Red Deck Wins

[Khaospawn]

Val, why no Vexing Devil in the deck? VD really helps make this deck capable of turn 4 kills.

[LP, of the Fires]

Niggas need to quite tryna put Ashley in they modern decks

[Valdarith]

EDIT: Now that I can actually post a lengthy response.

I won't get into the VD debate because we've hashed it out ad nauseum in this clan. It's not the kind of card I want to be playing, but especially so in this deck because I want all of my nonland cards to be immediate threats when topdecked. Burn spells, creatures with haste, or creatures with reach fit that bill. VD is none of those things.

I fail to see why Ash Zealot is bad in an x/2 or less format. It is both aggressive and defensive, synergies well with Searing Blaze and Blood, and has a relevant ability against Snapcaster decks and Storm. If the argument is that you think the slot belongs to something else, I'm all ears, but if you're honestly arguing that it's not a good card in the format then I can't take that opinion seriously at all.

[magicdownunder]

Ash is quite good vs Snappy and Lingering decks, its not like we're running vaults so double RR isn't a problem so beside her being another target for Spell Snare I don't think its horrible (I'll personally run VD over her (online at least) because people love combo so getting that fast kill is really important).

P.S. Val when are you going join the DtR Clan online? We've surpassed the old clan's booster count under a month with very little members and now most people DtR forum goers are in it, so join us!!!.

[Valdarith]

Ash is quite good vs Snappy and Lingering decks, its not like we're running vaults so double RR isn't a problem so beside her being another target for Spell Snare I don't think its horrible (I'll personally run VD over her (online at least) because people love combo so getting that fast kill is really important).

P.S. Val when are you going join the DtR Clan online? We've surpassed the old clan's booster count under a month with very little members and now most people DtR forum goers are in it, so join us!!!.

I'm still on the FoS clan but it's inactive so I need to drop. Can you send me an invite while I'm off or do I need to drop from the other one first?

[LaZerBurn]

@Val - you need to drop from FoS before MTGO will let me invite you

[Khaospawn]

The old VD debate is irrelevant when it comes to the current Modern environment. Deathrite actively made VD bad by rendering him as a sorcery speed Shock. A deck like Heal's attacks from so many different angles that VD is almost all upside. I would even go so far as to say that he's almost a requirement in decks like RDW or Burn.

Put it this way : Ashley is put in a corner very quickly when an opponent drops a turn 2 spellskite. Play a Vexing devil instead and your opponent either loses 4 life (good) or is now forced to decide whether they want to start blocking a 4/3 with spellskite and risk losing it or lose some life. Either way, you win.

Granted, Vexing Devils value changes after Game 1 and depending on your opening position, but the huge chunks of life that he can rip away from people is great enough that he must be considered. Like Heal said, Modern is a turn 4 format so you need to make your Red Deck a turn
4 deck. Vexing Devil allows you to do that.

[Khaospawn]

Niggas need to quite tryna put Ashley in they modern decks

Cuz Ashley is the hero we deserve, but not the one that we need.

[LP, of the Fires]

EDIT: Now that I can actually post a lengthy response.

I won't get into the VD debate because we've hashed it out ad nauseum in this clan. It's not the kind of card I want to be playing, but especially so in this deck because I want all of my nonland cards to be immediate threats when topdecked. Burn spells, creatures with haste, or creatures with reach fit that bill. VD is none of those things.

I fail to see why Ash Zealot is bad in an x/2 or less format. It is both aggressive and defensive, synergies well with Searing Blaze and Blood, and has a relevant ability against Snapcaster decks and Storm. If the argument is that you think the slot belongs to something else, I'm all ears, but if you're honestly arguing that it's not a good card in the format then I
can't take that opinion seriously at all.

Ash Zealot is just not a good card in modern. All it does is attack and block, and it costs TWO WHOLE MANA for that. She's like a worse version of eidolon most of the time. Yeah, she allows you to do things like stack FS damage and use removal to kill bigger guys or hold dudes off on Defenses, but those aren't things you should be in the market for. You should be in the market for KILLING YOUR OPPONENT QUICKLY which she fails horribly at.

