[Primer] Boros Burn

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:56 am

Fair point LP. I usually go the other way, going into a more grindy or slow-paced game after boarding, not sure why; usually I find my opponent is expecting a blitz again and recofigures their deck accordingly, so I can outplay them with my choices.

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:57 am

OK, seriously going to try this online:

2 Blind Obedience
2 Chained to the Rocks
2 Glaring Spotlight
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 Mutavault
3 Young Pyromancer
3 Viashino Firstblade

*would run +1 Mortars and +1 Young Pyromancer in paper, but fuck hexproof right off.

DXI-Edge · Postby **DXI-Edge** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:58 am

Firedrinker Satyr is fine better against Control because it allows us to continue what we're doing. Crush Control decks with little to no ease, allowing us to rest our brains for other more important matchups.

On a more serious note, Firedrinker Satyr allows us to curve out vs. UW/x, and is makes the matchup that much better for us without having to work terrible hard to keep it as a good matchup. It also doesnt require us to have burn in hand, the same reasoning people are saying not to use Firedancer.

I can see arguments for both, and I will test Young Pyromancer vs. UW, but Firedrinker adds so much pressure on his own its unreal.

Firedrinker is better for beating them down, is better on turns 1-3, and it fits in the curve easier than another 2 drop.

Casting a Pyromancer on turn 3 with no burn up and they kill it, they timewalked you. Casting Firedrinker satyr with burn up, at least you can do SOMETHING.

DXI-Edge · Postby **DXI-Edge** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:59 am

I still dont like the sideboard Mutavault. Would almost always be better as the 4th Pyromancer/Firedrinker

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:00 am

ZEM ANGRY.

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:00 am

Not at anyone in particular, just hexproof players in general.

Valdarith · Postby **Valdarith** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:02 am

YP is more flexible. You can reasonably bring it in against aggro decks like Wx and get a ton of value. Good against control even though they play Jace. Your burn spells are usually enough to put him away as soon as he hits the board so he's not as much of an issue as he was in the earlier Pyro builds.

One thing to consider is that if this deck becomes more popular, is YP$ just better than Ash Zealot? It's definitely better against GR and the mirror, maybe better vs control, and probably a push vs Mono Black. A lot easier to cast too.

Purp · Postby **Purp** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:06 am

Ash is sooo good vs Wx or GW decks, the combat tricks alone are too good.

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:09 am

I agree that Firedrinker is better vs. Control, 100%. But YP$ has applicability in OTHER matchups too. I'd be OK sacrificing some of my 70%+ matchup vs. Esper to improve some of the others (eg: BW Midrange). Firedrinker isn't all upside either; it sometimes can't be cast on Turn 1, and its the worst card to have Azorius Charmed. YP being 1R makes our Turn 2 difficulties lessened also.

I played against conrol with with YP a lot and it is better than you would think without playing with it.

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:09 am

I like Zealot against the online meta right now, but YMMV.

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:16 am

I basically, I am thinking of giving up a few % points against control to gain them in several other matchups.

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:21 am

Online, control is 12% of the meta, and I am ~60% vs UW and ~70% vs. Esper. Having YP$ would be relevant in about 40% of matchups. That's not enough to maindeck the card, but it means that it is an interesting SB card to atleast give a chance.

It might also be better vs. GR than I think; with Blind Obedience and Chained, I think the tempo of the card might be quite good.

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:24 am

Also, Jace isn't good against a lone YP. Yes, it blanks your damage, but then they're spending 4 mana, tapping out and a card to prevent your 2 drop from working. That's massively in our favour. How effective has Jace been any other time you have a single 2 power creature in play? Not at all? Yup. Remember, the 1/1s are free, them being wrathed is not[/i] a 2-for-1; those burn spells were always going upstairs anyway, so they are entirely free value.

Purp · Postby **Purp** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:25 am

I will agree that it could be better vs GR than we initially expect. It seems xenagod is falling somewhat out of favor, so the only trample that is super relevant would be Ghor Clan

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:29 am

Which we already can't do anything about.

Against any deck where Firedancer would be good, YP is the same but safer; but there are a bunch of decks where Firedancer is bad that YP is great (it wrecks MBC).

