Dies to Removal

So, been doing some thinking while laid up, and had a few thoughts for a couple of changes.

[deck]PyroDragons[/deck]

Basically, I dropped the satyrs for an extra land and a singleton assemble.
I have run into problems a few times where I just couldn't draw land, and I also ran into issues getting white. So by adding an extra land and switching an existing mountain to the guildgate, i can solve both of those. I also added
the singleton assemble because it can be a great card for stalling up the board while I beat on in the air. And the extra land helps since it's a third 5cmc.

I also shuffled the sideboard a bit. Because I have less creatures mb now but more white sources, I added a fourth reck, since it works as a great wall. I also put in a fourth mortars, so I can pull in even more removal.

I'm not 100% pretesting on whether the sideboard changes are good, since there's not much there to bring in when you need to be aggro. But i still think there's enough recursion and burn to beat mono-b, esper, u/w and such. Specially since charm and crack hurt them so bad. And if assemble resolves, they're in trouble.

Also could see a case for going back to 3 recks and having a second assemble sideboard...




Thoughts?

Hey Guys I'm new here and i want to play PyroRed:)
Please excuse any grammatical mistakes, English isn't my mother tongue, and feel free to correct me.
As i am a noob at deckbuilding, does anyone has a good MonoRed list for me? I have only 3 Chandras, 2 Vaults and 2 Reckoners available (for now ).
Just tested a few rounds again MonoR with many haste, with phoenixes topping the curve. I sucked horribly, though i cant see any misplays. Drew awfully some times though.

Greetings!

Unfortunately we are here to discuss the most competitive forms of the deck possible, not budget alternatives. All basic questions for any variant of PyroRed can be addressed in the first post of this thread on the Primer. Welcome to DtR!

So, been doing some thinking while laid up, and had a few thoughts for a couple of changes.

[deck]PyroDragons[/deck]

Basically, I dropped the satyrs for an extra land and a singleton assemble.
I have run into problems a few times where I just couldn't draw
land, and I also ran into issues getting white. So by adding an extra land and switching an existing mountain to the guildgate, i can solve both of those. I also added the singleton assemble because it can be a great card for stalling up the board while I beat on in the air. And the extra land helps since it's a third 5cmc.

I also shuffled the sideboard a bit. Because I have less creatures mb now but more white sources, I added a fourth reck, since it works as a great wall. I also put in a fourth mortars, so I can pull in even more removal.

I'm not 100% pretesting on whether the sideboard changes are good, since there's not much there to bring in when you need to be aggro. But i still think there's enough recursion and burn to beat mono-b, esper, u/w and such. Specially since charm and crack hurt them so bad. And if assemble resolves, they're in trouble.

Also could see a case for going back to 3 recks and having a second assemble sideboard...




Thoughts?

You are getting
your Big Boros in my Pyro.
I've rarely had mana troubles. You start to really sacrifice your edge in the B/x matchups and against Control by taking out Satyr and Zealot. I don't know that improving an already winnable Mono U matchup and a non existent G/X matchup is worth it. I could be completely wrong, of course.
Edit: With how tunable the deck is, any one direction isn't wrong, per se. If you are comfortable with bigger lists, testing is always the great equalizer.

Oh okay sorry thought you guys could give me some good lists.
Actually, i did use a list almost similar to one in the 1st Post but still got stomped every but one singe game. Maybe i was just unlucky, maybe it was because i almost always had to be the control-role against my friend.

I'm not too worried about dropping the satyrs being weaker vs black, cause assemble is basically an instant win vs them.
And I have just had horrendous results vs mono-u, so I'm more inclined to edit n that direction.

It might hurt some vs esper or u/w, but assemble is still really strong there

Oh okay sorry thought you guys could give me some good lists.
Actually, i did use a list almost similar to one in the 1st Post but still got stomped every but one singe game. Maybe i was just unlucky, maybe it was because i almost always had to be the control-role against my friend.

There's quite a few good lists floating around with lots of discussion on each one. Keep in mind that the Pyro variants do not play like "typical" RDW decks, so play with them to get a good feel for them.

Welcome aboard.

@RaidaTheBlade, your moving into Big Boros territory when the land counts gets above 23 - we should strive to keep the threads pure separating Devo, RB, Big Boros and Pyro.

Alright guys, after seeing all the people wanting to make PyroBlack work, I decided to give it a shot.

I have not even played the deck yet. I just wanted to throw this out there as an idea.

