Just Chain and SkullCrack on the play, Mortars on the draw.
Dragons and Shock should go, if you need more room cut 1 mountain (you don't need 23 lands for just two chandras.
Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 4:21 am
by zemanjaski
To tell you the truth, between Modern every other week at FNM, a weird local Standard meta (although it is catching up to what people play online now that people are beginning to acquire more Theros cards) and stuff to do for school/fun brews in other formats to test instead, I haven't gotten to test much against Mono Black Devotion. Could someone help set me straight on card evaluations for this matchup?
My thoughts:
On their deck in general: Here, unlike with blue devotion, their devotion count usually comes from noncreature permanents, which we cannot remove.
FotF: I'm a bit back-and-forth on my opinion of this card. On the one hand, he takes out Specter, Lifebane or 2 Pack Rats. On the other hand, it's a bit worse in game 1 when they have
Grey Merchant (most versions that I've played against board it out vs. RDW. Do most players do this?). It's also a sorcery.
Mortars: Mine are all in the board, so I should keep that in mind for card evaluations. They don't play too many creatures, but the ones that they do play in game 2 are pretty good, so trading 1:1 is good for us.
Chained to the Rocks: I know I like it here. The question is whether I want to bring in 2 more for game 2 or stick with the 2 in the main. I think this is better than Mortars (unless they have Ratchet Bomb. Today, Mono Blue taught me that lesson the hard way by unchaining 2 Master of Waves when he already had Thassa and Frostburn).
Skullcrack: some lists have Whip of Erebos, and keep it in for the aggro matchup. I know Owen's list didn't, so that might decrease the number of lists that do, but it's still a factor, and I want Skullcrack to help fight it. Anyway, it's better than Shock.
Shock: This kills Pack Rat and Lifebane, but is otherwise ineffective.
nChandra, Pyromaster: She's great if she lives. Really, really great. I try to protect her very, very well, unless I can see that they have Hero's Downfall (if they're not trying to kill her on sight, they have it, or something else that can bring you to zero life).
Chandra's Phoenix: This card is so damn good, especially here. Does anyone have a spare promo version (buy a box, I think)? I've been looking for a fourth for a while now.
Ash Zealot: She's still in my main deck, and I like her here.
Act of Treason: Is this even any good here? My beef with this is that you can rarely steal a Demon and expect to deal damage with it.
Stormbreath Dragon: This card is also good. It's not as good as Phoenix, since it doesn't recur and it gets worse as the game goes on (they accumulating a large hand after 1-2 Underworld Connections (can we start calling this UConn?), increasing their chances of having removal).
Young Pyromancer: Always save the best for last! This card is very, very key against
them.
Well, I guess I knew more than I thought!
Rough boarding plan for me:
-2 Shock, -2 FotF, +2 Skullcrack +2 Act of Treason/Chained (or possibly just -2 Shock +2 Skullcrack)
Shock and Jet are usually your worst two cards (don't kill much); but they're good if your opponent is on Lifebane / Packrat. Owen's version is kind of a bye, so hopefully people net deck it.
4 Chained is optimal. I like 2 Act and 2 Skullcrack (or as many as you have).
Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 4:26 am
by Jack
Now that I've given it some thought, I see that Dragon, while good, just isn't where we want to be against that deck.
On the play:
-2 Shock, -2 Dragon, -2 Magma Jet
+2 Chained, +2 Skullcrack (I hope they make this the FNM promo sometime), +2 Act of Treason
On the draw:
-2 Shock, Dragon and Jet
+2 Chained, Skullcrack and Mortars
I really like this plan.
Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 4:27 am
by Jack
Or maybe -1 Mountain (or Mutavault) +1 Jet to those plans, as MDU pointed out.
Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 4:57 am
by TubeHunter
meh, I feel like I have enough trouble finding lands post board to cut one
(dont mind me, just angry anecdotal evidence passing through)
Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 5:21 am
by notap123
@MDU
Pyrewild for me just seems like a shoe in if you are playing Ashley. Its probably all preference but its kind of how BTE and FFS are in the take both or none category. I want a cleaner curve with ashley but I also want them to have potential into the late game (outside of burn combat tricks). I posted on your last youtube post that it might be better to run the split between 3 FDS and either Ashley or YP as the 4 of. I just went with the 3/3 split with Ash/YP to keep my core beaters intact, it was a last minute idea.
