Primer: R/w/x Aggro

[GodzillaAteMe]

Hey all; I have a Standard tournament tonight for a box of BNG and was thinking of running the R/W tokens list, except with Ash Zealots instead of Young Pyromancers. I expect more than a few U/W control decks as well as a lot of Mono Black out there tonight. Thoughts?

[magicdownunder]

Pedros recommends Ash over YP$, I havn't played the list but app. that is a good idea.

IMO RW Token is best for an aggro meta... not control (Lack of Cheap Threats and SBD) or Bx (lack of Chains MD, Cheap Threats)... your at the mercy of discard vs Bx Devotion esp. G2 when they bring in duress, while Control doesn't care about Token since they have Jace - combined that with the build slow speed your just giving them time to build a critical mass of CA.

App. the list does poorly vs Gr/Rg as well due to trample.

[GodzillaAteMe]

What would you recommend for a control meta? I was thinking either the tokens list or your "Boros Burn" list. I expect a few R/G monsters there too.

[magicdownunder]

I would take the traditional Boros Aggro list (eight 1-drops) vs Control and Bx the only problem is the horrible G1 vs Red, Green and Blue.

In a mix meta I'll take either "Big Burn" or "Almost Boros Burn (Lazer's list)" if you never played either list before, I'll recommend "Almost Boros Burn (Lazer's list)" only because the "sequencing" and "scry" decisions almost needs to be spot on to make the "Big Burn" list run well. I prefer "Big Burn" but its not a deck to take into a large event without practice.

[LP, of the Fires]

I randomly played a couple games with MDU's big burn list and it was definitely a treat. Hardest thing to do in that deck is play chandra.

[GodzillaAteMe]

Thanks for the help guys, hopefully have a good report soon!

[DriftingLifted]

Match 3:
...he wasn't able to stabilise although he did Lifebane Zombie my chains away and kept me on my toes for a Desecration Demon

Did I read this wrong or he kinda cheated?

Whoops nope didn't read wrong. But I misremembered, he lifebane into thoughtseize later for the chains I believe.

On that note, 4-0'd FNM tonight, though a few of the regular heavy hitters were absent, probably burnt out from the GP. 2-0 in games for 4 matches, but the last was a split for first that I played out. Mono B, R/W Devotion, Mono B and a very fun R/B aggro in the final.
I'm going to miss turn 1 Cackler into ash zealot for 4 once bile blight and BotG removal comes out

[magicdownunder]

If possible can you guys who still have interest in the Rw archetype post-BnG let me know (just post here)? Also if you could post your rough draft ideas, that would be great as well (it will be hard for me to make major contribution until BnG get released on MTGO).

[LaZerBurn]

I'm still interested but you already know that

[Aodh]

I took burn-dragons to FNM last night. Just a four-round thing with pay-out to 3+ winners. Went 4-0 against: mirror (2-1), UW control (2-0), Maze's End (2-0), and MBD (2-1).

4 dragons, 4 phoenixes, 4 pyromancers, 3 Chandras, 25 lands, and burn.

[dauntless268]

@MDU:

I remain interested, but am slight at a loss as to where to take this deck to . I can get behind dropping Ash to Run Temple of Silence and up the Helix count to 4 (which shouldn't surprise you ) and I must say on second or third thought I really like your idea to run shock and accept 1 for 2ing yourself to get rid of a fattie that makes it thorugh our first line of Defense (aka Chained to the Rocks ).

But I'm generally concerned about the Black Devo matchup, mainly because Assemble, which has always been a little on the slow side, for me has lost a lot of its appeal in the face of BB and potentially Drown. I know they can't stop it forever, but
they also don't need to. I'm also unsure about Cackler. I know every burn list out there runs him, but for me it seems better against Ux and maybe even Rx Devo than against Bx where I'm hard pressed to see why he would ever cause more than 2 damage before he dies. OK, 1 less removal for Phoenix I guess

One way would be to see if the deck can afford to run Spike Jester, something like

[deck]Black Burn[/deck]

10 Scrylands is a lot, and 9 Shocklands as well, but given that we play 4 Helix we can make up for lifeloss and the
one thing we really want to do with this deck is cast Chandra's Phoenix on t3, so maybe digging for it with Temple of Malice isn't the worst thing in the world. Going Rwb would give us more removal options post-board, which against Black Devo in turn could make Assemble better (keeps their creatures at bay longer).

Really would need to test it, maybe it's just not good.

[magicdownunder]

I view Assemble the Legions as Plan B, I usually beat them via wearing away at them slowly with burns and creatures.

I'm not against running 12+ Tap lands, esp. if you remove the 1-drops, what I don't like however is the 9x Shock lands - its basically providing Ux, Rx and Gx list free wins.

