Dies to Removal

Ahh gotcha, I'll remove the reddit content, shoulda realized there's some other implications for you. My sincere apologies if it's a problem.

Sorry meant to put GW/Naya Hexproof

GW Aggro is just a race. Unflinching Courage sucks tho!

G/W is really slow for an aggro deck which should make the matchup pretty manageable indeed.

Whether they're beatable or not, they're not real meta-contenders and not worth wasting time talking about.

Well it is at my meta atm so I'm looking for alternatives to beat it

I haven't gotten a large enough sample of matches to be sure, but I'd like to talk about them manabase.

Red sources vs. Mutavault
It's been mentioned that 19 red sources is fine for the deck, but doesn't Frank Karsten say 20 red sources for RR 2 drops? (http://www.channelfireball.com/articles ... ur-spells/. Getting Ash Zealot into play ASAP seems pretty clutch, and I can imagine how nice it is to Searing Blood a T2 Pack Rat on the play (for example). Like I say, I haven't got enough matches under my belt, but I don't think it's too far out to suggest 3 Vaults and 20 red sources? 24 land seems too much, and maybe Mutavault is too important. This helps Spark Trooper out of the board?

White sources vs. Mountains/CIPT
The manabase isn't too greedy
for white, but I feel like I'd rather take a CIPT land on T1, 3, or 5+ (everything is like 2CMC in this deck) than be screwed for white, or not be able to unload Boros Charms fast enough. Have 4 Guildgates ever been tested? There's more though, playing 4 Guildgates and 4 Mutavault means there's 11 Mountains in the deck, how concerned are we about Chained to the Rocks?

I feel like I'm being too conservative, and it's hard to argue with results.

Anyone have a link to Zem's feature match? In trying to look up GP Melbourne coverage, I can only find GP Barcelona footage...

19's fine for red mana in this deck not just because it's close enough to acceptably consistent for Ash Zealot, but because turn 1 muta is often a very good play since you're virtually getting free damage in.

Well it is at my meta atm so I'm looking for alternatives to beat it

You cannot beat Hexproof.

Dont dilute the deck for answers for a deck that crushes us regardless!

Anyone have a link to Zem's feature match? In trying to look up GP Melbourne coverage, I can only find GP Barcelona footage...

You can find it here, GP Melbourne round 10: http://mtgcoverage.com, sorrry no direct twitch link, I'm on my phone

Anyone have a link to Zem's feature match? In trying to look up GP Melbourne coverage, I can only find GP Barcelona footage...

You can find it here, GP Melbourne round 10: http://mtgcoverage.com, sorrry no direct twitch link, I'm on my phone

http://www.twitch.tv/magic/b/507463569?t=6m

Well it is at my meta atm so I'm looking for alternatives to beat it

You cannot beat Hexproof.

Dont dilute the deck for answers for a deck that crushes us regardless!

I meant G/W aggro

My main deck is bad against it

so I wanted to see how burn would fare

The manabase is the thing that I had problems with on Friday, and it was actually less the colors and more the actual cards, multiple games I fell behind keeping a 3 land hand + chained but never finding an actual mountain SON OF A BITCH

just realized that Sacred Foundry counts as a mountain so you can chain onto your foundry. . .fuck. RTFC. Coulda prolly went 2-1 instead of 1-2 . . .

Ya, we just take the loss for hexproof and move on. I have won a total of 2 games against that deck though. ITS NOT IMPOSSIBLE!!! Lol. Ok it really is, but there's times they lose to themselves =D. The s/b is so tight right now, that we can't really mess with anything. Until the meta drastically shifts, (unless zem has found something in his extensive CFB testingzzz), the 75 is about as tightly tuned as possible.

No I got nothing. I just sigh and move on. I am 0-4 in matches, but I think I won a game in every set, so eventually I should snag a match.

I haven't gotten a large enough sample of matches to be sure, but I'd like to talk about them manabase.

Red sources vs. Mutavault
It's been mentioned that 19 red sources is fine for the deck, but doesn't Frank Karsten say 20 red sources for RR 2 drops? (http://www.channelfireball.com/articles ... ur-spells/. Getting Ash Zealot into play ASAP seems pretty clutch, and I can imagine how nice it is to Searing Blood a T2 Pack Rat on the play (for example). Like I say, I haven't got enough matches under my belt, but I don't think it's too far out to suggest 3 Vaults and 20 red sources? 24 land seems too much, and maybe
Mutavault is too important. This helps Spark Trooper out of the board?

White sources vs. Mountains/CIPT
The manabase isn't too greedy for white, but I feel like I'd rather take a CIPT land on T1, 3, or 5+ (everything is like 2CMC in this deck) than be screwed for white, or not be able to unload Boros Charms fast enough. Have 4 Guildgates ever been tested? There's more though, playing 4 Guildgates and 4 Mutavault means there's 11 Mountains in the deck, how concerned are we about Chained to the Rocks?

I feel like I'm being too conservative, and it's hard to argue with results.

Frank Karsten himself told me 19 (I originally had 18), though upon reflection that was probably more of "run an extra red source are you insane?". I can see an argument for a 20th, I do sometimes get stuck on red. Thing is you really only need 1 Mutavault, and it usually* isn't doing anything until Turn 4+.

