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Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:49 pm
by Jack
In fact, I'd say that PV's article on aggro - control (along with his one on aggro) is required reading for anyone that plays this deck.
Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 2:58 pm
by Purp
Should def put my IQ report in the primer
Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 3:07 pm
by BobMcFail
Hello I'm new to DTR, so I'll start with a few questions about this deck.
How good is Chandra?
Is it possible to play a version without her that tops out with Phoenix?
What do you guys think about Legions Iniative and Akroan Hoplite? They are kind of my pet cards but could be pretty sweet with all the tokens.
How good is Mutavault in the deck?
The last one is @Freedom do you have a link?
Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 3:11 pm
by Purp
BobMcFail read the first post of this thread, all your questions will be answered
Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 3:19 pm
by Zooligan
It's easier for me to run Monte Carlo simulations instead of trying to make sure I'm getting the hypergeometic distribution right.
How do you do that? Could you put together an application that would allow us to enter our own decklists, choose which variables to enter and summarize on (which and how many target cards by which turn, etc)?
Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 4:08 pm
by windstrider
Hello I'm new to DTR, so I'll start with a few questions about this deck.
1. How good is Chandra?
2. Is it possible to play a version without her that tops out with Phoenix?
3. What do you guys think about Legions Initiative and Akroan Hoplite? They are kind of my pet cards but could be pretty sweet with all the tokens.
4. How good is Mutavault in the deck?
5. The last one is @Freedom do you have a link?
Hi, Bob. Welcome aboard.
One thing to keep in mind is that a lot of these questions have been answered or discussed previously. We're mostly of the opinion that people should look for answers themselves by reading the various Primers and articles. But, since it can be intimidating to read through 50+ pages of deck stuff, here's some
quick answers.
1. She's the best planeswalker currently in the game.
2. Yes, especially since there are times when you won't even see her in a game. That being said, she is a valuable asset to have available. Chandra + her Phoenix together are amazing value.
3. The current thinking on Initiative is that it doesn't do quite enough. The (mostly) power boost is nice, but it's not necessary, and we have better wrath protection with Boros Charm, which is more versatile. Hoplite is a card to keep an eye on, but, to me, it doesn't have enough value yet because of a lack of evasion.
4. Very, very good. They're additional threats in a deck that wants to have max value out of everything it plays.
5. PV's article can be found here:
http://www.channelfireball.com/home/pvs ... o-control/
Edit: Fixed grammar issue.
Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:21 pm
by montu
It's easier for me to run Monte Carlo simulations instead of trying to make sure I'm getting the hypergeometic distribution right.
How do you do that? Could you put together an application that would allow us to enter our own decklists, choose which variables to enter and summarize on (which and how many target cards by which turn, etc)?
No, I don't have anything easily used by others. (It's all custom code I wrote in Matlab.)
If you check out these articles, there's a link to some pretty extensive C++ code you could modify to run your own analysis.
Direct Link to code:
http://aluminumangel.org/Magic%20Probab ... oolkit.zip
Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 6:31 pm
by Aodh
You can also conduct MC(MC) in R and S+.
Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 7:10 pm
by Zooligan
Yeah, that's way over my head as far as programming goes. Alas, I know what I want to do, but am not enough of a code sorcerer to do it.
EDIT: Ha, HA! F U inferiority complex! I figured it out using Python scripting. Bad Python scripting I'm sure. And all hard-coded. But still, now I know how to do it, even if it is inflexible clunking code.
Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:49 pm
by Lightning_Dolt
@ windstrider : Jace the Mind Sculptor says no.
Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:13 pm
by RaidaTheBlade
@ windstrider : Jace the Mind Sculptor says no.
Chandra, Pyromaster is the RED MINDSCULPTOR.
And since it's red, it is inherently better.
But seriously, a synergistic + ability, a 0 that generates card advantage, and a finisher that is actually relevant as all heck!
Beautiful!
Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:21 pm
by Tyrael
I wish she was 10 bucks beautiful instead of 30 bucks beautiful though
Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:27 pm
by windstrider
@ windstrider : Jace the Mind Sculptor says no.
JtMS cannot be cast by Mountains alone, therefore he is inferior to Chandra, Thighmaster.
Edit my earlier statement to "Chandra is the best planeswalker currently in Standard," and it's true.
Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:35 pm
by RaidaTheBlade
That is silly amounts of true. Though I have friends who deny it whenever I say so, and instead try and say Domri. He's good, but not as good as Chandra...
Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:39 pm
by Yarpus
I'm slowly recognizing the power Xenagos has.
This guy is good. PyroGruul might actually prefer him over Chandra due to fixing bad Mono Black matchup.
Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:44 pm
by vundo
I don't like planeswalkers as answers to MonoBlack. 4 mana for a 2/2 doesn't seem that appealing
Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:45 pm
by Tyrael
Xenagos will rule once Chandra rotates out
calling it
Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:58 pm
by montu
Yeah, that's way over my head as far as programming goes. Alas, I know what I want to do, but am not enough of a code sorcerer to do it.
EDIT: Ha, HA! F U inferiority complex! I figured it out using Python scripting. Bad Python scripting I'm sure. And all hard-coded. But still, now I know how to do it, even if it is inflexible clunking code.
