Dies to Removal

Well done Raida!

@Keftenk and Raida

GJ guys! Really glad we all get some success with this deck

How did you all find offcolor scrylands?
Did you miss anything / would change anything in this deck?

IMO, the version I ran didn't run 2 MB Dreadbore, I think I missed that. I also missed the 2nd Temple of Silence. I'll definitely be switching Triumph out. I also ran a version with FotF in the SB, I don't know if I really like that. One thing I was deeply terrified from my games yesterday was Mono Red Devotion. I did end up winning, but...how do we even play against that deck? It's so hard once BTE's start dropping to keep up or going up against Reckoners...

If you can believe it, I hated seeing 2 Chandra's ;v Might have just been a bad moment. Honestly, I seriously played like shit yesterday I can't believe I even came away with a 5-2 record in an event like that.

Ok so I did the Premier Event last night with this list

[deck=MDU's Dos Packros]Lands 24
3 Mutavault
4 Swamp
7 Mountain
4 Blood Crypt
4 Rakdos Guildgate
1 Temple of Silence
1 Temple of Triumph

Creatures 22
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Pack Rat
4 Spike Jester
4 Chandra's Phoenix
3 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
3 Stormbreath Dragon

Others 14
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
2 Ultimate Price
2 Dreadbore
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Sideboard 15
2 Toil/Trouble
2 Erebos, God of the Dead
3 Doom Blade
1 Dreadbore
1 Whip of Erebos
3 Mizzium Mortars
3 Dark Betrayal[/deck]

It was my first PE and no harder than a DE as far as opp play skill goes. I wasn't going to put these up as I went 3-4 in the end which is certainly less than stellar (though 1 more win would have seen me almost even on the event) but feedback is the best way to learn so here you go Looking back if I had played a better in R1 and had a little more luck in R6 it would have been very different but it's those little things that seperate 5-2 from 3-4! Anyway here are the replays, feedback MOST welcome'cos it took me ages to do this

PE6488820 R1 G1 Vs MonoR
PE6488820 R1 G2 Vs MonoR
PE6488820 R2 G1 Vs MonoB
PE6488820 R2 G2 Vs MonoB
PE6488820 R3 G1 Vs GW
PE6488820 R3 G2 Vs GW
PE6488820 R4 G1 Vs MonoU
PE6488820 R4 G2 Vs MonoU
PE6488820 R5 G1 Vs MonoB
PE6488820 R5 G2 Vs MonoB
PE6488820 R6 G1 Vs MonoB
PE6488820 R6 G2 Vs MonoB
PE6488820 R6 G3 Vs MonoB
PE6488820 R7 G1 Vs EsperMidRange
PE6488820 R7 G2 Vs
EsperMidRange
PE6488820 R7 G3 Vs EsperMidRange

Common lines:
Pact Rat + 3 mana open + vaults = attack then create rat for combat tricks
Pack Rat + 3 mana open + removal in hand vs midrange = attack threaten combat tricks, end of turn - see if he casts anything worth killing if not create rat
Pact Rat + 3 Mana open vs removal heavy deck = EoT rats, can depend on board state

Thanks, MDU. My main questions were actually more basic, something like

1. You're on the play against MonoB with Pack Rat being your only 2 drop. You always play it or keep it, hoping for more value later?
2. You have a couple of good cards, such as Exava or Stormbreath - do you keep discarding them to keep the Rats flowing...? (pardon the expression )

Sorry if these are dumb, I haven't played with the card much admittedly.