I will say it was extremely satisfying hitting Pyrewild against a carytid. I kept throwing my YP and tokens at him until he blocked. Kept the rest of his manadorks cleared until he caved in lol.
Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 6:06 am
by RaidaTheBlade
Hmm... Should a sideboard have fanatic or act?
I personally use act because midrange is big at my lgs, but with monoblack having a resurgence, I think it might be the more solid choice for a big event.
I mean, fanatic helps vs u/x and g/x. Act helps vs g/x, b/x and most midranges...
U/x is a bad matchup that is also really common, so... Blargle.
And like I said earlier, I am not opposed to the idea of dropping down to maybe 2 satyrs, and getting 2 or 3 other creatures instead... 2 zealots and a shaman wouldn't be terrible, but I don't know if it'd be good either. Thoughts?
Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 6:10 am
by Jack
Blargle.
I hope you talk like this in-person.
Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 6:11 am
by RaidaTheBlade
Blargle.
I hope you talk like this in-person.
Trust me, I do. And I have a slight southern accent so it's even better.
But yeah, I am a very odd person. Blargle is one of my more common weird words.
Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 7:03 am
by Lightning_Dolt
Busy this weekend. I went 1-2 at FNM (played mono-black x3, drew horribly).
Went undefeated in the Swiss at my GPT (1st seed going into single elimination) and then scrubbed out in the top 8 vs an opponent I spanked in the Swiss because I drew 16 lands in two games. Decided not to go to the second GPT this weekend because I'm feeling under the weather. One Bye for Shizuoka, unless I can win the GPT next weekend.
More details when I get to a computer.
Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 7:08 am
by coreyshamilton
Placed 15th out of 95 today (got free admission to future event) at a Super IQ in Indian Trail, NC today. This is my first post been lurking but I played MDU's latest setup with Ash Zealot added back in except 3 Mutavault and 12 mountain since I didnt have the Vault on hand. I am new to Magic started with M14 and started playing Pyro 2 weeks ago.
I went 5-2. I don't remember them that well as far as plays but I do have my match books filled out with life totals. One loss I misplayed tapping my lands wrong and missed a chain to rocks play but still may have lost and the other the guy got lucky with a read the bones to 2 life then got the removal he needed to beat me.
Anyways loving the deck. I'm not as good as I should be but that will come in time... Keep up the great work everyone.
Off the top of my head IIRC
Won against:
American Control 2-0
Mono-Blue 2-0
U/W Control 2-0
W/U Homebrew with Archangel and
Elspeth (looked like white weenies but definitely wasn't lol) 2-1
U/W Control 2-1
Losses Against
Junk Midrange 0-2
Jund Midrange 1-2
Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 8:21 am
by Pedros
8-1 @:GP Vienna, now going to day 2. Look for Maciej Kawonczyk.
Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 8:28 am
by magicdownunder
8-1 @:GP Vienna, now going to day 2. Look for Maciej Kawonczyk.
Very nice - win it for the red bros, where can I find info on GP Vienna?
Also, that hatto guy can suck it. He didn't even make day 2, and they did a deck tech/interview with him. He ain't got nuthin' on you
Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 8:37 am
by RaidaTheBlade
Also, this actually gives me food for thought.
Mdu was experimenting with bringing ash zealots back in since shrivel is a thing, and so having less 1 toughness is good.
The last list pedros put up had 4 reckoners mb instead of satyrs, with the satyrs in the side.
So if you're still running that build, pedros, let us know. It's slower, but the deck doesn't tend to be afraid of slower games... And I find the concept very interesting.
Along with hearing how it does vs black and esper or u/w control with that setup.
Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 8:37 am
by Keftenk
8-1 @:GP Vienna, now going to day 2. Look for Maciej Kawonczyk.
Nice!! Good job! Which list are you running? Is it the list Raida is talking about?
I really want to include Pyrewild Shaman somewhere in the 60 but I have issues cutting one
YP$ or Ash .
Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:30 am
by RaidaTheBlade
Random thought. How does one sideboard for the mirror?