P.S. You shouldn't be controlling the control deck, they have lifegain and card-draw so they'll just beat us with the home-ground advantage - your also a burn deck so packing your list with removal = less stream = higher chance they'll recover.

[dauntless268]

No way we can control Bx devotion, but I wouldn't mind swapping out 2 shocks for 2 Dark Betrayal to buy us a little more time against Demon&Friends... But. I haven't really thought about a SB so no idea if there is even room...

You're probably right that Temples >> Shocklands. However my main concern with the build above would be consistency (only 11 sources of white and black, 11 "Chain" Lands, all of which we need for the deck to function) not the extra 4 shocklands... Compared to the Pile List we run an extra 2 Helix...

[poppa_f]

Maybe Purphoros out of the board could be a good hedge against black, in the sense that the ETB damage from Assemble will mitigate the tokens all getting removed.

I wonder also if ratchet bomb could be useful for that matchup. Tick it up to 3 counters as insurance against pack rat, but also catches underworld connections and can tick up to 4 if DD is beating down.

[LaZerBurn]

I'm going to run 2 Temple Of Abandon and 2 Temple Of Silence in the Big Burn, I keep trying to tap ToS for Red and it just won't comply Or maybe 2 Temple Of Enlightenment and 2 Temple Of Malice for psych warfare

[poppa_f]

I noticed Conley Woods wrote a piece for tcg player this week discussing some different big boros decks: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=11624

[Lightning_Dolt]

I noticed Conley Woods wrote a piece for tcg player this week discussing some different big boros decks: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=11624

For every one Soul Sisters, he comes out with a thousand piles...lol

[DerWille]

His final list looked really sloppy. 4 BTE with no cards to chain into? What?

[poppa_f]

I've been toying with a BotG deck that is along similar lines to Pyroskies (smaller curve + early beatdown + late game reach). The idea is that you get a lot of creatures and enchantments on to the board via YP/Brimaz tokens, chained and mutavault, then suit up a phoenix (or Brimaz / Soldier of the Pantheon depending on board state) with Eidolon of Countless Battles. Even if they have removal then the Eidolon drops off and is still huge. Gods Willing can help dodge removal or set up for an alpha strike:

[deck]Land (23)
2x Boros Guildgate
5x Mountain
4x Mutavault
4x Plains
4x Sacred Foundry
4x Temple of Triumph

Creature (20)
4x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
4x Chandra's Phoenix
4x Eidolon of Countless Battles
4x Soldier of the Pantheon
4x Young Pyromancer

Sorcery (2)
2x Mizzium Mortars

Instant (10)
2x Gods Willing
4x Lightning Strike
4x Magma Jet

Enchantment (3)
3x Chained to the Rocks

nPlaneswalker (2)
2x Chandra, Pyromaster[/deck]

[Lightning_Dolt]

I think you're going to have mana issues.

[Valdarith]

Yeah, you definitely can't afford to run the Mutavaults, and even then your mana will be shaky at best.

[magicdownunder]

@poppa_f: It looks decent enough (I would cut 3x Mountains, 1x Vaults and add 4x Plains), are you building your list to fight against Red? I'm not sure what advantages this build will provide you against Ux or Bx compared to Rw.

[zemanjaski]

I'm still looking in from time to time, but much like LP, sick of playing fair magic.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Z, could you transfer control of the thread over to MDU with your mod powers? Thanks

[poppa_f]

@poppa_f: It looks decent enough (I would cut 3x Mountains, 1x Vaults and add 4x Plains), are you building your list to fight against Red? I'm not sure what advantages this build will provide you against Ux or Bx compared to Rw.

It's not a specific metagame play, I just want to see if Brimaz and Eidolon can work in the burn shell, as they both look like pretty sweet cards. I'm going to proxy up a version of the dec to try at the pre-release I'm going to today

I think the challenge we have for the meta post BotG is how to deal with the new black sweepers. Either going even bigger, and mainly playing cards that dodge it or recur (SBD, new and old
phoenixes, gods, planeswalkers) or go the other way and play less creatures and more burn (it looks like your decks are moving in that direction anyway).

It's going to be interesting to see if mono-U remains as popular, as the sweepers are bad news for them as well.

[magicdownunder]

Why do you believe Drown is a problem for Ux Devotion? It does nothing, esp. post board when Tide binder disappear.

@dauntless268: I'll see what I can cook up with Rwb Burn, I'll love to run some RB God MD

[poppa_f]

It means they get 2-4-1'd more often (the flyers and MoW all get hit by it), but I guess that isn't the end of the world for them

[LaZerBurn]

I'm still looking in from time to time, but much like LP, sick of playing fair magic.