In regards to '
superior':
Both Rw and RB have S+W

RW is better vs Black (exile, assembles) vs UW (white removal, protection (LI and Charm)) vs BG (exile is stronger vs regen and whip.decks) vs Small Aggro (1cc removal)
RB is better vs Esper (more haste) vs Gx (Devotion) vs Rx (Devotion) and Ux (Devotion)

Both decks can beat everything but the scales just tip slightly etc: I haven't lose to Ux Devotion for a few weeks now with Rw.

the main difference seems to me that RB has a 2 drop with an enormous late game value (Pack Rat) and a hasty 4 drop with a lot of power (Exava), both of which RW lacks. The main disadvantage is the lack of Scrylands, which makes the RW version very consistent (a few of the posts here suggest flood/screw is actually this decks biggest enemy). Once the new temple hits, this deck is probably just But I should stop speculating

FUck yea guys!!!! Awesome job Raida and Keft

@ Dauntless, it really depends with Pack Rat turn 2. Lot depends on your hand which means you have 0 Cackler, 0 Jester and some number of Pack Rat. This would then assume you have high end in your hand, Exava, Dragon, Chandra. In which case, play the Rat and have another threat live later.

Once you go in on the rat, you go ALL IN. I had a early problem of playing Rat, then just playing my normal curve. Just gotta let it go....let the pack rats flow....once you get 3 rats and Mutavault out, no card is better than another Rat.


@Everyone - this is pretty obvious but we got people asking for help in here so I just want to remind anyone new to the deck or Pack Rat. You can activate Mutavault with just itself to make it a Rat.

T2- Rat
T3- Make Rat
T4- Use 3 mana to make Rat, use your mutavault to activae itself and now you have 2 4/4 rats swinging in for 8 dmg on turn 4...

So if you play a T2 rat, how do you prioritize what to pitch to it? I assume Phoenix would be numero uno since you can get it back, and cackler since it's immediately met and soon outclassed by another rat. How about a dragon since it's far away from casting? Exava?

I'm thinking you would want to hold on to jester in case your rats start getting nuked, you can still threaten a hunk of damage for near the same mana you used to cast rat, at least for a turn or two.

Yea, I;ll pitch Dragon unless I have too many lands or a 1 or 2 drop to pitch.

Right on. Are you guys running into a lot of Devour Flesh? Any point in playing that card in this deck?

During the tourney yesterday, the only reason I ever threw out a rat turn 2 was as a removal target.

Almost every deck in the game right now runs some removal or burn, so throwing a rat out turn 2 and expecting it to live long enough to genate tokens is unlikely unless it's white weenie or something like that.

I like it better as just a late-game option. Early game either pressure or pressure/removal, and then drop rat once either all their removal is gone, or you've spent the rest of your stuff, but have enou mana to threaten a token in response to any shenanigans.

I'm still working on the writeup, but playing it like that won me a top8 game vs black-devo splash white, by letting me just flat-out race a blood baron, without even having an erebos to stop his lifegain, or a whip to have my own.

I'd easily play it turn 2 vs Mono Blue or Mono Red Devo - They dont run much removal at all. If they do, they are giving up board presence to kill pack rat.

During the tourney yesterday, the only reason I ever threw out a rat turn 2 was as a removal target.

Almost every deck in the game right now runs some removal or burn, so throwing a rat out turn 2 and expecting it to live long enough to genate tokens is unlikely unless it's white weenie or something like that.

I like it better as just a late-game option. Early game either pressure or pressure/removal, and then drop rat once either all their removal is gone, or you've spent the rest of your stuff, but have enou mana to threaten a token in response to any shenanigans.

I'm still working on the writeup, but playing it like that won me a top8 game vs black-devo splash white, by letting me just flat-out race a blood baron, without even having an erebos to
stop his lifegain, or a whip to have my own.

QFT. Rat is a mid to late game option in todays removal heavy meta and has additional value through Phoenix recursion. A foursome has it in the starting hand 50% of the time cast with the role of bait as Raida says, but else dead weight.

I´m testing a singleton Tymaret and 3 instead of 4 rats just for this reason. Rat can show T3+ when I know whether it´s probable to go long or not. Tymaret can jump straight into the hand as response to removal or transform any guy you have in play to a rat. In addition to his extra reach. More synergy and combat trickery.

Looking forward to the writeup!