By which I mean what do you do if you are piloting PyroDragons, and are facing down another person playing PyroDragons. The legit actual-facts mirror.
Normally in a red aggro matchup, we go controlly, but does that work here? Do both players sideboard to control and pray?
I just find it interesting to consider.
Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 11:02 am
by magicdownunder
Random thought. How does one sideboard for the mirror?
By which I mean what do you do if you are piloting PyroDragons, and are facing down another person playing PyroDragons. The legit actual-facts mirror.
Normally in a red aggro matchup, we go controlly, but does that work here? Do both players sideboard to control and pray?
I just find it interesting to consider.
You'll still play control (BRING IN LAST BREATH) then the MU becomes an epic test of skill and luck. (It terrifying and exciting how REAL Pyrodragon mirrors may become a thing)
Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 11:04 am
by RaidaTheBlade
Well if Pedros keeps it up (I seriously am upset that the site is being slow on updating with round results and such) then it may get some publicity.
You and Z have been raging all over modo with it. Z is gonna go to an invitational at some point, as is Purp.
I would not be surprised if some variant of this deck ends up being huge.
Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 11:16 am
by magicdownunder
Well if Pedros keeps it up (I seriously am upset that the site is being slow on updating with round results and such) then it may get some publicity.
You and Z have been raging all over modo with it. Z is gonna go to an invitational at some point, as is Purp.
I would not be surprised if some variant of this deck ends up being huge.
Since Z and I are Australians, even if we take down 1,000 DEs the odds of our wins getting published are very low (I'm shocked mine got published twice - wizards only post DE with the most players, during aussie times we only get about 110 avg each DE).
Its the American MTGO'er or the GP/PT winners which can shine some real light on this variant.
Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 4:38 pm
by Lightning_Dolt
Ok, so here are my reports for the weekend's events.
G1: This deck is a huge pain. I mull to 6. He tempos me until he gets the untap your guy on every untap phase guy, then he just has too many resources for me to keep up with.
G2: I mull to 5, but keep a good five, shoot the dorks and grind him out.
G3: G3 he is on tilt from losing to me on a 5 card hand. I play tight and get him. This match up feels awful, but I think you can maybe squeak it out.
1-0-0
Round 2 W/r Weenie
G1: He's on the play, we both keep 7. I play control and stabilize on three life. He couldn't find a red land, until he topped a temple, but I killed him before he could untap and Boros Charm me.
[u:
zqsii1y3]G2[/u]: He mulls to 6, I keep 7 and play control. It's basically a bye.
2-0-0
Round 3 VS USA Control
G1: Goes how matches vs control should go. I take no damage and get him on turn 5.
G2: We got deck checked. I took 2 from a shock, but otherwise was always in the driver's seat and just got him.
3-0-0
Round 4 VS MUD
G1: I keep 7, he mulls to 5. I go over the top with double dragons.
G2: I mull to 5, we play it out and it is really grindy, but double MoW finishes me.
G3: We both keep 7. I play tight, and it's a nail biter, but I get him. Match-up still feels awful, but I think it's close to even post SB.
4-0-0
Round 5 VS BUG Devotion
[b:
zqsii1y3](My friend, the only other undefeated player)[/b]
ID
4-0-1
Round 6 VS Esper Control
ID
4-0-2
I was the top seed going into the Top 8.
Quarter Finals VS W/r Weenie
(Same as opponent as Round 2, he is moaning about playing me again as he sits down)
G2: I keep Mountain, Mountain, [card:
zqsii1y3]Sacred Foundry[/card], Mutavault, Lightning Strike, Ash Zealot [card]Chandra's Phoenix[/card]. I think, surely that can't happen again. I draw 4 lands in a row again. He has a really good start and smokes me. My 5th draw is a lightning strike, but it's just too late.
Maybe I shouldn't have kept those hands? What do you guys think?
4-1-2 (5th)
I think the deck feels really solid. I'll be making a few slight changes.
Spells 16
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
3 Shock
2 Chained to the Rocks
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Flames of the Firebrand
Sideboard (15)
2 Chained to the Rocks
n2 Mizzium Mortars
4 Boros Reckoner
3 Boros Charm
2 Skullcrack
2 Last breath[/deck]
I'm tired of mulligans to 5 because of 2x Mutavault, no other lands openers (happened twice this weekend). I'm going to go for less greedy, more consistent.
