[Fedoras of Salvation] - White Knights ITT

[Helios]

Man, I sleep in and the world goes to shit. Wizards prints Lavinia, LP and his lady break up, and my co-worker is late when I'm not there.

Fine, I'll get up on time tomorrow.

@LP: Sorry to hear about that man, but it sounds like you're making the right decision. It takes a certain level of maturity to be in a relationship, and her ain't it.

And if liking asses and related activities makes you gay...well I guess I'm pretty gay.

Seconded. Gotta love a girl with a great ass.

Assuming she isn't crazy.

[hamfactorial]

[Helios]

[LP, of the Fires]

apparently Ari Lax wrote an article on red decks. I don't have premium, but I imagine it would be a fine read.

[Alex]

apparently Ari Lax wrote an article on red decks. I don't have premium, but I imagine it would be a fine read.

There's not really anything in it that we haven't already concluded.

[LP, of the Fires]

I suppose I'm not too surprised seeing as we are the cutting edge. In other news did anyone else thinks Ross Merriams gruul list from the SCG invitational was really good?

4 Arbor Elf
4 Gyre Sage
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Flinthoof Boar
1 Borderland Ranger
4 Hellrider
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
2 Wolfir Silverheart
2 Thundermaw Hellkite

4 Domri Rade

4 Bonfire of the Damned

22 Gruul Lands
1 Kessig

I REALLY liked EFro's PT deck and this is basically the faster 2-color version of it.

[redthirst]

I don't see a lot of reason to run Arbor Elf over Experiment One in that list, personally... but I really like Experiment One so I may be biased.

[Alex]

I don't see a lot of reason to run Arbor Elf over Experiment One in that list, personally... but I really like Experiment One so I may be biased.

Well, Wolfir Silverheart is pretty important to the deck, so I can certainly see why.

[Valdarith]

I suppose I'm not too surprised seeing as we are the cutting edge. In other news did anyone else thinks Ross Merriams gruul list from the SCG invitational was really good?

4 Arbor Elf
4 Gyre Sage
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Flinthoof Boar
1 Borderland Ranger
4 Hellrider
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
2 Wolfir Silverheart
2 Thundermaw Hellkite

4 Domri Rade

4 Bonfire of the Damned

22 Gruul Lands
1 Kessig

I REALLY liked EFro's PT deck and this is basically the faster 2-color version of it.

I am less than fond of Domri as a four-of. Why would someone do this? I guess if you were anticipating a control-heavy meta it'd make sense, but is that the case here?

[Alex]

He's also not horrid against reanimator, especially on the play.

[LP, of the Fires]

Hit's half the time, lets you clear the board of guys for hellrider beats. And I wuv him. Speaking of Domri, that is. Arbor Elf also makes more sense because you're trying to get bigger faster AND along with gyre sage, it gives you better bonfires.

[rcwraspy]

Similar reason why some lists run 4-of Thalia. If it's a card your deck almost needs to see, you make the sacrifice.

[Valdarith]

I just really don't like Domri. I still think he's bad enough as is. As a four-of? Terrible.

[Alex]

I just really don't like Domri. I still think he's bad enough as is. As a four-of? Terrible.

He's no Tibalt or anything, but he certainly is lost tempo, which makes me steer away from him anyway. Despite that he still provides card advantage if given enough time, and some decks give him enough time to do that.

[rcwraspy]

I just really don't like Domri. I still think he's bad enough as is. As a four-of? Terrible.

I understand that, definitely. But I do think it fits well in this deck. Particularly considering he MB'ed 4x Bonfire, Domri will give you that information so you can make your turn decisions knowing you'll miracle next turn or not.

[LP, of the Fires]

Crazy woman calls me saying she still likes me and wants to still hang out. I'm like, LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

Also, Domri in Gyre sage builds is typically used to immediately fight something and then force the opponent to deal with him before he starts building more CA in creature matches and excels in that role admirably.

[LP, of the Fires]

Finally looked at some of the spoiled DGM cards. Why does rakdos get a card that won't be relevant till all our other good 4 drops rotate but azorius gets broken ass mass detain? Da faq.

[Platypus]

Being testing a lot of the mono black vampire deck. Realised that the bad cards were the vampires, and that the control shell was really good. This leads me to:

[deck]
3 Obzedat, Ghost Council

3 Staff of Nin

2 Curse of Death's Hold
4 Lingering Souls
4 Mutilate
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Sever the Bloodline
4 Sign in Blood
3 Tragic Slip
4 Tribute to Hunger
1 Ultimate Price
4 Victim of Night

4 Godless Shrine
4 Isolated Chapel
3 Plains
14 Swamp
1 Vault of the Archangel

Sideboard
1 Curse of Death's Hold
4 Duress
2 Human Frailty
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Obzedat, Ghost Council
2 Rest in Peace
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Underworld Connections[/deck]

Really wanted to make Liliana work but its too hard to break symmetry.

