderate in how they're handling the remainder of the forum and open to change and dialogue.

The gutter in exile is now the only group that is crossing swords with the current admin. CI warriors, mafia, WCT, debate, even a lot of the surviving gutter people haven't had much of anything new to complain about in CI for a while now. The problem is specific to how the staff has been handling the gutter - and how the gutter has been relating to the staff.

Hell, they finally (finally) terminated Woap without a single bit of
outside pressure that I'm aware of, and whatever you feel about unbanning KCW, it was a surprisingly lenient move for them.

If you guys ran this the way that Scumbag did the first time they tried to kill the gutter, I'm almost positive you would be back in the gutter right now, kicking your feet back. It's not too late to change approaches - but you'll need to make an effort to understand the other side's position, just as the staff will have to look at what happened from the gutter's perspective. No one came out of this looking like an angel.

That last paragraph is a load of it Azrael. It's pretty low of you to put it the way you just did. I thought this thread was about Boubs? If not, I'm not done here.

As Jones suggested, I'm staying the fuck out of this, but I do feel behooved to state that your take on the situation is significantly different than mine and a lot of other people's, Az.

Blackhound and 4 guests

Feel free to register.

I must admit, the past month at Salvation has been a lot better than the previous months of shitfest.

That last paragraph is a load of it Azrael. It's pretty low of you to put it the way you just did. I thought this thread was about Boubs? If not, I'm not done here.

I've made it plain from the start that I thought the "rabid dog" approach was a huge mistake, although an understandable one. You didn't start the fight - but the way you handled the persecution is what has led to alienating the moderate forces on staff who would have eventually counter-balanced the opposition and come out on top, just as they did before.

Anyone remember when Scumbag laid into Sene in the pegging chamber? Up until that point, Sene was going to the mat to fight the decision for the gutter. But when the gutter turned around and planted a knife in his
back, that tune changed pretty quick. At this point, you've systematically done the same thing to people who would otherwise have been willing to back you and have a meaningful dialogue.

So yes, harsh words, but the gutter has made and is continuing to make some very dumb, very emotional moves. You handled it exactly right the first time, which is why the gutter not only survived that particular attack but gained a significant presence among the staff - and has been completely hammered in this round.

Sure, this is about Boubs. And he's keeping an open mind. But he's listening to both the staff and the gutter to get his information. So if you want to convince him - you're probably going to need the iridium to sit down at the table and soften their position.

Az I'm sorry but they have not been fairly reasonable nor accommodating in the slightest. It's starting to grate on me that you trumpet that time and time again tbh.

Well, they're not complete saints, and the bar for them has been set pretty low, but it takes at least a modicum of reasonableness to continue the dialogue with the gutter and pushing for dumps
despite the pretty constant level of negativity headed their way.

I just don't think either side is giving the other enough credit. Each of you think the other is the hand of Satan.

Had a longer post typed up but I'd rather sum it up as: lol

This is the face I make when I hear about how they went out on a limb to try and have a discussion with us

They went further than a number of moderators either of us could name would have gone.

And apart from the gutter, which is a sore point for them, they've been pretty moderate in how they're handling the remainder of the forum and open to change and dialogue.

The gutter in exile is now the only group that is crossing swords with the current admin. CI warriors, mafia, WCT, debate, even a lot of the surviving gutter people haven't had much of anything new to complain about in CI for a while now. The problem is specific to how the
staff has been handling the gutter - and how the gutter has been relating to the staff.

Hell, they finally (finally) terminated Woap without a single bit of outside pressure that I'm aware of, and whatever you feel about unbanning KCW, it was a surprisingly lenient move for them.

If you guys ran this the way that Scumbag did the first time they tried to kill the gutter, I'm almost positive you would be back in the gutter right now, kicking your feet back. It's not too late to change approaches - but you'll need to make an effort to understand the other side's position, just as the staff will have to look at what happened from the gutter's perspective. No one came out of this looking like an angel.

Oh well excuse me for not complimenting them on how fragrant their butt smells while they shit on me.

That last paragraph is a load of it Azrael. It's pretty low of you to put it the way you just did. I thought this thread was about Boubs? If not, I'm not done here.

I've made it plain from the start that I thought the "rabid dog" approach was a huge mistake, although an understandable one. You didn't start the fight - but the way you handled the persecution is what has led to alienating the moderate forces on staff who would have eventually counter-balanced the opposition and come out on top, just as they did before.