Purp · Postby **Purp** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:30 am

I am not sure if I like it vs Mono B, but I do like YP$ vs BW.

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:35 am

Why? They going to Blight your tokens? OK. Cool. The card is basically ridiculous vs. Desecration Demon, and you can do combat tricks against their other stuff. 1/1 beat down adds up and most lists (online) have cut Drown.

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:38 am

It also makes their Devour Flesh sad.

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:38 am

None of this has anything to do with me wanting to use Asuka tokens. Nothing at all.

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:42 am

I see that Pendi agrees with me.

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:42 am

I wonder how insane all the lurkers think I am.

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:43 am

Feedback I am getting from the SCG is that the the top 16 players pretty much agreed that the winning decklist was substantially worse than ours, so that's cool.

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:52 am

I would be testing right now if MODO wasn't down...

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:17 am

I was not kidding about 2x Glaring Spotlight for mtgo either, hexproof can get fucked.

DXI-Edge · Postby **DXI-Edge** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:38 am

So lets say Young Pyromancer is played in the sideboard.

What do we take out vs. BW to accomodate that we are now bringing in Blind Obedience, Mizzium Mortars and Firstblade AND Young Pyromancer?

Are we cutting Chained and Ash Zealot vs. them? I'm curious what is deemed bad, and we cant cut too much burn if we wanna play Pyromancer.

I guess against BW we cut Shock, Searing Blood and 2 Chained for 3 Firstblade, 2 Mizzium Mortars 4 Pyromancer?

zenbitz · Postby **zenbitz** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:41 am

I don't understand YP in the _sideboard_. It seems fine against everyone, maybe extra good against DD.
We either run 8 creatures or 12 (post board). I guess vs non-black control you bring in +3 VFB +4 FDS and don't take zealots out, so that's 15 dudes.
Most games we are running 4x Pheonix and 4x something else (usually zealots). We might (in some configs) bring in 2-3 Sparkies if we need to race - but against Green the zealots come out because they are blanked by carytid.

We are keeping VFB vs. MBD and control. So which matchups is YP$ > FDS, that we would normally bring in FDS (ie., Ux control, maybe BWx)?
I think you just argued that it's no WORSE than FDS, but you didn't present a case that it's better against UW/Esper, in fact I think you were saying that you were willing to give up a few points.

SO - what I am not getting - what matchups is YP$ > AZ? Green? We are already
bringing in 2xBO 2x Chained, 2x Mortars (If not more). We drop 3 shock 4 zealots. +Sparktrooper if we have it. What are we cutting for Pyromancer vs. Green?

I guess... (never having played the card) Pyromancer > AZ vs. MBD? This match up is tough to board because if they have white we need mortars for BBoV + chained for demons. If we cut too many cheap burn spells we can get packratted... I guess YP works there. But better than 2/2 Firststrike Haste?
EDIT DXI asks very similar questions during my post! Not sure if that makes me smart or him dumb.

DXI-Edge · Postby **DXI-Edge** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:42 am

using this deck as template

[deck]
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix

9 Mountain
3 Boros Guildgate
3 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph

2 Chained to the Rocks
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Searing Blood
3 Shock
4 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix

Sideboard
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Spark Trooper
3 Viashino Firstblade
2 Blind Obedience
2 Chained to the Rocks
2 Mizzium Mortars
[/deck]

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:52 am

Its hard to appreciate YP$ without playing with the card. Its absurdly powerful when you had ~14 spells in PyroRed...this deck runs 26+.

It creates a sub-game - how quickly can you kill the Pyromancer? It has to be quickly, or you just lose. This even goes for MBC. If they don't have a terror right away (maybe they have used it aleady, or maybe they have an edict) then they mostly just lose. That's not me exaggerating either; PyroRed had an 80+ MBC matchup. Now, it gets harder because they have Bile Blight for your tokens...but that's not great for them either, is it?

Before I talk detailed sideboarding (which guys by now know, I don't *really* like to give advice on sideboarding, or building sideboards. I usually list my 60 without a sideboard because my approach to deck construction is typically very different), how was everyone finding VFB against MBC? OK? Good? Great? That will help inform our answer for
sideboard approach to that matchup.