I like
this one a lot, too bad I don't have the cards to try it out.

[Dodger]

Finally looked at some of the spoiled DGM cards. Why does rakdos get a card that won't be relevant till all our other good 4 drops rotate but azorius gets broken ass mass detain? Da faq.

Shit we're lucky Rakdos got something that might even be playable at all. Of course, for whatever reason UW has to always have the best shit. I thought not reprinting mana leak and some sort of ponder plus making all these uncounterable cards was a step into making UW control take a seat for a year or two. But nah they had to go and fuck it up. Can't have UW not on top for long.

[Alex]

Finally looked at some of the spoiled DGM cards. Why does rakdos get a card that won't be relevant till all our other good 4 drops rotate but azorius gets broken ass mass detain? Da faq.

My guess is that the detain guy will be unplayable in standard but be pretty cool in Modern for tapout lists. So hey, be happy!

[Kazekirimaru]

Good afternoon, folks. Just got home from work. Two hours sleep under me belt. Looking though all these spoilers...all the 4/4 is making me uneasy. I don't want to play in a format where Mizzium Mortars is the new Searing Spear.

Good job dodging the crazy bullet, LP.

I'll save my crazy ex stories for another time. I need a nap.

[redthirst]

Finally looked at some of the spoiled DGM cards. Why does rakdos get a card that won't be relevant till all our other good 4 drops rotate but azorius gets broken ass mass detain? Da faq.

Don't be talkin about my girl, now... them's fightin words.

[Colonel Nohman]

Azorius gets broken ass mass detain? Da faq.

Seems the most correct definition.

And if I can say what I think, I'm sorry for what happened, but to me you've made the right decision leaving her.

[Helios]

@Alex: I think judge judy will be a fine SB card, but she doesn't seem so hot in the main.

[windstrider]

Finally looked at some of the spoiled DGM cards. Why does rakdos get a card that won't be relevant till all our other good 4 drops rotate but azorius gets broken ass mass detain? Da faq.

Because they are scared of us.

[hamfactorial]

Anyone using her is required to say "welcome to the people's court" as their ETB trigger announcement.

[photodyer]

I suppose I'm not too surprised seeing as we are the cutting edge. In other news did anyone else thinks Ross Merriams gruul list from the SCG invitational was really good?

4 Arbor Elf
4 Gyre Sage
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Flinthoof Boar
1 Borderland Ranger
4 Hellrider
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
2 Wolfir Silverheart
2 Thundermaw Hellkite

4 Domri Rade

4 Bonfire of the Damned

22 Gruul Lands
1 Kessig

I REALLY liked EFro's PT deck and this is basically the faster 2-color version of it.

I posted the list this weekend when it came out but no one commented; I like it. My son has been playing Gruul since GTC and he's shifting towards this list. We had his list set as "go big&
quot; from 22 to 24 land bringing in 2 KWR to support hounds and the big bad wolfir, but he really liked having them in more often than not. The creature-based ramp is pretty sweet and diverse enough that getting one dude shot doesn't ruin your day. What he didn't like a first was starting G1 without spot removal burn, though he's starting to see how Domri telegraphing his Bonfires helps him more than the other guy.

-------------------------------

And that calling back and acting like nothing crazy happened and trying to just go on? That is total Land of Oz behavior (inside reference to borderline); she's not just immature, she has totally irrational fears of abandonment that will drive her to do totally insane things. Lock your freakin' doors, even if she suddenly starts hinting at letting you try that "back door". It is a road straight to hell in this case.

Mine was a slightly different flavor than redthirst, Alex and Dan's; more middle of the pipe on both ends as I didn't
get either the over-the-top wild sex package or the homicidal rages. My ex had obviously suffered such extreme emotional abuse as a child that her default was self-loathing. So instead of going after me and doing big, overt stuff, she was a master of hiding her crazy from others and would go suicidal in her ravings. She was totally committed to denial of reality, so the only times she physically assaulted me were to try to stop me from picking up a cup and proving she was hiding alcohol.

@redthirst - Don't even get yourself deluded that the Witch is your bitch...I got my playset ordered so that I have a centerpiece for building a (probably jank) release week deck. You have your godlike beauty...you can't hog all the fun cards,too!