I think I'm going to do the 1x Flames of the Firebrand again because it seems important for the MBD / W/x Weenie decks.
Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 4:51 pm
by Jack
First off, nice work! We're in agreement on 68/75 and 58/60 cards (I'm -1 shock +1 Flames -1 AZ +1 YP$ and don't play Boros Charm or Last Breath).
On your hands for your last games:
I wouldn't keep the first hand. I guess you realize that now, and you probably saw that it wasn't a good hand, but were just afraid of taking a mulligan (I know I am. It sucks to see a 6 that's worse than 7) . The second hand is probably keepable, since landing Ash Zealot on the play is really good, and it has a good removal spell.
Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 4:56 pm
by TubeHunter
found pedros. Looks like he finished 40th with 34 points. so 11-2-1 probably
Nice job man!
Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 5:05 pm
by Lightning_Dolt
First off, nice work! We're in agreement on 68/75 and 58/60 cards (I'm -1 shock +1 Flames -1 AZ +1 YP$ and don't play Boros Charm or Last Breath).
On your hands for your last games:
I wouldn't keep the first hand. I guess you realize that now, and you probably saw that it wasn't a good hand, but were just afraid of taking a mulligan (I know I am. It sucks to see a 6 that's worse than 7) . The second hand is probably keepable, since landing Ash Zealot on the play is really good, and it has a good removal spell.
I still think the first hand was acceptable (loose, but I'm not sure 6 would have been better, but I'm asking for opinions because I could be wrong). It was the 5 lands off the top that didn't work out. If they'd
been a mix of spells and creatures instead of lands I think I could have worked with it, but he did have a good hand. I don't know. I kept it mostly based on the strength of YP$ in that matchup. 17/24 cards I drew in that round were land. I couldn't make any miracles happen.
Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 5:12 pm
by Jack
Pyro is good, but not in a hand with 1 shock. That shock is probably worth nothing, because he's seen your deck, and, if he's smart, he'll either
A) not drop a creature without a way to protect it, or
B) have something better to back it up.
Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 5:21 pm
by Lightning_Dolt
Pyro is good, but not in a hand with 1 shock. That shock is probably worth nothing, because he's seen your deck, and, if he's smart, he'll either
A) not drop a creature without a way to protect it, or
B) have something better to back it up.
Shock kills almost anything in his deck, so I don't think it's bad.
It's not bad, but as the single burn spell in your hand, it won't do much.
Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 8:20 pm
by Helios
Good work pedros! That's an excellent finish.
I don't bring in Boros Charm against black. It just doesn't do enough. See previous discussion.
If you were on the play game 1 in the Quarterfinals, then the Shock seems like an awful play anyway- he can't tap out against you for fear of retribution, and you would have been able to drop YP with Shock mana up the next turn (because Soldier had to sit for a turn anyway). Obviously if you were on the draw it isn't as big of a deal.
Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:38 pm
by Lightning_Dolt
Good work pedros! That's an excellent finish.
I don't bring in Boros Charm against black. It just doesn't do enough. See previous discussion.
If you were on the play game 1 in the Quarterfinals, then the Shock seems like an awful play anyway- he can't tap out against you for fear of retribution, and you would have been able to drop YP with Shock mana up the next turn (because Soldier had to sit for a turn anyway). Obviously if you were on the draw it isn't as big of a deal.
I was on the draw, both games.
I think Boros Charm does a lot of work VS black. It gives you the ability to say no to any removal spell, including abrupt decay on your chained to the rocks, [
card]gaze of the gorgon[/card] etc. or you can go to the dome for lethal on T4 (which happened on Friday).
Also good against control.
Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:45 pm
by Jack
Why would you put yourself on the draw? When you take the first turn away from them, they lose a big part of their edge.
Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 11:08 pm
by zemanjaski
I don't know why you'd want to draw against black.
Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 12:04 am
by magicdownunder
I'll update the primer with J_S GPT report later today and hopefully Pedros report once he writes it up, be sure to note Devo Boros took two top8 in a Ux infested field (running 3-4 Chains MD) - that might say something about how strong FoM is vs Ux.