Love it! Yeah, it's pretty much just loops and counting.
Looking forward to your Monte Carlo insights!
Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:00 am
by Yarpus
He feeds DD and grants a threat largely immune to their removal suite.
Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:10 am
by soebek
Xenagos will rule once Chandra rotates out
calling it
Xenagos won't be in a Standard without Chandra, though. This was her first Core Set appearance, so she'll be reprinted in M15 guaranteed.
Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:19 am
by Tyrael
Xenagos will rule once Chandra rotates out
calling it
Xenagos won't be in a Standard without Chandra, though. This was her first Core Set appearance, so she'll be reprinted in M15 guaranteed.
Phew that's good
I know that my investment will be viable for an extra year ^^
Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:23 am
by Khaospawn
@ windstrider : Jace the Mind Sculptor says no.
Blasphemy. Search your feelings, JS, you
know this to be true.
Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:58 am
by magicdownunder
Should def put my IQ report in the primer
Will do, but if I do this I'll also have to dig up the other IQ win (etc Vondo first place IQ) and I don't know how many countless other.
I think that is why Helios didn't include them when he was working on the primer.
on that note: anyone who has a IQ or GPT win please let me know, so I don't need to dig.
Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 2:03 am
by Zooligan
Love it! Yeah, it's pretty much just loops and counting.
Looking forward to your Monte Carlo insights!
First thing I did was run your same numbers for comparison. Numbers started to converge towards yours with as few as 5,000 iterations.
Time to start stalking the Python forums to find ways to make the routine more flexible.
Question: are there types of mtg deck/hand questions this type of sim is better at answering than others?
Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 2:04 am
by dpaine88
Ah man, Final Fantasy MMO had me sucked in hard.
All I needed was SCG Open coming to town this weekend to wake my ass up!!
Greats to MDU and Purp on your recent accomplishments.
Really trying to top 8 this bitch....been getting stuck in 10-12 the past 200+ person events I've been going to.
Read the past 4 pages or so, most of you switch to R/W I see???
Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 3:07 am
by Lightning_Dolt
Chandra is the best in standard and possibly modern. I like koth better though.
Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 3:32 am
by montu
Was checking out this video to get some ideas, since BG Midrange has stomped me lately.
(Hopefully not a stupid) Question: In game 2 (which was a sweet game, btw), why didn't you dome him with Chandra for 1 and then fly over with the Phoenix to end the game? (at 37:15 in the video).
FYI . . . this is the deck that stomped me 2 matches in a row.
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/8230
Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 3:54 am
by LP, of the Fires
Probably just tunnel vision from being so far ahead.
Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 4:50 am
by magicdownunder
Was checking out this video to get some ideas, since BG Midrange has stomped me lately.
(Hopefully not a stupid) Question: In game 2 (which was a sweet game, btw), why didn't you dome him with Chandra for 1 and then fly over with the Phoenix to end the game? (at 37:15 in the video).
FYI . . . this is the deck that stomped me 2 matches in a row.
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/
archetype/8230
He had Ooze and enough creatures, he wanted to activate vaults (block), Ooze (Block), the hydra get faltered by Chandra +1 damage he is on 2 - so he then (blocks) with Sylvan Caryatid and then tap before damage activation Ooze to gain one life he is back on 3 my Bird then only deals 2 so he'll be back on 1, then he'll swing the following turn to kill me.
Hitting the Shock was the only reason why I won.
Probably just tunnel vision from being so far ahead.
At least look at the video...
Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 5:24 am
by dpaine88
Montu - The opponent had 1 green mana up and Scavaging Ooze out with Boros Reckoner in GY.
Could just gain 1 life then GG.
Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:38 am
by poppa_f
Deck-List:
[deck=Zemanjaski 's PyroWhite - MDU Tweaked]Lands 23
11 Mountain
4 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
Creatures 20
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra’s Phoenix
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
3 Young Pyromancer
1 Pyrewild Shaman
Instants 11
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
3 Shock
Others 6
3 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Chained to the Rocks
1 Flame of the Firebrand
Sideboard 15
4 Boros Reckoner
3 Skullcrack
2 Chained to the Rocks
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Fanatic of Mogis
1 StormBreath Dragon
1 Rod of Ruin[/deck]
No room for Boros charm at all? Have you changed your mind about this card since the Channel Fireball article?
There are a lot of control decks in my local meta, so I'm leaning towards
playing it for the sweeper defence.
In other news, I saw a guy on Channel Fireball recommending a Rakdos variant which uses Toil // Trouble, mainly to peg back Sphinx's Rev:
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles ... -standard/
Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:13 pm
by TBuzzsaw
I don't know if I'm late or whatnot, but is this someone from the board?
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdat ... ckID=60697
Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:20 pm
by Keftenk
Wow, now a list like that takes me back (by like 2 weeks lol; BTE and FFS)
Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:30 pm
by vundo
Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:43 pm
by magicdownunder
We may have a few other IQ winners beside vundo, Pulp happen to be most vocal about it.
So I repeat, any other winners of IQ and GPT please let me know
.