[photodyer]

Finally looked at some of the spoiled DGM cards. Why does rakdos get a card that won't be relevant till all our other good 4 drops rotate but azorius gets broken ass mass detain? Da faq.

My guess is that the detain guy will be unplayable in standard but be pretty cool in Modern for tapout lists. So hey, be happy!

If by "unplayable" you mean shoehorned into every Bant and UW midrange deck at my LGS for the express purpose of shutting the aggro players down, then yes, she is by all means unplayable. Seriously...she dodges all burn and comes underneath
Selesnya Charm, and her ETB totally locks down any aggro deck. Compare it to Hellkite...he now looks like a little salamander in relation to board impact. Even decks running black removal are going to suffer the tempo loss since her ETB will trigger as long as she resolves. The card gives aggro two flying middle fingers...it's just wrong. Thanks to it, we will have to endure another 2nd half of the season dominated by midrange and UWx...unless by some slim chance they print a foil.

Sorry, Alex; I know you know competitive Magic one hell of a lot better than I, but this is another Kor Firewalker-esque slap in the face to aggro and it shouldn't have happened.

[Alex]

Finally looked at some of the spoiled DGM cards. Why does rakdos get a card that won't be relevant till all our other good 4 drops rotate but azorius gets broken ass mass detain? Da faq.

My guess is that the detain guy will be unplayable in standard but be pretty cool in Modern for tapout lists. So hey, be happy!

If by "unplayable" you mean shoehorned into every Bant and UW midrange deck at my LGS
for the express purpose of shutting the aggro players down, then yes, she is by all means unplayable. Seriously...she dodges all burn and comes underneath Selesnya Charm, and her ETB totally locks down any aggro deck. Compare it to Hellkite...he now looks like a little salamander in relation to board impact. Even decks running black removal are going to suffer the tempo loss since her ETB will trigger as long as she resolves. The card gives aggro two flying middle fingers...it's just wrong. Thanks to it, we will have to endure another 2nd half of the season dominated by midrange and UWx...unless by some slim chance they print a foil.

Sorry, Alex; I know you know competitive Magic one hell of a lot better than I, but this is another Kor Firewalker-esque slap in the face to aggro and it shouldn't have happened.

This card does nothing to aggressive players because it doesn't even come down before turn 4 and by then an aggro player already has you
towards the end of the clock.

Maybe if she cost 5 I'd feel differently since she slams down off of a single Farseek, but at 6 I say "Eh."

[zemanjaski]

The deck is eerily similar to what I posted on MTGS in the clan thread in terms of the control base. The win cons are just different and, IMO, stronger.

Do you think 4 Mutilate is correct running eight non-Swamps?

It isn't great, but against aggro decks, mutilate for 2 or 3 should be sufficient. Against midrange decks, you have more time to find more swamps, so in theory it is OK. Obviously, there is a non-zero number of games where you get burned ~ not having Day of Judgment in the format is pretty rough on this type of deck. Terminus is worth considering, but without the ability to draw cards on your opponent's turn, it is very unappealing. Barter in Blood, as suggested by Aesnath is an alternative, but that card plays SO badly against Reanimator, which is a very popular deck at the moment. If the format was more aggro or control instead, Barter starts to look
much better.

I'd probably still play Vampire Nighthawk, sometimes in a shell like this you'll just resolve him and then beat them down over the course of a few turns, which seems like it would smooth everything out.

Also Bloodgift Demon seems good in some number. I get that they die to Mutilate, but honestly just 1 or 2 turns with Bloodgift out puts you pretty far ahead on its own.

Nighthawk is a trap card IMO. Against aggro, it aspires to be Tribute to Hunger ~ a removal spell that gains life. Except, Nighthawk gives them something to do with their removal which is otherwise dead against you. Against control, it is a 2-power clock which is pretty unexciting and would be amongst your worst cards. It doesn't seem particular interesting against midrange either. I am not saying Tribute to Hunger is great, but there is enough upside to make it a better card (being an instant, gaining more than 2 life sometimes, not trading for removal in their hand etc).
I think your point about Nighthawk at least been a win-con has some merit; but it is a very poor win-condition at best and tends to enable a lot of cards in your opponent's deck that are otherwise really bad against you.

Bloodgift Demon is a good card, probably worth testing; as covered by Valdarith, it would fill a similar deckspace to Staff of Nin and right now, Staff seems much better (although it is a much slower clock of course). Right now, the deck's win conditions are absurdly hard to interact favourably with, and I like that as a theme of the deck.

Nice list! My only concern is Slaughter Games naming OGC. If you can't duress it away you lose.