Anyone remember when Scumbag laid into
Sene in the pegging chamber? Up until that point, Sene was going to the mat to fight the decision for the gutter. But when the gutter turned around and planted a knife in his back, that tune changed pretty quick. At this point, you've systematically done the same thing to people who would otherwise have been willing to back you and have a meaningful dialogue.

So yes, harsh words, but the gutter has made and is continuing to make some very dumb, very emotional moves.

Sure, this is about Boubs. And he's keeping an open mind. But he's listening to both the staff and the gutter to get his information. So if you want to convince him - you're probably going to need the iridium to sit down at the table and soften their position.

Oh right, we stabbed him in the back. Great point Azrael -->

And then Ive systematically stabbed people in the back.

What a crock dude.

I am so dumbfounded by you right now I'm really not sure how to respond. I dont expect you to like "be on our side" or whatever, but your new take on thinks makes me make this face -______________-

That last paragraph is a load of it Azrael. It's pretty low of you to put it the way you just did. I thought this thread was about Boubs? If not, I'm not done here.

I've made it plain from the start that I thought the "rabid dog" approach was a huge mistake, although an understandable one. You didn't start the fight - but the way you handled the persecution is what has led to alienating
the moderate forces on staff who would have eventually counter-balanced the opposition and come out on top, just as they did before.

Anyone remember when Scumbag laid into Sene in the pegging chamber? Up until that point, Sene was going to the mat to fight the decision for the gutter. But when the gutter turned around and planted a knife in his back, that tune changed pretty quick. At this point, you've systematically done the same thing to people who would otherwise have been willing to back you and have a meaningful dialogue.

So yes, harsh words, but the gutter has made and is continuing to make some very dumb, very emotional moves.

Sure, this is about Boubs. And he's keeping an open mind. But he's listening to both the staff and the gutter to get his information. So if you want to convince him - you're probably going to need the iridium to sit down at the table and soften their position.

Oh right, we stabbed him in the back. Great point Azrael

And then Ive systematically stabbed people in the back.

What a crock dude.

When's the last time you've had an open mind about the admin team?

Viper and Rian dropped out of the picture not long after the gutter-debacle. Those were the major forces behind that decision. None of the people who are there now, would have supported the closure.

Why do you think they're supporting it now?

That last paragraph is a load of it Azrael. It's pretty low of you to put it the way you just did. I thought this thread was about Boubs? If not, I'm not done here.

I've made it plain from the start that I thought the "rabid dog&
quot; approach was a huge mistake, although an understandable one. You didn't start the fight - but the way you handled the persecution is what has led to alienating the moderate forces on staff who would have eventually counter-balanced the opposition and come out on top, just as they did before.

Anyone remember when Scumbag laid into Sene in the pegging chamber? Up until that point, Sene was going to the mat to fight the decision for the gutter. But when the gutter turned around and planted a knife in his back, that tune changed pretty quick. At this point, you've systematically done the same thing to people who would otherwise have been willing to back you and have a meaningful dialogue.

So yes, harsh words, but the gutter has made and is continuing to make some very dumb, very emotional moves.

Sure, this is about Boubs. And he's keeping an open mind. But he's listening to both the staff and the gutter to get his information. So if you want to convince him - you're probably going to need the
iridium to sit down at the table and soften their position.

Oh right, we stabbed him in the back. Great point Azrael

And then Ive systematically stabbed people in the back.

What a crock dude.

When's the last time any of you guys has had an open mind about the admin team?

Viper and Rian dropped out of the picture not long after the gutter-debacle. Those were the major forces behind
that decision. None of the people who are there now, would have supported the closure.

Why do you think they're supporting it now?

Are you fucking kidding me Az? Weve attempted to have an open mind everytime there is a new admin. We had an open mind with mikeyg, worked pretty well. We had an open mind with Yukora, worked fucking great. An open mind with you, was perfect. We continued to have an open mind with every admin up until ER's promotion, Ill give ypu that one. But the rest? We didn’t just jump them like a pack of dogs, what the fuck are you smoking? With each single one of them it wasnt until we met back alley mutterings, double speak, politics, lies, and cover ups, as well as a refusal to do anything other than blow smoke up our asses in discussions why they stalled us for who knows what reason.