The passive ability is also very overstated. Depending on the size of the tournament, you'll come up against snapcaster/lingering soul decks 20/30 percent of the time or maybe 3 rounds over the course of the day wherea's having something cheaper like VD that lets you get in 4 damage and/or lets you cast multiple spells while bottlenecked on mana is simply going to come up a lot more.

[Khaospawn]

Man, LP and Zem both have a knack for saying precisely what I mean to say. And in fewer words.


And they're sexier than me.

[Valdarith]

But Zem would never say that.

[Khaospawn]

You're right, he wouldn't. He would just say that playing Red aggro in Modern or Legacy is a bad idea to begin with.

[Valdarith]

Exactly!

[zemanjaski]

I was summoned.

[Alex]

I opened this thread, saw "Ash Zealot" in Modern and stopped reading. Come on, guys.

[Valdarith]

I was summoned.

It's like Beetlejuice. Say his name three times and he magically appears.

[Khaospawn]

I opened this thread, saw "Ash Zealot" in Modern and stopped reading. Come on, guys.

If you bothered to read any of it, you'd know it was just one person.

But because we're bros here, we don't single anyone out. *cough* VALDARITH *cough*

[Khaospawn]

I was summoned.

[Valdarith]

Honestly I still think he's fine but what do I know.

[Valdarith]

Like, if we're concerned about a turn four goldfish then why are we running Molten Rain, Shrine, and Mogg Fanatic?

[Toddington]

[deck]Magus List[/deck]

Something Like this?

This is what it looks like, with a copypasted Heal sideboard (Pillar > Claw),
[deck=Magus List w/ SB]
Creature (20)
4x Eidolon of the Great Revel
1x Figure of Destiny
4x Goblin Guide
3x Grim Lavamancer
4x Magus of the Moon
4x Mogg Fanatic

Instant (10)
2x Flame Javelin
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Searing Blaze




Sorcery (6)
4x Molten Rain
2x Pillar of
Flame

Artifact (2)
2x Shrine of Burning Rage

Land (22)
4x Arid Mesa
2x Keldon Megaliths
12x Mountain
4x Scalding Tarn

Sideboard (15)
2x Blood Moon
2x Dismember
2x Pillar of Flame
4x Pyrite Spellbomb
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Shattering Spree
2x Smash to Smithereens[/deck]

You, as I said earlier, the idea is amazing. Cut the extra lands and the horrible plated geopede for actual good cards and you have a hell of a powerful deck.

-4x Geopede
-3x Teetering Peaks

+4x VD
+1x Searing Blaze
+2x Figure (manasink so the SSG arn't horrible)

Profit?

That looks like
this (assuming SB is still valid with reduced land count),
[deck]Adrian Sullivan Modified[/deck]
(http://www.starcitygames.com/article/28 ... odern.html)

Things that stand out to me are the 2nd Figure, and the lack of a 22nd land. A-Sulli says in the article that 4 Simian Spirit Guide might be too many, but I haven't got
close to figuring that out.

Niggas need to quite tryna put Ashley in they modern decks

Does anyone else like her against Pod (Finks + Voice specifically)? Other than potentially that and the other obvious applications, I don't think you can justify the inclusion.

[Khaospawn]

Like, if we're concerned about a turn four goldfish then why are we running Molten Rain, Shrine, and Mogg Fanatic?

Killing on turn 4 is not the goal, BUT you have to be capable of it. It's like Splinter Twin - you can win the game on turn 4, but it doesn't always happen.

You play Molten Rain, Shrine, and Mogg Fanatic to beat the bogeymen when you don't hit the nuts and win on turn 4. The Big 3 decks are Pod, Twin, and Affinity. Mogg Fanatics are a beast against all 3 decks. RDW's worst matchup is typically UWR and the Molten Rains and Shines are your best weapons against that deck.