[deck]
Creatures (19)
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Young Pyromancer
3 Tymaret, the Murder King
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Spells (21)
4 Shock
3 Boon of Erebos
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
4 Wild Guess
2 Dreadbore

Lands (20)
4 Blood Crypt
4 Rakdos Guildgate
3 Swamp
9 Mountain
[/deck]

Lots of synergy going on here. Wild Guess can pitch Chandra's Phoenix or Tymaret for recursion. 21 spells all trigger YP$. 12 burn spells to go upstairs.

Thoughts? I definitely want Hammer of Purphoros somewhere in the 75 for aggro matchups.

Other cards I considered while building:[card]Altar's Reap[/card], [card]Toil / Trouble[/card], [card]Read the Bones[/card:
3vp6uun3].

Cleaner - Welcome to the thread! There are plenty of lists here that you can build and make appropriate substitutions into for your budget; however, this thread is not for budget discussion. Just a word of caution, coming to the thread and asking for lists is a great way to get off on the wrong foot.

RedEyes - please don't quote long posts that are right next to yours. It's poor etiquette. Just address the post to the user.

Val: Boon and Wild Guess both seem awful. Cards like Wild Guess dilute the number of threats in your deck, so instead of drawing a relevant card you're spending two mana, hoping for some synergy, and then drawing two cards hoping for a threat. It's very similar to playing Gitaxian Probe / YP$ in Legacy Burn. On paper it looks fine, but in practice you're removing key spells from your deck while slowing your clock.

@RaidaTheBlade, your moving into Big Boros territory when the land counts gets above 23 - we should strive to keep the threads pure separating Devo, RB, Big Boros and Pyro.

My (personal) requirements for this thread are the inclusion of YP$, Chained, Chandra, and 10 spells for YP$. That's open to debate though, and with the sheer number of different archetypes floating around it's a debate we need to have. The original intent was to abuse the synergy of these powerful cards, and the one-drops simply skewed the deck in an aggressive direction.

Boon was Titan's Strength. What changes would you recommend? I happen to like what Wild Guess offers. We're not looking to win on turn four with this deck.

@valdarith boon doesn't seem particularly good when our main threats are recurrable

I don't know whether Doom Blade / Ultimate Price is better, but I'd play some number of those to complement your Dreadbores. Titan's Strength seems significantly better than Boon, and you could also add 2-3 Ash Zealots. Ash Zealot is an incredible top deck, provides actual synergy with Titan's Strength, and plays really well in the long game.

Have you played with Wild Guess before? I've tested it, the card is truly awful. Filter is only good in a deck with individually powerful spells, and that's not the kind of deck we're playing.

@Valdarith, that manabase seems really greedy - you'll need extra mana if you want to run cards like YP$, Murder King and Phoenix otherwise you'll just cast them, watch them die and get 0 value.

EDIT: Agreed with Helios.

I have tested Wild Guess in similar decks with success. I would hardly call it terrible.

I too was thinking of some number of Doom Blade in the 60.

As a 1 or 2 of, maybe. 4 Wild Guess? I have no qualms calling that terrible. You're only playing 20 lands in a mana-hungry deck, so it's not like you're going to have extra lands to discard. The only cards that are even acceptable to discard are Tyramet and Phoenix, and discarding them doesn't give you "value" - you just lose tempo. Those cards are better on the field than in the grave. So more often than not, you're going to be discarding real cards or extra Wild Guesses to draw those very same cards, because almost every card in the deck is low-impact. Digging for a key card, like Assemble v. Mono Black, is a good reason to play filtering. Playing filtering for cute synergy is a terrible reason.

Would you be willing to say a card like Altar's Reap is a more acceptable card to run?

I'd imagine the Burger king demands 23 lands. You basically want to hit your first 3 land drops on time and want to get to around 5 mana in the midgame, then takeover with synergy. I also like Chandra in this deck with phoenix and as a plan B. Also lets you run less terrors which are Ok, not great.

[deck]4 Young Pyromancer
3 Tymaret the Murder King
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Firedrinker Satyr

2 Chandra, Pyromaster

4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
1 Flames of the Firebrand
2 Toil//Trouble
3 Shock

2 Dreadbore
1 Doom blade
1 Wild Guess(fine in the lategame. Limited scry and card draw=flood. Wild Guess=anti flood)

23 Lands. [/deck]

I kinda like Chandra too, especially if we're going to run 22-23 land. I think if we're going to run that much land we want Hammer of Purphoros too.

Also, your deck has 62 cards.

Would you be willing to say a card like Altar's Reap is a more acceptable card to run?

Not really. Why not increase your land count and play Chandra?