The fact that you just decided that were in our situation for failure to give new admins a chance is fucking baffling Az. Are you so caught up in being this large,
looming, omnipresent fix all political advisor that you lost sighte of how long we've been trying to have discussions (lol peggimg chamber) and how many times WE were given the run around?

I’m not championing our innocence, but you’re full of shit with that last comment, and I'm calling you out for that one. Da fuck man.

Sene throwed me under the bus and started retroactively infracting me for sarcasm after I said explicitly that I was done discussing things with people who wouldn't listen as a way to further harass me on an issue I had explicitely dropped (or in order to have grounds to ban me, as stated by the person who leaked info tabout Curse and other mod lounge affairs). He then proceeded to ban me as planed and even took the time to cryptically say in SYM that I was banned for malicious actions against the website (implying I haxxed or something worse) as a post-mortem character assassination.

I'm sorry for not being inclined to show the other face. After all my name is Scumbag, not Jesus

Telling that the staff kept his composture and only reacted poorly to the rabid-dog approach is farcical. Even extremeicon wasn't so morally
corrupt during the last gutter closure debacle because he at least didn't took measures for kicking the dogs in the balls so many times that they started foaming in the mouth.

rianalnn
lapdog
Sene
possibly (likely) Nai

These are all current and past staff of MTGS that have been morally corrupt beyond any belief. They went so far as to make people regret the extremeicon times because at least extremeicon was not taking the time to permanently harass and persecute people affiliated with a subforum of MTGS, beyond the point of simply shutting it down.

The problem has almost routinely been one of communication. Either it's poor communication in what is actually going on or how what is going on is communicated (best example: Nai and the Curse sale), or it's lack of communication (myriad threads asking questions of or about the mod team, its decisions, or for something that are met with either ignored or non-answers to questions).

Between poor communication skills and many of these poorly communicated discussions appearing to be lies based on the way they were communicated, having apparent lies or complete lack of communication handed to you, and then being yelled at for being irate when either a wrong or no answer is given, makes one feel like they're being ignored or mishandled.

I get that we should in a perfect world have unlimited patience, and that the mod team members that matter don't have unlimited time to comb through posts and find questions being asked
between extraneous or inflammatory comments (as was the mix in the Pegging Chamber discussions and as is cropping up here), but given how drawn out or absent of any apparent involvement many of these discussions were, the patience and time factor are both incredibly strained and it's hard to give benefit of the doubt without losing faith in patience or lack of time.

That last paragraph is a load of it Azrael. It's pretty low of you to put it
the way you just did. I thought this thread was about Boubs? If not, I'm not done here.

I've made it plain from the start that I thought the "rabid dog" approach was a huge mistake, although an understandable one. You didn't start the fight - but the way you handled the persecution is what has led to alienating the moderate forces on staff who would have eventually counter-balanced the opposition and come out on top, just as they did before.

Anyone remember when Scumbag laid into Sene in the pegging chamber? Up until that point, Sene was going to the mat to fight the decision for the gutter. But when the gutter turned around and planted a knife in his back, that tune changed pretty quick. At this point, you've systematically done the same thing to people who would otherwise have been willing to back you and have a meaningful dialogue.

So yes, harsh words, but the gutter has made and is continuing to make some very dumb, very emotional moves.

Sure, this is about
Boubs. And he's keeping an open mind. But he's listening to both the staff and the gutter to get his information. So if you want to convince him - you're probably going to need the iridium to sit down at the table and soften their position.

Oh right, we stabbed him in the back. Great point Azrael

And then Ive systematically stabbed people in the back.

What a crock dude.

When's the
last time any of you guys has had an open mind about the admin team?

Viper and Rian dropped out of the picture not long after the gutter-debacle. Those were the major forces behind that decision. None of the people who are there now, would have supported the closure.

Why do you think they're supporting it now?

Are you fucking kidding me Az? Weve attempted to have an open mind everytime there is a new admin. We had an open mind with mikeyg, wprked pretty well. We had an open mind with Yukora, worked fucking great. An open mind with you, was perfect. We continued to have an open mond with every admin up until ER's promotion, Ill give ypu that one. But the rest? We didnt just jump them like a pack of dogs, what the fuck are you smoking? With each single one of them it wasnt until we met back alley mutterings, double speak, politics, lies, and cover ups, as well as a refusal to do anything other than blow smoke up our asseses in discussions why they stalled us for who knows
what reason.