No, you don't. You really, really don't. I killed enough people with the garbage Mono Black Vampire deck with just Staff of Nin because I couldn't keep a threat on the board. Also, Sorin is in the board for a reason

Curse of Death's Hold is pretty mediocre, easily the worst card in the list. Literally the only relevance it has is "you won't die to dork dork dork craterhoof now," which seems like a bad reason to play it.

Sweeper or several point removals into Curse is game against most aggro decks. Once you stack them you're soft or hard locking a lot of decks. The card is very powerful.

[Kazekirimaru]

Anyone using her is required to say "welcome to the people's court" as their ETB trigger announcement.

And then all the other < 4 CMC creatures "sit down" because court is in session.

Holy shit, That's flavor!

[Christen]

Lavinia is going to be painful until Restoration Angel rotates out.

[LP, of the Fires]

The deck has trouble handling planeswalkers, that's for sure. The jund matchup in particular seemed tough. With most of there creatures immune to victim of night, you can just lose to Olivia.

[Aesnath]

Finally looked at some of the spoiled DGM cards. Why does rakdos get a card that won't be relevant till all our other good 4 drops rotate but azorius gets broken ass mass detain? Da faq.

My guess is that the detain guy will be unplayable in standard but be pretty
cool in Modern for tapout lists. So hey, be happy!

If by "unplayable" you mean shoehorned into every Bant and UW midrange deck at my LGS for the express purpose of shutting the aggro players down, then yes, she is by all means unplayable. Seriously...she dodges all burn and comes underneath Selesnya Charm, and her ETB totally locks down any aggro deck. Compare it to Hellkite...he now looks like a little salamander in relation to board impact. Even decks running black removal are going to suffer the tempo loss since her ETB will trigger as long as she resolves. The card gives aggro two flying middle fingers...it's just wrong. Thanks to it, we will have to endure another 2nd half of the season dominated by midrange and UWx...unless by some slim chance they print a foil.

Sorry, Alex; I know you know competitive Magic one hell of a lot better than I, but this is another Kor Firewalker-esque slap in the face to aggro and it shouldn't have
happened.

This card does nothing to aggressive players because it doesn't even come down before turn 4 and by then an aggro player already has you towards the end of the clock.

Maybe if she cost 5 I'd feel differently since she slams down off of a single Farseek, but at 6 I say "Eh."

The B costs five. She'll come down turn four plenty of times. I have a feeling she's a legitimate issue for red based aggro.

[zemanjaski]

The deck has trouble handling planeswalkers, that's for sure. The jund matchup in particular seemed tough. With most of there creatures immune to victim of night, you can just lose to Olivia.

In my experience, Rakdos's Return is the only card you really care about. You have Slip or Mutilate or Tribute for Olivia.

[Aesnath]

The deck has trouble handling planeswalkers, that's for sure. The jund matchup in particular seemed tough. With most of there creatures immune to victim of night, you can just lose to Olivia.

In my experience, Rakdos's Return is the only card you really care about. You have Slip or Mutilate or Tribute for Olivia.

Now that you mention it, how has tribute to hunger been?

[zemanjaski]

Really good. You really appreciate the extra lifegain. You can randomly do cool things like snipe EOT restoration angels, attacking Obzedat or Angel's of Serenity with the trigger on the stack ~ and while your other removal does this as well, having ~9 instant speed removals is a big game against a lot (most decks). Gaining chunks of life here and there is still very relevant against control; you're leaning heavily on Underworld Connections to get ahead, so a bit of a buffer against Angel beats or GoST out of the board is very nice.

[Helios]

Photo, I really don't think she's that big of a deal. She's powerful, sure, but America can't bring her out before T5, and they generally want to Verdict on 4 anyway. Bant's the only thing that really gets to use her effectively, and Bant isn't even that great atm. She's fine in Esper and America, but not spectacular.

I think that JJ is good, but nowhere near the "Death to Aggro!" being shouted from every rooftop. We'll just have to adapt.

[Speedbump]

Platypus: The PM wouldn't let me send this through, so I'm posting here for everyone to critique.
Alrighty, the Meta explanations.

Metagame Decks

---

Jund: Should be a straightforward win. Most of the losses are when a questionable hand is kept, and then ripped by discard. Post-sideboard, it's still a good match-up. Jund is reasonably fair, so the only way they can deal with you is if they get a Deathrite Shaman live, or manage to rip your hand apart.

UR Delver: Reasonably good match-up, they're a Burn deck with less burn so they can run counterspells. You should be able to abuse the fact that they run two colours, so you get to keep cards like Price of Progress game 2+3. Kill any Delver of Secrets in play, and you should be fine. Use your sorceries first, and make sure to keep 2 [card]
Mountains[/card] untapped in case of their Chain Lightning. Be wary of them doing the same.

