How About Them Trades, Eh?

[Helios]

This post count rule only applies to creating a trade thread, correct?

I believe trading in general.

Well I'll be breaking that rule, I've already initiated trades with two clan members. The best part is that the fact that I will have 2 successful trades is totally irrelevant to my reliability as a trader.

[Second Harkius]

Like, what's the difference between my 250 now and the 500 posts I'll have eventually?

About 250 posts.

[Second Harkius]

I mean if you guys want to push back against a rule that isn't even in place then go for it I guess.

500 posts is not some huge imposition. In fact it's not a big deal at all when compared to the 8000 word MTGS rulebook.

[( G_R )]

Well, the thing is that some (most?) sites want to draw members because of their trading scene, but in our case (and this is my personal opinion) our site merely wants to provide a trading facility to the members of our community. The post limit basically says that people can trade here as long as they are already part of the community, people merely interested in trading, but taking no part of the rest of the site can find other avenues for their potentially risky business.

Like I said, just my Q0.02

Just thought I'd repost this.

[Second Harkius]

If you guys have a way to promote community involvement and protect traders from rippers then please toss your suggestions out in this thread.

[redthirst]

My opinion was that since this place is promoted as "where the big boys play" that we wouldn't need to do quite so much hand-holding...

[Second Harkius]

I mean we here at DTR welcomed you all with open arms, made threads / subforums for all of your clan needs, and basically said "have fun"

One small requirement of a post count limit before trading is pretty reasonable.

[Second Harkius]

My opinion was that since this place is promoted as "where the big boys play" that we wouldn't need to do quite so much hand-holding...

If one post count requirement = "so much hand holding" then I question what you expected out of this site in the first place

[redthirst]

Do what you want, but making a post number be a requirement to do something that anyone can do anywhere else is not going to promote new membership - it's going to make people go "I can't trade until I have how many posts? Fuck this."

Also, post number means nothing on a message board and it means even less on one with no anti spam rule.

I'm sure it will motivate scammers to go elsewhere - my opinion is that'll it'll motivate anyone else interested in trading to go elsewhere too.

If all you want a trade forum for is so that already established members can trade, then don't set up a trade forum. We can trade with people we already know just fine - as Helios pointed out.

[Second Harkius]

Also, post number means nothing on a message board and it means even less on one with no anti spam rule.

I'm sure it will motivate scammers to go elsewhere - my opinion is that'll it'll motivate anyone else interested in trading to go elsewhere too.

If the number means nothing why is it even an issue?

This rule, any post count rule really, would be put in place to A) protect the userbase from rippers and B) cultivate community participation.


If a poster ragequits the site because there is one small requirement to protect them, I hope they never go on a rollercoaster that requires seatbelts.

[( G_R )]

This post count rule only applies to creating a trade thread, correct?

I believe trading in general.

Well I'll be breaking that rule, I've already initiated trades with two clan members. The best part is that the fact that I will have 2 successful trades is totally irrelevant to my reliability as a trader.

People can do what they want in private, at their own risk. This site has seen trades among
friends before you guys came in here. The thing is that if we are going to provide an avenue for public trading, we want to set some rules and requirements to do so, because we want it to be something for our members, not something to draw NEW members. And we don't want to give the rippers a field day here. Where we set the bar on the post count (and even the limit itself) should still be debatable, I'd say that 100 posts is too little, 1000 is a bit too high... 500 seems about right, but I could consider lowering that a bit.

And the fact that I have over 1000 posts matters little for me being pro or against the limit, since lol I don't trade stuff over the internet ever.

[Thrillho]

having a system in place to facilitate trading is in and of itself an act of hand holding. if we're going to have a system in place, then we should have one that protects users from getting robbed, or we shouldn't have one at all.

edit because the thread is preventing me from posting and i am reading the post:
we're not a trading community. if someone is not going to join us because we want you to participate in the community before engaging users in stealing their cards, there's no reason you can't do that on MOTL or MTGS.

i thought the point of having a system in the first place is to demotivate scammers? like, if you're here JUST FOR THE COOL TRADING OMG why?

[Sir Sapphire the 3rd]

My opinion was that since this place is promoted as "where the big boys play" that we wouldn't need to do quite so much hand-holding...

Wait... Trying top promote Community and not festerpits by a simple rule of 500 Posts before your allowed to trade is hand holding?
Lets remember the thoughts of Trading weren't even considered when the site was created.

Seriously HOW HARD IS 500?