The fact that you just decided that were in our situation for failure to give new admins a chance is fucking baffling Az. Are you so caught up in being this large, looming, omnipresent fix all political advisor that you lost site of how lng weve been tryong to have discussins (lol peggimg chamber) and how many times WE were given the run around?

Im not championing our innocence, but youre full of shit with that last comment, and I'm calling you out for that one. Da fuck man.

Yeah, you've been trying to reach out and have discussions for a long time. But as a group, you've also been repeatedly clashing with the staff, and trashing the people who are trying to help you:

I really have no thoughts anymore. I tried and from what I can tell I am being called a liar and incompetent I suspect part of the reason I didn't hear back from Hannes was because of the sale, but I still don't know. And now that we have an active owner
it's really up to them.

I would still like to see the posts sent over to ( N_S ) and have the Salvation Gutter archived away and replaced with a link to MTGC. Based on the misinformation I am seeing on the other site though, I am done making any effort on this. You guys are on your own.

You can't attack the Senes and the Galspanics on staff who are most sympathetic to you, the ones who are counter-balancing the anti-gutter lobbyists, and expect those same people to keep on fighting for you. It's just not realistic, Kpaca.

The gutter has alienated the people on staff who would have been its allies. Those people haven't been much good to the gutter throughout all this, they've been counter-balanced by lower staff, but I don't think the balance of power really shifted until Gals took over. But by this point, the gutter has burned so many bridges that it really won't matter unless there's a major change in approach.

The problem has almost routinely been one of communication. Either it's poor communication in what is actually going on or how what is going on is communicated (best example: Nai and the Curse sale), or it's lack of communication (myriad threads asking questions of or about the mod team, its decisions, or for something that are met with either ignored or non-answers to questions).

Between poor communication skills and many of these poorly communicated discussions appearing to be lies based on the way they were communicated, having apparent lies or complete lack of communication handed to you, and then being yelled at for being irate when either a wrong or no answer is given, makes one feel like they're being ignored or mishandled.

I get that we should
in a perfect world have unlimited patience, and that the mod team members that matter don't have unlimited time to comb through posts and find questions being asked between extraneous or inflammatory comments (as was the mix in the Pegging Chamber discussions and as is cropping up here), but given how drawn out or absent of any apparent involvement many of these discussions were, the patience and time factor are both incredibly strained and it's hard to give benefit of the doubt without losing faith in patience or lack of time.

That's a bingo.

Azrael, during the gutter-staff tolling discussions, Kijin was suspended for minor spats with Harkius, kpaca was suspended for similar BS reasons, and then I was insta-suspended (I was at 0 infractions) for reposting a joke that kpaca told me in AIM in the gutter. The staff was so morally corrupt that they couldn't even admit their mistake (instead telling BS like it is possible posting on behalf someone without their consent). This was a intentional tactic to have us on the edge during these "negotiations" (like stalling with some other unrelated issue when reasonable agreement was in danger to be reached -at the time the Curse deal was not yet finalized- as a way to keep stalling and lying to us, making us believe there was something yet to be saved. Also lol at kpaca snitching himself for thanking a post only to be put on probation with Kijin (according to Nai: this will be no big deal, in 3 months top we stripe
this probation off your records, work with us guys ), giving the perfect excuse for the final bans.

In the end they just decided that they would ban the 3 guttermods and call it a day, problem solved! I guess it may suck a little bit that we managed to pull a site and post criticism of these morally corrupt decisions without fear of being suspended, but hey! you cannot make scrambled eggs without actually breaking the eggs I guess

It was the Leipzig trials all around. reductio ad-hitlerum aside, this epic quote from Georgi Dimitrov still applies fairly well to the defense of our "rabid dog" approach:

"Herr President, if you were a man as innocent as myself and you have passed seven months in prison, five of them in chains night and day, you would understand it if one perhaps becomes a little strained."

Yeah, you've been trying to reach out and have discussions for a long time. But as a group, you've also been repeatedly clashing with the staff, and trashing the people who are trying to help you:

I really have no thoughts anymore. I tried and from what I can tell I am being called a liar and incompetent I suspect part of the reason I didn't hear back from Hannes was because of the sale, but I still don't know. And now that we have an active owner it's really up to them.

I would still like to see the posts sent over to ( N_S ) and have the Salvation Gutter archived away and replaced with a link to MTGC. Based on the misinformation I am seeing on the other site though, I am done making any effort on this. You
guys are on your own.