That is an interesting idea MattT, playing this 1off Tymaret gives you some other cool options.

Alright, tournament writeup, yay!
My decklist is pretty much the same as normal, but I'll throw it up for looking at anyway.

[deck]
Creatures 22
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Pack Rat
4 Spike Jester
4 Chandra's Phoenix
3 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
3 Stormbreath Dragon

Burn 8
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet

Kill 4
2 Ultimate Price
2 Dreadbore

Thighs 2
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Lands 24
3 Mutavault
4 Blood Crypt
4 Rakdos Guildgate
1 Temple of Silence
1 Temple of Triumph
7 Mountain
4 Swamp

Sideboard 15
2 Toil/Trouble
2 Erebos, God of the Dead
3 Doom Blade
1 Dreadbore
1 Whip of Erebos
3 Mizzium Mortars
3 Dark Betrayal[/deck]


Alright, time for game reports.

Match 1 vs Joe with mono-red RDW. Not really boss sligh, not really devotion.
Game 1 he was stuck on 1 land, so it wasn't really a game.
- SB: -4 Cackler, -4 Jester, +3 Doom Blade, +1 Dreadbore, +1 Whip, +3 Mortars
Game 2 was more of a
game. We both went aggro out the gate, and then started matching removal for removal. The turning point though, was when I landed my whip. Life totals tell the rest of the story. It was (him/me) 8/10, ended at 0/27...
1-0 (2-0)

Match 2 was vs Adrian with Dimir Control. (List from the GP apparently).
Game 1 I landed a turn 1 cackler, and he just was never able to remove both it and all the other stuff I played. He played a master at one point, but I had ultimate price.
- Sb: I wasn't quite sure what he was, but had seen master, so was confused. -3 dragon, -2 magma jet, +2 Toil//Trouble, +1 Dreadbore, +1 Erebos, +2 Doomblade. (I was flustered, so accidently ran 61 cards)
Game 2 and 3 went pretty much the same way. He just killed anything and everything I played, and countered anything I tried to. I think mulliganing to a cackler is proly key here. It also didn't help that game three I never saw any black.
1-1 (1-2)

Match 3 was vs Blandon with U/W control.
Game 1 I curved out hard and he just
melted.
- Sb: -4 Pack Rat, -2 Ultimate Price, +2 Erebos, +2 Toil//Trouble, +2 Doomblade.
Game 2 was second verse, same as the first. He melted and the whole match was done in about 10 or 15 minutes.
2-1 (2-0)

Match 4 was vs Logan with U/W control.
Game 1 I got stuck with only one red, and just couldn't do much at the beginning. By the time I got it, he was setup with counters and control, and then I got flooded.
- Sb: -4 Pack Rat, -2 Ultimate Price, +2 Erebos, +2 Toil//Trouble, +1 Whip , +1 Dreadbore. I changed it up here from the last game, because the doom blades never got used much. He just didn't have creatures that it was relevant against. The whip helps late game because of recursion, and the 3rd dreadbore kills jaces.
Game 2 I just curved out and he couldn't do a thing.
Game 3, I started with a good curve, but he managed to get on top of it for a bit, but I managed to land an erebos while he was tapped out, and he was completely screwed.
3-1 (2-1)

Match 5 was vs our own Purp with
PyroSkies ;-; The winner of this could ID into the top8, the loser had to win their next match and pray to the god of tiebreakers.
Game 1 he got the dieroll, but I didn't have any option but to play beatdown anyway, due to the deck styles. I managed to keep 1 step ahead of his removal though, and barely won it with 6 life left.
-Sb: -2 Ultimate Price, +1 Whip, +1 Dreadbore. Here I decided that I still had to be the beatdown. Pyroskies runs more control then us, so playing that against them wouldn't work down, so I had to trust in the old 'who's the beatdown' article.
Game 2 I was slower out the gate, and then drew a few too many lands to keep up. Purp had the removal and the scry/consistency to get it fairly easily.
Game 3 was a lot more tense. I got my curve rolling, but he had his removal rolling, so it was still about even. I then topdecked my singleton whip and dropped it. That pretty much ended it. He never drew one of the skullcrack he put in in case of it, and the lifegain and recursion from
the whip just let me keep swinging with removed exavas and dragons.
4-1 (2-1)