EDIT: ZERO!! Black Devotion decks in top16, starting to understand how things turned out like they did.
EDIT2: J_S, I wouldn't go on the draw with RW due to all your shock and ctipt lands...
Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 12:18 am
by Lightning_Dolt
I don't know why you'd want to draw against black.
Of course you would never want do draw vs black. I chose to draw against w/r weenie because I read and absorbed your article.
Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 12:32 am
by zemanjaski
I don't understand what feedback you want beyond "hope you don't draw 5 land in a row next time redbro".
There isn't any feedback to be given I'm afraid; though you seem to run pretty bad with flood.
Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 12:34 am
by RaidaTheBlade
So far our anti mono-u stuff is chained, last breath, fom, and rod sometimes...
I hate to be a pessimist, but is that enough? It looks like we're gonna be swimming in mono-u soon, and I for one don't have a great record vs them... Should we rearrange the mainboard even more to try and deal with them?
Heck, even more then ever I want those 4 chained main board... The ash zealots seem to be working for you mdu, but I don't know if they're better vs mono-u...
I am tempted to go 2 satyr, 3 zealot, 3 jet... But it still worries me e.e
Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 12:39 am
by magicdownunder
So far our anti mono-u stuff is chained, last breath, fom, and rod sometimes...
I hate to be a pessimist, but is that enough? It looks like we're gonna be swimming in mono-u soon, and I for one don't have a great record vs them... Should we rearrange the mainboard even more to try and deal with them?
Heck, even more then ever I want those 4 chained main board... The ash zealots seem to be working for you mdu, but I don't know if they're better vs mono-u...
I am tempted to go 2 satyr, 3 zealot, 3 jet... But it still worries me e.e
The Ash list is better against control and Rx devo/big decks, the more Chain and burn focus version is better against Ux - if you know your meta pick your 75.
FoM + Rod + Last Breath and being clever is
how you'll beat Ux Devotion, that said they will just sometimes beat you since their nuts draw is much better then our nuts draw.
EDIT: I still recall one DE where I fought 3 Ux Decks and 1 Big Red list, its winnable but not favorable.
EDIT2: You may also want to rethink running Reck vs Ux based on GP Vienna Domestication count...
Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 12:48 am
by Jack
So far our anti mono-u stuff is chained, last breath, fom, and rod sometimes...
I hate to be a pessimist, but is that enough? It looks like we're gonna be swimming in mono-u soon, and I for one don't have a great record vs them... Should we rearrange the mainboard even more to try and deal with them?
Heck, even more then ever I want those 4 chained main board... The ash zealots seem to be working for you mdu, but I don't know if they're better vs mono-u...
I am tempted to go 2 satyr, 3 zealot, 3 jet... But it still worries me e.e
Card-wise, you've dedicated the most to that match up out of all of us. If you're having problems, I'd recommend that you just find somebody and play the matchup a bunch until you understand and master
it. I know LP was helping JS to test with Blue Devotion, why don't you ask him?
Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 12:54 am
by Lightning_Dolt
So far our anti mono-u stuff is chained, last breath, fom, and rod sometimes...
I hate to be a pessimist, but is that enough? It looks like we're gonna be swimming in mono-u soon, and I for one don't have a great record vs them... Should we rearrange the mainboard even more to try and deal with them?
Heck, even more then ever I want those 4 chained main board... The ash zealots seem to be working for you mdu, but I don't know if they're better vs mono-u...
I am tempted to go 2 satyr, 3 zealot, 3 jet... But it still worries me e.e
Card-wise, you've dedicated the most
to that match up out of all of us. If you're having problems, I'd recommend that you just find somebody and play the matchup a bunch until you understand and master it. I know LP was helping JS to test with Blue Devotion, why don't you ask him?
LP is a fucking good player, so he's good to test against. A great gentleman.
@Zem I kind if feel like my luck just ran out. I had fantastic draws all day, so I'm not super upset. Opened three mythics in the prize packs too. I guess, I'm just looking for, do you think it was correct to keep those hands, or should I have mulliganed?
- win it for the red bros, where can I find info on GP Vienna?
.