You can't attack the Senes and the Galspanics on staff who are most sympathetic to you, the ones who are counter-balancing the anti-gutter lobbyists, and expect those same people to keep on fighting for you. It's just not realistic, Kpaca.

The gutter has alienated the people on staff who would have been its allies. Those people haven't been much good to the gutter throughout all this, they've been counter-balanced by lower staff, but I don't think the balance of power really shifted until Gals took over. But by this point, the gutter has burned so many bridges that it really won't matter unless there's a major change in approach.

The issue with the above of what you're saying is that for whatever misinformation, etc, that was alluded to, as well as whatever bridges we've burned by lashing out, the people in question have done 0 job to quell, respond to, or clarify the misinformation we've had, or if there was clarity, it was only far
after the fact (ex. Nai's G_R chat), which usually just makes the situation look even worse, particularly given the fact that it took months and bannings before such information comes to light.

I'll use an example from my own suspension appeal. One of the last posts I made in the thread had a series of questions (four, I believe) that outlined what I didn't understand about my last infraction and asked the moderator team to explain their thought process to me, while explaining to them my own. This came from long stretches of zero contact, posting, or acknowledgement, and a small spurt of straight-up ire. You've said it yourself: people want to feel like they're being listened to and can lash out when you make them feel the opposite. To the date of my ban, no one responded to my last post in that thread that outlined what I felt I wasn't getting in the staff's response to me/by my infraction being upheld.

There are many moments that have come up in the very long, very drawn-out dialogs we've had
with the staff that are similar to that. Some are more tempered than others, but most of them outline a clear set a questions we have of the staff about it and its decision making, and usually is peppered with some idea of our outlook and perspective.

We've also had non-zero answers to these things and it's not 24-7 bad times, I won't ignore those, but there are more and more memorable times when we haven't been addressed, patience ran thin before running out, and "bridges got burned" as you put it.

there's a lot of noise from both parties and what feels like very little signal from the other end is my summary statement of what drove this from a dialog to conflict.

Az, how the fuck did I alienate Sene? By letting him ban?

Like this is the guy trying so hard to issue me infractions he issued me a profile warning for a suspension I never had because someone alluded to a gutter suspension of mine from two years earlier. He gleefully issued a missing profile infraction without a hint of research or follow through. This was before I had even had hardly any reactions with the guy.

This is why your comments are so warped and ridiculous Az. Clearly we werent working hard enough with the people working against us.

You can't attack the Senes and the Galspanics on staff who are most sympathetic to you, the ones who are counter-balancing the anti-gutter lobbyists, and expect those same people to keep on fighting for you. It's just not realistic, Kpaca.

The gutter has alienated the people on staff who would have been its allies. Those people haven't been much good to the gutter throughout all this, they've been counter-balanced by lower staff, but I don't think the balance of power really shifted until Gals took over. But by this point, the gutter has burned so many bridges that it really won't matter unless there's a major change in approach.

I know this has nothing to do with me really, but I have to state that this comment here from AZ is pretty far off base. I have to ask you, how does anyone banned from MTGS know this is a true statement, other then the fact that you've said so. They don't
have access to mod lounge conversations and all they've seen from Gals is a sympathetic voice that failed to convey his authority over those lower level staff members that continuously stifled any reasonable conversation about reinstating them into the fold.

These member were forced to take your word for it, only they have grown tired of the same old rhetoric and run-around that has come out of it. "While we believe that there was some wrong doing in your suspension/banning, the continued belief by some that you endangered the face of MTGS by your actions means that your banning must remain in tact."

In the meantime, the CoC that was hailed so highly and forced upon the moderation has been trampled on by every mod and Admin on that site since this whole debacle started.

You HAVE GOT to understand the level of aggravation that is being experienced by former members of that site for not getting any concrete answers from the people in charge for sooooo long!

Sorry for the interruption...
but AZ...your diplomacy is really taxing at times.

Also, since we are discussing about mending bridges, Az how do you comment the last debacle of having Galspanic post that he wants to settle the zombie gutter matters, but that he is wary of posting here because we are big bad meanies, then we decid to register MTGCommunity there and immediately PM the 4admins requesting gutter-staff pegging chamber access to discuss there, then having Galspanic reply that they were going to discuss the issue and would get back to us, then logging again to find the account banned without further notice?

Sounds legit right?