Match 6 I ID'd into the top 8!
Purp won his next match, and was in the top 8 too, so I didn't have to feel too bad, and he didn't have to hurt me

The top8 match was vs Vince with Black Devo, splash white. (B/w devo)
Match 1 I curved really well, and he was stuck on 3 lands, so his removal wasn't able to keep going. I had an ultimate price and mortars in hand though, so I was in good shape.
- Sb: -3 Dragons, -2 Ultimate Price, -2 Jet, +2 Erebos, +2 Mortars, +3 Dark Betrayal
Match 2 was a long one. He managed to get his removal rolling, and ripped both an erebos and a mortars out of my hand. I had scryed away the second erebos before that, since I already had one in hand. He played a baron, but I had jetted into my second mortar, and took it out. He then dropped another baron, though. Here is where the race began.
The turn after he
played it, I wasn't quite sure what to do, but I decided that since he'd spent so much removal, I was gonna pack rat. I threw down a rat, leaving my 3 mana open to have a token threatened. On his turn he tried to kill it, so I token'd, but he didn't have removal for that one. From there I went on the packrat plan, and despite him having a live blood baron, and started to race. Te game ended with me at 2, and him dead.
(2-0)

At this point, we were into the top 4. The prize payout was 150/50/25/25, so we all just decided to split, since that $62.50 was better then even what second would have got. We also all wanted a different one of the custom playmats, so that wasn't an issue either. From there we played for the trophy.

Top 4 match was against Daniel with Esper Control. (I THINK this is who beat Purp in the top8)
Game 1 I curved out really well, but he managed to get a jace online when he was at 10. I decided to focus on his life instead of the jace because I had a jet, strike, and a chandra in
hand. I focussed on him, but he managed to get an elspeth up, but the next turn when he was at 7, I drew a second strike and then chandra +1'd and double striked him for the win.
- Sb: -4 Pack Rat, -2 Ultimate Price, +2 Erebos, +2 Toil//Touble, +1 Dreadbore, +1 Whip. I went with the plan from match 4, since it worked better then the other plan.
Game 2 I blitzed him, and he just could not withstand it.
(2-0)

Finals was vs James with Esper Midrange.
Game 1 he got stuck on 1 white for the early part, and I just aggro'd him to death.
-Sb: -4 Cackler, -4 Pack Rat, +1 Erebos, +2 Toil//Trouble, +1 Whip, +3 Mortars, +1 Dreadbore. I took out the cacklers since this esper build aggros, so I could bring in the mortars to help remove things. I only brought in 1 erebos because they don't lifegain as hard.
Game 2 was really anticlimactic as he was stuck on 2 land and I just landed threat after threat. My early stuff he managed to remove and what little creatures he played I got rid of too. But when I went
Exava into Chandra with burn in hand, he was out of responses, and extended the handshake.

SWEET!!!

Nice job!

Also, thoughts after the tourney: The main 60 is damn near perfect. The only changes I'd want to make would be minor ones in the sideboard.

I want a second whip. I know that it's probably not needed, but that coming in out the side is so huge. It won me the match vs Purp, and small aggro is one of the only problematic things, which it does work against.

I have no clue what to take out, though... Like I've said before, toil//trouble was never amazing. I used it once vs control, in the finals match, just to threaten him for lethal before I attacked or cast the lightning strike in my hand, but it can lead to that last bit of damage, which I like in theory.

Thoughts on what might be cuttable?



Oh, and per an earlier discussion, I don't think we need rakdos charm yet. Right now our other sideboard options are better. I call it an option for the future, but I don't think it's needed quite yet.