EDIT: I'm starting to believe it may just be Vundo and Pulp, but I could of sworn I read about other DtR players running these types of event in the clan thread.
Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 1:27 pm
by montu
He had Ooze and enough creatures, he wanted to activate vaults (block), Ooze (Block), the hydra get faltered by Chandra +1 damage he is on 2 - so he then (blocks) with Sylvan Caryatid and then tap before damage activation Ooze to gain one life he is back on 3 my Bird then only deals 2 so he'll be back on 1, then he'll swing the following turn to kill me.
Hitting the Shock was the only reason why I won.
grrr . . . I knew I was missing something. I did consider the Ooze, but I didn't catch the untapped land AND missed that he could have tapped the Sylvan. (That's what I get for watching the video in low-res).
I really enjoy these videos. I approach them like the chess solitaire puzzles, where you have to guess the next move.
I frequently find myself choosing different lines of play, which creates opportunity for reflection.
The decisions that have been hardest for me is knowing when to play
Chained to the Rock. Should I play it early and get early damage through or hang onto it for later threats? Watching your videos has helped me get a better handle on this.
Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 1:56 pm
by montu
Question: are there types of mtg deck/hand questions this type of sim is better at answering than others?
Well . . . here's a real world question that I'm going to look at:
I started playing the White version this week on MTGO, and really like it, so I'm planning on playing it this Friday.
In the main deck, I don't have 2
Temple of Triumph and 1
Pyrewild Shaman. Assuming I can't get them by Friday, what's the best substitution?
Q1: If I swap 2 Mountains for the Temples, how often will get stuck with a dead
Chained to the Rocks?
Q2: If I swap 1 Mountain and 1 Plains, how does that increase my chances of mulligan?
Q3: What are the
probabilities of a successful play if I swap the
Pyrewild Shaman with a 5-drop or a 4-drop.
Those are the types of questions I'll be asking.
Interesting Fact: I originally wrote the Monte Carlo routine to optimize my chances with a (casual)
Hunted Horror deck I built. I needed to have a
Leyline of Singularity in my opening hand since I didn't run any blue mana sources. I wanted to see the effect of having various copies of
Serum Powder on getting a successful opening hand.
Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 2:57 pm
by Tyrael
Well . . . here's a real world question that I'm going to look at:
I started playing the White version this week on MTGO, and really like it, so I'm planning on playing it this Friday.
In the main deck, I don't have 2
Temple of Triumph and 1
Pyrewild Shaman. Assuming I can't get them by Friday, what's the best substitution?
Q1: If I swap 2 Mountains for the Temples, how often will get stuck with a dead
Chained to the Rocks?
Q2: If I swap 1 Mountain and 1 Plains, how does that increase my chances of mulligan?
Boros Guildgate?
How do you guys feel about changing the FFS for Gore-House Chainwalkers in a control-heavy meta?
Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 3:27 pm
by montu
Well . . . here's a real world question that I'm going to look at:
I started playing the White version this week on MTGO, and really like it, so I'm planning on playing it this Friday.
In the main deck, I don't have 2
Temple of Triumph and 1
Pyrewild Shaman. Assuming I can't get them by Friday, what's the best substitution?
Q1: If I swap 2 Mountains for the Temples, how often will get stuck with a dead
Chained to the Rocks?
Q2: If I swap 1 Mountain and 1 Plains, how does that increase my chances of
mulligan?
Boros Guildgate?
The loss of tempo drives me nuts. (I don't mind as much with the Temple Scry 1.)
My hunch is with only 2
Chained to the Rocks MB, you can get away with 2 Mountains for the Temples. But after boarding, with a total of 4
Chained to the Rocks, you're probably right that having 2
Boros Guildgate would be the way to go.
I'll post the stats once I run them.
Posted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 3:39 pm
by Purp
He had Ooze and enough creatures, he wanted to activate vaults (block), Ooze (Block), the hydra get faltered by Chandra +1 damage he is on 2 - so he then (blocks) with Sylvan Caryatid and then tap before damage activation Ooze to gain one life he is back on 3 my Bird then only deals 2 so he'll be back on 1, then he'll swing the following turn to kill me.
Hitting the Shock was the only reason why I won.
grrr . . . I knew I was missing something. I did consider the Ooze, but I didn't catch the untapped land AND missed that he could have tapped the Sylvan. (That's what I get
for watching the video in low-res).
I really enjoy these videos. I approach them like the chess solitaire puzzles, where you have to guess the next move. I frequently find myself choosing different lines of play, which creates opportunity for reflection.
The decisions that have been hardest for me is knowing when to play
Chained to the Rock. Should I play it early and get early damage through or hang onto it for later threats? Watching your videos has helped me get a better handle on this.
In regards to holding chained, i think depends on your hand and your opponent. Do you have burn to remove their t2 wall? Do you have answer to a turn 4 DD or Stormbreath? In my top 4 jund match, I had a Chained in my hand since opener. Once I realized I couldnt remove his Ooze, I decided to chained it.
My favorite plays from this past weekends IQ are swinging a Phoenix into SBD, then FoTF to ping it twice and the opponent one and recur phoenix.