The Molten Rains are actually VERY good against a variety of decks in the format. Since the deck plays a variety of cheap threats, it's not hard to apply
early pressure and then knock them off tempo with some landkill. Hell, sometimes that's all it takes to win - you just blow up their land and now they're screwed or they're unable to play that game winning card such as Cryptic Command or Splinter Twin.

Imagine this scenario:

Turn 1 Mogg Fanatic

Turn 2 Shrine

Turn 3 Molten Rain a shock land


GET FUCKED!

Meanwhile, that Fanatic is either attacking or threatening to kill one of their x/1's like Bob, Signal Pest, or Clique.


Also, the Molten Rains are just great against Tron.

[Toddington]

You play Molten Rain, Shrine, and Mogg Fanatic to beat the bogeymen when you don't hit the nuts and win on turn 4.

I get what you are saying, and I think I actually fall on this side of the argument (Molten Rain = Tempo + Screw), but surely if we didn't play these cards we get the nuts more often. I'm not sure what the nuts are, but surely playing more of them gives you the nut draw more often. Again, not disagreeing, but would like to hear the discussion all the same.

[Valdarith]

It was a rhetorical question. I know why we play those cards. My point was that we shouldn't disregard a card because it doesnt kill quickly as LP mentioned.

I'm just going to say that I will never put VD in any deck I ever build, but especially not in Modern. I prefer to know what my cards do in all phases of the game.

[Khaospawn]

Val, take it from me, it's way better than you think. I don't know what LP said besides some solid advice being pro-Vexing Devil and to stop trying to jam Ashley in every Modern deck right now.


If you don't want to play Vexing Devil for that reason. alone you're just hindering yourself.

I have no more to say about this.

[Khaospawn]

You play Molten Rain, Shrine, and Mogg Fanatic to beat the bogeymen when you don't hit the nuts and win on turn 4.

I get what you are saying, and I think I actually fall on this side of the argument (Molten Rain = Tempo + Screw), but surely if we didn't play these cards we get the nuts more often. I'm not sure what the nuts are, but surely playing more of them gives you the nut draw more often. Again, not disagreeing, but would like to hear the discussion all the same.

Have you actually played with this deck?



Everyone besides myself and LP, who has actually
played with the Heal list?

[Toddington]

You play Molten Rain, Shrine, and Mogg Fanatic to beat the bogeymen when you don't hit the nuts and win on turn 4.

I get what you are saying, and I think I actually fall on this side of the argument (Molten Rain = Tempo + Screw), but surely if we didn't play these cards we get the nuts more often. I'm not sure what the nuts are, but surely playing more of them gives you the nut draw more often. Again, not disagreeing, but
would like to hear the discussion all the same.

Have you actually played with this deck?



Everyone besides myself and LP, who has actually played with the Heal list?

The way you said it, you make them sound like a Plan B. Why add a Plan B at the expense of Plan A.

[Valdarith]

There are other reasons I don't want to play VD but I'm tired of rehashing the same arguments that have been produced by others ad nauseum so I'll leave it at that. The Red Mage himself doesn't run the card in his brews either and I doubt he thinks he's hindering his gameplan.

[Khaospawn]

Patrick Sullivan does in fact play VD in Modern Burn. He even made a convincing Facebook post about it months ago.

[LaZerBurn]

Everyone besides myself and LP, who has actually played with the Heal list?