I've been loving Legion's Initiative over in Big Boros and I'd like to incorporate it into PyroDragon's mainboard. I'm not sure what amount of creatures I need to make a mb LI worth it. It's great with Ash Zealot but its hard to fit her in with YP$ when you're also trying to cram in 13~ spells to trigger YP$. Any ideas?
In this weekend's invi, I'm expecting to play mostly against control (mainly UW), white weenie, B/x, and a few U/x. Not too concerned about white weenie and U/x but here's where I'm at so far:

[deck]
11 mountain
4 mutavault
4 sacred foundry
4 temple of triumph

2 firedrinker satyr
4 rakdos cackler
3 ash zealot
3 young pyromancer
4 Chandra's phoenix
2 stormbreath dragon

1 legion's initiative
3 chained to the rocks

2 chandra, pyromaster

3 shock
4 lightning strike
4 magma jet
1 flames of the firebrand
1 mizzium mortars

SB
2 mizzium mortars
2 last breath
1 chained
to the rocks
3 boros reckoner
2 boros charm
3 skullcrack
1 glare of heresy
1 flames of the firebrand [/deck]

Explain the difference between Big Boros / Pyrodragons and why you think Initiative should be incorporated here. What is the advantage of playing this deck v. Big Boros?

Well the lists are so similar it's hard to pinpoint the differences but essentially, Big Boros attempts to go over the top which better against U/x, G/x, R/x while Pyrodragons attempts to go smaller. Pyrodragons can't go as small as say, boss sligh, and has a hard time pushing through the aforementioned matchups. But with a slightly lower curve, pyrodragons has an easier time with control and B/x whom I expect to be major players this upcoming weekend. As for why I want LI in pyrodragons, I'm not sure what to say. It combats Jace +1, last breath, and verdict and can help break through caryatids and specters.

Big Boros = 3+ dragons, no YP$

Pyro Dragons = some number of YP$, less than 3 dragons.

nice!

Big Boros = 3+ dragons, no YP$

Pyro Dragons = some number of YP$, less than 3 dragons.

No shit, I was asking vundo to think through why he was adding a card to Pyrored instead of just playing Big Boros.

@Val — We're thinking along similar lines with PyroRakdos.

Again, without any testing, this is what I came up with.

[deck]PyroRakis experiment[/deck]

The manabase is a bit iffy, but it has 19 Red, 10 black, and 2 colorless. I'm ok with it for now because of the power level of the cards in general. The r/b scryland will help immensely.

The Satyrs and Cacklers are there for early
pressure and as sacrifice fodder for the Burger King. I can't leave home without Ash Zealot and Chandra. Young Pyro and Phoenix work well with all the spells and burn. And it has Exava as a big, hasty finisher. I want Dreadbore over Doom Blade main since it kills so many things. Sure, it can't hit MoW, but all of his devotional buddies die to it, and the sideboard gives me plenty of ways to kill him.

The 'board is a work in progress, but it has options vs. all the dominant archetypes: Aggro, midrange, and control. Slaughter Games is a distinct possibility, Hammer is good, and so is Underworld Cerberus as a giant monster.

It's missing Spike Jester, but he's hard on the mana base. Curving from Cackler into Jester was sweet, sweet tears of misery for opponents last season with Dos Rakis.

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles ... -standard/

Great article, Z!
Nice plug to/for MDU!

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles ... -standard/

Great article, Z!
Nice plug to/for MDU!

Everyone get on there and leave positive comments. If this article is well recieved he'll get a permanent gig. We owe Z that much.

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles ... -standard/

Nice article! How comes you've dropped Ashley since the last list? Is it a metagame decision, or do you think that having more dragons / chained to the rocks is just flat-out better for all match-ups?

Okay thanks guys, sorry for derping
I really like the deck, looking forward to thursday to get to play it against a few more decks. Against my buddy, i felt like i was running out of answers too quickly. I tried to burn everything he had or landing a pyromancer, but those were shocked immediately.
Just some few thoughts from a newbie.

Okay thanks guys, sorry for derping
I really like the deck, looking forward to thursday to get to play it against a few more decks. Against my buddy, i felt like i was running out of answers too quickly. I tried to burn everything he had or landing a pyromancer, but those were shocked immediately.
Just some few thoughts from a newbie.

What deck was he playing? I am assuming a mono red variant, in which case you should be winning that match up easily! Post your current decklist and sideboard, and also tell how you are sideboarding. The more information you provide, the better answers and suggestions we can offer!

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles ... -standard/

Great article, Z!
Nice plug to/for MDU!