RE: Spark Trooper. Kind of gone off him personally.

DXI-Edge · Postby **DXI-Edge** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:58 am

Forgive me, wasn't asking for specific plans.

Was more asking which cards were bad in which matchups, and since we're discussing that was not pleased with VFB vs. MBD.

I will try YP on your call. Havent let me down before.

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 7:15 am

Sorry man, I misunderstood you. To explain more fully, usually, my sideboard plans are aimed at creating board states that I thrive in; extremely complicated and grindy with lots of room to go wrong; that's where I outplay people postboard. Usually they'll indulge me too; because "my deck has to have a better endgame than the red deck!" and postboard games are slower than Game 1s. That sort of approach isn't for everyone, or even most players.

Regarding MBC. I like VFB very much, if my opponent is good enough to take out Lifebane Zombie, which is terrible vs. burn. Most aren't, so VFB becomes a liability. In terms of cards that underperform, Shock is the biggest offender (doesn't kill enough), then Magma Jet (same). Because Searing Blood is so good, you just can't run too many spells that only kill x/2s post board.

DXI-Edge · Postby **DXI-Edge** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 7:24 am

I would argue that searing blood is worse than magma jet.

Magma jet has more oppurtunities to be cast with other spells in a turn than Searing Blood does, and on top of that Magma Jet digs, and hits the face directly.

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 7:24 am

So, if we're bringing in YP$ against Bx decks, I want Ash Zealot too to eat the first removal spell, along with Phoenix, so I can slam a YP$ + spell later for value. As long as you have ~20 spells, the card is certifiably ridiculous. It was crushing with ~14 spells in PyroRed...

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 7:25 am

I can't fault your logic. I found Searing Blood to be really good, but my opponent's kept going all in on pack rat like numbskulls. Against better opponent's, you're probably right. I've definitely lost games where I have drawn searing blood late that I may have won had it being Magma Jet (scry 2 is absurd).

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 7:43 am

YP is more flexible. You can reasonably bring it in against aggro decks like Wx and get a ton of value. Good against control even though they play Jace. Your burn spells are usually enough to put him away as soon as he hits the board so he's not as much of an issue as he was in the earlier Pyro builds.

One thing to consider is that if this deck becomes more popular, is YP$ just better than Ash Zealot? It's definitely better against GR and the mirror, maybe better vs control, and probably a push vs Mono Black. A lot easier to cast too.

Listen to this man.

Lightning_Dolt · Postby **Lightning_Dolt** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 7:55 am

I don't think it's what I want to be doing against any deck at the moment.

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:40 am

Fighting for inconsequential value is exactly what I want to be doing at all times.

NerdBoyWonder · Postby **NerdBoyWonder** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:35 am

Sorry man, I misunderstood you. To explain more fully, usually, my sideboard plans are aimed at creating board states that I thrive in; extremely complicated and grindy with lots of room to go wrong; that's where I outplay people postboard. Usually they'll indulge me too; because "my deck has to have a better endgame than the red deck!" and postboard games are slower than Game 1s. That sort of approach isn't for everyone, or even most players.

Regarding MBC. I like VFB very much, if my opponent is good enough to take out Lifebane Zombie, which is terrible vs. burn. Most aren't, so VFB becomes a liability. In terms of cards that underperform, Shock is the biggest offender (doesn't kill enough), then Magma Jet (same). Because Searing Blood is so good,
you just can't run too many spells that only kill x/2s post board.

Most MBC I've played I have boarded out Zealots bringing in Chains and something else because my opponents tend to keep in removal. Then again all my opponents mistaken the deck as RDW until after the match is over. With the deck showing up everywhere I believe VFB may be the correct call now. Just from my experience though from playing MBC players is that they will leave removal in so VFB may be a liability.

RedNihilist · Postby **RedNihilist** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:33 am

I'm not sure of YP$, but I HATE Firedrinker so I'm sold.
Also, Asuka Elementals FTW.

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:52 am

Felt good to be back.

LaZerBurn · Postby **LaZerBurn** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 12:08 pm

2 very familiar looking Burn lists in the top 16 in Buenos Aires http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/a ... /welcome#0

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[Primer] Boros Burn

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