Me I've only played Burn in Modern before and consider myself pretty much a total Modern newbie but I REALLY like the deck (great synergies, fun to play, classic RDW) and am slowly starting to slowly gain an understanding of the format I'm currently here -

[deck=Nicholas Heal's RDW, tweaked by LP]
Creature (20)
4x Eidolon of the Great Revel
1x Figure of Destiny
4x Goblin Guide
3x Grim Lavamancer
3x Magus of the Moon
1 x Vexing Devil
4x Mogg Fanatic

Instant (10)
2x Flame Javelin
4x Lightning
Bolt
4x Searing Blaze

Sorcery (6)
4x Molten Rain
2x Pillar of Flame

Artifact (2)
2x Shrine of Burning Rage

Land (22)
4x Arid Mesa
2x Keldon Megaliths
12x Mountain
4x Scalding Tarn

Sideboard (15)
2x Dismember
2x Pillar of Flame
4x Pyrite Spellbomb
2x Relic of Progenitus
3 x Vexing Devil
2x Smash to Smithereens[/deck]
Magus is in the MD for testing but It might be better to run 4 VD in the MD and 3 MotM (or 2 Blood Moon / 1 Shattering Spree) in the SB. Searing Blaze has been great but Searing Blood may be better.

[Khaospawn]

You play Molten Rain, Shrine, and Mogg Fanatic to beat the bogeymen when you don't hit the nuts and win on turn 4.

I get what you are saying, and I think I actually fall on this side of the argument (Molten Rain = Tempo + Screw), but surely if we didn't play these
cards we get the nuts more often. I'm not sure what the nuts are, but surely playing more of them gives you the nut draw more often. Again, not disagreeing, but would like to hear the discussion all the same.

Have you actually played with this deck?



Everyone besides myself and LP, who has actually played with the Heal list?

The way you said it, you make them sound like a Plan B. Why add a Plan B at the expense of Plan A.

You have no idea how this deck works, do you?

Watch Heal's deck tech. Then watch it again. Besides writing an article about how to play RDW in Modern, I don't know how else to explain it. And I'm not going to write an article while on my phone.

[Toddington]

Magus is in the MD for testing but It might be better to run 4 VD in the MD and 3 MotM (or 2 Blood Moon / 1 Shattering Spree) in the SB.

Vexing Devil always feels great when you cast multiples back to back, or on consecutive turns. Seems to me that 4 or 0 is the right number MD. What are your thoughts on the singleton/how has it been for you? For what matchups are you bringing the others in?

You have no idea how this deck works, do you?

Watch Heal's deck tech. Then watch it again.
Besides writing an article about how to play RDW in Modern, I don't know how else to explain it. And I'm not going to write an article while on my phone.

You've completed missed the point I was trying to make. There's no need to be condescending either.

[Khaospawn]

Apparently I did miss the point because everything you've said and asked leads me to believe you don't know anything about this deck or archetype. It wasn't my intention to come off as condescending. I meant every word I said. Watch the deck tech. And then watch it again.

Know how many times I've watched it? More than five times at least. I always give advice that I would follow myself. Those that really know me understand this. When I say things like,"This deck wants Vexing Devil, " then I really believe this deck needs muthafuckin' Vexing Devil. And when I say that I think you should watch the damn deck tech multiple times , I mean it.

So pretty please. With a fucking cherry on top. Watch the deck tech.

[Valdarith]

Patrick Sullivan does in fact play VD in Modern Burn. He even made a convincing Facebook post about it months ago.

Key word being Burn. In a deck that focuses more on board presence and a more grinding strategy, VD just isn't effective.

[Khaospawn]

After rereading some of my posts, I do admit that they sound harsh.

I think one of my worst qualities is in my inability to say exactly what I mean in fewer words. The more I ramble, there is more of an opportunity for my words to come off differently than I intended. Also, text is a horrible way to convey how I actually speak.

Anyways, I'm not trying to start any bad blood with my redbros. And I'm going to make an effort here to summarize my last few posts in a better way:

First, gentlemen, I implore ya'll to watch and rewatch this. There is a lot of useful information that Heal just spits out. He certainly knows his stuff, but he also speaks fast at certain parts. He was probably nervous, but it's worth it to listen to every word he has to say.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4OmqPFy74E


Now that you've spent about 20 minutes watching it and have heard the reasons
for why every card has its place in the deck, I'll revisit Val's point about Mogg Fanatic, Shrine, and Molten Rain.