Edit:
Funny last thought. I think that the most dangerous point for this deck in a tournament is the first few rounds, where the possibility of getting paired against a random deck is higher. Once we get high enough and start facing more of the 'top' decks, the list makes fools of them.

[quote="[url=viewtopic.php?p=168895#p168895]I think that the most dangerous point for this deck in a tournament is the first few rounds, where the possibility of getting paired against a random deck is higher. Once we get high enough and start facing more of the 'top' decks, the list makes fools of them.[/quote]

You're learning young padawan. In a rock paper scissors format with rock being the best deck, what deck do you play? Scissors, because if you want to win the tournament, you want to beat all the paper in the top 8. Scissors is the new rock.

Welcome to tournament magic.

@Everyone playing this deck- How many games has Chandra REALLY won for you? I know she comes down and you maybe get a couple +1 out of her.... I was thinking of making it 2 Whips in the MB instead of the 2 chandra.

Chandra has won me a lot of games. She's amazing here because this deck takes advantage of all of her features.
Creatures are our primary form of damage so the falter is amazing, the card advantage is always awesome, and we have strikes and jets so the ultimate still goes off.

The whip is better against other aggro decks, but I don't think it's enough to md it over chandra. She's just so powerful.

Edit: and it feels so good to throw phoenix to the rats, and use chandra to recur her e.e

I'd say whip is better G1 verse a majority of decks. I think it's easy to say "chandra has won me a lot of games" because games you played her you won, but chances are if the board state was one that you could comfortably cast her you are probably already in the lead. I've been playing decks with Chandra for the past 3 months, she has only TRUELY won me about 6 games.

R1 G1: Not much you can do vs 2 reckoners.
R1 G2: Not that this matters, but I might of played the scryland first and buried the phoenix. Your hand seemed really slow and begged for more removal.

R2 G1: That guy was probably so mad.
R2 G2: Not sure what he kept there, but your opening seemed like a risky keep.

R3 G1: If I was him I would have traded fleecemane for jester from the get go.
R3 G2: Nicely played

R4 G1: He got the nuts!
R4 G2: I probably would of held the Dreadbore for a potential nightveil spectre. You had no way of knowing a mortars was on the top of your deck, but
NVS destroys our deck. I think by casting pheonix you should of just chump blocked, you also had mutavault and plenty of land so chumping wierd with muta was a possibility. Ideally we don't mind him pumping his Weird because it prevents him from building board presence. I think I have just always played the Mono U matchup with the mindset "I have an answer to NVS in my opener, I am only going to use it on NVS" You also drew poorly which is not your fault.

R5 G1: I might of taken a diff line lof play. I would of kept the mountain on top from the scry 2, guaranteeing yourself the chance to cast exava or two removals per turn/EoT. I would of then Dreadbored his demon on your turn, youd would now be able to get in for 4 and have 2 mana up for when he whips it back. YOu can then UP it, and he still is able to devour flesh it but I think this would of set you up better. Doesn't matter because you won, but I think this is the line I would of taken.
R5 G2: Talk about nut draw....

R6 G1: Double
thoughtseize into double connections.... not much you can do here
R6 G2: His hand was terrible. Smart play saccing phoenix on his turn knowing you could recur next main phase.
R6 G3: You waited until he attacked to UP his Demon, I would of maybe just killed it on your turn so he couldn't devour flesh it (first thing I notice, still watching the video so not sure how it affects the outcome). When he attacks with muta, I probably just try to chump block with your vault and go for the trade, if he has cure he has cure (which he did) Then you can just blame the loss on the terrible draws you had... man a pack rat would of been nice!

R7 G1: Nuts. Did you know he was esper midrange at this point? Curious how you sideboarded (if you brought in dark betrayal or mortars or whip)
R7 G2: ghost daddy
R7 G3: Curious as to why Toil//trouble was in? (Hah guess it payed off! But had it not been in your opener and drawn in the late game...)