Mono-R Burn: If you're the better player, or if the opponent takes a lot of damage from fetches, then you should win. Knowledge of Stack interactions is crucial, and tread carefully. A critical point in this match-up is when either player is on 10 or less. You can basically die to stack resolution or running out of gas. Like UR Delver, use your sorceries first, and make sure to keep 2 Mountains untapped in case of their Chain Lightning. Be wary of them doing the same.

Fish: Even to slightly favoured. There are games where you get wrecked by Hymn to Tourach into Liliana of the Veil, but for the most part, you should be fine with a more creature centric build than what I run. If this is the Merfolk type of Fish, the match-up is much more
favoured. Just burn their threats, and keep enough behind to dome them.

Junk: Reasonably favoured match-up. Like Jund, the only way you lose game 1 is if they manage to get a live Deathrite Shaman or Liliana of the Veil. Dark Confidant is a card you should kill if they're high on life, and leave be if they're low on life.

UB Reanimator: Bad to unwinnable match-up Game 1, make sure to side in Faerie Macabre. Wait until they've chosen their target, but not resolved the spell; then you can pull the trigger on Faerie Macabre. Too early, and they just reanimate Faerie Macabre. If this version of Reanimator runs Forece of will/Daze, then Vexing Shusher is ok.

Death & Taxes: Match-up is quite favourable. Being
able to deal with most of their creatures while racing them is quite nice. If you keep a slow hand, you do lose to Mangara of Condor shenanigans. Get rid of any Mother of Runes and other threat creatures when they come out, and you can survive the rest.

Robots: Somewhat bad match-up Game 1, could be ok games 2+3 depending on sideboard. Trinisphere and other cards like it are bad news for you. 3-4 Smash to Smithereens can help the match-up, although Chalice of the Void can be awkward to play around.

Esper Control: Match-up is fine if you have a strong hand, unfavourable otherwise. The ability for Price of Progress to run wild is always a nice feature, but most of the time, you'll have to try and counter their Stoneforge Mystics with removal. If you can start racing them, do so
before Batterskull ruins your day.

High Tide Storm: High Tide has a slightly quicker clock than you, so there will be games where you just lose. However, you can kill them when they have Brainfreeze or X-draw spell on the stack. If you see them untapped, wait until they attempt to go off. This is when they tap out for Time Spiral. Game 2, side in cards like Red Elemental Blast, and point at their Time Spirals.

BUG Control: Reasonably favourable match-up for the first few turns, you can just lose to multiple discard effects, backed up by a counter on your Price of Progress. If you can race them before Tarmogoyf is live, or Tombstalker is active, then you should be fine.

Maverick: Pretty easy match-up. Deal with any problem creatures, and win with Burn
spells to the dome. Thalia, Guardian of Thraben can get quite awkward, as well as Scavenging Ooze if they [card]Green Sun's Zenith[/card] for it. Most of their creatures aren't a problem, and you should be able to win off of swinging with 1-2 creatures. Knight of the Reliquary is a bit of a problem for you though.

UW Miracles: Quite a bad match-up. If the Miracles player also has included Rest in Peace+energy Field+Helm of Awakening, you just lose. The only way you can win is if you can race before they stabilize with Counterflux+[card]Sensei's Divining Top[/card]. A few Vexing Shusher does help this match-up, but it's not one that you can win often.

Show and Tell: About as bad as UW Miracles. You
have to hope that they whiff a little bit with their Show and Tell target. If they manage to drop a threat before you can race them the turn after, then you lose. Also, if they drop Omniscience, you lose as well. Post-sideboard, being able to use Red Elemental Blast can help a little, but it still is an awkward match.

RUG Midrange: I haven't had much experience with RUG Midrange. I will assume that if you don't race them, cards like Thrun, the Last Troll will ruin your day.

Let me know if I've missed anything, as well as if you want me to help test some of these decks against your Burn deck. I think I wrote a comprehensive list, although I will jump on the Mumble server to explain some Burn play while I playtest if you want.

Lavinia is fucked. Looks like I'm playing UWr Control all of Dragon's Maze until Theros is released.

[Dane]

Hmmm...I'm trying to figure out what I want to preorder. With Gatecrash, I won big by preordering Reckoners, and broke even with Frontline Medics...

This time, I'm thinking the Rakdos and MAYBE Azorius champs, and I think I'll grab the Gruul champ for giggles. Still undecided though. Any thoughts?