All of these cards attack from multiple angles. Mogg Fanatic is a creature that is a source of repeatable damage (duh). But he's also versatile in that he functions as a Gut Shot. This is huge. Not only is the card able to deal damage, but it's capable of a tempo play.

Molten Rain is in the same category as Mogg Fanatic - it's a tempo play that also deals damage. Like Heal said, the deck just does its thing and happens to win by incremental damage. RDW is capable of controlling the board and trading resources with the opponent, but over the course of the game, the little points of damage add up to kill your opponent.

Shrine also has versatility. Not only does it signal to the control player that the end is nigh, it can also be used to kill pro-red things or just really big creatures. It adds
inevitability to the deck. It has perfect synergy with the deck. While you are exhausting your resources to control the board, it builds and builds until you're able to just win on the spot.


And despite having all of these grindy tools available to play some good Magic, the deck is capable of winning very quickly. Goblin Guide into Vexing Devils into Burn spells mean the game can be over very quickly. This is a good thing since some decks will try to kill you on turn 4 also, like Splinter Twin or Affinity. Most good decks need a nut draw like this. The versatile tempo cards in the deck don't act as a plan B to the deck, they enhance the plan A. Mogg Fanatic can attack for a couple turns and then sac itself for another point. When you add it up, it functioned as a freakin' Lightning Bolt! (attack on turn 2, attack on turn 3, sac for 1). Yet,like I said before, it is versatile in that it can serve numerous roles within a game, like making a tempo play or simply sacrificing
itself for more damage in response to a kill spell.

You have to squeeze every last point of value out of each card. Fight for every point of damage because it adds up.

As for Vexing Devil, its value went up with the banning of DRS. Modern is the only format in which it is worth a damn. And it does work. Patrick Sullivan endorsed him immediately after DRS was banned. I did too. And so did other people, such as MDU.

Here's a link to an article from the Red Mage himself about his choices for Modern Burn back in March. You'll have to scroll to the bottom to see the lists.

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/28 ... South.html

Holding on to an old argument from a year ago is pointless. It was a different time and a different format. Things have changed.

RDW is capable of winning sometimes solely with Burn or solely through attacking with little critters. Vexing Devil functions as a bit of both. Early
damage or a critter to attack with. The deck itself does a pretty good job at times controlling the field so if you topdeck him late and cast him just as a creature, chances are he'll probably get there. And if not, he can attack into something and usually kill it. Don't forget that simply casting him with a Shrine in play is still a win as it does add a counter to the Shrine. He's also food for the Lavamancer - you can't argue with that.

Anyways, I hope this helps. Being at a computer and not on my phone also helps me say what I mean to say.

[Khaospawn]

Patrick Sullivan does in fact play VD in Modern Burn. He even made a convincing Facebook post about it months ago.

Key word being Burn. In a deck that focuses more on board presence and a more grinding strategy, VD just isn't effective.

Val, you're not getting it. I hope you read the post I made before this one. This deck doesn't have a set in stone purpose such as "establish a board presence and dig in for a grindy game." In fact, there is only 8 more creatures in this deck than in Burn - Mogg Fanatic and Eidolon. And really, Mogg Fanatic plays most of the
time as Burn spell. So now what? You say it's not effective why? When was the last time you ever played with Vexing Devil? Probably never. Or at least not in the last few months when he suddenly became playable again.

It really sounds to me like you just want to hold on to some belief that he's bad despite some sound arguments. Is my word not good enough? MDU's? LP's? Lazerburn's? We've all been trying the Devil out.

If you're dead set on never playing him, that's your choice. However, I don't think your argument is good enough to justify your decision.

[Valdarith]

I will need a long time to respond cogently, but I'm fairly busy right now so hopefully I remember in the next few days, but if I don't, consider the matter dropped. Suffice it to say, I have yet to hear a "sound argument" favoring VD. I need a lot more theorycrafting than "it enables turn four kills". In what conditions is it good? In what conditions is it bad? Do instances where you wished it were another creature come up more often than not? How does it effect your percentages against the popular decks in the format? Does it just make good matchups better or does it improve bad ones at the expense of good ones?