@ Purp -MASSIVE THANKS for the feedback I'll go over it when I've a minute

Pedros has been published: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck_sear ... %2F23%2F13

lol nice

too many good results, our deck might be spoiled.

Ok guys, we need to work a little bit for PTQs this weekend (I have a lot of stuff to do for my school, cant spend tons of time playing right now).

Most says 60 is perfect, I agree but need to think about manabase (Help us Zeman, you said you might do it for us. We need you!)

3 Mutavaults
4 Rakdos's Guildgates
4 Blood Crypt

How many mountains/swamps? Do we play scry lands? If we play scrylands we play split or 1 of the type? (small change but might be crucial, as for example we might play only 8 untapped black sources in some versions!)

And for sb:

What 8 cards do we play for agro matchups? Do we need 8 slots? (for example MDU says it is wise to keep cacklers for small agro or jesters for medium agro to trade early and drop dragons/exavas, I am against it but
would like to hear opinions)

In my testing it seems we need around 6 slots vs UW/Esper/UWR control. Dont know if it was my bad luck, but I faced UWR twice, guys that beat me didnt finish good so I am not concerned right now to change my sb just for them). Currently we have toils, ereboses, whip, more dreadbores or mortars.

as for mono black I think I sb to much. What do you guys take out and for what? Can we afford to cut magmajets?

@ Purp - feedback on your feedback - thanks!

---

R1 G1: Not much you can do vs 2 reckoners.
R1 G2: Not that this matters, but I might of played the scryland first and buried the phoenix. Your hand seemed really slow and begged for more removal.

Quite possibly, though if I had killed the FFS I could have chumped with the Phoenix, recurred it and bought myself time

R2 G1: That guy was probably so mad.
R2 G2: Not sure what he kept there, but your opening seemed like a risky keep.

Agreed but I didn't want to go to 5 so I just took the chance I'd draw ok and lucked out this time

R3 G1: If I was him I would
have traded fleecemane for jester from the get go.
R3 G2: Nicely played

Agreed, I expected him too. Thank you

R4 G1: He got the nuts!
R4 G2: I probably would of held the Dreadbore for a potential nightveil spectre. You had no way of knowing a mortars was on the top of your deck, but NVS destroys our deck. I think by casting pheonix you should of just chump blocked, you also had mutavault and plenty of land so chumping wierd with muta was a possibility. Ideally we don't mind him pumping his Weird because it prevents him from building board presence. I think I have just always played the Mono U matchup with the mindset "I have an answer to NVS in my opener, I am only going to use it on NVS" You also drew poorly which is not your fault.

You are correct. In my panic to keep his board presence low I rushed to kill the Weird. I have a tendency to '
stick to the plan' without evaluating the current situation - more creativity and flexibility needed

R5 G1: I might of taken a diff line lof play. I would of kept the mountain on top from the scry 2, guaranteeing yourself the chance to cast exava or two removals per turn/EoT. I would of then Dreadbored his demon on your turn, youd would now be able to get in for 4 and have 2 mana up for when he whips it back. YOu can then UP it, and he still is able to devour flesh it but I think this would of set you up better. Doesn't matter because you won, but I think this is the line I would of taken.
R5 G2: Talk about nut draw....

Again you are correct - with 2 removal and Exava I can't explain why I thought the 4th land was bad and what I wanted that was a better draw. Yeah, he was really unhappy about the Whip!

R6 G1: Double thoughtseize into double
connections.... not much you can do here
R6 G2: His hand was terrible. Smart play saccing phoenix on his turn knowing you could recur next main phase.
R6 G3: You waited until he attacked to UP his Demon, I would of maybe just killed it on your turn so he couldn't devour flesh it (first thing I notice, still watching the video so not sure how it affects the outcome). When he attacks with muta, I probably just try to chump block with your vault and go for the trade, if he has cure he has cure (which he did) Then you can just blame the loss on the terrible draws you had... man a pack rat would of been nice!