The site allows posts to count everywhere.
The site is very laid back with the rules.
Would you want 20 people that do nothing but BUMPS and sits in trades all day OR 10 people that are social and might like to do trades later when they feel comfy on the site.

Plus Post limit for entry frees up a TON of resources to do better work then sit and play
babysitter 20 hours of the day.

[Second Harkius]

Our site will never be as big as MTGS. They have an 8 year head start and a bunch of loud 12 year olds babbling in every subforum.

We are trying to create a moderately sized but efficient website that caters to the "serious" MTG player but also an atmosphere of looser moderation.

Frankly, any poster who'd ragequit this site over a rule designed to protect them from getting ripped is someone we don't want here anyway.

[Second Harkius]

i thought the point of having a system in the first place is to demotivate scammers? like, if you're here JUST FOR THE COOL TRADING OMG why?

If someone comes here only to trade, they were probably going to be selfish / antisocial in their posting habits anyway.

This site did start out as "MTGCommunity"

[Second Harkius]

Isn't the idea of "post freely and get rewards" the exact opposite of hand holding?

[Sir Sapphire the 3rd]

Also to put into perspective. Took me about 3ish months to get 500 Posts and that is with a very slow start as to being shy. So An easy month to average people now that there is a lot more to go on here.
Is it so wrong to not want to deal with scammers with a simple 1 rule that can kill so many of them.

[Thrillho]

why not instead of rules on the forum we just set up an account to send people on the forum to other people's houses to beat them up for breaking the rules we don't have

[Second Harkius]

My opinion was that since this place is promoted as "where the big boys play" that we wouldn't need to do quite so much hand-holding...

Plus Post limit for entry frees up a TON of resources to do better work then sit and play babysitter 20 hours of the day.

Exactly. If you want an overzealous trade mod breathing down your neck because you bumped a thread 5 minutes early, well, MTGS offers that in spades.

This would be one (1) uno (I repeat: one) requirement that anyone could
meet eventually, wouldn't require a team of neckbeard mods, and would protect established community members from getting ripped by "Johnny Just Registered"

[Sir Sapphire the 3rd]

My opinion was that since this place is promoted as "where the big boys play" that we wouldn't need to do quite so much hand-holding...

Plus Post limit for entry frees up a TON of resources to do better work then sit and play babysitter 20 hours of the day.

Exactly. If you want an overzealous trade mod breathing down your neck because you bumped a thread 5 minutes early, well, MTGS offers that
in spades.

This would be one (1) uno (I repeat: one) requirement that anyone could meet eventually, wouldn't require a team of neckbeard mods, and would protect established community members from getting ripped by "Johnny Just Registered"

This also means less mods needed
Which goes into less internal issues
Which goes into Quality over quantity
which means we don't repeat mistakes elsewhere.

Something I am very for.

[Second Harkius]

I bet the MTGS mods are laughing their asses off at us right now.

"This is why we don't open up our discussions to the userbase! Just look at those DTR guys!"

[redthirst]

Post count means nothing in the sense that it makes the user any more trustworthy or that they've contributed anything - it's still an annoying amount of work compared to what you have to do to set up a trade account anywhere else.

Spam, the rollercoaster metaphore would be more accurate if it was like this: One ride has two lines - the first goes straight to the ride with no wait and you can ride immediately with all the safety gear required (which is more than enough if you don't do anything stupid) - the second stretches out over a mile and the wait time is 5 hours, but you'll get a bike helmet to wear on the ride (which doesn't really help except in a very small % of situations) - which line will you go through?

It doesn't matter how minor of an inconvenience it is - you don't attract members by making them jump through annoying hoops that no one else requires.

I honestly think the site will be better off
without a trade thread than with one that will exclude new members and make them feel unwelcome (you want proof that will be the case? Read this thread).

[Second Harkius]

It doesn't matter how minor of an inconvenience it is - you don't attract members by making them jump through annoying hoops that no one else requires.

Yes, and look where that got mtgs. Thousands of posters, dozens of rippers, and maybe 20? actual deck strategists.

[Second Harkius]

Sure, we could attract more people by loosening our standards but then we'd be MTGS.

[Second Harkius]

I honestly think the site will be better off without a trade thread than with one that will exclude new members and make them feel unwelcome (you want proof that will be the case? Read this thread).

The post count rule is designed to encourage participation. How is that making someone feel unwelcome?

If someone joins with the intention to never post outside their trade thread, clearly they don't care very much about this site or anyone else on it

[Second Harkius]

I mean I am surprised you FoS guys are irritated at this proposal since you saw firsthand how crappy it is to A) be on a forum with a million rules and B) be surrounded by a lower caliber of poster.