[LP, of the Fires]

Mogg Fanatic as gut shot cannot be overstated.

You win a gross amount of games by stone raining people between fanatic killing dorks and molten rain. What's better then killing people before they can cast their spells? Stone raining them so they really can't cast their spells.

[Toddington]

Shrine also has versatility. Not only does it signal to the control player that the end is nigh, it can also be used to kill pro-red things or just really big creatures. It adds inevitability to the deck. It has perfect synergy with the deck. While you are exhausting your resources to control the board, it builds and builds until you're able to just win on the spot.

Shrine is the only card I have a problem with. It's clunky at the best of times in ~20 land decks. It's best on Turn 2 right, but that means you are taking a turn off from affecting the board (in the short term). When I want to cast a card on Turn 2 often, I play 4 in the deck. I guess just jamming fours is rarely optimum. The more I look at Heal's list,
the more it looks like a masterpiece. He really sells the Shrine against EFro. I need to think of it as less of a threat, and more of an insurance policy.

Heal vs. EFro

---

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1NnRqciIkE

As for Vexing Devil, its value went up with the banning of DRS. Modern is the only format in which it is worth a damn. And it does work. Patrick Sullivan endorsed him immediately after DRS was banned. I did too. And so did other people, such as MDU.

I like Vexing Devil a reasonable amount, and I've played more Modern pre-DRS ban. Heal says Rift Bolts are flex slots, but I see how important they are now. Along with Vexing Devil they do offer tremendous pressure. I felt that the last time I played, I was running out of steam before my opponent died. Instead of trying to get clever with Pillar of Flame etc. I need to get working on making the opponent more deaderer.
n

Mogg Fanatic as gut shot cannot be overstated.

It's a Gut Shot that wants your opponent to die as-well as their Elves!

[Khaospawn]

I will need a long time to respond cogently, but I'm fairly busy right now so hopefully I remember in the next few days, but if I don't, consider the matter dropped. Suffice it to say, I have yet to hear a "sound argument" favoring VD. I need a lot more theorycrafting than "it enables turn four kills". In what conditions is it good? In what conditions is it bad? Do instances where you wished it were another creature come up more often than not? How does it effect your percentages against the popular decks in the format? Does it just make good matchups better or does it improve bad ones at the expense of good ones?

If you don't respond, I'll consider it dropped. But know this:

I have played the damn card. It deals a lot of
damage. When I get a 1 mana 4/3 creature, I am never disappointed. When my opponents take 4 damage, I am never disappointed. It's good early and it's good late. If they use a card to kill it, they now have one less card in hand, and that's okay because most of the games just turn into a resource trade off. I can't recall a game where VD was ever bad.

None of this is "theorycrafting." I have the experience with the card to back all of this up.

I'll tell ya one thing - I'd rather have a Vexing Devil than an Ash Zealot any day of the week. In a format where everyone is pinging and shocking themselves, taking 4 damage or having a source of repeatable 4 damage (all for 1 mana!) is pretty damn huge. Ash Zealot is usually outclassed quickly and then walled off.

Yes, there are times where he is boarded out, especially depending on my position. Hell, I've even boarded out Goblin Guide and you don't see anyone questioning his role in the deck.

He doesn't "improve bad matchups"
and he doesn't make "good matchups better," VD is simply a source of big damage, something the deck needs. Nobody questions Lightning Bolt or even fucking Forked Bolt. But Vexing Devil? It's like simply reading the name induces a flinch reaction and an urge to vomit in some people.


Bottom line: play the card or don't. If you need convincing, play the damn thing and see which one allows you to win more games - Ash Zealot or Vexing Devil. Seriously, it's like this is some farfetched idea to splash in Green for Tarmogoyf or something. I thought LP's argument was convincing, but I guess I was wrong.


edit: watch game 2 of Heal's game versus Froelich. You'll see some good Vexing Devil action.