Let's test +1 mountain, -1 mutavault for a bit
guys

I also don't HATE the idea of 3 Guildgates (I ran that last week and was happy with it). 4 I think is pushing it too far, although yes, of course, we would LOVE 12 white sources.

Ive run 3 guildgates, replacing one mountain. It works ok, I just need an untapped source so badly t2 so often that I was happy to put the mountain back in. Generally you can stagger your draws ok, but t2 is so important to hit and I too often got two tapped lands in opening hand.

I believe 19 vs 20 red sources for RR on turn two is statistically insignificant. Karstens' numbers are you need 20 to have a 90% chance to cast AZ (or searing blood) on turn 2 with a particular set of automulligan rules.

19 might drop you to 88% or add a few mulligans / 100 hands? Probably more significantly, 4 scry lands probably counts as ~1 extra red source (0.8 according his article, but not sure how rigorous 0.2 souces/scry is. Magma jet doesn't count for AZ because I don't think we can cast it and still get a 2nd red on turn 2. Certainly helps for Phoenix and various T3+ white spells.

If someone wants me to run some more rigorous numbers I can ... don't want to be a taker

Like Toddington said, the 4th Muta is probably the "weakest link" in the mana base.

Seems so obvious after it's said... To me i've found drawing too many mutas to be a problem color-wise. I hate an opening 7 with 2 mutas. 2-3 gates, 9-10 mtns, 4 temples, 4 sacreds and 3 mutas actually do look better, and probably more consistent.

Like always guys, please test, keep data and notes.

I am going to make my data and notes public here after the weekend (so, semi-public I guess).

Whether they're beatable or not, they're not real meta-contenders and not worth wasting time talking about.

I hope the folks at MOCS1 believe so as well....

It's worth noting that all of my opinions come from living in meatspace.

Oh see, this is my favourite part of deck building. We're set on 59/60 cards, so we get to discuss what is the perfect 60th And there isn't a clear answer either, there are compelling arguments either way.

I was literally in the middle of posting that Z. When you're playing with the last 2 lands in your deck, you know you've got something beautiful on your hands.

Burning Earth is very powerful when you're ahead on board, but this deck often isn't. Eg: you don't want to tap out for BE if they have a Polukranos out. I have also found that it is a better strategy to just play as an instant speed deck against control; the efficiency of your spells let's you bully them for a long time, and you can take over the game that way more successfully imo.

So either:

A:
3 Boros Guildgate
9 Mountain
3 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph

More white mana is very nice. The deck would be better able to make RR on two than currently, but would have slightly weaker sequencing otherwise (1 fewer untapped source).

OR

B:
2 Boros Guildgate
10 Mountain
3 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph

This mana base sequences very well (more untapped sources) and has more ability to Turn 1 a Firedrinker Satyr (such a big game).

Discuss.

B. Live dangerously.

I think I miss Firedancer. Or maybe I just really want more creatures MD.

Ah yes, Cuban B.

I say B. Zem would you consider replacing one or both of the Boros Guildgates with a Temple of Silence? You get your extra white source and that one extra scry land can be useful. Your already tapped for a guild gate, might as well scry. Instead of guild gates, I run 2 Temple of Silence and I don't have a problem at all.

You can't cut red sources. We're discussing ADDING red sources.

My inclination is A; a Guildgate is an extra Turn 1 play which is appealing and an 11th white source improves the overall consistency of the deck. I have found that 13 Mountains is fine for chained to the rocks and it is only very slightly too few for Firedrinker Satyr.

And if you're saying B, make an argument.

I say B. Zem would you consider replacing one or both of the Boros Guildgates with a Temple of Silence? You get your extra white source and that one extra scry land can be useful. Your already tapped for a guild gate, might as well scry. Instead of guild gates, I run 2 Temple of Silence and I don't have a problem at all.

We have nothing to spend black mana on. Scry 1 is not worth mana screwing yourself.

A seems better, but I wish we had more mana sinks to justify running more land. This deck really wants 14 untapped red sources, 20 red sources, 12 white sources, and 4 Mutavault.

A provides 13 / 20 / 11 / 3 and B provides 14 / 20 / 10 / 3.

Looks like A emphasizes our white spells (of which there are 8-10, usually) and B our Firedrinker Satyrs (only 4).

My apologies, I misread. I only own 2 Mutavaults currently, so I don't have that problem. I did find myself short on white mana. That's why I used the scry lands. Nothing worse than having two sexy Boros Charms in hand with only one white source. I also still run Toil/Trouble in my side board.

B seems better, but I wish we had more mana sinks to justify running more land. This deck really wants 14 untapped red sources, 20 red sources, 12 white sources, and 4 Mutavault.

Haha, yes indeed, that would be perfect. This really highlights how much weaker mana is in the current format.

After breaking it down, I've decided that A is actually better.

I sent a message detailing our predicament to a few respected players, will report back their comments.

B seems better, but I wish we had more mana sinks to justify running more land. This deck really wants 14 untapped red sources, 20 red sources, 12 white sources, and 4 Mutavault.

Haha, yes indeed, that would be perfect. This really highlights how much weaker mana is in the current format.

That's what I've been trying to say since Theros was spoiled. I really hate cipt lands.

Irrationally so