Good point about the Demon. I was a bit tilted after his triple Dark Betrayal opener and the flood was truly horrible. Even watching it back was painful!

R7 G1: Nuts. Did you know he was esper midrange at this point? Curious how you sideboarded (if you
brought in dark betrayal or mortars or whip)
R7 G2: ghost daddy
R7 G3: Curious as to why Toil//trouble was in? (Hah guess it payed off! But had it not been in your opener and drawn in the late game...)

Embarrassingly no, I thought he was a janky Esper - duh! Toil was a 'I'm tilting panic SB choice as I wasn't sure how to play against him. No excuses just not thinking clearly - it's the major flaw in my play.

Once again MASSIVE THANKS for the feedback, it's really invaluable

I'm locked into R/w devotion at this point, but I'm likely not changing my list till next set comes out so I can start testing this deck out and hopefully give hlepful input soon.

How's the matchup against Mono Green Devo? What's the game plan for that deck?

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles ... rld-eater/

I've not played the match but I strongly suspect it goes something like - G1 Kill anything relevant with spot removal, bring in more spot removal for G2, rinse and repeat

lol nice

too many good results, our deck might be spoiled.

Ok guys, we need to work a little bit for PTQs this weekend (I have a lot of stuff to do for my school, cant spend tons of time playing right now).

Most says 60 is perfect, I agree but need to think about manabase (Help us Zeman, you said you might do it for us. We need you!)

3 Mutavaults
4 Rakdos's Guildgates
4 Blood Crypt

How many mountains/swamps? Do we play scry lands? If we play scrylands we play split or 1 of the type? (small change but might be crucial, as for example we might play only 8 untapped black sources in some versions!)

Alex Shearer at CFB is the master of tools for this. [url=http&
#58;//www.channelfireball.com/home/in-develop ... dern-mana/]Here[/url] (in the article which is worth the read) is his latest Excel sheet you can use to calculate your manabase. Just imagine Gates are Scrylands or add in them yourself.

Purp asks a very good question about Chandra vs Whip. Is it better with the extra draw and Falter or the Lifegain plus animation? The gut feeling is that Chandra offers a psychological advantage. Planeswalkers let run takes over the match and Chandra is tougher than most to calculate. Thus is most peoples reaction to focus on her. I mean that she does 2 things; offers what is said on her card and secondly as a diversion. Whip offers exactly the same every time and can be assessed much easier. That´s good if it acts as a force multiplier. I.e. there are stuff on the board or in the graveyard that will impact. Otoh can it be irrelevant. As such it´s easier to see when Whip would offer something substantial, but harder to do the same with
Chandra. Thus is it harder to remember when Chandra won me a match and simpler with Whip. Which is better? Hard to say

Things to say Chandra is awsome against all small agro decks. I won so many games after putting chandra killing X/1, and then controling the board this way. Or attacking into pack rats to force trade and kill the last. It also offers phoenix recurency plus card advantage vs control.

Thing is Chandra imo is better game 1, as both abilities are good vs certain decks, even +1 is good vs green as it kills elf or allows to swing into some bigger monster. It also extends your life as you mentioned, as everyone is trying to kill them - even control attacks with mutavaults, so you can then play around counterspells.

Whip is also amazing, but mostly against agro and devotion strategies. It is also fine against black (can easily not die to gray merchants)

BTW Thanks for manabase article, I will read it now

Hmm, any thoughts been given to Lifebane Zombies? I tried out the Xathrid changes and they slowed the deck down just a tad too much. Even if they did make it almost impervious to removal. (Thrill-Kill Assassins are actually pretty awesome and maybe worth putting in over Jesters as they dodge a lot of removal that jesters just die to).

Honestly, the thing that makes Spike Jester so good is the haste. Dropping a cackler one turn one and him on turn two makes for 5 damage then and there, which is awesome for our gameplan.