Everyone get on there and leave positive comments. If this article is well recieved he'll get a permanent gig. We owe Z that much.

This. Not guaranteed full staff yet (you'll notice my name doesn't appear in the author
shortcuts at the bottom, only if you click into the "authors" section of the website.

Done!

Great read Zem. It´s really noticable how little good Red Deck theory there is on CFB when you see this. You deserve a permanent spot and the community would be better for it.

@Val — We're thinking along similar lines with PyroRakdos.

Again, without any testing, this is what I came up with.

[deck]PyroRakis experiment[/deck]

The manabase is a bit iffy, but it has 19 Red, 10 black, and 2
colorless. I'm ok with it for now because of the power level of the cards in general. The r/b scryland will help immensely.

The Satyrs and Cacklers are there for early pressure and as sacrifice fodder for the Burger King. I can't leave home without Ash Zealot and Chandra. Young Pyro and Phoenix work well with all the spells and burn. And it has Exava as a big, hasty finisher. I want Dreadbore over Doom Blade main since it kills so many things. Sure, it can't hit MoW, but all of his devotional buddies die to it, and the sideboard gives me plenty of ways to kill him.

The 'board is a work in progress, but it has options vs. all the dominant archetypes: Aggro, midrange, and control. Slaughter Games is a distinct possibility, Hammer is good, and so is Underworld Cerberus as a giant monster.

It's missing Spike Jester, but he's hard on the mana base. Curving from Cackler into Jester was sweet, sweet tears of misery for opponents last season with Dos Rakis.

I think leaving out
Spike Jester is fine. There's a natural tension between the speed Spike Jester offers and the grindy nature that Young Pyromancer and Burger King entice you to play.

Here's where I'm at as I continue to brew based on suggestions from those participating in the thread (thanks guys):

[deck]
Creatures (19)
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Young Pyromancer
3 Tymaret, the Murder King
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Spells (18)
4 Shock
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
2 Dreadbore
2 Doom Blade
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Lands (23)
4 Blood Crypt
4 Rakdos Guildgate
2 Mutavault
2 Swamp
11 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
3 Dark Betrayal
2 Doom Blade
2 Dreadbore
4 Skullcrack
3 Toil / Trouble
1 Hammer of Purphoros
[/deck]

I've also got to thinking about a PyroBlue build. Blue offers Turn / Burn which does deal with Master of Waves (as long as you don't fuse it) and is not dead in any matchup. It also gives us Spellheart Chimera whose evasion is very strong in this current meta.

Big Boros = 3+ dragons, no YP$

Pyro Dragons = some number of YP$, less than 3 dragons.

No shit, I was asking vundo to think through why he was adding a card to Pyrored instead of just playing Big Boros.

haha . . . well, FWIW, I caught that you were doing some Socratic Jedi Questioning.

Okay thanks guys, sorry for derping
I really like the deck, looking forward to thursday to get to play it against a few more decks. Against my buddy, i felt like i was running out of answers too quickly. I tried to burn everything he had or landing a pyromancer, but those were shocked immediately.
Just some few thoughts from a newbie.

What deck was he playing? I am assuming a mono red variant, in which case you should be winning that match up easily! Post your current
decklist and sideboard, and also tell how you are sideboarding. The more information you provide, the better answers and suggestions we can offer!

He was playing a Monored Build with MANY creatures, i think BTEs, Firefist Strikers, Zealots, Satyrs... he was playing Shock and Strike each as a 4of maindeck, with 4 Chandras Phoenixes being his highest Drop on curve.

Yesterday he was just overwhelming me almost everytime although i played 1/1 cacklers, shocked Attackers ASAP... As i sad he burned my YP$ instantly, but i just HAD to play them to have a few blockers...
Post-Board it was a bit better, but still not easily winnable.
Though i have to say i often flooded and he had draws like "Denizen -> double BTE into Firefist striker"

Today we played one round, where he won the first match. In the second one, i drew all 4 Zealots and one of my two reckoners, and had 2 Phoenixes returning every turn thanks to my Chandra.
Third game wasn't close, either, he had drawn a lot
lands while i killed him with 2 Phoenixes.


I'm playing the "Monored I" Deck, but with flames of the Firebrand instead of anihilating fire.

[deck]Creatures
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Young Pyromancer

Planeswalkers
3 Chandra, Pyromaster

Instants
2 Flames of the Firebrand
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Shock

Lands
2 Mutavault
21 Mountain
[/deck]

Boarded 2 Reckoners and 4 Mizzium Mortars against 4 Satyrs and 2 Cacklers.