@Z - if you're in one of your happy, kind, wisdom sharing moods (some blend of 2 and 6 I guess) when you read this can you type a couple of lines on what you mean by fair MTG please? I'm still only a few months back into the game and quite often things that I suspect are common knowledge and obvious to you all aren't to me

[magicdownunder]

[deck=MDU's Almost Dega burn]Lands 23
5 Mountain
4 Temple of Malice
4 Temple of Silence
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Sacred Foundry
2 Blood Crypt

Creature 18
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Spike Jester
4 Chandra's Phoenix
3 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
2 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Flame-Wreathed Phoenix

Spells 19
4 Lightning Strike
4 Shock
3 Magma Jet
3 Dreadbore
3 Warleader's Helix
2 Chained to the Rocks

Sideboard 15
1 Flame-Wreathed Phoenix
1 Chained to the Rocks
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Dark Betrayal
2 Boros Charm
2 Doom blade
3 Skullcrack[/deck]
Draft #1 - please help improve it, thanks.

@Z - if you're in one of your happy, kind, wisdom sharing moods (some blend of 2 and 6 I guess) when you read this can you type a couple of lines
on what you mean by fair MTG please? I'm still only a few months back into the game and quite often things that I suspect are common knowledge and obvious to you all aren't to me

Boros Aggro would be considered "fair", 8-Post Storm in pauper is an example of something "unfair" does that help? (Current standard is very fair, you can cheat via dredge but that list is horrible and you can do some nasty stuff with Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx - but devotion as an mechanic promotes synergy with is quite interactive so its hard to complain)

[dauntless268]

Where's the god?

[LP, of the Fires]

Fair implies doing normal things. Decks that attack, block, cast creatures, play removal, etc. are playing fair. Interacting with your opponent is fair.

Unfair is making 6 mana on turn 3 with your red deck, then 11 on turn.

Unfair is playing once creature that makes 12 power appear.

Unfair =/= best, it's just a different way of playing. For instance, All the RW decks with Chandra's phoenix and lightning strike in them are fair decks, but they're also very good.

Looked at another way, the less your cards give a shit about your opponents cards, the less fair your deck is. Nothing in standard currently is truly unfair, but everythings relative.

[Pedros]

[deck=MDU's Almost Dega burn]Lands 23
5 Mountain
4 Temple of Malice
4 Temple of Silence
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Sacred Foundry
2 Blood Crypt

Creature 18
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Spike Jester
4 Chandra's Phoenix
3 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
2 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Flame-Wreathed Phoenix

Spells 19
4 Lightning Strike
4 Shock
3 Magma Jet
3 Dreadbore
3 Warleader's Helix
2 Chained to the Rocks

Sideboard 15
1 Flame-Wreathed Phoenix
1 Chained to the Rocks
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Dark Betrayal
2 Boros Charm
2 Doom blade
3 Skullcrack[/deck]
Draft #1 - please help improve it, thanks.

@Z - if you're in one of your happy, kind, wisdom sharing moods (some blend of 2 and 6 I guess) when you read this can you type a couple of lines on what you mean by fair MTG please? I'm still only a few months back into the game and quite often things that I suspect are common knowledge and obvious to you all aren't to me

Boros Aggro would be considered "fair", 8-Post Storm in pauper is an example of something "unfair" does that help? (Current standard is very fair, you can cheat via dredge but that list is horrible and you can do some nasty stuff with Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx - but devotion as an mechanic promotes synergy with is quite interactive so its hard to complain)

Sorry MDU, but I dont really like this deck. It doesnt seem good vs UW Control and Mono Black, 2 of 3 best decks in a format (plus It also doesnt look amazing vs mono blue
- 2 removal for master, and the one that can be bounced for blowouts).

First of all, playing cacklers with only 11 ways to cast in on turn 1 is too greedy. Sometimes it might work, however not always. As Lazerburn pointed out, you also have only 11 mountains for your chains.
Second, I dont see how Shock will be good vs a field, especially without YP to produce tokens with it.
I dont understand Split of removals. Why 4 Shocks, 3 Jets, 2 Chains and 3 dreadbores? And 3 helixes?

Personaly, If I see deck with 12 scry lands I would see it want to go midrange. This deck wants to go agro, go under mono black and uw control. I dont see how it would do with such a manabase.

[magicdownunder]

I'm not sure why you believe this is weak to UW and Bx since I think it actually really strong against those two builds (heaps of haste creatures which dodge most removal + Burn on top), Ux Devotion can be "troubling" with MoW but I don't usually lose to MoW esp. if all the other creatures are dead...

In regards to Shock I think you need to play burn more in Standard, Shock is just concession too large creatures which dodge WLH and LS - it also does damage

This list is just an early draft based on my success with the Big Burn/Almost burn deck which I've used to beat Bx, Ux and UW countless times (I even have it on video....). I'll put together a non-BnG version and try it out when I have time.