Te thing both lifebane and thrill-kill lack is that haste. Removal is really popular in the current metagame, so having your threats be able to do something before getting removed is very important. That haste makes them a turn more efficient, which can add up hugely over the course of the match.


Mkr specifically, lifebane isn't really a contender, because he's a 3-drop no-haste with the same stats as our hastey 2-drop. The hand disruption is fun, but doesn't wuite hit enough to make up for the downsides. We are an aggro deck, if we try to out-control the control, we lose.

Thrill-kill is nice but she suffers from no haste, and the stats aren't quite all there. By turn three when she'd attack, most decks will have something
to remove her. She might survive magma jet and shock while jester doesn't, but she also dies to ultimate price and last breath, both of which see massive play, more then shock and jet sadly...


The benefits jsut aren't there for either card.

Just wondering if anyone here has either heard of Lowlandwizards on MTGO, or is said player?

Here is their list if anyone is interested:

http://mtgo-stats.com/decks/87411

Quite similar to Pedro's list, with a few differences in the SB. By the way Pedro, congrats on the first place finish on the 26th.

Yeah, that list's mb 60 is the exact same as what most of us are running. So either a poster, a lurker, or somebody who saw pedros's list and liked it. -shrugs-
Matters not to me, shows that the list is picking up popularity, and is still strong.


Edit: also, never did get any responses on my question. What would you cut, if anything, to get a second whip in the side?

Tested against mono black tonight with a local ptq grinder. Stock list except he runs 1 Whip MD and 1 in the SB.

Pre-board: 5-4 me.
Post-board: 4-2 him.

Factor out floods for both of us, and the match was pretty even. Factor out the 3 or 4 games he had a whip and I feel they are in my favor.

Edit: also, never did get any responses on my question. What would you cut, if anything, to get a second whip in the side?

Doom Blade is the obvious candidate in your list. Or do what I did and Nix Toil//Trouble entirely to shore up the rest of the sideboard.

Also, Chandra has not impressed me one iota as a main deck inclusion and a four drop for a deck this hasty. What matches are you finding her most useful in? The falter seems like it'd be nice but at that point if you don't have board control chances are the falter falls flat(at least that's been my experience).

Are my posts not visible or something? I am trying to get everyone to talk about sb, especially about 2nd whip, not about MD and talking about worse cards - Jdub you are trying to say Thrill-Kill survives more removal than jester, while most of the time it is opposite. Both Necromancer (lack of humans) and Lifebane zombie (double black on turn 3 is quite hard) doesnt contribute much to our strategy.

We cant cut Doomblade, that is answer to master of the waves, most of devotion lists (kills reckoner for example), and is also in 7 cards for agro matchup that we already have. Imo we need 8 slots for agro and 6 slots for control.

So I ask another time: How do you sb vs Mono Black and WB Control (the one with blood barons). Maybe we have too many Dark Betrayals (awsome card, but maybe we already have to much? As whip is also quite good vs them as is erebos and terrors).

Sorry, Pedros, I meant I hadn't seen a direct answer, but have been trying, I'm just stupid e.e

As far as my sideboard vs monoblack, it'd be -3 dragon, -2 jet, +2 erebos, +3 Dark Betrayal.
For B/w version with blood baron instead, I make it -3 dragon, -2 jet, -2 up, +2 erebos, +3 Dark Betrayal, +2 Mortars

I do run a third dreadbore in the sideboard, so dropping the 3rd dark betrayal, and just making the sideboard vs monoblack be 2 dark betrayal, 1 dreadbore and B/w being 2 betrayal, 3 mortars, would be perfectly fine imo.

Generic (not esper midrange/humans, thats a weird one) aggro'd be -4 cackler, -4 jester, +3 relevant kill spell, +2 whip, +3 mortars and/or +1 dreadbore. Here we have the issue of having one extra card o pull in. I'd say that for smaller things it's just he 3 mortars and no dreadbore, but vs green or stuff with creatures bigger then 4/4, it's 2 mortars and 1 dreadbore.