This one rule is designed to counteract both!

[Thrillho]

The point I think you're not understanding is that we're not a trading community and people shouldn't be joining our forum on the merits of "you can trade here," because that's not our primary driver. Trading should be a perk for established members who are at least known enough around the community where someone can be comfortable doing a deal with them over the internet without ever seeing them IRL.

I don't understand how having perks for members makes people feel excluded. Should people feel excluded from the community because they're not allowed in the mod lounge? In your private subforum for your clan? No, there's an entire other community that isn't that that people participate in.

People join MOTL because they're attracted to trading. MOTL is a community about magic card sales and trading.

[redthirst]

Seriously HOW HARD IS 500?

Not hard at all... just annoying and unnecessary.

King Spam, how many of your 4500 posts are devoted to quality MTG related strategy?

I guess I just don't equate quantity with quality.

Having 500+ posts =/= being a quality poster. Having this requirement will not promote quality posts. It will promote quantity of posts.

So instead of having 2000 people posting 10 inane things a day, you'll have 200 people posting 100 inane things a day - that's not a step up.

[Second Harkius]

Seriously HOW HARD IS 500?

Not hard at all... just annoying and unnecessary.

King Spam, how many of your 4500 posts are devoted to quality MTG related strategy?

I guess I just don't equate quantity with quality.

I am here for the community and the people I enjoy talking to. I quit MTG years ago.

[Sir Sapphire the 3rd]

Seriously HOW HARD IS 500?

Not hard at all... just annoying and unnecessary.

King Spam, how many of your 4500 posts are devoted to quality MTG related strategy?

I guess I just don't equate quantity with quality.

I am here for the community and the people I enjoy talking to. I quit MTG years ago.

I am also another who quit the game but still enjoy the aspects of the game and the
community it can have.

[Second Harkius]

Seriously HOW HARD IS 500?

So instead of having 2000 people posting 10 inane things a day, you'll have 200 people posting 100 inane things a day - that's not a step up.

That's a Slippery Slope.

[Second Harkius]

I guess we could try "Hey, no trade rules at all," but if you come to us after getting ripped, we'll direct you to this thread.

[Second Harkius]

Like if you propose a better set of trade rules, like I have said before in this thread, let us know.

[Second Harkius]

But if you want a forum with 0 rules because any rules infringe on your awesome entitlements as a poster, you will not find that here, on mtgs, on SCG, on TCGplayer, on Pojo, really anywhere.

[redthirst]

I've been trading online for a decade and have been ripped off... maybe once? I don't really remember because it was a long time ago.

Check feedback, don't trade with people with little-to-no feedback, don't ship/pay first unless they have a lot of feedback, and if there's a question either insist on a 3rd party for the transaction or don't trade.

It's not that hard.

Also, I did post up trade rules... they're on the first page.

[Sir Sapphire the 3rd]

I think IF the forum is made for trades It stays hidden to anyone that doesn't have 500+
And the rule should be 500+ Then you can create your own thread.

And that's basicly all.

[Thrillho]

instead of instigating each other some more, i have an idea that bounces off of the voucher system: why not make the person vouching for the trader be a required 3rd party trader?

[Second Harkius]

here comes Azrael to mollify us with his words.

[Tom Servo]

I just want to repeat that I'm all for some sort of requirement that makes a potential trader establish themselves as a part of the community before they are allowed to trade in our currently non-existent trade forum. 500 or 1000 will still be a long way off for me yet, and I don't ever trade online, but I would be more inclined to try with the type of system we're proposing. Of course it won't be perfect, but we're not about perfection.

I would just like for people that want to trade to also want to be here for the site, whatever that means to them, instead of being here solely because they want our cards.

And I don't think anyone is worried about FoS, honestly. It's just if we do this, we'll have to do it in a way that we won't have to revisit when we get newer people. Clan trades are fine with me as long as it's just understood that DTR isn't responsible on the off chance something goes wrong. I just
think that a post requirement for an official trade forum would be the best deterrent for the trade and run people.

My only other suggestion is to make it a hidden sub and all that stuff.

[Tom Servo]

I guess we could try "Hey, no trade rules at all," but if you come to us after getting ripped, we'll direct you to this thread.

instead of instigating each other some more, i have an idea that bounces off of the voucher system: why not make the person vouching for the trader be a required 3rd party trader?

I like both of these suggestions as alternatives.