I do however value others opinions it may not be a list for you just like how Token, UW and Devotion isn't a list for me, I
welcome any suggestion though.

[zemanjaski]

Z, could you transfer control of the thread over to MDU with your mod powers? Thanks

Asking Zem to mod is an infraction

[Lightning_Dolt]

Wut?

[Valdarith]

Sarcasm.

[LaZerBurn]

[deck=MDU's Almost Dega burn]Lands 23
5 Mountain
4 Temple of Malice
4 Temple of Silence
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Sacred Foundry
2 Blood Crypt

Creature 18
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Spike Jester
4 Chandra's Phoenix
3 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
2 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Flame-Wreathed Phoenix

Spells 19
4 Lightning Strike
4 Shock
3 Magma Jet
3 Dreadbore
3 Warleader's Helix
2 Chained to the Rocks

Sideboard 15
1 Flame-Wreathed Phoenix
1 Chained to the Rocks
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Dark Betrayal
2 Boros Charm
2 Doom blade
3 Skullcrack[/deck]
Draft #1 - please help improve it, thanks.

First thoughts before I go play with a pre BNG version - I REALLY like the list I'm not thrilled about the mana-base (too many scry/CIPT lands for my tastes) though I'm sure it can be tweaked to suit - LP mentions it here and suggests a Mutavault which always pleases me I'm greedy with my mana though and with only 2 SBD 23 seems good to me.

I really like the sheer VOLUME of removal options we have available and tweaking should be pretty simple to keep up with the meta. To my surprise I'm heretically wondering if we need Chains at all with B giving us so many removal options? I'd also really like to see Mogis in the 75 Once I've had chance to run the list I'll find a way to squeeze him in

While
I agree with Pedros about the mana for Cackler the deck looks good against UW to me - Cackler, haste, recursion, Dread hits PW's, DBlade/Mizz for Archangel in the SB. Looks good against B too - Cackler, haste and burn with Dark Betrayal and Skullcrack in the SB. U isn't going to be great G1 but I don't think it's terrible. Hopefully U will vanish in the new meta anyway

Thanks MDU, once more you've revitalised my MTG world I'm off to put this together now

P.S. - @MDU and LP - yep that makes sense I've played my share of unfair MTG in my time - Academy, Whale Bomb, Memory Jar, High Tide - and while it's fun I actually prefer playing fair MTG.

[Valdarith]

I feel like more Shock than Magma Jet is a mistake. I also want another Stormbreath Dragon and land.

You only have 11 untapped lands that can cast Cackler on turn one. That's very bad. Either cut some scrylands or cut Cackler for a turn two play like Ash Zealot.

I also can't help but feel the deck wants a couple of Chandra mainboard.

[poppa_f]

Went 5-0 at the BotG pre-release

All I can say is Fellhide Spiritbinder is an absolute beating in Limited. Ended up choosing red, which worked out pretty well as I had searing blood, lightning strike and Bolt of Keranos, plus two Time to Feed, on top of a load of a nice curve of R/G creatures.

Gave the new proxied Boros list a try-out against my mate's Rakdos list and crushed him. Eidolon of Countless battles is the real deal, suited up a phoenix on turn 5 and was swinging for 7 damage already. Each time you chain something or spawn a token it gets bigger and even if they kill the phoenix then the Eidolon lives on. Will give it a proper run out at the LGS standard week after next.

[dauntless268]

Thanks MDU for taking the Dega idea a step further. Re: the manabase, I think with running 5 spells that require white and 10 that require black (plus at least 4 black spells that you ideally want to cast t2), you may well reverse the Foundry / Blood Crypt Count. Exchanging a Temple for a Godless Shrine would make t1 Cackler easier to cast. You may also consider exchanging 1 Dreadbore for an Ultimate Price, which might help against SBD while leaving you still enough t2 removal for Specter.

Personally, I would favor a simpler deck closer to your original Burn List for Dega. If we play with a ton of Scrylands and no Muta's, we might as well be greedy with the Manabase, for example:

[deck]
Lands 24
5 Mountain
4 Temple of Malice
4 Temple of Silence
3 Temple of Triumph
1 Godless Shrine
3 Sacred Foundry
4 Blood Crypt

Creatures 12
4 Spike Jester
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Stormbreath Dragon

Burn 16
4 Shock
4
Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
4 Warleader's Helix

Terrors 6
2 Chained to the Rocks
2 Dreadbore
2 Ultimate Price

Planeswalker 2
2 Chandra, Pyromaster

Sideboard 15
2 Assemble the Legions
2 Flame-Wreathed Phoenix
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Dark Betrayal
2 Boros Charm
2 Doom blade
3 Skullcrack [/deck]

EDIT: For Mogis, I'd prefer a purely RB deck, Ideally one that can run Spike Jester and Ash Zealot together...